---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 03/24/10: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:12 AM - Re: FSII rebuild - aileron hinges (Thom Riddle) 2. 06:04 AM - Re: FSII rebuild - aileron hinges (robert bean) 3. 06:35 AM - Re: FSII rebuild - aileron hinges (Richard Pike) 4. 06:54 AM - FSII rebuild (Lanny Fetterman) 5. 09:50 AM - Re: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic (George Bearden) 6. 01:08 PM - Re: Re: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic (Jack B. Hart) 7. 05:01 PM - Re: Re: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic (Mike Welch) 8. 05:23 PM - Re: Re: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic (John Hauck) 9. 05:57 PM - Re: Re: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic (robert bean) 10. 06:23 PM - Re: FSII rebuild (Richard Pike) 11. 08:09 PM - Re: Re: alum gear legs () ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:12:54 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: FSII rebuild - aileron hinges From: "Thom Riddle" Richard, I'm glad you posted photos because your prose did not paint an accurate picture in my mind (my mind's fault I'm sure). Looking back at the description of what you are doing AFTER seeing the photos makes the words make sense. Sure am glad we have a digital world today that makes all this so easy and cheap. do not archive -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY Kolb Slingshot SS-021 Jabiru 2200A #1574 Tennessee Prop 64x32 An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory. - Friedrich Engels Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=291536#291536 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:38 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FSII rebuild - aileron hinges From: robert bean Was that done with a "Tennessee Straight edge"? :) Will you pull (aluminum) rivets into the empty holes for cosmetic reasons? BB do not archive On 23, Mar 2010, at 10:25 PM, Richard Pike wrote: > > Update on the rebuild of the donor wing that came back from Florida to rebuild the FSII. Used the original tip gussets, and even though the holes were not well aligned, used them instead of trying to make new ones, since the rivet holes were not wallowed out and everything could be made to fit well. > > But there was a more serious problem: the old aileron hinges were missing, and from the looks of the drilled out rivet holes, it is not hard to imagine why. Some of the holes are wallowed out to 5/32", oblong, etc. Thought about trying to match drill all the holes and go to 5/32" rivets, but that sounded like an awful lot of work for meager rewards. > > Decided instead to just relocate the hinge closest to the wing root, move it in a few inches to a new spot, forget using a center hinge and use two additional hinges spaced evenly in between the inboard hinge and the tip instead, but the wing tip hinge itself was a bit more problematic. You can't really move the hinge elsewhere, you have to keep it where it belongs. So I copied Vince Nicely's method of using double loaded hinges that go in two directions, that way even if your tubing is a bit Swiss cheesed, you still spread the load around pretty well. > > One normal sized hinge in the middle, holes spaced to fit between the original holes (gag - hate it, but what can you do?) and then a smaller hinge at either end going to the other part of the tube to eliminate flex bending of the hinge and add support to the whole arrangement. Not the ideal way, but ideally - the airplane would never have been rolled up into a ball last year and none of this would be happening. > > Richard Pike > MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=291513#291513 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/hng1_935.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/hng2_169.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/hng3_503.jpg > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:35:03 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: FSII rebuild - aileron hinges From: "Richard Pike" slyck(at)frontiernet.net wrote: > Was that done with a "Tennessee Straight edge"? :) Will you pull (aluminum) rivets into the empty holes for cosmetic reasons? > BB > I knew this would happen... The wandering row of rivets in the gusset were already in the gusset when I pulled it out of the parts box that came with the basket case wing, and it seemed better to put the original gusset back in place and refill the original holes than to make more holes just to have things straight and proper. Will probably not refill the left over holes, they will be covered by at least two layers of fabric anyway, you won't see them. It is what it is, a donor wing that will end up being airworthy. And after it's painted, all will be forgiven. (Or at least hidden...) PS: Sorry I didn't have any way to take a picture of Steven Greene's MKIII before it was covered. His Tennessee straight edge must have been a laser, never saw such pretty rivet rows in my life. You could sight down the inside of his main spar or anywhere else and just feel unworthy. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=291545#291545 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:54:37 AM PST US From: Lanny Fetterman Subject: Kolb-List: FSII rebuild Richard, The solution to your problem is very clever, I would never have thought about splitting the hinge. Did you consider putting a short sleeve inside the old tube? If so, why didn`t you go that route? Lanny FSII ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:50:40 AM PST US From: George Bearden Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic > Failure at that bend location is eminent! Not quite certain of that I think. Certainly worth watching though. > This last set I made up has been straightened three times john hauck I have a much modified 4x4. I suppose I abuse it. I call it my chew-toy. I do rock-crawling, dune-bashing, jumps, tows, sand drags, etc. I have regeared the tranny and the t-case. I have pumped up the engine, put lockers in the diffs, and run big gnarly tires. The suspension is nothing like stock. The torque I send to the tires bends springs all the time. It's just the front springs now since I put a tract bar in the rear. I straighten them all the time on my press. I haven't had to replace a leaf yet. The potential consequences of a failure are profound, maybe I better inspect them more often. It is true that bending a spring past the 'elastic deformation' into the 'plastic' introduces dislocations [1] in the atomic metalic matrix of the metal. This has a tendency to make the metal