---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 02/26/10: 34 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:08 AM - Re: Noise Insulating Foam (Thom Riddle) 2. 07:58 AM - Re: Re: Noise Insulating Foam (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 3. 08:16 AM - Re: Re: Noise Insulating Foam (John Hauck) 4. 10:25 AM - Performance of a Bose headset on a Kolb (Rotax engines) (Mahesh Iyer) 5. 10:41 AM - Re: Performance of a Bose headset on a Kolb (Rotax engines) (robert bean) 6. 12:48 PM - Re: Performance of a Bose headset on a Kolb (Rotax engines) (Ralph B) 7. 01:09 PM - Re: Re: Performance of a Bose headset on a Kolb (Rotax engines) (John Hauck) 8. 01:50 PM - Re: Re: Performance of a Bose headset on a Kolb (Rotax engines) (Mike Welch) 9. 02:14 PM - Re: Performance of a Bose headset on a Kolb (Rotax engines) (Tom Longo) 10. 02:14 PM - Re: Re: Performance of a Bose headset on a Kolb (Rotax engines) (robert bean) 11. 02:49 PM - Fuel Reserve and UL's (Bob Kravis) 12. 03:13 PM - Re: Fuel Reserve and UL's (Larry Cottrell) 13. 03:28 PM - Re: Fuel Reserve and UL's (Dana Hague) 14. 03:47 PM - Re: Fuel Reserve and UL's (Bob Kravis) 15. 04:36 PM - Re: Fuel Reserve and UL's (Larry Cottrell) 16. 04:52 PM - check list (lhaggerty) 17. 05:12 PM - Re: Fuel Reserve and UL's (Ellery Batchelder Jr) 18. 05:33 PM - Re: Fuel Reserve and UL's (John Hauck) 19. 05:33 PM - Re: Fuel Reserve and UL's (John Hauck) 20. 05:47 PM - Re: Performance of a Bose headset on a Kolb (Rotax engines) (LEE CREECH) 21. 05:50 PM - Re: Fuel Reserve and UL's (Herb) 22. 05:51 PM - baggage compartment (Dana Hague) 23. 05:51 PM - Re: Fuel Reserve and UL's (Dana Hague) 24. 06:16 PM - Re: Fuel Reserve and UL's (Richard Pike) 25. 06:19 PM - Re: Fuel Reserve and UL's (John Hauck) 26. 06:43 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Reserve and UL's (John Hauck) 27. 06:45 PM - Re: Fuel Reserve and UL's (John Hauck) 28. 06:59 PM - Re: Fuel Reserve and UL's (Jack B. Hart) 29. 07:08 PM - Re: Fuel Reserve and UL's (John Hauck) 30. 07:19 PM - Re: Fuel Reserve and UL's (chris davis) 31. 08:42 PM - Re: Fuel Reserve and UL's (Ellery Batchelder Jr) 32. 09:11 PM - Re: Fuel Reserve and UL's (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 33. 09:50 PM - Re: Fuel Reserve and UL's (Richard Pike) 34. 10:01 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Reserve and UL's (John Hauck) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:08:29 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Noise Insulating Foam From: "Thom Riddle" I just got a response to an email inquiry to the site I listed as a supplier of the RoadBlockR product, which follows: Hi Thom, Planes and autos are always a tough one because of all of the noise variables. I had a gentleman who had replaced the bushings on his car with urethane bushings and had a very high pitched whirring sound as a result. He used the RoadBlockR and saw a definite reduction in vibrational noise in the car (and his audio system sounded 10 xs better!), less of an echoing. He did see some minor reduction in the airborne noise, but not as much as he had hoped, so he is furthering the application with some sound absorption foam under the carpeting, etc. I havent heard back from him just yet on how he made out with that. One of the other products you could look at is lining portions of the cabin with something like this product. This comes with either a peel and stick backing, or can be applied with an adhesive. http://www.soundproofcow.com/foam-soundproofing-barriers/soundproofing-insulation-foam.html Then I got another reply which follows: Hey Thom! I missed the last part of your email. The vibrational products do not have an STC rating, they have a Loss Ratio number. This is due to the fact that is a different test that is applied. They test the vibraitonal loss at different temperatures. The Barrier Composite has an STC of 20 from the barrier and an NRC of .25 Something else to consider, Roadblock R is a Class A rated fire resistant product. The second product is not. May be an important consideration. Also, our Silent Running product is a roll on or spray on product. It basically takes the ding out of the metalif the metal is hit, it has a thump sound. http://www.soundproofcow.com/sound-deadening/sound-damping-coating.html Tiffany M Roth Acoustic Design Rep/Account Manager American Micro Industries 440 Ramsey Ave Chambersburg, PA 17201 P: 717-262-7244 C: 717-658-9111 F: 717-261-1790 troth@americanmicroinc.com -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY Kolb Slingshot SS-021 Jabiru 2200A #1574 Tennessee Prop 64x32 An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory. - Friedrich Engels Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288283#288283 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:45 AM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Noise Insulating Foam John I just found a sample of sound insulation I picked up at Sun-N-Fun last year made for aircraft. I don't know how well it works. Scroll down they sell their product in bulk. http://www.soundexproducts.com/order.html Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:16:47 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Noise Insulating Foam I just found a sample of sound insulation I picked up at Sun-N-Fun last year made for aircraft. Rick Neilsen ************** I'll probably go with the RoadBlockR product. It seems that it will do what I want it to do with the simplest installation. If I could keep the area under the center section and the top of the fuel tank dry, I'd stuff it with insulation and drive one. I can live with some noise, as I have done for years, but since the center section overhaul, it has become overwhelming. john hauck mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:25:11 AM PST US From: Mahesh Iyer Subject: Kolb-List: Performance of a Bose headset on a Kolb (Rotax engines) Dear Kolbers, I wanted to know your views on the performance of a Bose Headset on Rotax e ngines in case anyone has used it. I presently fly with a Lightspeed XC and it performs good both on the Kolb and GA aircraft, but if the Bose is really quiet, I was planning to upgrade . Any feedback is appreciated. =C2- Thanks, Mahesh Iyer Kolb FS-2, Oregon. The joy of Flight Nothing comes closer, it=99s a ro mance for life! =C2-=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:41:57 AM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Performance of a Bose headset on a Kolb (Rotax engines) They may be the perfect headset but I could build a whole airplane for what a pair of them cost. Wait until the chinese copy them for $25. BB do not archive On 26, Feb 2010, at 1:22 PM, Mahesh Iyer wrote: > Dear Kolbers, > I wanted to know your views on the performance of a Bose Headset on Rotax engines in case anyone has used it. > I presently fly with a Lightspeed XC and it performs good both on the Kolb and GA aircraft, but if the Bose is really quiet, I was planning to upgrade. Any feedback is appreciated. > > Thanks, > Mahesh Iyer > Kolb FS-2, > Oregon. > The joy of Flight =85=85Nothing comes closer, it=92s a romance for life! > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:48:18 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Performance of a Bose headset on a Kolb (Rotax engines) From: "Ralph B" A friend of mine uses the Bose headsets in his 912 Titan. I flew beside him to Oshkosh last summer and thought the Bose wasn't quite what I expected. It was hard to understand him at times. I use a DRE Communications headset that is passive and he understands me all the time. I bought a pair of Lightspeed 20xl's and they are terrible in the Kolbra. The background noise is awful. If I bought another pair, I would go with the Telex Digital 50's. I have heard good reports about them in the 912 series engines. I notice DRE has come out with some later models that have ANR. Maybe that would be the way to go. Ralph -------- Ralph B Original Firestar 447 N91493 E-AB 1000 hours 23 years flying it Kolbra 912UL N20386 2 years flying it 120 hrs Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288359#288359 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:09:10 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Performance of a Bose headset on a Kolb (Rotax engines) I notice DRE has come out with some later models that have ANR. Maybe that would be the way to go. Ralph Ralph/Gang: That is the DRE6000 ENR. Other day I referred to it as the ANR, but I wouldn't know the difference between the two designations. I've been flying with mine for several years. I have two sets. The older set works better than the new set, to me, but I have David Clark high dollar silicone ear seals. The new set has cheaper DC silicone seals. Biggest problem with any ANR or passive headset is making sure it has a good seal around your ears. Eye glass stems and base ball hats contribute to air leaks which reduce the performance of the head set. john hauck mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:50:10 PM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Performance of a Bose headset on a Kolb (Rotax engines) > Biggest problem with any ANR or passive headset is making sure it has a g ood > seal around your ears. > john hauck > mkIII > Titus=2C Alabama John H.=2C That's a very important you make there. In my Headsets Inc. installation instructions=2C they tell me I have to have the gel ear seals. Any other type of seal just won't work. Fortunately=2C in my case I already had the gel seals. Mike Welch MkIII ailerons and flap being reinstalled--permanently=2C this time _________________________________________________________________ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:14:05 PM PST US From: "Tom Longo" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Performance of a Bose headset on a Kolb (Rotax engines) ? I tried a set of Bose in my MKIII with a 582 on it and they did not work very good, noise is to high frequency in the Kolb. Comtronics headsets and intercom combo set up worked well. Tom -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mahesh Iyer Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 1:23 PM To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Kolb-List: Performance of a Bose headset on a Kolb (Rotax engines) Dear Kolbers, I wanted to know your views on the performance of a Bose Headset on Rotax engines in case anyone has used it. I presently fly with a Lightspeed XC and it performs good both on the Kolb and GA aircraft, but if the Bose is really quiet, I was planning to upgrade. Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks, Mahesh Iyer Kolb FS-2, Oregon. The joy of Flight =EF=BD=EF=BDNothing comes closer, it=EF=BDs a romance for life! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. The Professional version does not have this message. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:14:24 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Performance of a Bose headset on a Kolb (Rotax engines) pince-nez sunglasses? BB do not archive On 26, Feb 2010, at 4:48 PM, Mike Welch wrote: > > Biggest problem with any ANR or passive headset is making sure it has a good > > seal around your ears. > > john hauck > > mkIII > > Titus, Alabama > > John H., > > That's a very important you make there. In my Headsets Inc. installation instructions, they tell me I have to have the gel ear seals. Any other type of seal just won't work. > Fortunately, in my case I already had the gel seals. > > Mike Welch > MkIII > ailerons and flap being reinstalled--permanently, this time > > > Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail ='_new'>Sign up now. > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:49:22 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Fuel Reserve and UL's From: Bob Kravis I was reading through the AOPA site because I had a question about fuel reserve and flight distance in a 447 powered UL. In response to a letter to the editor questioning the necessity of landing with "adequate reserve," the editor replied: *It is our opinion that upon landing, every VFR flight should have at least 30 minutes worth of fuel in the tanks. And if flying cross-country, should the pilot need to tap into the required VFR fuel reserve, it constitutes an "emergency," and the pilot should be looking for the closest airport and gas pump. (Ideally, the pilot should have landed and refueled long before tapping into the 30-minute VFR reserve.) - Ed.* Now looking at the Rotax performance charts I see something like 5.5 gph at 6,000 rpm and assuming a UL will be cruising at 63 mph, in still air one would have only 2.25 gal.'s of a full 5 gal. tank to fly off. That's only 27 minutes of flying time at that consumption rate. You couldn't make a 30 mi. flight to a neighboring airport! I know that greatest endurance would be at a lower rpm but how big a difference? 4.5 gph @ 50 mph? What is your real world experience? Bob ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:13:07 PM PST US From: "Larry Cottrell" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fuel Reserve and UL's Perhaps you were looking at the wrong chart. I had a 582 that would burn 5 GPH but my 447 never burned more than 3 GPH or less. I do know for certain on a Firestar 2 and the 447 I regularly got 20 miles per gallon. I can assure you that I also flew at 6000 rpm's. Larry Note: If you forward this email, please delete the forwarding history, which includes my email address. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Kravis To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 3:47 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Fuel Reserve and UL's I was reading through the AOPA site because I had a question about fuel reserve and flight distance in a 447 powered UL. In response to a letter to the editor questioning the necessity of landing with "adequate reserve," the editor replied: It is our opinion that upon landing, every VFR flight should have at least 30 minutes worth of fuel in the tanks. And if flying cross-country, should the pilot need to tap into the required VFR fuel reserve, it constitutes an "emergency," and the pilot should be looking for the closest airport and gas pump. (Ideally, the pilot should have landed and refueled long before tapping into the 30-minute VFR reserve.) - Ed. Now looking at the Rotax performance charts I see something like 5.5 gph at 6,000 rpm and assuming a UL will be cruising at 63 mph, in still air one would have only 2.25 gal.'s of a full 5 gal. tank to fly off. That's only 27 minutes of flying time at that consumption rate. You couldn't make a 30 mi. flight to a neighboring airport! I know that greatest endurance would be at a lower rpm but how big a difference? 4.5 gph @ 50 mph? What is your real world experience? Bob ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 02/26/10 07:34:00 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:28:57 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fuel Reserve and UL's At 05:47 PM 2/26/2010, Bob Kravis wrote: >It is our opinion that upon landing, every VFR flight should have at least >30 minutes worth of fuel in the tanks. And if flying cross-country, should >the pilot need to tap into the required VFR fuel reserve, it constitutes >an "emergency,".. >What is your real world experience? A 30 minute reserve may be fine for a GA aircraft that needs a 2000' (or more) paved runway to land, but is hardly necessary for a UL or UL-like aircraft that can land nearly anywhere. From any random point in the US, how far (in time) would you have to fly to reach a suitable airport for a GA plane? How far (again, in time) would you have to fly to where you can make a safe landing in a Kolb? If the latter number doesn't agree with the glide ratio and your altitude, you don't fly like I do. -Dana -- Hard work has a future payoff. Laziness pays off now. