Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:17 AM - Re: In flight Adjustable Trim (Dana Hague)
2. 04:51 AM - Re: In flight Adjustable Trim (zeprep251@AOL.COM)
3. 06:11 AM - Re: In flight Adjustable Trim (Ellery Batchelder Jr)
4. 06:22 AM - Re: In flight Adjustable Trim (John Hauck)
5. 07:03 AM - Re: Re: In flight Adjustable Trim (Richard Girard)
6. 07:39 AM - Re: Re: In flight Adjustable Trim (Sky Biker Richarson)
7. 08:29 AM - Re: In flight Adjustable Trim (Eugene Zimmerman)
8. 08:32 AM - Re: Yamaha 4 stroke on Kolb (Jason Omelchuck)
9. 08:45 AM - Re: Re: In flight Adjustable Trim (John Hauck)
10. 08:48 AM - Re: Re: Yamaha 4 stroke on Kolb (John Hauck)
11. 08:53 AM - Re: Re: In flight Adjustable Trim (Sky Biker Richarson)
12. 08:59 AM - Re: Yamaha 4 stroke on Kolb (Eugene Zimmerman)
13. 09:14 AM - Re: Re: Yamaha 4 stroke on Kolb (John Hauck)
14. 09:53 AM - Re: Re: Crossed Fingers on purchase (jerb)
15. 10:12 AM - Re: Re: Crossed Fingers on purchase (Herb)
16. 10:35 AM - Heat Treating Steel (Mike Welch)
17. 11:19 AM - Re: New alternate engine on my MKIII (Jason Omelchuck)
18. 11:19 AM - Re: Heat Treating Steel (Eugene Zimmerman)
19. 11:22 AM - Re: Yamaha 4 stroke on Kolb (Jason Omelchuck)
20. 11:58 AM - Re: Heat Treating Steel (Mike Welch)
21. 12:40 PM - Re: Re: In flight Adjustable Trim (Ellery Batchelder Jr)
22. 12:52 PM - Re: Re: Yamaha 4 stroke on Kolb (Ellery Batchelder Jr)
23. 01:02 PM - Re: In flight Adjustable Trim (Richard Pike)
24. 02:00 PM - Re: Yamaha 4 stroke on Kolb (Jason Omelchuck)
25. 02:17 PM - Re: Heat Treating Steel (robert bean)
26. 02:22 PM - Re: Re: New alternate engine on my MKIII (John Hauck)
27. 02:30 PM - Re: Heat Treating Steel (John Hauck)
28. 02:34 PM - Re: Re: New alternate engine on my MKIII (John Hauck)
29. 02:47 PM - Re: Re: Yamaha 4 stroke on Kolb (John Hauck)
30. 02:54 PM - Re: Re: Yamaha 4 stroke on Kolb (John Hauck)
31. 04:14 PM - Re: air restart... (lucien)
32. 07:22 PM - Re: Re: In flight Adjustable Trim (Ellery Batchelder Jr)
33. 10:03 PM - Valley Engineering Big-Twin - Any one flying with one? (jerb)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: In flight Adjustable Trim |
I added prebent aluminum tabs to my UltraStar to trim for a slow cruise,
then a bungee system to add more down elevator for normal cruise, and to
compensate as fuel burns:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/flyparafan/Kolb/elevator_trim.jpg
When I move the fuel tanks from in front of to behind the seat I'm hoping I
can back off on one or both of the tabs, but I'll keep the bungee
arrangement for inflight adjustment.
-Dana
--
The citizens of the United States are getting the government they
deserve. The problem is that I'm also getting the government they deserve.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: In flight Adjustable Trim |
Gene,
Using your picture as a guide,it appears that reflexing the ailerons might
be helpful in reducing that forward pitch tendency.
G.Aman
-----Original Message-----
From: Eugene Zimmerman <etzimm@gmail.com>
Sent: Tue, Feb 16, 2010 1:45 pm
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: In flight Adjustable Trim
Ellery,
My experience at pitch trimming the kolb plane using the horizontal stabil
izers has been totally unsatisfactory. I believe the reason for this is be
cause of the specific triangular shape of stab which reduces the surface
area of the stab to near zero at outer the point of the stab.
On my plane I needed more nose up trim, so I tried lowering the leading
edge of the stab. The result was totally unsatisfactory. It merely made
the elevator have a natural downward deflection to remain aligned with
the air flow as it passed over the stab. It actually now required as much
or even more back stick pressure to keep the nose up and it was less eff
icient because the stab and the elevator were now misaligned with an oppo
site camber for the necessary direction control force to raise the nose.
I attached an in-flight picture where this opposite camber of the stab &
elevator to produce downward force of the tail can be seen.
Against all intuition I then raised the leading edge of the horizontal st
ab to align with the natural inflight position elevator and much to my ama
zement it improved the trim greatly.
I did eventually add an in-flight adjustable tab to the elevator which is
much more effective and efficient at aerodynamically changing pitch trim,
though I'm not saying it is better than adjustable spring tension to the
mechanical linkage of the stock kolb elevator.
Merely sharing my experience.
Gene Z
On Feb 15, 2010, at 8:51 PM, Ellery Batchelder Jr wrote:
Has anyone on the list ever thought of designing something to adjust the
horizontal stabilizers like on a cub to trim a Kolb it just makes more se
nse to me because it would be a positive trim and not make more drag , the
spring system just doesn't work as great as it should for me the air temp
s change so much the springs are not consistent enough for me.
