Kolb-List Digest Archive

Wed 04/28/10


Total Messages Posted: 12



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 03:04 AM - Re: Re: 180 turn back to the runway video (pj.ladd)
     2. 03:40 AM - Re: Re: 180 turn back to the runway video (pj.ladd)
     3. 03:51 AM - Re: Re: 180 turn back to the runway video (pj.ladd)
     4. 04:48 AM - Re: Re: 180 turn back to the runway video (Eugene Zimmerman)
     5. 04:51 AM - Re: Re: BNC bulkhead connector (russ kinne)
     6. 05:22 AM - Re: BNC bulkhead connector (Mike Welch)
     7. 05:38 AM - Re: BNC bulkhead connector (R. Hankins)
     8. 05:40 AM - Re: 180 turn back to the runway video (Watkinsdw)
     9. 07:54 AM - Re: 180 turn back to the runway video (Richard Pike)
    10. 08:08 AM - Re: Re: 180 turn back to the runway video (b young)
    11. 12:13 PM - Re: 180 turn back to the runway video (JetPilot)
    12. 01:55 PM - Angle of Bank vs Stall Speed (The Kuffels)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 03:04:16 AM PST US
    From: "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: 180 turn back to the runway video
    a flat skidding turn leading to the inside wing stalling,>> Hi Dana, reminds me of an incident I saw just around the end of the war. An Albemarle, which was a twin engined light/medium bomber reduced to glider tugging was struggling into the sky from my local field pulling a Waco glider. The glider got out of position and pulled the tail of the Albemarle to starboard. The Albemarles port wing stalled and she dropped into a straight down nosedive with both engines flat out. Unfortunately there was not enough height and she hit the ground about 10 degrees from vertical. The pilot had obviously realised what was happening and dumped the tow line as his plane dropped out of control thus certainly saving the glider pilot from filling his pants or as a worst case causing the glider to crash with its full complement of squaddies aboard. Sports gliders with their long wing span are prone to this on final turn when they are close to the ground and skid into a flat turn instead of banking properly. Cheers Pat


    Message 2


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    Time: 03:40:40 AM PST US
    From: "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: 180 turn back to the runway video
    The wind would have to be blowing on the order of 10 to 15 knots (an estimate) down the runway to be in danger of running out of runway on the landing roll.>> Hi Jason, working the accurate math for that is beyond me but a 10knot windspeed and say 35knot airspeed at take off is going to produce a ground speed on takeoff of 25knots. Landing downwind is going to require at least 45 knots ground speed and to keep proper control, a bit more. That will certainly take a lot more runway than you expect. I will tell you how I know. I flew to a fly in last weekend. Viz was not great and I was non radio. The wind was light and I couldn`t see the windsock. I saw another a/c in the circuit and decided to follow him around the circuit. As I turned I lost him in the haze and the next time I saw him he was on the ground having (I assumed), just landed. I tracked round to follow and landed in the same direction. I realised that something was not quite right when the hedge wizzed under me a bit faster than I expected. Then the plane plonked herself down a bit more solidly than usual and I found myself charging down the grass and applying brakes hard. I taxied to the clubhouse where I was given a (richly deserved) b*******ing from the CFI. What I had seen was not the other plane landing, but BACKTRACKING after he had landed. A stupid error whch to salve my pride I shall put down as being due to the first away flight of the season and not being really switched on yet. Take it from me. Down wind landings take MUCH more runway than you expect. Cheers Pat


    Message 3


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    Time: 03:51:47 AM PST US
    From: "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: 180 turn back to the runway video
    If you bank steeper you descend faster and you are still at 1G.>> Hi Jason, If that were the case then any bank angle would not increase the `G`. Ascending, descending, power on or off. None of these is germane to the case. Cheers Pat


    Message 4


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    Time: 04:48:50 AM PST US
    From: Eugene Zimmerman <etzimm@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: 180 turn back to the runway video
    On Apr 28, 2010, at 6:40 AM, pj.ladd wrote: > Take it from me. Down wind landings take MUCH more runway than you > expect. Ok, You perhaps. What do you expect? Unrealistic expectations inevitably make pilots unsafe. Gene,


    Message 5


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    Time: 04:51:05 AM PST US
    From: russ kinne <russkinne@mac.com>
    Subject: Re: BNC bulkhead connector
    Roger Just a thought -- but ik you have a good electronics shop nearby -- air, ground or marine; -- they may well have a junk drawer with a chassis that has a bulkhead BNC fitting on it Worth a try. Good luck, Russ K do not archive On Apr 28, 2010, at 2:04 AM, R. Hankins wrote: > > "Show this to your local Radio Shack sales clerk. " > > Your link is pretty much what the local Shack clerk showed me... > Lots of BNC stuff, but no bulkhead fitting like Jimmy is looking > for. It's not in their system at all. The Shack ain't what it > used to be. > > -------- > Roger in Oregon > 1992 KXP 503 - N1782C > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295978#295978 > >


