Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:54 AM - Re: Re: Firefly Windshield (pj.ladd)
2. 04:03 AM - Pantene can (Eric Marenyi)
3. 04:44 AM - Re: Pantene can (william sullivan)
4. 07:33 AM - Re: Pantene hair spray can (russ kinne)
5. 10:20 AM - Re: Pantene can (Richard Pike)
6. 10:37 AM - Reinforcing the tip rib (Richard Pike)
7. 11:52 AM - Re: Reinforcing the tip rib (william sullivan)
8. 01:02 PM - Re: Re: Pantene can (Jeremy Casey)
9. 03:38 PM - Re: Reinforcing the tip rib (frank goodnight)
10. 06:12 PM - Re: Reinforcing the tip rib (Richard Pike)
11. 06:46 PM - Re: Reinforcing the tip rib (Richard Pike)
12. 06:51 PM - Re: Pantene can (Richard Pike)
13. 06:58 PM - Re: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic (Richard Pike)
14. 07:12 PM - Re: Re: Reinforcing the tip rib (Eugene Zimmerman)
15. 07:24 PM - Re: Re: Reinforcing the tip rib (Jack B. Hart)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Firefly Windshield |
low altitude turns and stalls stood out. >>
Hi Bill,
I shoudn`t waste your time.
With no research at all and a flying guess, you will find that stalls
and low atitude turns are the main killer in any type of flying or
aircraft you care to mention.
Cheers
Pat
Message 2
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I am having a hard time picturing what you are doing with the pantene
can. Do you have any pictures or can you explain in more detail? I am
intrigued!
Eric in NC
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 31, 2010, at 2:57 AM, Kolb-List Digest Server <kolb-list@matronics.com
> wrote:
> *
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> =================================================
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> ---
> Total Messages Posted Tue 03/30/10: 5
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
> 1. 06:31 PM - Dope & Fabric weight (Richard Pike)
> 2. 06:44 PM - Re: Dope and fabric weight (william sullivan)
> 3. 08:13 PM - Re: Dope & Fabric weight (robert bean)
> 4. 08:19 PM - Re: Dope and fabric weight (Richard Pike)
> 5. 08:29 PM - Pantene hair spray can (Richard Pike)
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 1
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 06:31:34 PM PST US
> Subject: Kolb-List: Dope & Fabric weight
> From: "Richard Pike" <richard@bcchapel.org>
>
>
> Just in case anybody else ever wondered what the paint and fabric
> weighs, tonight
> I stripped the fabric off the other wing as part of the rebuild of
> the FSII,
> and weighed it.
>
> 8.5 pounds. Stits process, by the book including silver, color coat,
> and a trim
> color. That was for the wing and the aileron.
>
> So probably around 25 pounds or so dope and fabric for a whole
> airplane?
>
> Richard Pike
> MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292433#292433
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 2
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 06:44:49 PM PST US
> From: william sullivan <williamtsullivan@att.net>
> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Dope and fabric weight
>
> - Richard- Was it Aerothane, or Poly Tone?- I understand that the
> Aerot
> hane (candy shell appearance) is much heavier.
> -
> -------------------------
> --------------------- Bill Sulliv
> an
> -------------------------
> --------------------- Windsor Loc
> ks, Ct.
> -------------------------
> --------------------- FS 447
>
> ________________________________ Message 3
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 08:13:35 PM PST US
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dope & Fabric weight
> From: robert bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
>
>
> That sounds about right. That stuff about the heavy paint is a myth
> unless you
> are talking jumbo jet.
> The majority of the weight in the can evaporates along with the
> thinner. Old
> fashioned lacquers are the lightest,
> butyrates in the middle,
> and epoxies and polymerizing paints like urethanes are the
> heaviest. There is
> no advantage with thick paint
> other than being shiny and washable. You could shoot a coat of
> clear dope on the
> rags and fly it away.
> BB
>
>
> On 30, Mar 2010, at 9:30 PM, Richard Pike wrote:
>
>>
>> Just in case anybody else ever wondered what the paint and fabric
>> weighs, tonight
> I stripped the fabric off the other wing as part of the rebuild of
> the FSII,
> and weighed it.