I rebuilt the elevators on my old firestar a few years ago and built a inf
light trim tab into one of the elevators with great results, but that wou
ld make more drag than a stabilizer trim system what are your opinions ?
The reason I ask, I am working on a electric project to do just this on a
Kolb Mk3 it might be a waste of my time but I have to try it anyway than
ks for your time and input.
Ellery Batchelder Jr.
Kolb Mk3C
N213, 582 Rotax
Garmin AERA
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: In flight Adjustable Trim |
Nice looking ultrastar you have there but theres quite a difference from
that to a MK3 I just want a more sufisticated way of triming my plane th
an a bungie
Ellery Batchelder Jr.
-----Original Message-----
From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague@comcast.net>
Sent: Wed, Feb 17, 2010 7:01 am
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: In flight Adjustable Trim
I added prebent aluminum tabs to my UltraStar to trim for a slow cruise,
then a bungee system to add more down elevator for normal cruise, and to
compensate as fuel burns:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/flyparafan/Kolb/elevator_trim.jpg
When I move the fuel tanks from in front of to behind the seat I'm hoping
I can back off on one or both of the tabs, but I'll keep the bungee arran
gement for inflight adjustment.
-Dana
--
The citizens of the United States are getting the government they deserve
. The problem is that I'm also getting the government they deserve.
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Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: In flight Adjustable Trim |
Ellery B/Gang:
I fabricated a trim wheel for forced pitch trim. Mounted it just
forward the throttle handle.
Most mkIII's need nose up trim only.
Only time my mkIII needs nose up trim is under cruise power. Lower
power settings, the aircraft is about neutral with a 12 lb Maule Tundra
Tailwheel and my main gear modification which moved the main gear
forward about 8 inches.
I use Kolb Company recommended pair of heavy springs on the up side and
a very light spring on the down side, with 1/16" aircraft cable from
springs to trim wheel/pulley.
I guess it still works. Have flown about 5 hours since I returned from
Homer's funeral 19 July 2009.
Al Gump has screwed up our global warming in Alabama. Hanging at 32F.
john hauck
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Nice looking ultrastar you have there but theres quite a difference
from that to a MK3 I just want a more sufisticated way of triming my
plane than a bungie
Ellery Batchelder Jr.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: In flight Adjustable Trim |
Ellery, Check the aileron and flap rigging, the only have to be down a
fraction of a degree to get that effect. Set the trim in the middle, fly,
then adjust rigging to get neutral trim. Worked for me.
Rick Girard
On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 5:15 PM, Ellery Batchelder Jr <elleryweld@aol.com>wrote:
> Eugene
> thanks for your input that's the kind of info I was looking for, someone
> that has tried it.
> I had my old firestar able to fly hands off long distance with a trim tab
> in the elevator I want to make my Mk3 fly as well ,if I let go of the stick
> it wants to take a dive the way it is now and I don't like it that way i
> am just trying to figure out the best way to correct it.
> *Ellery Batchelder Jr.*
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eugene Zimmerman <etzimm@gmail.com>
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tue, Feb 16, 2010 4:56 pm
> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: In flight Adjustable Trim
>
>
> Ellery,
>
> My experience at pitch trimming the kolb plane using adjustable horizontal
> stabilizers has been totally unsatisfactory. I believe the reason for this is
> because of the specific triangular shape of stab which reduces the surface area
> of the stab to near zero at outer the point of the stab.
>
> On my plane I needed more nose up trim, so I tried lowering the leading edge
of
> the stab. The result was totally unsatisfactory. It merely made the elevator
> have a natural downward deflection to remain aligned with the air flow as it
> passed over the stab. It actually now required even more back stick pressure
to
> keep the nose up and it was less efficient because the stab and the elevator
> were now misaligned with a combined camber that is opposite what is necessary
> for the downward direction of the force on the tail to raise the nose.
>
> I attached an in-flight picture where you can see this opposite camber of the
> stab & elevator necessary to produce downward force of the tail.
>
> Against all intuition I then raised the leading edge of the horizontal stab
to
> align with the natural inflight position of elevator and much to my amazement
it
> improved the trim greatly.
>
> I did eventually add an in-flight adjustable tab to the elevator which is much
> more effective and efficient at aerodynamically changing pitch trim, though I'm
> not saying it is better than adjustable spring tension to the mechanical
> linkage of the stock kolb elevator.
>
> My conclusion is that trying to use adjustable stab incidence for pitch control
> on a Kolb is ineffective and a wast of time and effort.
>
> Merely sharing my experience.
>
> Gene Z
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=286693#286693
>
>
> Attachments:
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0115_204.jpg
>
>
> ===================================
> rget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
> ===================================
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> ===================================
> _blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ===================================
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: In flight Adjustable Trim |
I had the same problem=2C flying solo I was fine hands off but duel I had t
o hold forward pressure on the stick and made landings tricky. I bought and
adjustment from Kolb ( to expensive plus needs more position holes ) but d
id the trick so long as you remember to change the pin location. I have an
elect. trim that I getting ready to install to be able to adjust for the ex
tra weight of the larger fuel tank i'm installing. I am using a boat trim i
ndicator so that I can always see where it is and adjust in flight as neede
d.
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: In flight Adjustable Trim
From: aslsa.rng@gmail.com
Ellery=2C Check the aileron and flap rigging=2C the only have to be down a
fraction of a degree to get that effect. Set the trim in the middle=2C fly
=2C then adjust rigging to get neutral trim. Worked for me.
