Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:12 AM - Re: FSII rebuild - aileron hinges (Thom Riddle)
2. 06:04 AM - Re: FSII rebuild - aileron hinges (robert bean)
3. 06:35 AM - Re: FSII rebuild - aileron hinges (Richard Pike)
4. 06:54 AM - FSII rebuild (Lanny Fetterman)
5. 09:50 AM - Re: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic (George Bearden)
6. 01:08 PM - Re: Re: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic (Jack B. Hart)
7. 05:01 PM - Re: Re: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic (Mike Welch)
8. 05:23 PM - Re: Re: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic (John Hauck)
9. 05:57 PM - Re: Re: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic (robert bean)
10. 06:23 PM - Re: FSII rebuild (Richard Pike)
11. 08:09 PM - Re: Re: alum gear legs ()
Message 1
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: FSII rebuild - aileron hinges |
Richard,
I'm glad you posted photos because your prose did not paint an accurate picture
in my mind (my mind's fault I'm sure). Looking back at the description of what
you are doing AFTER seeing the photos makes the words make sense. Sure am glad
we have a digital world today that makes all this so easy and cheap.
do not archive
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory.
- Friedrich Engels
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=291536#291536
Message 2
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: FSII rebuild - aileron hinges |
Was that done with a "Tennessee Straight edge"? :) Will you pull (aluminum)
rivets into the empty holes for cosmetic reasons?
BB
do not archive
On 23, Mar 2010, at 10:25 PM, Richard Pike wrote:
>
> Update on the rebuild of the donor wing that came back from Florida to rebuild
the FSII. Used the original tip gussets, and even though the holes were not
well aligned, used them instead of trying to make new ones, since the rivet holes
were not wallowed out and everything could be made to fit well.
>
> But there was a more serious problem: the old aileron hinges were missing, and
from the looks of the drilled out rivet holes, it is not hard to imagine why.
Some of the holes are wallowed out to 5/32", oblong, etc. Thought about trying
to match drill all the holes and go to 5/32" rivets, but that sounded like
an awful lot of work for meager rewards.
>
> Decided instead to just relocate the hinge closest to the wing root, move it
in a few inches to a new spot, forget using a center hinge and use two additional
hinges spaced evenly in between the inboard hinge and the tip instead, but
the wing tip hinge itself was a bit more problematic. You can't really move the
hinge elsewhere, you have to keep it where it belongs. So I copied Vince Nicely's
method of using double loaded hinges that go in two directions, that way
even if your tubing is a bit Swiss cheesed, you still spread the load around
pretty well.
>
> One normal sized hinge in the middle, holes spaced to fit between the original
holes (gag - hate it, but what can you do?) and then a smaller hinge at either
end going to the other part of the tube to eliminate flex bending of the hinge
and add support to the whole arrangement. Not the ideal way, but ideally -
the airplane would never have been rolled up into a ball last year and none of
this would be happening.
>
> Richard Pike
> MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=291513#291513
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/hng1_935.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/hng2_169.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/hng3_503.jpg
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: FSII rebuild - aileron hinges |
slyck(at)frontiernet.net wrote:
> Was that done with a "Tennessee Straight edge"? :) Will you pull (aluminum)
rivets into the empty holes for cosmetic reasons?
> BB
>
I knew this would happen...
The wandering row of rivets in the gusset were already in the gusset when I pulled
it out of the parts box that came with the basket case wing, and it seemed
better to put the original gusset back in place and refill the original holes
than to make more holes just to have things straight and proper.
Will probably not refill the left over holes, they will be covered by at least
two layers of fabric anyway, you won't see them.
It is what it is, a donor wing that will end up being airworthy. And after it's
painted, all will be forgiven. (Or at least hidden...)
PS: Sorry I didn't have any way to take a picture of Steven Greene's MKIII before
it was covered. His Tennessee straight edge must have been a laser, never saw
such pretty rivet rows in my life. You could sight down the inside of his main
spar or anywhere else and just feel unworthy.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=291545#291545
Message 4
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Richard, The solution to your problem is very clever, I would never
have thought about splitting the hinge. Did you consider putting a
short sleeve inside the old tube? If so, why didn`t you go that
route? Lanny FSII
Message 5
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic |
> Failure at that bend location is eminent!
Not quite certain of that I think. Certainly worth watching though.
> This last set I made up <snip> has been straightened three times
john hauck
I have a much modified 4x4. I suppose I abuse it. I call it my chew-toy. I do rock-crawling,
dune-bashing, jumps, tows, sand drags, etc. I have regeared the
tranny and the t-case. I have pumped up the engine, put lockers in the diffs,
and run big gnarly tires. The suspension is nothing like stock.
The torque I send to the tires bends springs all the time. It's just the front
springs now since I put a tract bar in the rear. I straighten them all the time
on my press. I haven't had to replace a leaf yet. The potential consequences
of a failure are profound, maybe I better inspect them more often.
It is true that bending a spring past the 'elastic deformation' into the 'plastic'
introduces dislocations [1] in the atomic metalic matrix of the metal. This
has a tendency to make the metal stiffer at that point. It is called work-hardedning.
We use this technique all the time in metal products.