>>
>> 8.5 pounds. Stits process, by the book including silver, color
>> coat, and a trim
> color. That was for the wing and the aileron.
>>
>> So probably around 25 pounds or so dope and fabric for a whole
>> airplane?
>>
>> Richard Pike
>> MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292433#292433
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 4
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 08:19:28 PM PST US
> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Dope and fabric weight
> From: "Richard Pike" <richard@bcchapel.org>
>
>
> Poly bush, poly spray, poly whatever, the mat finish stuff.
>
> Richard Pike
> MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292466#292466
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 5
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 08:29:23 PM PST US
> Subject: Kolb-List: Pantene hair spray can
> From: "Richard Pike" <richard@bcchapel.org>
>
>
> Decided to put a strobe on each wingtip, but wanted a way to
> streamline it in,
> and also wanted a way to make the strobe easily removable in case it
> needed replacing.
> Went to the CVS drugstore, no luck, went next door to the Dollar Store
> - Bingo!
> Wandering around the Dollar Store with a Kuntzleman strobe and
> calipers pays off.
>
> The Pantene can was a perfect fit. Took it home, laid a brick on the
> nozzle (Take
> that, Gore! HA!) and when the can was empty, cut off the bottom and
> fit it
> in the wingtip. Will glue it in place with JBWeld, and then use
> fabric to blend
> it in.
>
> Will use the other end of the can on the other tip. The nav light
> will go just
> ahead of the strobe, ordered two 6" strips of 24 12V LED's off of
> ebay, will put
> those across the back of each tip for the white rear light.
>
> Richard Pike
> MKIII N420P (42oldPoops)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292469#292469
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1160002_small_125.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1160026_small_191.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1160039_small_929.jpg
>
>
Message 3
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Eric- Richard attached 3 photos to the bottom of his post.- Scroll down a
nd click on them.- Very clever, nice work.
-
-------------------------
---------------- Bill Sullivan
-------------------------
---------------- Windsor Locks, Ct.
-------------------------
---------------- FS 447
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Pantene hair spray can |
FWIW - when blending in protuberances to smooth contours and reduce
drag -- in boat construction we often use a "microballoon slurry"
which is a mix of VERY small glass bubbles, 'microspheres', mixed
with epoxy. It's very light since it's 85% air -- and very strong
too. Amazing stuff, easy to use, sandable, shapable. Smooth it with a
wet finger or paddle before it sets. See West Marine for details &
supplies.
And WEAR A MASK WHEN HANDLING! -- it's so fine it drifts in the air
like smoke, and you don't want to inhale it.
Aside from that, a great material.
Russ K
do not archive
On Mar 30, 2010, at 11:28 PM, Richard Pike wrote:
>
> Decided to put a strobe on each wingtip, but wanted a way to
> streamline it in, and also wanted a way to make the strobe easily
> removable in case it needed replacing. Went to the CVS drugstore,
> no luck, went next door to the Dollar Store - Bingo!
> Wandering around the Dollar Store with a Kuntzleman strobe and
> calipers pays off.
>
> The Pantene can was a perfect fit. Took it home, laid a brick on
> the nozzle (Take that, Gore! HA!) and when the can was empty, cut
> off the bottom and fit it in the wingtip. Will glue it in place
> with JBWeld, and then use fabric to blend it in.
>
> Will use the other end of the can on the other tip. The nav light
> will go just ahead of the strobe, ordered two 6" strips of 24 12V
> LED's off of ebay, will put those across the back of each tip for
> the white rear light.
>
> Richard Pike
> MKIII N420P (42oldPoops)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292469#292469
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1160002_small_125.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1160026_small_191.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1160039_small_929.jpg
>
>
Message 5
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[quote="marenyi(at)gmail.com"]I am having a hard time picturing what you are doing
with the pantene
can. Do you have any pictures or can you explain in more detail? I am
intrigued!
Eric in NC
Sent from my iPhone
[quote]
A picture is worth 1,000 words - it acts as a socket for the strobe to slide into.