Rick Girard
On Tue=2C Feb 16=2C 2010 at 5:15 PM=2C Ellery Batchelder Jr <elleryweld@aol
.com> wrote:
Eugene
thanks for your input that's the kind of info I was looking for=2C someone
that has tried it.
I had my old firestar able to fly hands off long distance with a trim tab i
n the elevator I want to make my Mk3 fly as well =2Cif I let go of the stic
k it wants to take a dive the way it is now and I don't like it that way i
am just trying to figure out the best way to correct it.
Ellery Batchelder Jr.
-----Original Message-----
From: Eugene Zimmerman <etzimm@gmail.com>
Sent: Tue=2C Feb 16=2C 2010 4:56 pm
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: In flight Adjustable Trim
Ellery=2C
My experience at pitch trimming the kolb plane using adjustable horizontal
stabilizers has been totally unsatisfactory. I believe the reason for this
is
because of the specific triangular shape of stab which reduces the surface
area
of the stab to near zero at outer the point of the stab.
On my plane I needed more nose up trim=2C so I tried lowering the leading
edge of
the stab. The result was totally unsatisfactory. It merely made the elevato
r
have a natural downward deflection to remain aligned with the air flow as
it
passed over the stab. It actually now required even more back stick pressu
re to
keep the nose up and it was less efficient because the stab and the elevat
or
were now misaligned with a combined camber that is opposite what is necess
ary
for the downward direction of the force on the tail to raise the nose.
I attached an in-flight picture where you can see this opposite camber of t
he
stab & elevator necessary to produce downward force of the tail.
Against all intuition I then raised the leading edge of the horizontal sta
b to
align with the natural inflight position of elevator and much to my amazeme
nt it
improved the trim greatly.
I did eventually add an in-flight adjustable tab to the elevator which is m
uch
more effective and efficient at aerodynamically changing pitch trim=2C thou
gh I'm
not saying it is better than adjustable spring tension to the mechanical
linkage of the stock kolb elevator.
My conclusion is that trying to use adjustable stab incidence for pitch con
trol
on a Kolb is ineffective and a wast of time and effort.
Merely sharing my experience.
Gene Z
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=286693#286693
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0115_204.jpg
rget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: In flight Adjustable Trim |
Kolb pilot friends,
Yes, pitch trim may be adjusted via aileron rigging ,,,, but normally not while
in-flight. This means the airplane is ideally trimmed for only one specific
airspeed, power setting, and payload.
Change any one of these conditions and the airplane becomes out of trim again.
Hence the convenience of having adjustable in-flight pitch trim.
Gene Z
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=286806#286806
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Yamaha 4 stroke on Kolb |
Hello Tony,
I am the fellow with the Yamaha on my MKIII. Last summer I put about 40 hours
on it and am happy with the way it ran. Right now my airplane is in the shop
getting its new steel landing gear (upgrade not accident). I should get the legs
back from the heat treater on Friday. Last summer I was just feeling the
engine out and never ventured further than 100 miles from home. This summer I
hope to expand my horizons and actually get some regional traveling done. Gyroplanes
is where this engine conversion started. I think my engine and another
2 place Dominator were the first to get conversions from a guy in Colorado
who manufactured the first one. The Dominator now has about 60 hours. The guy
in Colorado is now in full production of this conversion and I believe that
there will be 5 or so more gyroplanes flying this summer with Yamahas. I will
keep you all updated on the results of my 2nd season of flying the Yamaha.
Jason
MKIII Yamaha powered
Portland, OR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=286809#286809
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: In flight Adjustable Trim |
Hence the convenience of having adjustable in-flight pitch trim.
Gene Z
Gene Z/Gang:
I lucked out with my Firestar. I needed a little help trimming in pitch,
roll, and yaw. Did not know what the results would be when I fabricated
fixed trim tabs from .015" 6061 aluminum sheet for the right aileron, left
elevator, and rudder. The thin sheet metal was easy to tweak to get the FS
dialed in and trimmed up. The result was, in fact, mind boggling. My FS
was always trimmed, not matter how it was loaded (I was doing a lot of long
multi-day cross country flights with camping gear, clothes, etc., plus 18
gal fuel, another 108 lbs) or what speed I flew. It would hold a nice steep
Kolb climb hands off on takeoff, zero stick pressure during cruise and other
areas of flight. Undoubtedly, the thin sheet metal would flex enough to
compensate for airspeed.
Wish I could get Miss P'fer (P fer plane) my mkIII to trim out like that.
;-)
john hauck
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Yamaha 4 stroke on Kolb |
The guy in Colorado is now in full production of this conversion and I
believe that there will be 5 or so more gyroplanes flying this summer with
Yamahas. I will keep you all updated on the results of my 2nd season of
flying the Yamaha.
Jason
MKIII Yamaha powered
Jason O/Gang:
Does this guy have a web page?
john hauck
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: In flight Adjustable Trim |
I agree but like some of the plane spraying and in my case XC the trim will
change as fuel is used.
Now I have to land and change the adjustment to fly hands off ( with out ap
pling pressure to the stick) I like having my hands free when I have to (
drink coffee or use the camera and video)
I like flying low over the Gulf of Mexico looking at the schools of fish
=2C shark=2C rays and any thing of interest.
> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: In flight Adjustable Trim
> From: etzimm@gmail.com
> Date: Wed=2C 17 Feb 2010 08:28:36 -0800
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>
>
> Kolb pilot friends=2C
>
> Yes=2C pitch trim may be adjusted via aileron rigging =2C=2C=2C=2C but no
rmally not while in-flight. This means the airplane is ideally trimmed
for only one specific airspeed=2C power setting=2C and payload.
> Change any one of these conditions and the airplane becomes out of trim a
gain.
> Hence the convenience of having adjustable in-flight pitch trim.
>
> Gene Z
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=286806#286806
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Yamaha 4 stroke on Kolb |
Jason,
I have also fabricated steel landing gear legs, but I am having no luck finding
a place in my area to have them heat treated. Each place I checked with locally
said 36 inches is longer than they can do.
Does anyone know a good place where I can have 36" gear legs heat treated?
Thanks,
Gene Z
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=286817#286817
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Yamaha 4 stroke on Kolb |
Does anyone know a good place where I can have 36" gear legs heat treated?
Thanks,
Gene Z
Gene Z/Gang:
Do google search for "metal heat treating".
May have to UPS the legs to the plant. That is what I have done in the
past.
My normal plant was an hour up the road, but they shut down. Haven't needed
any heat treating for a good while now, knock on wood.
john hauck
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Crossed Fingers on purchase |
Hey Bob K,
As a prior FireFly owner it is a fine airplane. Be leery of these
guys pushing you to start making all sorts of changes. The gear is
solid enough for you, belive me I've tested it. Ours was heavy and
so were the two guys that flew it. It had the 20+# VLS parachute,
(heavy) expansion brakes, old Kolb style larger diameter wheel barrow
wheels and Shin "thin" skin tires, and the front enclosure. It
wasn't a bad little airplane.
As for the gear - its just fine, no more braces, you want legs to
bend not, not the cage, if it does bend, that it bends at the right
point making an easier repair, you change things then what? As for
the engine a 447, its a great little engine and a proven engine. We
didn't have an electric starter - that becomes a safety/weigh
issue. Its may safer with the starter, (issue possibility of the
plane getting away from you v/s the prop striking possible standers
with electric), but the pull starter wasn't a problem starting out
side and getting in.
We had expansion brakes and larger 6" dia old Kolb style wheel barrow
wheels which we put in a better grade of bearings which eliminated
the brakes grabbing due to the sloppily cheap bearings that came in
the wheels from Kolb. (I watched the demonstrator at Oshkosh with
the small 5" wheels, it really worked the gear, you could see the
gear flexing like a needle on a phonograph record, didn't like that.)
The only change I thought about was Jack Harts thing about reducing
the cord of the ailerons, but we never done it. Too uncertain what
it would really do. The new owner changed out the tires from the
400x6 Chins to the wider 600x6 and stated it improved the ground
handling tremendously. Odd part is neither of us (prior tail wheel
pilots) had or thought there was any problem there, but if it
improved it, that's good. It's a nice little bird, hope you enjoy it.
jerryb
At 08:33 AM 2/15/2010, you wrote:
>Hal, the owner says it's current weight is 280#. With the Part 103
>allowance for a chute it needs to be 278#. So without the battery
>and starter it should make legal weight.
>bk
>
>On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 11:07 AM, lucien
><<mailto:lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>lstavenhagen@hotmail.com> wrote:
><<mailto:lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
>
>
>herbgh(at)<http://nctc.com>nctc.com wrote:
> > Bob
> >
> > Just looked at the pics on Barnstormers... Does it come in at pt
> > 103 wt? Herb
> >
> > I like the extra leg brace...good luck...
> >
> >
>
>
>I spotted this one the other day too. it has a (mag end) electric
>start on it so I doubt it makes weight if the basic FF is within 20lbs of 254.
>
>But I don't know that figure - anyone know offhand what the typical
>empty weight is on the FF in basic form intended for 103?
>
>--------
>LS
>Titan II SS
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
><http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=286541#286541>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=286541#286541
>
>
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Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Crossed Fingers on purchase |
All
The modification to the gear legs has nothing to do with
strength..The braces are to keep the legs from springing back and
forth not in and out...Herb
At 11:50 AM 2/17/2010, you wrote:
>Hey Bob K,
>As a prior FireFly owner it is a fine airplane. Be leery of these
>guys pushing you to start making all sorts of changes. The gear is
>solid enough for you, belive me I've tested it. Ours was heavy and
>so were the two guys that flew it. It had the 20+# VLS parachute,
>(heavy) expansion brakes, old Kolb style larger diameter wheel
>barrow wheels and Shin "thin" skin tires, and the front
>enclosure. It wasn't a bad little airplane.
>
>As for the gear - its just fine, no more braces, you want legs to
>bend not, not the cage, if it does bend, that it bends at the right
>point making an easier repair, you change things then what? As for
>the engine a 447, its a great little engine and a proven engine. We
>didn't have an electric starter - that becomes a safety/weigh
>issue. Its may safer with the starter, (issue possibility of the
>plane getting away from you v/s the prop striking possible standers
>with electric), but the pull starter wasn't a problem starting out
>side and getting in.