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:47:20 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fuel Reserve and UL's From: Bob Kravis Larry, Here's the chart I was looking at (see attached). Bob On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 5:47 PM, Bob Kravis wrote: > I was reading through the AOPA site because I had a question about fuel > reserve and flight distance in a 447 powered UL. In response to a letter to > the editor questioning the necessity of landing with "adequate reserve," > the editor replied: > *It is our opinion that upon landing, every VFR flight should have at > least 30 minutes worth of fuel in the tanks. And if flying cross-country, > should the pilot need to tap into the required VFR fuel reserve, it > constitutes an "emergency," and the pilot should be looking for the closest > airport and gas pump. (Ideally, the pilot should have landed and refueled > long before tapping into the 30-minute VFR reserve.) - Ed.* > Now looking at the Rotax performance charts I see something like 5.5 gph at > 6,000 rpm and assuming a UL will be cruising at 63 mph, in still air one > would have only 2.25 gal.'s of a full 5 gal. tank to fly off. That's only > 27 minutes of flying time at that consumption rate. You couldn't make a 30 > mi. flight to a neighboring airport! I know that greatest endurance would > be at a lower rpm but how big a difference? 4.5 gph @ 50 mph? > What is your real world experience? > Bob > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:36:36 PM PST US From: "Larry Cottrell" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fuel Reserve and UL's It might be the right chart, but the results are wrong. They just don't burn that much gas. Anyone had that kind of usage on a 447? I am not experienced in a Firefly, but I can't see you using that amount of fuel at any setting under 6200. You should be able to fly 60 to 70 miles and still have a gallon of fuel left. Your best bet would be to do some checking on your own before you wander off to MV. I would take it up and fly around in the pattern, same altitude, same setting, timing your flight, land and check the fuel used. If there is no way to monitor the fuel used, start with a 30 minute flight. Once you figure out your consumption at say 6000 RPM, then you can check to see what setting will conserve the most fuel and still give you a suitable power setting. Larry Note: If you forward this email, please delete the forwarding history, which includes my email address. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Kravis To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 4:25 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fuel Reserve and UL's Larry, Here's the chart I was looking at (see attached). Bob On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 5:47 PM, Bob Kravis wrote: I was reading through the AOPA site because I had a question about fuel reserve and flight distance in a 447 powered UL. In response to a letter to the editor questioning the necessity of landing with "adequate reserve," the editor replied: It is our opinion that upon landing, every VFR flight should have at least 30 minutes worth of fuel in the tanks. And if flying cross-country, should the pilot need to tap into the required VFR fuel reserve, it constitutes an "emergency," and the pilot should be looking for the closest airport and gas pump. (Ideally, the pilot should have landed and refueled long before tapping into the 30-minute VFR reserve.) - Ed. Now looking at the Rotax performance charts I see something like 5.5 gph at 6,000 rpm and assuming a UL will be cruising at 63 mph, in still air one would have only 2.25 gal.'s of a full 5 gal. tank to fly off. That's only 27 minutes of flying time at that consumption rate. You couldn't make a 30 mi. flight to a neighboring airport! I know that greatest endurance would be at a lower rpm but how big a difference? 4.5 gph @ 50 mph? What is your real world experience? Bob get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 02/26/10 07:34:00 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:52:53 PM PST US From: "lhaggerty" Subject: Kolb-List: check list I am a new Fire Fly owner. Can some other Fire Fly pilots send me examples of the check lists they use for before taxi/take off and before landing/ shutdown. Thanks Pete lhaggerty@tampabay.rr.com ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:12:49 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fuel Reserve and UL's From: Ellery Batchelder Jr Bob when I had the firestar Fat but Clean with a 447 on it I was getting 3 to 3.3GPH @ 75MPH Ellery Batchelder Jr. -----Original Message----- From: Bob Kravis Sent: Fri, Feb 26, 2010 5:47 pm Subject: Kolb-List: Fuel Reserve and UL's I was reading through the AOPA site because I had a question about fuel re serve and flight distance in a 447 powered UL. In response to a letter to the editor questioning the necessity of landing with "adequate reserve," the editor replied: It is our opinion that upon landing, every VFR flight should have at least 30 minutes worth of fuel in the tanks. And if flying cross-country, shoul d the pilot need to tap into the required VFR fuel reserve, it constitutes an "emergency," and the pilot should be looking for the closest airport and gas pump. (Ideally, the pilot should have landed and refueled long be fore tapping into the 30-minute VFR reserve.) - Ed. Now looking at the Rotax performance charts I see something like 5.5 gph at 6,000 rpm and assuming a UL will be cruising at 63 mph, in still air one would have only 2.25 gal.'s of a full 5 gal. tank to fly off. That's only 27 minutes of flying time at that consumption rate. You couldn't ma ke a 30 mi. flight to a neighboring airport! I know that greatest enduran ce would be at a lower rpm but how big a difference? 