First picture is starting in, 2nd is all the way in. A thin strip of silicone
seal will hold it in, and keep the water out. Won't use the tang on the bottom
of the strobe, but trying to take it off is a no-no.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292538#292538
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1160003_small_186.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1160021_small_646.jpg
Message 6
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| Subject: | Reinforcing the tip rib |
Enclosed are some pictures I took this morning of the tip rib of the damaged FSII
wing. Between the original wings and the donor wings, 3 out of 4 of the tip
ribs were damaged in this same fashion. (One wing was destroyed, so maybe we
shouldn't count that one)
You are looking at the top of the wing, notice how the thin aluminum web and 5/16"
tube buckles in between the angles - that is consistent, and I think a weak
spot. The aluminum angles along the top and bottom of the rib transmit the overload
into that unreinforced area and it buckles under the load.
What I will do before I close these wings up is add additional angles to attach
to the front and rear upper angles and which tie directly into the main spar,
I expect the spar can handle the torque load, because even on the destroyed wing,
the main spar was undamaged.
When I get to that point, will add more pictures.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292544#292544
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1160070_small_108.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1160076_small_165.jpg
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Reinforcing the tip rib |
- Richard- The damage to the tip rib looks like crash damage, and not wea
r and tear.- Are you sure that reinforcing it would be worthwhile?- If
it was hit again, wouldn't a reinforcement only transfer the damage to a mo
re expensive part?- Also, what keeps the wires from moving around and cha
fing inside the main spar?
-
-------------------------
----------------------- Bill
Sullivan
-------------------------
----------------------- Winds
or Locks, Ct.
-------------------------
----------------------- FS 44
7
Message 8
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Richard is that attached to the aileron? That sounds like a good way to
get aileron flutter? I remember you have first hand experience with
rudder flutter...so I'm sure you have thought this through already but
thought I'd bring it up...
Jeremy Casey
Kolb "builder" again...finally
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database
4989 (20100331) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Reinforcing the tip rib |
Hi Richard,
The pictures could have been a snapshot of my wing tip a couple of weeks ago. The
damage is almost
identical. In my case it was caused by a rather hard ground loop, where the rear
of the wing tip and the
aleron hit and was drug along the ground.Not because of any weakness ,just pilot
error.fwiw.
Frank Goodnight
Firestar 2
Brownsville TX
________________________________
From: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
Sent: Wed, March 31, 2010 12:37:15 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Reinforcing the tip rib
Enclosed are some pictures I took this morning of the tip rib of the damaged FSII
wing. Between the original wings and the donor wings, 3 out of 4 of the tip
ribs were damaged in this same fashion. (One wing was destroyed, so maybe we
shouldn't count that one)
You are looking at the top of the wing, notice how the thin aluminum web and 5/16"
tube buckles in between the angles - that is consistent, and I think a weak
spot. The aluminum angles along the top and bottom of the rib transmit the overload
into that unreinforced area and it buckles under the load.
What I will do before I close these wings up is add additional angles to attach
to the front and rear upper angles and which tie directly into the main spar,
I expect the spar can handle the torque load, because even on the destroyed wing,
the main spar was undamaged.
When I get to that point, will add more pictures.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292544#292544
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1160070_small_108.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1160076_small_165.jpg
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Reinforcing the tip rib |
I guess it depends on what each persons definition of weakness is. IMO, dragging
a wingtip and aileron ought to result in damage to the aileron and the back
corner of the wingtip at the trailing edge, not bend the tip rib. (Because if
you bend the tip rib, then you also bend the trailing edge and aileron tube, and
probably the tip braces, or at least that's how these were.)
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292590#292590
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Reinforcing the tip rib |
[quote="williamtsullivan(at)att.n"]Richard- The damage to the tip rib looks like
crash damage, and not wear and tear. Are you sure that reinforcing it would
be worthwhile? If it was hit again, wouldn't a reinforcement only transfer the
damage to a more expensive part? Also, what keeps the wires from moving around
and chafing inside the main spar?
Bill Sullivan
Windsor Locks, Ct.
FS 447
> [b]
Oh, yeah, crash damage for sure. But the wing tip from the donor wing looked just
like it, and (supposedly) all it was involved in was a ground loop. The wing
tip in the previous tip reinforcement pictures smacked the ground a passing
lick as the airplane was otherwise flailing around destroying itself.