>
>We had expansion brakes and larger 6" dia old Kolb style wheel
>barrow wheels which we put in a better grade of bearings which
>eliminated the brakes grabbing due to the sloppily cheap bearings
>that came in the wheels from Kolb. (I watched the demonstrator at
>Oshkosh with the small 5" wheels, it really worked the gear, you
>could see the gear flexing like a needle on a phonograph record,
>didn't like that.) The only change I thought about was Jack Harts
>thing about reducing the cord of the ailerons, but we never done
>it. Too uncertain what it would really do. The new owner changed
>out the tires from the 400x6 Chins to the wider 600x6 and stated it
>improved the ground handling tremendously. Odd part is neither of
>us (prior tail wheel pilots) had or thought there was any problem
>there, but if it improved it, that's good. It's a nice little bird,
>hope you enjoy it.
>jerryb
>
>
>At 08:33 AM 2/15/2010, you wrote:
>>Hal, the owner says it's current weight is 280#. With the Part 103
>>allowance for a chute it needs to be 278#. So without the battery
>>and starter it should make legal weight.
>>bk
>>
>>On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 11:07 AM, lucien
>><<mailto:lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>lstavenhagen@hotmail.com > wrote:
>><<mailto:lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>lstavenhagen@hotmail.com >
>>
>>herbgh(at)<http://nctc.com>nctc.com wrote:
>> > Bob
>> >
>> > Just looked at the pics on Barnstormers... Does it come in at pt
>> > 103 wt? Herb
>> >
>> > I like the extra leg brace...good luck...
>> >
>> >
>>
>>I spotted this one the other day too. it has a (mag end) electric
>>start on it so I doubt it makes weight if the basic FF is within 20lbs of 254.
>>But I don't know that figure - anyone know offhand what the typical
>>empty weight is on the FF in basic form intended for 103?
>>--------
>>LS
>>Titan II SS
>>
>>
>>
>>Read this topic online here:
>>
>><http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=286541#286541>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=286541#286541
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>==========
>>arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
>>==========
>>http://forums.matronics.com
>>==========
>>le, List Admin.
>>="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
><http://www.matronics.com/contribution>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>02/17/10 07:35:00
Message 16
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| Subject: | Heat Treating Steel |
Hi Gene=2C
Yes=2C I know of a great place that heat treats metal. Industrial Heat T
reat=2C in Salt Lake City=2C Utah.
I made my own gears legs. Those folks turned 'em into spring steel. Oh
=2C by the way=2C do ALL fabrication to your legs prior to sending off for
heat treating. When those suckers come back it's damn near impossible to d
rill them. A simple 3/16" hole takes about 6 drillbits=2C and about two ho
urs!!!! Guess how I know this. :-0 eecks!!!!
Here's their contact info=3B
Industrial Heat Treat
1-801-363-7318
I spoke with a young lady=2C mostly=2C and I'm sure she'd remember me. T
hey charged me $65 for the Rockwell 48 treatment=2C and $20 for return ship
ment to St George=2C UT. I was VERY pleased with their work!
( I just gave them a quick call and she remembered me=2C and says rates ar
e pretty much the same.)
Mike Welch
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.
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| Subject: | Re: New alternate engine on my MKIII |
Hello All,
I just wanted to give this thread a bump because a couple of people sent me some
e-mails asking questions about my installation. If you are interested in the
Yamaha engine, please read this whole thread. There is contact information
and a link to a thread on the rotary wing forum with much more information.
I would also like to throw out a word of caution. Adapting engines to airplane
use is not for the faint of heart. It will take you an entire season of flying
to work out all the bugs. Just because an engine has been used by someone
else, does not mean all the issues have been worked out. Some of us find it very
interesting and rewarding to finally achieve the goal, but there is a journey
involved.
Jason
MKIII Yamaha powered
Portland, OR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=286837#286837
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| Subject: | Re: Heat Treating Steel |
Mike W,
Thanks,
That is a great price. Were yours 36'' or longer?
Gene
On Feb 17, 2010, at 1:33 PM, Mike Welch wrote:
> Hi Gene,
>
> Yes, I know of a great place that heat treats metal. Industrial
> Heat Treat, in Salt Lake City, Utah.
>
> I made my own gears legs. Those folks turned 'em into spring
> steel. Oh, by the way, do ALL fabrication to your legs prior to
> sending off for heat treating. When those suckers come back it's
> damn near impossible to drill them. A simple 3/16" hole takes about
> 6 drillbits, and about two hours!!!! Guess how I know this. :-0
> eecks!!!!
>
> Here's their contact info;
>
> Industrial Heat Treat
> 1-801-363-7318
>
> I spoke with a young lady, mostly, and I'm sure she'd remember
> me. They charged me $65 for the Rockwell 48 treatment, and $20 for
> return shipment to St George, UT. I was VERY pleased with their work!
>
> ( I just gave them a quick call and she remembered me, and says
> rates are pretty much the same.)
>
> Mike Welch
>
>
> Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. Get it now.
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Yamaha 4 stroke on Kolb |
No, he does not have a website, below is his information and a link to the topic
on the rotary wing forum. He is doing this out of passion, not business. We
will see how long he can sustain it.
Regards
Jason
http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16100&highlight=yamaha
The contact info for information and plans for the gearbox adapter:
e-mail: razorkisss(at)aol.com
Phone:(719) 499-2378
His name is Todd
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=286839#286839
Message 20
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| Subject: | Heat Treating Steel |
Hi Gene=2C
Yeah=2C I know re: the price. Both of my gears leg cost a total of $155.
Complete=2C lock stock and barrel!!!
Yes=2C my gear leg were 36" or longer.
IIRC=2C the leg part was 36". Then=2C when you weld the axle tube=2C it
comes out a couple inches more. At any rate=2C the length wasn't a problem
for those good folks at Industrial Heat Treat.