4.5 gph @ 50 mph? What is your real world experience? Bob ======================== =========== -= - The Kolb-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:33:45 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fuel Reserve and UL's Ellery B/Gang: What rpm? Was that cruise power on a cross country? or flying around the patch? john hauck mkIII Titus, Alabama Bob when I had the firestar Fat but Clean with a 447 on it I was getting 3 to 3.3GPH @ 75MPH Ellery Batchelder Jr. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:33:45 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fuel Reserve and UL's Larry C/Gang: My single carb point ign 447 burned 3.5 to 3.75 gph at 5800 rpm cruise power on cross country flights. john hauck mkIII Titus, Alabama It might be the right chart, but the results are wrong. They just don't burn that much gas. Anyone had that kind of usage on a 447? Larry ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 05:47:03 PM PST US From: LEE CREECH Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Performance of a Bose headset on a Kolb (Rotax engines) DQpBIHBsdWcgaGVyZSBmb3IgdGhlIExpZ2h0c3BlZWQgcGFzc2l2ZSBoZWFkc2V0LCB3aGljaCBJ IGhhdmUgZm91bmQgdG8gYmUgdmVyeSBlZmZlY3RpdmUgZm9yIG5vaXNlIHJlZHVjdGlvbiBpbiBh IDItc3Ryb2tlIGVudmlyb25tZW50IChGaXJlc3RhciBJSSB3L1JvdGF4IDUwMykuICBUaGUgY2F2 ZWF0IGlzIGNvbXBhdGliaWxpdHkgd2l0aCBzb21lIHJhZGlvcy4gIA0KDQogDQoNCkxlZSAgIA0K DQoNCg0KDQoNCkZyb206IHRjbG9uZ29AYXR0Lm5ldA0KVG86IGtvbGItbGlzdEBtYXRyb25pY3Mu Y29tDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSRTogS29sYi1MaXN0OiBQZXJmb3JtYW5jZSBvZiBhIEJvc2UgaGVhZHNl dCBvbiBhIEtvbGIgKFJvdGF4IGVuZ2luZXMpDQpEYXRlOiBGcmksIDI2IEZlYiAyMDEwIDE3OjEx OjEyIC0wNTAwDQoNCj8gDQoNCkkgdHJpZWQgYSBzZXQgb2YgQm9zZSBpbiBteSBNS0lJSSB3aXRo IGEgNTgyIG9uIGl0IGFuZCB0aGV5IGRpZCBub3Qgd29yayB2ZXJ5IGdvb2QsIG5vaXNlIGlzIHRv IGhpZ2ggZnJlcXVlbmN5IGluIHRoZSBLb2xiLiBDb210cm9uaWNzIGhlYWRzZXRzIGFuZCBpbnRl cmNvbSBjb21ibyBzZXQgdXAgd29ya2VkIHdlbGwuICBUb20NCg0KLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNz YWdlLS0tLS0NCkZyb206IG93bmVyLWtvbGItbGlzdC1zZXJ2ZXJAbWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbSBbbWFp bHRvOm93bmVyLWtvbGItbGlzdC1zZXJ2ZXJAbWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbV1PbiBCZWhhbGYgT2YgTWFo ZXNoIEl5ZXINClNlbnQ6IEZyaWRheSwgRmVicnVhcnkgMjYsIDIwMTAgMToyMyBQTQ0KVG86IGtv bGItbGlzdEBtYXRyb25pY3MuY29tDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBLb2xiLUxpc3Q6IFBlcmZvcm1hbmNlIG9m IGEgQm9zZSBoZWFkc2V0IG9uIGEgS29sYiAoUm90YXggZW5naW5lcykNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQoNCkRl YXIgS29sYmVycywgDQoNCkkgd2FudGVkIHRvIGtub3cgeW91ciB2aWV3cyBvbiB0aGUgcGVyZm9y bWFuY2Ugb2YgYSBCb3NlIEhlYWRzZXQgb24gUm90YXggZW5naW5lcyBpbiBjYXNlIGFueW9uZSBo YXMgdXNlZCBpdC4gDQoNCkkgcHJlc2VudGx5IGZseSB3aXRoIGEgTGlnaHRzcGVlZCBYQyBhbmQg aXQgcGVyZm9ybXMgZ29vZCBib3RoIG9uIHRoZSBLb2xiIGFuZCBHQSBhaXJjcmFmdCwgYnV0IGlm IHRoZSBCb3NlIGlzIHJlYWxseSBxdWlldCwgSSB3YXMgcGxhbm5pbmcgdG8gdXBncmFkZS4gQW55 IGZlZWRiYWNrIGlzIGFwcHJlY2lhdGVkLiANCg0KICANCg0KVGhhbmtzLCANCg0KTWFoZXNoIEl5 ZXIgDQoNCktvbGIgRlMtMiwgDQoNCk9yZWdvbi4gDQoNClRoZSBqb3kgb2YgRmxpZ2h0IO+/ve+/ vU5vdGhpbmcgY29tZXMgY2xvc2VyLCBpdO+/vXMgYSByb21hbmNlIGZvciBsaWZlISANCg0KICAN Cg0KDQoNCmhyZWY9Imh0dHA6Ly93d3cubWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbS9OYXZpZ2F0b3I/S29sYi1MaXN0 Ij5odHRwOi8vd3d3Lm1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20vTmF2aWdhdG9yP0tvbGItTGlzdA0KaHJlZj0iaHR0 cDovL2ZvcnVtcy5tYXRyb25pY3MuY29tIj5odHRwOi8vZm9ydW1zLm1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20NCmhy ZWY9Imh0dHA6Ly93d3cubWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbS9jb250cmlidXRpb24iPmh0dHA6Ly93d3cubWF0 cm9uaWNzLmNvbS9jDQoNCg0KDQpJIGFtIHVzaW5nIHRoZSBGcmVlIHZlcnNpb24gb2YgU1BBTWZp Z2h0ZXIuDQpXZSBhcmUgYSBjb21tdW5pdHkgb2YgNiBtaWxsaW9uIHVzZXJzIGZpZ2h0aW5nIHNw YW0uDQpTUEFNZmlnaHRlciBoYXMgcmVtb3ZlZCAyMzI5IG9mIG15IHNwYW0gZW1haWxzIHRvIGRh dGUuDQpUaGUgUHJvZmVzc2lvbmFsIHZlcnNpb24gZG9lcyBub3QgaGF2ZSB0aGlzIG1lc3NhZ2Uu DQoNCg0KXy09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT0NCl8tPSAgICAgICAgICAtIFRoZSBLb2xiLUxpc3QgRW1haWwgRm9ydW0gLQ0K Xy09IFVzZSB0aGUgTWF0cm9uaWNzIExpc3QgRmVhdHVyZXMgTmF2aWdhdG9yIHRvIGJyb3dzZQ0K Xy09IHRoZSBtYW55IExpc3QgdXRpbGl0aWVzIHN1Y2ggYXMgTGlzdCBVbi9TdWJzY3JpcHRpb24s DQpfLT0gQXJjaGl2ZSBTZWFyY2ggJiBEb3dubG9hZCwgNy1EYXkgQnJvd3NlLCBDaGF0LCBGQVEs DQpfLT0gUGhvdG9zaGFyZSwgYW5kIG11Y2ggbXVjaCBtb3JlOg0KXy09DQpfLT0gICAtLT4gaHR0 cDovL3d3dy5tYXRyb25pY3MuY29tL05hdmlnYXRvcj9Lb2xiLUxpc3QNCl8tPQ0KXy09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT0NCl8t PSAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIC0gTUFUUk9OSUNTIFdFQiBGT1JVTVMgLQ0KXy09IFNhbWUgZ3JlYXQg Y29udGVudCBhbHNvIGF2YWlsYWJsZSB2aWEgdGhlIFdlYiBGb3J1bXMhDQpfLT0NCl8tPSAgIC0t PiBodHRwOi8vZm9ydW1zLm1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20NCl8tPQ0KXy09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT0NCl8tPSAgICAgICAgICAg ICAtIExpc3QgQ29udHJpYnV0aW9uIFdlYiBTaXRlIC0NCl8tPSAgVGhhbmsgeW91IGZvciB5b3Vy IGdlbmVyb3VzIHN1cHBvcnQhDQpfLT0gICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAtTWF0 