    Message 6


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    Time: 05:22:52 AM PST US
    From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Re: BNC bulkhead connector
    Roger=2C Russ=2C Jimmy=2C anyone else=2C When Jimmy asked about a BNC bulkhead connector=2C I posted an immediate response showing what I think is what he was after. I did not get a reply =2C so I don't know whether it was or not. I'll post it again. It might be nice to know if this is what he was after. : ) http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=112575virtualkey523300 00virtualkey523-112575 Regarding Radio Shack=2C you're right=2C they aren't what they used to be !! My local Radio Shack is a subsection in some other store (kind of like a bank in a grocery store). They don't have much!!! But=2C they are bett er than nothing for the basics. Mike Welch MkIII > From: russkinne@mac.com > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: BNC bulkhead connector > Date: Wed=2C 28 Apr 2010 07:50:52 -0400 > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > > > Roger > Just a thought -- but ik you have a good electronics shop nearby -- > air=2C ground or marine=3B -- they may well have a junk drawer with a > chassis that has a bulkhead BNC fitting on it Worth a try. > Good luck=2C > Russ K > do not archive > > On Apr 28=2C 2010=2C at 2:04 AM=2C R. Hankins wrote: > > > > > "Show this to your local Radio Shack sales clerk. " > > > > Your link is pretty much what the local Shack clerk showed me... > > Lots of BNC stuff=2C but no bulkhead fitting like Jimmy is looking > > for. It's not in their system at all. The Shack ain't what it > > used to be. > > > > -------- > > Roger in Oregon > > 1992 KXP 503 - N1782C > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295978#295978 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hot mail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=P ID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4


    Message 7


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    Time: 05:38:19 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: BNC bulkhead connector
    From: "R. Hankins" <rphanks@grantspass.com>
    Mike, I posted before checking your second link. Mouser has many options for BNC bulkhead fittings. I can't speak for Jimmy, but they have what I have been looking for. Thanks for the tip, -------- Roger in Oregon 1992 KXP 503 - N1782C Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296001#296001


    Message 8


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    Time: 05:40:15 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: 180 turn back to the runway video
    From: "Watkinsdw" <david.watkins0@gmail.com>
    Hi, Gang, Just for fun, and since it doesn't seem to have been mentioned, when safely practicing at altitude, perform a 270 degree turn to establish your altitude loss. Unless we take off sideways across a football field, it takes a 45 to return to the runway, and another 45 to line up for landing. All that is after the initial 180. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296002#296002


    Message 9


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    Time: 07:54:45 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: 180 turn back to the runway video
    From: "Richard Pike" <richard@bcchapel.org>
    Here is a very good video about the "Impossible Turn" as performed by two guys in a C172. http://www.aerobats.com/seminar_02-07.html Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296028#296028


    Message 10


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    Time: 08:08:11 AM PST US
    From: "b young" <by0ung@brigham.net>
    Subject: Re: 180 turn back to the runway video
    Hello Boyd, Again, a descending (power off) turn at constant air speed is a 1G maneuver. Jason >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jason Just visited a cfi, and I asked the question "could you remain in 1 g during a descending turn at a constant air speed" his reply was "you could for a short while, but it would be the start of a death spiral." Straight flight at a constant speed and power setting, is considered 1g. If 1 g is lifting the aircraft and you put it into a turn, You will require additional energy to cause the plane to change direction, I.e. TURN 180 Energy is needed to stop the plane from traveling in one direction, and accelerate it into another direction. Thus more energy/lift is required from the wings, to make the direction change and also lift the aircraft. I guess it could be argued that there is still only 1g apposing gravity, but additional lift is required to cause the change of direction. Thus 1 PLUS g maneuver, the greater the bank angle the greater the PLUS. Boyd


    Message 11


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    Time: 12:13:56 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: 180 turn back to the runway video
    From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
    Any turn of an airplane will require acceleration to change its direction, you can not turn the direction of any moving object without putting force on it, its a law of physics that can not be broken. What can be done is that the turning forces can be temporarily kept near one G by initiating a descent, and using more of the lift component for the turn, and less for lifting against gravity, TEMPORARILY. But any descent incurred by this will have to be arrested sooner or later by additional lift from the wings, additional G loading somewhere before hitting the ground. You can not change the laws of physics by being a good pilot. What a good pilot can do is manage these forces so gradually, and smoothly that any increase in G loading is minimal and not noticed by the humans inside the plane. This is very good and important technique, as the return to airport would be done at minimal airspeed with no power... Horsing the plane around and being abrupt with the controls and the resulting G forces could cause an accelerated stall and be disastrous in this situation. So while you can not change the laws of physics, you can manage them so smoothly as to give yourself every chance of completing this maneuver without stalling. Mike -------- &quot;NO FEAR&quot; - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296079#296079