Best to ya=2C Gene=2C
Mike Welch
MkIII
working on remounting the main wings (got the hor. stabs done yesterday)
From: etzimm@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Heat Treating Steel
Mike W=2C
Thanks=2C
That is a great price. Were yours 36'' or longer?
Gene
On Feb 17=2C 2010=2C at 1:33 PM=2C Mike Welch wrote:
Hi Gene=2C
Yes=2C I know of a great place that heat treats metal. Industrial Heat T
reat=2C in Salt Lake City=2C Utah.
I made my own gears legs. Those folks turned 'em into spring steel. Oh
=2C by the way=2C do ALL fabrication to your legs prior to sending off for
heat treating. When those suckers come back it's damn near impossible to d
rill them. A simple 3/16" hole takes about 6 drillbits=2C and about two ho
urs!!!! Guess how I know this. :-0 eecks!!!!
Here's their contact info=3B
Industrial Heat Treat
1-801-363-7318
I spoke with a young lady=2C mostly=2C and I'm sure she'd remember me. T
hey charged me $65 for the Rockwell 48 treatment=2C and $20 for return ship
ment to St George=2C UT. I was VERY pleased with their work!
( I just gave them a quick call and she remembered me=2C and says rates ar
e pretty much the same.)
Mike Welch
Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. Get it now.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?Kolb-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/con
tribution
_________________________________________________________________
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| Subject: | Re: In flight Adjustable Trim |
Thanks I will give that a try before I go spending a bunch of time and mon
ey on other designs
Ellery Batchelder Jr.
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
Sent: Wed, Feb 17, 2010 10:02 am
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: In flight Adjustable Trim
Ellery, Check the aileron and flap rigging, the only have to be down a fra
ction of a degree to get that effect. Set the trim in the middle, fly, the
n adjust rigging to get neutral trim. Worked for me.
Rick Girard
On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 5:15 PM, Ellery Batchelder Jr <elleryweld@aol.com>
wrote:
Eugene
thanks for your input that's the kind of info I was looking for, someone
that has tried it.
I had my old firestar able to fly hands off long distance with a trim tab
in the elevator I want to make my Mk3 fly as well ,if I let go of the sti
ck it wants to take a dive the way it is now and I don't like it that way
i am just trying to figure out the best way to correct it.
Ellery Batchelder Jr.
-----Original Message-----
From: Eugene Zimmerman <etzimm@gmail.com>
Sent: Tue, Feb 16, 2010 4:56 pm
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: In flight Adjustable Trim
Ellery,
My experience at pitch trimming the kolb plane using adjustable horizontal
tabilizers has been totally unsatisfactory. I believe the reason for this
is
ecause of the specific triangular shape of stab which reduces the surface
area
f the stab to near zero at outer the point of the stab.
On my plane I needed more nose up trim, so I tried lowering the leading
edge of
he stab. The result was totally unsatisfactory. It merely made the elevato
r
ave a natural downward deflection to remain aligned with the air flow as
it
assed over the stab. It actually now required even more back stick pressu
re to
eep the nose up and it was less efficient because the stab and the elevat
or
ere now misaligned with a combined camber that is opposite what is necess
ary
or the downward direction of the force on the tail to raise the nose.
I attached an in-flight picture where you can see this opposite camber of
the
tab & elevator necessary to produce downward force of the tail.
Against all intuition I then raised the leading edge of the horizontal st
ab to
lign with the natural inflight position of elevator and much to my amazeme
nt it
mproved the trim greatly.
I did eventually add an in-flight adjustable tab to the elevator which is
much
ore effective and efficient at aerodynamically changing pitch trim, though
I'm
ot saying it is better than adjustable spring tension to the mechanical
inkage of the stock kolb elevator.
My conclusion is that trying to use adjustable stab incidence for pitch co
ntrol
n a Kolb is ineffective and a wast of time and effort.
Merely sharing my experience.
Gene Z
ead this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=286693#286693
ttachments:
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get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
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p://forums.matronics.com
blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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===========
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-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,
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| Subject: | Re: Yamaha 4 stroke on Kolb |
Have you got any pics of this creacher? that you can share with us
Ellery Batchelder Jr.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jason Omelchuck <jason@trek-tech.com>
Sent: Wed, Feb 17, 2010 11:31 am
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Yamaha 4 stroke on Kolb
Hello Tony,
I am the fellow with the Yamaha on my MKIII. Last summer I put about 40
hours
n it and am happy with the way it ran. Right now my airplane is in the sh
op
etting its new steel landing gear (upgrade not accident). I should get th
e
egs back from the heat treater on Friday. Last summer I was just feeling
the
ngine out and never ventured further than 100 miles from home. This summe
r I
ope to expand my horizons and actually get some regional traveling done.
yroplanes is where this engine conversion started. I think my engine and
nother 2 place Dominator were the first to get conversions from a guy in
olorado who manufactured the first one. The Dominator now has about 60 ho
urs.
he guy in Colorado is now in full production of this conversion and I beli
eve
hat there will be 5 or so more gyroplanes flying this summer with Yamahas.
I
ill keep you all updated on the results of my 2nd season of flying the Yam
aha.
Jason
KIII Yamaha powered
ortland, OR
ead this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=286809#286809
========================
===========
-= - The Kolb-List Email Forum -
-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,
-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
-= Photoshare, and much much more:
-
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
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-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums!