dCBEcmFsbGUsIExpc3QgQWRtaW4uDQpfLT0gICAtLT4gaHR0cDovL3d3dy5tYXRyb25pY3MuY29t L2NvbnRyaWJ1dGlvbg0KXy09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT0NCg0KIAkJIAkgICAJCSAgDQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KSG90bWFpbDog VHJ1c3RlZCBlbWFpbCB3aXRoIE1pY3Jvc29mdOKAmXMgcG93ZXJmdWwgU1BBTSBwcm90ZWN0aW9u Lg0KaHR0cDovL2Nsay5hdGRtdC5jb20vR0JML2dvLzIwMTQ2OTIyNi9kaXJlY3QvMDEv ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 05:50:30 PM PST US From: Herb Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fuel Reserve and UL's I have my logs and they indicate anywhere from 2.3 to 3.3 gph 447 on a firefly...with an empty wt of 292 lbs... ...Herb At 06:32 PM 2/26/2010, you wrote: >It might be the right chart, but the results are wrong. They just >don't burn that much gas. Anyone had that kind of usage on a 447? I >am not experienced in a Firefly, but I can't see you using that >amount of fuel at any setting under 6200. You should be able to fly >60 to 70 miles and still have a gallon of fuel left. > >Your best bet would be to do some checking on your own before you >wander off to MV. I would take it up and fly around in the pattern, >same altitude, same setting, timing your flight, land and check the >fuel used. If there is no way to monitor the fuel used, start with a >30 minute flight. Once you figure out your consumption at say 6000 >RPM, then you can check to see what setting will conserve the most >fuel and still give you a suitable power setting. >Larry > > >Note: If you forward this email, please delete the forwarding >history, which includes my email address. >----- Original Message ----- >From: Bob Kravis >To: kolb-list@matronics.com >Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 4:25 PM >Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fuel Reserve and UL's > >Larry, >Here's the chart I was looking at (see attached). >Bob > >On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 5:47 PM, Bob Kravis ><bob.kravis@gmail.com> wrote: >I was reading through the AOPA site because I had a question about >fuel reserve and flight distance in a 447 powered UL. In response >to a letter to the editor questioning the necessity of landing with >"adequate reserve," the editor replied: >It is our opinion that upon landing, every VFR flight should have at >least 30 minutes worth of fuel in the tanks. And if flying >cross-country, should the pilot need to tap into the required VFR >fuel reserve, it constitutes an "emergency," and the pilot should be >looking for the closest airport and gas pump. (Ideally, the pilot >should have landed and refueled long before tapping into the >30-minute VFR reserve.) - Ed. >Now looking at the Rotax performance charts I see something like 5.5 >gph at 6,000 rpm and assuming a UL will be cruising at 63 mph, in >still air one would have only 2.25 gal.'s of a full 5 gal. tank to >fly off. That's only 27 minutes of flying time at that consumption >rate. You couldn't make a 30 mi. flight to a neighboring >airport! I know that greatest endurance would be at a lower rpm but >how big a difference? 4.5 gph @ 50 mph? >What is your real world experience? >Bob > > >get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > >tp://forums.matronics.com > >_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > >---------- >- Release Date: 02/26/10 07:34:00 > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 05:51:29 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Kolb-List: baggage compartment When I build the new fuel tank behind the seat on my UltraStar, I'm going to put a baggage compartment in the space where the original tanks were in front of the seat. I'm still debating how to make it. Thought are thin (1/8") plywood, fiberglassed over, or foamboard and glass, or plywood without glass, or aluminum and pop rivets. I'm leaning towards the aluminum at the moment, since I have some leftover Alclad and angle stock laying around. Any other suggestions? I intend to make it at least partially openable in flight. I've also thought of making it easily removable, and adding a handle, so I can call it a custom suitcase, not part of the empty weight of my Part 103 aircraft. -Dana -- But it's NOT an ASSAULT Weapon, it's a DEFENSE weapon! ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 05:51:30 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fuel Reserve and UL's At 08:07 PM 2/26/2010, Ellery Batchelder Jr wrote: >Bob when I had the firestar Fat but Clean with a 447 on it I was getting 3 >to 3.3GPH @ 75MPH My US with the Cuyuna burns 3.3 gph at cruise (56-5800 rpm). -Dana -- But it's NOT an ASSAULT Weapon, it's a DEFENSE weapon! ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 06:16:43 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Fuel Reserve and UL's From: "Richard Pike" This is why (IMO) bigger 2 strokes are better. I have a 582 in my MKIII, and at 65 mph and 5300 rpm, it burns about 4 gph or a hair less. Ed has a 582 on his FSII, and at the same speed he turns 5,000 and burns about 3.6 gph. When I flew to Oshkosh years ago, Ed & Dave had Drifters with 503's. To stay slow enough to not run away from the Drifters, I was turning the 532 about 5,000, they were running around 5,600 rpm. I consistently used less fuel than they did, even though I had dual carbs and they each just had one. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288435#288435 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 06:19:30 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fuel Reserve and UL's My Cuyuna ULII02 burned 3.5 gph at 5800 rpm on cross country flights. Any aircraft flying around the patch, shooting take offs and landings will burn much less than they do on a cross country. Many new pilots are surprised when the find out their engines are burning more than they thought they would. john hauck mkIII Titus, Alabama My US with the Cuyuna burns 3.3 gph at cruise (56-5800 rpm). -Dana ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 06:43:08 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Fuel Reserve and UL's This is why (IMO) bigger 2 strokes are better. I have a 582 in my MKIII, and at 65 mph and 5300 rpm, it burns about 4 gph or a hair less. Ed has a 582 on his FSII, and at the same speed he turns 5,000 and burns about 3.6 gph. When I flew to Oshkosh years ago, Ed & Dave had Drifters with 503's. To stay slow enough to not run away from the Drifters, I was turning the 532 about 5,000, they were running around 5,600 rpm. I consistently used less fuel than they did, even though I had dual carbs and they each just had one. Richard Pike Richard P/Gang: I flew all my two strokes at 5800 rpm cruise. My 582 powered mkIII cruised 80 mph at 5800 rpm and burned 5.5 gph. My 447 powered FS cruised (can not remember the cruise speed) at 5800 rpm and burned 3.5 to 3.75 gph. My ULII02 powered US cruised (can not remember the cruise speed) at 5800 rpm and burned 3.5 gph. My 912UL powered mkIII cruised 85 mph at 5,000 rpm and burned 4.0 gph. My 912ULS powered mkIII cruises at 88 mph at 5,000 rpm and burns 5.0 gph. I flew/fly all my two and four stroke engines at aprx'ly 75% power. They all were happy at that power setting and the airplanes and I were too. john hauck mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 06:45:15 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fuel Reserve and UL's Didn't finish the sentence below in my previous. "Many new pilots are surprised when they find out their engines are burning more during an actual longer cross country than they thought they would. john hauck mkIII Titus, Alabama Many new pilots are surprised when the find out their engines are burning more than they thought they would. ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 06:59:33 PM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fuel Reserve and UL's Bob, When I had a 447 mounted on the FireFly, I flew it 108 mile round trips to my EAA Chapter meetings. The average for nine trips is given below. 5.71 Gallons burned per round trip MPG - 18.9 Air Time - 112 minutes GPH - 3.06 4/4.5 gallon endurance - 78/88 minutes Speed ground to ground - 57.9 mph 4/4.5 gallon range - 75/85 miles I hope this helps you out. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 07:08:56 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fuel Reserve and UL's When I had a 447 mounted on the FireFly, I flew it 108 mile round trips to my EAA Chapter meetings. The average for nine trips is given below. 5.71 Gallons burned per round trip MPG - 18.9 Air Time - 112 minutes GPH - 3.06 4/4.5 gallon endurance - 78/88 minutes Speed ground to ground - 57.9 mph 4/4.5 gallon range - 75/85 miles I hope this helps you out. Jack B. Hart FF004 ******************* Hi Guys: When you all are contributing info on fuel burn, need to include power setting, i.e., engine rpm. There is a great deal of difference in fuel burn on two and four stroke aircraft engines at low power settings and higher power settings. To me, 75% power is normal cruise. Seems most of the others who have contributed info on fuel burn, cruise much slower. john hauck mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 07:19:10 PM PST US From: chris davis Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fuel Reserve and UL's John /Ellery/gang I flew my very clean Firestar KXP for ten years with a 50 3 and mostly saw-3.5- gal/hr BUT-only saw 75mph on a long decent 65 m ph most of the time was my straight and level speed=0A-Chris Davis=0AKXP 503 492 hrs=0AGlider Pilot=0ADisabled from crash building Firefly =0A=0A=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: John Hauck =0ATo: kolb-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Fri, February 26, 2010 8:20:51 PM=0ASubject: Re: Kolb-List: Fuel Reserve and UL's=0A=0A=0AEllery B/Gang: =0A-=0AWhat rpm?=0A-=0AWas that cruise power on a cross country? or fly ing around the patch?=0A-=0Ajohn hauck=0AmkIII=0ATitus, Alabama=0A=0A=0A> Bob when I had the firestar Fat but Clean with a 447 on it I was getting 3 -======================== ============0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 08:42:13 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fuel Reserve and UL's From: Ellery Batchelder Jr that was Cruise on cross country if I remember correctly around 5600 RPM @ 6250 RPM in Flat level flight I could get 97.3 MPH around 4.5 GPH Ellery Batchelder Jr. -----Original Message----- From: John Hauck Sent: Fri, Feb 26, 2010 8:20 pm Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fuel Reserve and UL's Ellery B/Gang: What rpm? Was that cruise power on a cross country? or flying around the patch? john hauck mkIII Titus, Alabama Bob when I had the firestar Fat but Clean with a 447 