---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 04/22/10: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:55 AM - Re: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER? (Rick Lewis) 2. 12:04 PM - Re: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER? (Richard Girard) 3. 03:55 PM - Re: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER? (The Kuffels) 4. 04:09 PM - Re: Need more braking power? (william sullivan) 5. 04:43 PM - Re: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER? (Rick Lewis) 6. 05:46 PM - Re: Re: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER? (Ellery Batchelder Jr) 7. 05:49 PM - Re: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER? (Jack B. Hart) 8. 06:32 PM - Re: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER? (Ellery Batchelder Jr) 9. 07:05 PM - Re: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER? (Richard Girard) 10. 08:25 PM - Re: video of todays flight (cristalclear13) 11. 08:35 PM - New intercom and Waycross Sun N Fun video (cristalclear13) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:55:00 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER? From: "Rick Lewis" This arrangement will give you a 3:1 ratio at the pedal. Look closely at the attach points and you will understand how it works. The lower two bolts are 1" out from the pedals plate, and the top of the pedal is 3" up from this point. This give you the 3:1 ratio. After making the initial prototype you could instantly feel the difference. Try to think of this as a crowbar pulling a nail, only this is pushing a rod. -------- Rick Lewis (VW Watercooled Engine) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295240#295240 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:04:04 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER? From: Richard Girard Depending on the bore of the master cylinders you have (I seem to recall that Matco only makes them in 5/8") you could change to a 3/4" (Grove makes them, I checked) and increase your hydraulic leverage. The other thing to consider is that increasing leverage, whether mechanical or hydraulic, can get you to brake lock and a quick flip over on your back. Just a couple of thoughts. Rick Girard On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 8:17 PM, Ellery Batchelder Jr wrote: > could you press one of the pedals in a pic to show how this system works > from what I see in the pic all it would give you is more dead linkeage but > I could be wrong > > working to much to get any flying in > > *Ellery Batchelder Jr.* > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Lewis > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Sent: Wed, Apr 21, 2010 8:35 pm > Subject: Kolb-List: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER? > > > I finally got back to working on the brakes. The c-90 brake calipers now being > used on the MK-3x and others require a brake pedal ratio of 4:1 to have really > good braking power. The pedals being used on our Kolbs have a ratio of 1:1 or > less, according to Matco. If you don't seem to have good braking power, this is > probably your problem. I have been thinking about this for a while, trying to > find an easy way to modify what we already have. The picture should answer any > questions you may have to modify your existing pedals. This arrangement should > give you a ratio of 3:1. You could improve even more on this by raising the top > of the pedal another inch giving you the full 4:1 ratio called out for the the > instructions. > > Rick Lewis > > -------- > Rick Lewis > > (VW Watercooled Engine) > > > Read this topic online here: > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295180#295180 > > > Attachments: > http://forums.matronics.com//files/pic00026_247.jpg > > > =================================== > rget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > =================================== > tp://forums.matronics.com > =================================== > _blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > =================================== > > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:55:20 PM PST US From: "The Kuffels" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER? Richard, << bore of the master cylinders you have (I seem to recall that Matco only makes them in 5/8") you could change to a 3/4" (Grove makes them, I checked) and increase your hydraulic leverage >> Am I missing something? I thought the hydraulic leverage was the ratio of the area of the two pistons involved. Increasing the size of the master piston reduces this ratio. Tom Kuffel ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:09:40 PM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Need more braking power? - Increasing the cylinder size from 5/8" to 3/4" will give you a quicker responce, because it will move more oil for the same stroke.- It will als o give you less applied force at the brakes for the same pedal pressure.- The pedal will move less, and need to be pressed harder to achieve the sam e braking force.- Changing the pedal geometry allows you to apply more le verage against the master cylinder, and down to the wheel.- It's a balanc ing act. - ------------------------- --------------- Bill Sullivan ------------------------- --------------- Windsor Locks, Ct. ------------------------- --------------- FS 447 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:43:33 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER? From: "Rick Lewis" This drawing, from Matco, is were I got the idea on the configuration I'm presenting to the group. Going to there site will clear up anyone having a hard time understanding how this pedal configuration increases your braking power. What I was trying to do is come up with an easy way that everyone can increase there braking power with a simple modification. It really does make an incredible difference. I did a similar method on my previous home built, a Cozy. Rick Lewis -------- Rick Lewis (VW Watercooled Engine) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295329#295329 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/2_140.bmp ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:46:57 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER? From: Ellery Batchelder Jr I am pretty good at working with mechanical things and I just dont see ho w that setup will do what you say it will you can send a pic of a pedal pu shed and that will tell the story much better than your explanation Ellery Batchelder Jr. -----Original Message----- From: Rick Lewis Sent: Thu, Apr 22, 2010 6:54 am Subject: Kolb-List: Re: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER? This arrangement will give you a 3:1 ratio at the pedal. Look closely at the ttach points and you will understand how it works. The lower two bolts ar e 1" ut from the pedals plate, and the top of the pedal is 3" up from this poin t. his give you the 3:1 ratio. After making the initial prototype you could nstantly feel the difference. Try to think of this as a crowbar pulling a ail, only this is pushing a rod. -------- ick Lewis (VW Watercooled Engine) ead this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295240#295240 ======================== =========== -= - The Kolb-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:49:49 PM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER? From: Richard Girard > Depending on the bore of the master cylinders you have (I seem to recall that Matco only makes them in 5/8") you could change to a 3/4" (Grove makes them, I checked) and increase your hydraulic leverage. > Rick, What is important here is the force that can be applied to the brake. The higher the hydraulic pressure developed the greater the braking force. If one assumes a 100 pound force is applied to the cylinder piston rod, the hydraulic pressure developed will be force/piston area. For the 3/4 inch diameter piston = 100/(3/8x3/8xpi) = 226 psi. For the 5/8 inch diameter piston = 100/(5/16x5/16xpi) = 326 psi. So for the same pedal effort the smaller bore cylinder will give 44% increase in pressure and braking. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:39 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER? From: Ellery Batchelder Jr I agree with Jack's figures "The drawing you submitted to the list" if you have your Points as the dr awings show you will only have changed the length of your pedal and not gained anything by adding the extra linkage because both both setups are doing the same thing with the same arm lengt hs pushing the plunger down to make pressure in the brake system where yo u are Gaining on braking power is having longer brake pedals that is all it boils down to You changed the length of your brake pedals from 1X to 2.5X that is what your drawings show I have heal brakes that worked good with small tires on ,when I went with the 800-6 tires I lengthened my brake pedals 1.5 inches longer to make th em as good as with the smaller tires I didn't change anything else on the pedals other than the length from the pivot point north Ellery Batchelder Jr. -----Original Message----- From: Jack B. Hart Sent: Thu, Apr 22, 2010 9:51 pm Subject: Re: Kolb-List: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER? rom: Richard Girard epending on the bore of the master cylinders you have (I seem to recall hat Matco only makes them in 5/8") you could change to a 3/4" (Grove makes hem, I checked) and increase your hydraulic leverage. Rick, What is important here is the force that can be applied to the brake. The igher the hydraulic pressure developed the greater the braking force. If ne assumes a 100 pound force is applied to the cylinder piston rod, the ydraulic pressure developed will be force/piston area. For the 3/4 inch iameter piston = 100/(3/8x3/8xpi) = 226 psi. For the 5/8 inch diamete r iston = 100/(5/16x5/16xpi) = 326 psi. So for the same pedal effort th e maller bore cylinder will give 44% increase in pressure and braking. Jack B. Hart FF004 inchester, IN ======================== =========== -= - The Kolb-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:37 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER? From: Richard Girard Oops! My only excuse is that I was six hours into watching my 3 year old grandson, blaring Wallace and Gromit video going in the background and trying to think all at the same time. Rick On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Ellery Batchelder Jr wrote: > I agree with Jack's figures > > "The drawing you submitted to the list" if you have your Points as the > drawings show you will only have changed the length of your pedal and not > gained anything by adding the extra linkage > because both both setups are doing the same thing with the same arm > lengths pushing the plunger down to make pressure in the brake system where > you are Gaining on braking power is having longer brake pedals that is all > it boils down to You changed the length of your brake pedals from 1X to 2.5X > that is what your drawings show > I have heal brakes that worked good with small tires on ,when I went with > the 800-6 tires I lengthened my brake pedals 1.5 inches longer to make them > as good as with the smaller tires I didn't change anything else on the > pedals other than the length from the pivot point north > *Ellery Batchelder Jr.* > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jack B. Hart > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Sent: Thu, Apr 22, 2010 9:51 pm > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: NEED MORE BRAKING POWER? > > > Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 14:01:19 -0500 > From: Richard Girard > > > Depending on the bore of the master cylinders you have (I seem to recall > that Matco only makes them in 5/8") you could change to a 3/4" (Grove makes > them, I checked) and increase your hydraulic leverage. > > > > Rick, > > What is important here is the force that can be applied to the brake. The > higher the hydraulic pressure developed the greater the braking force. If > one assumes a 100 pound force is applied to the cylinder piston rod, the > hydraulic pressure developed will be force/piston area. For the 3/4 inch > diameter piston = 100/(3/8x3/8xpi) = 226 psi. For the 5/8 inch diameter > piston = 100/(5/16x5/16xpi) = 326 psi. So for the same pedal effort the > smaller bore cylinder will give 44% increase in pressure and braking. > > Jack B. Hart FF004 > Winchester, IN > > > =================================== > rget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > =================================== > tp://forums.matronics.com > =================================== > _blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > =================================== > > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:23 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: video of todays flight From: "cristalclear13" Thom Riddle wrote: > Larry, > > That is your best video yet I agree! That was great! -------- Cristal Waters Kolb Mark II Twinstar Rotax 503 DCSI Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295359#295359 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:35:47 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: New intercom and Waycross Sun N Fun video From: "cristalclear13" I broke down and bought the intercom that Jim Kmet said worked well in his Mark III, the Sigtronics SPO-22N. It worked really well with just me and my radio this evening. Now I have to find a guinea pig for a passenger to test out communication in the cockpit. :D I did not get to go to Sun N Fun but our airport did serve BBQ, hot dogs, chips and sweet tea to those who stopped by to fuel up, so we got to see a lot of different planes. I was able to go out to the airport a couple of those days and took some pictures and video. I also got some pictures from a friend who served up BBQ everyday, and so I combined them and made this video. The first minute or so is a slideshow of just pictures and is silent. Then you will see and hear some takeoffs and some T-34s doing some formation flying over our airport. It was fun! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLOC-dadR34 -------- Cristal Waters Kolb Mark II Twinstar Rotax 503 DCSI Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295360#295360 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.