My thinking is (and I reserve the right to be wrong) that the spar can absorb WAY
more abuse than the rest of the wing without damage. The other wing on 2EF
was totaled, (the wing pictured in this post) all the ribs, both the leading
and trailing edges and the aileron, bent the compression strut, sheared the rivets
off that hold the compression strut to the main spar, broke the steel root
rib, bent the steel compression braces from the spar to the compression strut,
snapped the wingtip bow, -but the spar is fine.
Maybe if the tip rib braces had been well tied to the spar, then the spar would
not have survived? Maybe. Don't plan to find out... In this particular case,
it probably wouldn't have mattered.
(Anybody need a FSII spar? As soon as this project is over, we are giving away
a boatload of leftover FSII parts)
The wires - Can't remember if I was the one who put them there like that or ...?
You got me curious, went downstairs and pulled them out. Some very minor chafing,
not bad. But it's a moot point, they will be going somewhere else next time,
and no chafing will be allowed. Thanks!
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292598#292598
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1130315_small_151.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1130638_small_145.jpg
Message 12
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[quote="1planeguy(at)kilocharlie."]Richard is that attached to the aileron? That
sounds like a good way to
get aileron flutter? I remember you have first hand experience with
rudder flutter...so I'm sure you have thought this through already but
thought I'd bring it up...
Jeremy Casey
Kolb "builder" again...finally
Assuredly it would be a dandy way to get aileron flutter, but both the aileron
counterbalances are alive and well, and this puppy will be balanced to whatever
it takes to make the evil flutter go away. Thanks, people bringing things up
is never a bad idea, better to talk about something important three times than
to miss one important thing once.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292599#292599
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic |
NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote:
> Tim/All
>
> A few of us have the older style solid spring steel gear legs. They only
> increase the ride height by maybe 1 inch in my Classic. They give a very
> smooth ride (reportedly much smoother than the new tubular legs) but can
> launch you back in the air if you land hard. I would like the higher stance
> but wouldn't change from what I have now. I purchased them used from another
> Kolb driver that didn't like them because they were too springy.
>
> Does anyone know if my gear legs can be bent down to give a higher stance.
> The wheels tip in at the top now so bending would give a better more
> vertical appearance when the plane is loaded.
>
> Rick Neilsen
> Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
>
> ---
I have a set of those for my MKIII, and the next time I prang the aluminum gear,
I will probably install them. Called Travis earlier this week and asked him
if he knew what the hardness was. He told me that they were built by this company
http://www.langair.com/
and to ask Mr. Lang. I have emailed him and asked, but he has not yet replied.
May have to call him.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292602#292602
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Reinforcing the tip rib |
Yeah, but it saved the spar and or the steel root rib.
You simply trade one weakest link for another. And the plane is still
not designed for cartwheels.
Next time more expensive repairs will be needed.
Gene Z
On Mar 31, 2010, at 9:11 PM, Richard Pike wrote:
>
> I guess it depends on what each persons definition of weakness is.
> IMO, dragging a wingtip and aileron ought to result in damage to the
> aileron and the back corner of the wingtip at the trailing edge, not
> bend the tip rib. (Because if you bend the tip rib, then you also
> bend the trailing edge and aileron tube, and probably the tip
> braces, or at least that's how these were.)
>
> Richard Pike
> MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292590#292590
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Reinforcing the tip rib |
At 06:46 PM 3/31/10 -0700, you wrote:
>
>My thinking is (and I reserve the right to be wrong) that the spar can
absorb WAY more abuse than the rest of the wing without damage. The other
wing on 2EF was totaled, (the wing pictured in this post) all the ribs, both
the leading and trailing edges and the aileron, bent the compression strut,
sheared the rivets off that hold the compression strut to the main spar,
broke the steel root rib, bent the steel compression braces from the spar to
the compression strut, snapped the wingtip bow, -but the spar is fine.
>
Richard,
If you are in a mishap, such as the aircraft you are repairing, it is a good
thing that the extremities crumpled and adsorbed energy. If the structure
had been stronger and more rigid, the pilot may have experienced much higher
G loads. The aircraft may look bad, but it does not feel pain.
My new propeller blades came today, and I remounted a re configured voltage
regulator and magneto kill switch assembly today. Could not finish up as I
ran out of Spider Wire (woven fish line) that I use to access the switch.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
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