-
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-
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========================
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Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: In flight Adjustable Trim |
elleryweld(at)aol.com wrote:
> Has anyone on the list ever thought of designing something to adjust the horizontal
stabilizers like on a cub to trim a Kolb it just makes more sense to me
because it would be a positive trim and not make more drag , the spring system
just doesn't work as great as it should for me the air temps change so much
the springs are not consistent enough for me.
> I rebuilt the elevators on my old firestar a few years ago and built a inflight
trim tab into one of the elevators with great results,but that would make
more drag than a stabilizer trim system what are your opinions ?
>
> The reason I ask, I am working on a electric project to do just this on a
Kolb Mk3 it might be a waste of my time but I have to try it anyway thanks for
your time and input.
>
> Ellery Batchelder Jr.
> Kolb Mk3C
> N213, 582 Rotax
> Garmin AERA
> --
You might want to think about modifying the flap handle mechanism a bit. By being
able to either reflex or slightly lower the flaps just a little, the rest of
the trim system hardly has to work at all to get things in trim. I can carry
a heavy passenger, and by reflexing the flaps up a notch at cruise, the up elevator
trim is then only about 30% of normal.
Here is a link to how I did mine, but I would think that if you overlaid the standard
curved piece of steel that has 3 big vertical slots cut in it with a new
one that had multiple horizontal slots instead, and then attached a horizontal
piece of steel to the flap handle that would click into the slots, you could
do it even easier. (I tend to over complicate stuff, so there is probably an
easier way...) As long as it doesn't tend to pop out of the slots, almost any
crude and simple system is ok.
http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/pg3.htm
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=286850#286850
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| Subject: | Re: Yamaha 4 stroke on Kolb |
I had a video up on U-tube but I took it down because I had changed some things.
When I pull it out of the hanger in a couple of weeks, I take another one and
post it.
Jason
MKIII Yamaha powered
Portland, OR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=286855#286855
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| Subject: | Re: Heat Treating Steel |
Just a note for those who are considering a switch to the steel legs and
would rather let someone else do the dirty work,
I bought mine from TNK and put them on last spring. Presto-chango, a
little expensive but worked slickern s**t.
They might have some more lying around. Give 'em a call.
BB
still awaiting the further tilt of the earth to start(indoor) veggies
and do some airplane work.
On 17, Feb 2010, at 2:56 PM, Mike Welch wrote:
> Hi Gene,
>
> Yeah, I know re: the price. Both of my gears leg cost a total of
$155. Complete, lock stock and barrel!!!
>
> Yes, my gear leg were 36" or longer.
>
> IIRC, the leg part was 36". Then, when you weld the axle tube, it
comes out a couple inches more. At any rate, the length wasn't a
problem for those good folks at Industrial Heat Treat.
>
> Best to ya, Gene,
>
> Mike Welch
> MkIII
> working on remounting the main wings (got the hor. stabs done
yesterday)
>
>
>
>
> From: etzimm@gmail.com
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Heat Treating Steel
> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 14:16:40 -0500
>
> Mike W,
>
> Thanks,
> That is a great price. Were yours 36'' or longer?
>
> Gene
>
>
>
> On Feb 17, 2010, at 1:33 PM, Mike Welch wrote:
>
> Hi Gene,
>
> Yes, I know of a great place that heat treats metal. Industrial
Heat Treat, in Salt Lake City, Utah.
>
> I made my own gears legs. Those folks turned 'em into spring steel.
Oh, by the way, do ALL fabrication to your legs prior to sending off
for heat treating. When those suckers come back it's damn near
impossible to drill them. A simple 3/16" hole takes about 6 drillbits,
and about two hours!!!! Guess how I know this. :-0 eecks!!!!
>
> Here's their contact info;
>
> Industrial Heat Treat
> 1-801-363-7318
>
> I spoke with a young lady, mostly, and I'm sure she'd remember me.
They charged me $65 for the Rockwell 48 treatment, and $20 for return
shipment to St George, UT. I was VERY pleased with their work!
>
> ( I just gave them a quick call and she remembered me, and says rates
are pretty much the same.)
>
> Mike Welch
>
>
>
>
>
> Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. Get it now.
>
>
>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics
.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/co
ntribution
>
>
>
>
>
> ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
> ronics.com
> ww.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
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target='_new'>Sign up now.
>
>
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: New alternate engine on my MKIII |
I would also like to throw out a word of caution. Adapting engines to
airplane use is not for the faint of heart. It will take you an entire
season of flying to work out all the bugs. Just because an engine has been
used by someone else, does not mean all the issues have been worked out.
Some of us find it very interesting and rewarding to finally achieve the
goal, but there is a journey involved.
Jason
Jason O/Gang:
Thanks for making that qualifying comment on your work with Yamaha
(aircraft) engines. There are people who do not realize it is a bolt on and
fly off forever project, at this stage of development.
It is refreshing read comments from someone who is working on a project and
being open with their experience.
I am always interested in what folks out there doing, right or wrong, as
long as they are doing something, and not regurgitating something they heard
someone else say.
I'd probably be flying something other than a 912 if there was something out
there equal to or better than. However, the type of flying I do, I already
have enough excitement to deal with. Don't need to add the role of tester,
technician, developer to that work load.
Good luck on your project.