on it I was getting 3 to 3.3GPH @ 75MPH Ellery Batchelder Jr. ======================== =========== -= - The Kolb-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 09:11:49 PM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fuel Reserve and UL's Bob It really depends on the situation. Determine YOUR fuel burn. If you test your fuel system so you know when fuel runs out and you know your fuel gage is always accurate yes you can cut the minimums a bit. I say that but again it depends on what you are doing. I had a cross country flight in the UP of Michigan where there was no where to land. I was less than 2 miles to my fuel stop and I ran into a wall of fog. I had to turn around and fly almost an hour to find another runway. I have the standard 10 gallon tanks. When traveling I add a 6 gallon aux tank which I transfer in flight as soon as I can. I plan my fuel stops so that I have no less than 5 gallons on board and I burn 4 gal./hr. Running out of fuel in the air is a REALLY STUPID thing to do. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Kravis To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 5:47 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Fuel Reserve and UL's I was reading through the AOPA site because I had a question about fuel reserve and flight distance in a 447 powered UL. In response to a letter to the editor questioning the necessity of landing with "adequate reserve," the editor replied: It is our opinion that upon landing, every VFR flight should have at least 30 minutes worth of fuel in the tanks. And if flying cross-country, should the pilot need to tap into the required VFR fuel reserve, it constitutes an "emergency," and the pilot should be looking for the closest airport and gas pump. (Ideally, the pilot should have landed and refueled long before tapping into the 30-minute VFR reserve.) - Ed. Now looking at the Rotax performance charts I see something like 5.5 gph at 6,000 rpm and assuming a UL will be cruising at 63 mph, in still air one would have only 2.25 gal.'s of a full 5 gal. tank to fly off. That's only 27 minutes of flying time at that consumption rate. You couldn't make a 30 mi. flight to a neighboring airport! I know that greatest endurance would be at a lower rpm but how big a difference? 4.5 gph @ 50 mph? What is your real world experience? Bob ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:34 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Fuel Reserve and UL's From: "Richard Pike" John Hauck wrote: > > > Richard P/Gang: > > I flew all my two strokes at 5800 rpm cruise. > > My 582 powered mkIII cruised 80 mph at 5800 rpm and burned 5.5 gph. > > My 447 powered FS cruised (can not remember the cruise speed) at 5800 rpm > and burned 3.5 to 3.75 gph. > > My ULII02 powered US cruised (can not remember the cruise speed) at 5800 rpm > and burned 3.5 gph. > > My 912UL powered mkIII cruised 85 mph at 5,000 rpm and burned 4.0 gph. > > My 912ULS powered mkIII cruises at 88 mph at 5,000 rpm and burns 5.0 gph. > > I flew/fly all my two and four stroke engines at aprx'ly 75% power. They > all were happy at that power setting and the airplanes and I were too. > > john hauck > mkIII > Titus, Alabama Happy for ya. If I was going half way across the country, I would ignore how much gas it burns and how comparatively unpleasant the ride is at 80 and run it at 5800 rpm too. Going to Oshkosh in the MKIII along with two pokey 503 powered Maxair Drifters had me running at 5,000 rpm and took 3 days. (groan) But since I am usually only going 30 or 40 miles to drop in on a local airstrip, and a MKIII with it's light wing loading enjoys leaping briskly about on a thermally day, 60 or 65 is a lot nicer, saves gas, and saves me from barfing. Since I only fly for pleasure, not to get somewhere, rolling with the thermal punches at 65 is nicer than playing "Test the shoulder harness" at 80. Aint it great? We can all butter our bread as it suits us. And since crankshaft bearing loads go up exponentially with RPM, I am satisfied that that a correctly propped 2 stroke will be happy anywhere in the RPM range, and the crank will last longer at 5,300 than at 5,800. I treat my 582 gently and with respect and I expect it to do the same for me. :) (John, I think we've had this dance before, and still can't seem to agree if it's a Cha-Cha or a Foxtrot... Hang in there buddy - two strokes are evil and must be PUNISHED!) Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288463#288463 ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 10:01:04 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Fuel Reserve and UL's > I flew all my two strokes at 5800 rpm cruise. > > > john hauck > mkIII > Titus, Alabama (John, I think we've had this dance before, and still can't seem to agree if it's a Cha-Cha or a Foxtrot... Hang in there buddy - two strokes are evil and must be PUNISHED!) Richard Pike ************* Richard P/Gang: Sorry about that. I think you took my reply the wrong way. I was not arguing with nor trying to out do you. Simply stating the way I flew and currently fly my airplanes. I fly normal cruise if I fly 11 miles from my strip to Wetumpka Airport. I fly normal cruise if I fly around the traffic pattern. There is more than one way to fly an airplane. john hauck mkIII Titus, Alabama ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.