    Message 12


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    Time: 01:55:43 PM PST US
    From: "The Kuffels" <kuffel@cyberport.net>
    Subject: Angle of Bank vs Stall Speed
    Sent this two hours ago. So far it hasn't appeared on the list. My paranoid side says there must be censorship of my ideas somewhere. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Sigh. My conscience won't let me ignore this. pj, boyd, Dana: Dang it, ignore what I say, fly the maneuver and see for yourself. Go to altitude, reduce power if you wish, enter a 30 degree bank and hold absolutely constant airspeed for 180 degrees and then roll level. Repeat at 5 miles/knots slower. Repeat again until you are as close to Vso as your ability to hold a constant airspeed allows. You will not stall. For more details as to why this is true review my messages in the thread linked by Jason: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=38477&highlight=descendin g+turn+stall Now: << If the turns are less than 30 deg and the g load less than 1.5,, you may be ok. if the turn is 60 or more deg bank and g load 2 or above >> << In a coordinated turn, the stall speed increases as a function of the bank angle >> These out of context statements are exactly the misconception which kills pilots every year. I know, it almost killed me during my primary training. I know, base to final turn accidents are a major source of aircraft fatalities every year. They are true *if you maintain (approximately) a constant vertical component for your lift vector.* The only way to do this is to increase your total lift, in other words maintain constant altitude, in other words increase your load factor. But don't believe me, go out and fly the maneuver yourself at altitude. Look at the AIM diagram we have all had drummed into our subconscious. As the angle of bank increases, the total lift increases to keep the vertical component the same. Now with your hands block out all but the first airplane. Rotate the entire manual. This is the case of a constant airspeed in a turn. Some of the lift is now used to make the turn and less lift is available to oppose gravity and you will *start* to descend faster. But since the total lift is unchanged so is the stall speed. In other words, stall speed increases with load factor, not angle of bank. But don't believe me, go out and fly the maneuver yourself at altitude. << Take a 45 degree bank, for example. In a normal, coordinated, level turn, you pull 1.41G. If you put your aircraft into a 45 degree bank and hold 1G, the vertical component of lift will be only 0.707g; thus you'll have a downward acceleration of 0.3g, or 9.4 ft/s/s, or 566 fpm/s. This means that after one second, your rate of descent will have increased by 566 fpm. After four seconds, you're descending at 2264 fpm, which is a pretty steep dive, and you WILL pull more than one g pulling out of it. >> The math here is wrong. After one second you are descending at 9 feet/sec, 2 seconds you are now at 19 ft/sec, 3 seconds = 28 ft/sec, 4 sec = 38 ft/sec or so. In addition it ignores the vertical component of drag which is significant. But don't believe me, go out and fly the maneuver yourself at altitude. The above statements as well as the "death spiral" of Boyd's CFI are the result of misunderstanding the context of what I and others are trying to fix. The problem is the turn from base to final. Most pilots initiate a bank of about 30 degrees. Half way through the turn they see they are overshooting the runway. What they should do is increase their angle of bank to 45 degrees or even briefly 60 degrees at constant airspeed to finish the turn. Instead, because "increased angle of bank means increased stall speed" (in a different context) has been fixated in their minds they try to fudge the situation with rudder and/or tightening up (pulling on the stick) instead. This brings them to experience the other four fundamentals of flight: stall, spin, crash and burn. What we must fixate instead is "constant airspeed = constant load factor = constant stall speed". But don't believe me, go out and fly the maneuver yourself at altitude. Now just because I have an evil nature let me mention one more context besides turns at low altitude for landing. This should start another thread in the Seafoam mode. The concept of constant airspeed control is also paramount in mountain search and rescue reversing turns and box canyon escapes. What I teach is no change in power, smoothly increase your climb rate and bank until you reach your desired bank and airspeed, say Vs1 + 10. Maintain this bank and airspeed until you have reversed direction. You will now be in a decent but at a higher altitude, smoothly pullout and you are now going in the opposite direction at roughly your starting altitude and airspeed. This method allows the pilot to concentrate on airspeed control and situational awareness without the distraction of power control. The reduced airspeed during the turn also creates a very small radius of turn. But don't believe me, go out and fly the maneuver yourself at altitude. Let me finish with an irrelevant appeal to authority. Every, and I mean every, CFI with whom I've had the above discussion and then taken flying has adopted my emphasis on constant airspeed control for maneuvering close to the ground. But don't believe me, go out and fly the maneuver yourself at altitude. Good luck and have fun, Tom Kuffel, CFI EAA Flight Advisor




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