BTW: I will be in SE Oregon next May and planning on a possible return
flight from the Rock House to the Oregon Coast, then south through Northern
California before turning back east to Alabama. Maybe we can hook up and I
can see your project.
john hauck
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Heat Treating Steel |
Last heat treating I had done by these folks. One of their plants was
in Anniston, AL, but close a few years ago:
http://www.braddockmt.com/plantLocations.html
They have 6 plants and one of those is in NJ.
Heat treating is normally charged by the pound, not the piece.
If they have other stuff to heat treat the same as yours, they stick it
all in the oven to all at the same time.
Last time I paid 60.00 for two gear legs and a tail wheel strut. I
could have had about ten times that many pieces heat treated for the
same price.
Pays to shop around if you have that option. Should be a lot of metal
treating plants in the NE.
john hauck
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Yeah, I know re: the price. Both of my gears leg cost a total of
$155. Complete, lock stock and barrel!!!
Mike Welch
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: New alternate engine on my MKIII |
Thanks for making that qualifying comment on your work with Yamaha
(aircraft) engines. There are people who do not realize it is a bolt on and
fly off forever project, at this stage of development.
***************
Sorry about that folks. I proofed that last post and still screwed it up.
Should have read, "There are people who do not realize it (alternate
engines) is not a bolt on and fly off forever project, at this stage of
development.
john hauck
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Yamaha 4 stroke on Kolb |
No, he does not have a website, below is his information and a link to the
topic on the rotary wing forum. He is doing this out of passion, not
business. We will see how long he can sustain it.
Regards
Jason
Jason O/Gang:
Is this the same/similar engine they are running in the Legend Race Cars?
Good looking engine. Yamaha makes good stuff.
Hard to beat reliability of Japanese dirt bike four strokes, but be tough to
get one to turn a prop without a super effiective torsional vibration
dampening system.
john hauck
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Yamaha 4 stroke on Kolb |
Hard to beat reliability of Japanese dirt bike four strokes, but be tough
to
get one to turn a prop without a super effiective torsional vibration
dampening system.
john hauck
Again, I was referring to what I ride and not what Jason is using to power
his mkIII.
I have a 400 cc Suzuki single cylinder 4 valve. Rev limiter is set at the
factory at 10,500 rpm. That's a bunch of rpm for a thumper that pulls like
a tractor at low rpms. It is a 2002 year model, very low maintenance and
super reliability.
john hauck
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: air restart... |
herbgh(at)nctc.com wrote:
> If one has altitude when the engine goes quiet, then the prop could
> assist the pull start by putting the plane in a bit of a dive... Low
> and slow...better fly the plane..:-) Herb
>
Never worked for me unfortunately, as the prop was always behind me when I flew
with the engine off.
So the rope really has to be positioned where you can get some leverage. On my
FS II it was too far back and I regrettably couldn't start in the seat. And with
the 503, I'm borderline too weak to pull start it when seated even with the
clutch fitted....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=286866#286866
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: In flight Adjustable Trim |
that gives me an Idea I have an electric actuator now Im thinking I shoul
d install that and set it up so I can go a tad negative on the flaps and
make the flaps electric, get two birds with one shot.
I really like this list even if it makes my mind go to another world once
in a while you guys are always interesting,help full and full of things
I cant seem to think of once in a while
and its really nice to not have any bickering
Ellery Batchelder Jr.
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
Sent: Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:02 pm
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: In flight Adjustable Trim
lleryweld(at)aol.com wrote:
Has anyone on the list ever thought of designing something to adjust the
orizontal stabilizers like on a cub to trim a Kolb it just makes more sens
e to
e because it would be a positive trim and not make more drag , the spring
ystem just doesn't work as great as it should for me the air temps change
so
uch the springs are not consistent enough for me.
I rebuilt the elevators on my old firestar a few years ago and built
a
nflight trim tab into one of the elevators with great results,=C3=AF=C2
=C2=BDbut that
ould make more drag than a stabilizer trim system what are your opinions
?
The reason I ask, I am working on a electric project to do just this
on a
olb Mk3 it might be a waste of my time but I have to try it=C3=AF=C2=C2
=BD anyway thanks
or your time and input.
Ellery Batchelder Jr.
Kolb Mk3C
N213, 582 Rotax
Garmin AERA
--
ou might want to think about modifying the flap handle mechanism a bit. By
eing able to either reflex or slightly lower the flaps just a little, the
rest
f the trim system hardly has to work at all to get things in trim. I can
carry
heavy passenger, and by reflexing the flaps up a notch at cruise, the up
levator trim is then only about 30% of normal.
ere is a link to how I did mine, but I would think that if you overlaid th
e
tandard curved piece of steel that has 3 big vertical slots cut in it with
a
ew one that had multiple horizontal slots instead, and then attached a
orizontal piece of steel to the flap handle that would click into the slot
s,
ou could do it even easier. (I tend to over complicate stuff, so there is
robably an easier way...) As long as it doesn't tend to pop out of the slo
ts,
lmost any crude and simple system is ok.
ttp://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/pg3.htm
ichard Pike
KIII N420P (420ldPoops)
ead this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=286850#286850
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Message 33
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| Subject: | Valley Engineering Big-Twin - Any one flying with one? |
Hi folks,
I posted this some time back, didn't get much response. Some time
has passed and other folks may now had one and other that do have had
some time to form an opinion regarding the engine.
So for those that have or are now flying with this engine, how about
a little report on how you feel about the engine, it's power output,
comparison to typical Rotax's like the 447 or 503, and reliability.
Thanks,
jerb
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