stiffer at that point. It is called work-hardedning. We use this technique all the time in metal products. If you put a coat hanger into your wood stove for a few hours, you won't be able to use it as a coat hanger anymore. It will not support a coat! You will have 'annealed' it, and allowed these dislocations to relax back into a smooth matrix, which bends easily. [1] like an earthquake fault sorta. A break in the crystaline structure. It tends to jam the movement of one row of atoms against the other. Like putting a monkey wrench in the gears or nailing two boards together. As in the carbon atoms in steel... it works similarly. GeoB ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:08:24 PM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic At 09:39 AM 3/24/10 -0700, you wrote: > >> Failure at that bend location is eminent! > >Not quite certain of that I think. Certainly worth watching though. > Geo & Folks, Each time you over bend into the plastic region work hardening takes place. When you straighten the leg the over stretched portion does not shrink back into place due to the work hardening. The opposite side does the stretching into the plastic region so that the leg can be straighten. And so now both sides are work hardened. If you bend the leg again in the same manner as the leg was imposed to before, more than likely, it will bend in the region just above over below the previous area of work hardening. If the bending is minor, this will let the leg be straightened several times, until the work hardened area must bend again. And then the process will repeat and can be repeated until the work hardened area becomes brittle, and then failure will occur. FWIW Jack B Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:01:06 PM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic >And then the process will repeat and can be repeated until the > work hardened area becomes brittle=2C and then failure will occur. > FWIW > > Jack B Hart FF004 > Winchester=2C IN Jack=2C George and group=2C I think you are both saying basically what I said. But=2C I made a blank et statement "you can't do it." The fact is...you can. The only question is=3B for how long=2C and how many times? That would d epend=2C of course=2C on a million variables that are too lengthy to get i nto. So=2C suffice to say this: When you bend hardened steel beyond it's elas ticity=2C and then you bend it back=2C bad ju-ju may happen!! There=2C I cleared that one up!! Best regards=2C Mike Welch _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID27925::T:WLMTAGL:O N:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:032010_2 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:23:47 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic So, suffice to say this: When you bend hardened steel beyond it's elasticity, and then you bend it back, bad ju-ju may happen!! There, I cleared that one up!! Best regards, Mike Welch Mike W/Gang: I think you guys missed my point. I am having pretty good success with gear legs I built in 2001. Made two flights to Alaska on these legs. Bent them enough to pull and straighten them three times. They have been stressed many times in the last 9 years. I understand the theory of work hardening. In the case of my gear legs, I am getting great service from them, even after "really" pranging them last May in NM for the fourth time. If I thought my gear legs were going to break next time I taxied across my cow pasture, I'd go build some new ones. I think these legs will outlast you and me. john hauck mkIII - 6,733 landings (Probably 3,000 on present gear legs.) Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:57:34 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic I think the concept that Jack made is enlightening. The new hard point will not flex, so outboard in both directions new areas become the default flex points until they too will not flex, and on, until the whole system yields at the most vulnerable point because there is no more flexible area left. Out of curiosity, a report of the actual break location of both the steel and aluminum legs would be interesting. BB On 24, Mar 2010, at 5:00 PM, Mike Welch wrote: > >And then the process will repeat and can be repeated until the > > work hardened area becomes brittle, and then failure will occur. > > FWIW > > > > Jack B Hart FF004 > > Winchester, IN > > Jack, George and group, > > I think you are both saying basically what I said. But, I made a blanket statement "you can't do it." > The fact is...you can. > > The only question is; for how long, and how many times? That would depend, of course, on a million variables that are too lengthy to get into. > > So, suffice to say this: When you bend hardened steel beyond it's elasticity, and then you bend it back, bad ju-ju may happen!! > > There, I cleared that one up!! > > Best regards, > Mike Welch > > > > > Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. Sign up now. > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:23:30 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: FSII rebuild From: "Richard Pike" No, it is at the tip and doesn't need much, it just needs not to have the hinge flexing around. And splitting the hinge and attaching it is easy. You drill & cleco the usual hinge normally, using an extra long piece of hinge wire scrap. Then take what ever extra hinge additions you plan to use, (pre-drilled for the rivet holes) slide it on the hinge wire, and just let it hang down between the rear spar and the aileron tube. (Working with the wing upside down as the plans show) Push the little hinge segment up against the tube, & where ever it goes, that's where it needs to be. Drill it, cleco it, you're done. Spent the day in the garage working on mowers, tillers, etc. and had to stand the wing up out of the way, so here is what the hinge setup looks like from the other side. You are looking down from the top of the wing, and the aileron is as if it were hanging straight down. One thing is for sure: this type hinge setup does not flex. Period. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=291627#291627 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1150995_large_114.jpg ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:09:10 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: alum gear legs My addition of very strong springs which pull from the upper part of the gear leg to the axle seem to take the intial load of a hard landing. They are partially stretched even when airborne. So far, the gear leg has not bent. Still trying to land gently. 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