If you put a coat hanger into your wood stove for a few hours, you won't be able
to use it as a coat hanger anymore. It will not support a coat! You will have
'annealed' it, and allowed these dislocations to relax back into a smooth matrix,
which bends easily.
[1] like an earthquake fault sorta. A break in the crystaline structure. It tends
to jam the movement of one row of atoms against the other. Like putting a monkey
wrench in the gears or nailing two boards together. As in the carbon atoms
in steel... it works similarly.
GeoB
Message 6
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic |
At 09:39 AM 3/24/10 -0700, you wrote:
>
>> Failure at that bend location is eminent!
>
>Not quite certain of that I think. Certainly worth watching though.
>
Geo & Folks,
Each time you over bend into the plastic region work hardening takes place.
When you straighten the leg the over stretched portion does not shrink back
into place due to the work hardening. The opposite side does the stretching
into the plastic region so that the leg can be straighten. And so now both
sides are work hardened.
If you bend the leg again in the same manner as the leg was imposed to
before, more than likely, it will bend in the region just above over below
the previous area of work hardening. If the bending is minor, this will let
the leg be straightened several times, until the work hardened area must
bend again. And then the process will repeat and can be repeated until the
work hardened area becomes brittle, and then failure will occur.
FWIW
Jack B Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 7
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic |
>And then the process will repeat and can be repeated until the
> work hardened area becomes brittle=2C and then failure will occur.
> FWIW
>
> Jack B Hart FF004
> Winchester=2C IN
Jack=2C George and group=2C
I think you are both saying basically what I said. But=2C I made a blank
et statement "you can't do it."
The fact is...you can.
The only question is=3B for how long=2C and how many times? That would d
epend=2C of course=2C on a million variables that are too lengthy to get i
nto.
So=2C suffice to say this: When you bend hardened steel beyond it's elas
ticity=2C and then you bend it back=2C bad ju-ju may happen!!
There=2C I cleared that one up!!
Best regards=2C
Mike Welch
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your
inbox.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID27925::T:WLMTAGL:O
N:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:032010_2
Message 8
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic |
So, suffice to say this: When you bend hardened steel beyond it's
elasticity, and then you bend it back, bad ju-ju may happen!!
There, I cleared that one up!!
Best regards,
Mike Welch
Mike W/Gang:
I think you guys missed my point.
I am having pretty good success with gear legs I built in 2001. Made two
flights to Alaska on these legs. Bent them enough to pull and straighten
them three times. They have been stressed many times in the last 9 years.
I understand the theory of work hardening. In the case of my gear legs, I
am getting great service from them, even after "really" pranging them last
May in NM for the fourth time.
If I thought my gear legs were going to break next time I taxied across my
cow pasture, I'd go build some new ones. I think these legs will outlast
you and me.
john hauck
mkIII - 6,733 landings (Probably 3,000 on present gear legs.)
Titus, Alabama
Message 9
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic |
I think the concept that Jack made is enlightening. The new hard point
will not flex, so outboard in both directions
new areas become the default flex points until they too will not flex,
and on, until the whole system yields at the most
vulnerable point because there is no more flexible area left.
Out of curiosity, a report of the actual break location of both the
steel and aluminum legs would be interesting.
BB
On 24, Mar 2010, at 5:00 PM, Mike Welch wrote:
> >And then the process will repeat and can be repeated until the
> > work hardened area becomes brittle, and then failure will occur.
> > FWIW
> >
> > Jack B Hart FF004
> > Winchester, IN
>
> Jack, George and group,
>
> I think you are both saying basically what I said. But, I made a
blanket statement "you can't do it."
> The fact is...you can.
>
> The only question is; for how long, and how many times? That would
depend, of course, on a million variables that are too lengthy to get
into.
>
> So, suffice to say this: When you bend hardened steel beyond it's
elasticity, and then you bend it back, bad ju-ju may happen!!
>
> There, I cleared that one up!!
>
> Best regards,
> Mike Welch
>
>
>
>
> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from
your inbox. Sign up now.
>
>
>
>
Message 10
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: FSII rebuild |
No, it is at the tip and doesn't need much, it just needs not to have the hinge
flexing around. And splitting the hinge and attaching it is easy.
You drill & cleco the usual hinge normally, using an extra long piece of hinge
wire scrap. Then take what ever extra hinge additions you plan to use, (pre-drilled
for the rivet holes) slide it on the hinge wire, and just let it hang down
between the rear spar and the aileron tube. (Working with the wing upside down
as the plans show) Push the little hinge segment up against the tube, & where
ever it goes, that's where it needs to be. Drill it, cleco it, you're done.
Spent the day in the garage working on mowers, tillers, etc. and had to stand the
wing up out of the way, so here is what the hinge setup looks like from the
other side. You are looking down from the top of the wing, and the aileron is
as if it were hanging straight down.
One thing is for sure: this type hinge setup does not flex. Period.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=291627#291627
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1150995_large_114.jpg
Message 11
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: alum gear legs |
My addition of very strong springs which pull from the upper part of the gear leg
to the axle seem to take the intial load of a hard landing. They are partially
stretched even when airborne. So far, the gear leg has not bent. Still
trying to land gently. Vic in Sacramento
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|