---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 05/30/10: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:09 AM - Seat cushions (Watkinsdw) 2. 06:35 AM - Re: Seat cushions (John Hauck) 3. 07:42 AM - Re: Re: drag conundrum (Jack B. Hart) 4. 08:09 AM - Re: Re: drag conundrum (John Hauck) 5. 09:07 AM - Re: Re: drag conundrum (Jack B. Hart) 6. 09:23 AM - Re: Seat cushions (Richard Pike) 7. 10:07 AM - Re: Re: Seat cushions (John Hauck) 8. 10:26 AM - Re: Dihedral (rayw) 9. 10:40 AM - Re: Re: Dihedral (John Hauck) 10. 11:41 AM - Re: Re: drag conundrum (John Hauck) 11. 02:09 PM - Re: Re: drag conundrum (Jack B. Hart) 12. 03:20 PM - Re: Seat cushions (Watkinsdw) 13. 07:30 PM - Re: Seat cushions (jerb) 14. 08:42 PM - Re: Hauck Ramblings On Kolb aircraft. (Ralph B) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:09:47 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Seat cushions From: "Watkinsdw" Hi, John, Glad to hear you're on the mend. At S&F, you recommended tempur foam for seat cushions. I recall you said you chose "firm," for your airplane. How thick is the foam you used? I'm getting tired of a sore arse... Thanks in advance, Dave Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=299342#299342 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:35:03 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Seat cushions dave, not exactly sure what i have. probably 2". i wouldn't go with less than that, and firm. will make all the difference in the world. john ----- Original Message ----- From: "Watkinsdw" Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2010 7:09 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Seat cushions > > Hi, John, > Glad to hear you're on the mend. > At S&F, you recommended tempur foam > for seat cushions. I recall you said you chose "firm," > for your airplane. > How thick is the foam you used? > I'm getting tired of a sore arse... > Thanks in advance, > Dave > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=299342#299342 > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:42:29 AM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: drag conundrum At 09:06 PM 5/29/10 -0500, you wrote: > > >p factor at cruise is probably not measureable. > Take the trim tab off the rudder and start adding and subtracting washers to change the engine angle and see what happens. > >how do you calibrate your slip/skid indicator? > To mount it I hung a plumb bob from the root tube with the bob directly over the tail tube. Then I shimmed under a wheel until the bob point was over the middle of the tail tube. I picked this as wings level. Then I glued and taped the indicator to the panel with the ball centered. After the glue had set up, I drilled and bolted the indicator to the panel. > >what kind of slip/skid indicator do you have? > Don't know of the brand, it is just a ball and curved tube type that I purchased out of the experimental aircraft supply catalogs. >we have adverse yaw as the result of the way the prop wash hits the tail >section, especially high horse power and large prop combos. this is quite >evident on my mkiii. only the left side of the upper and lower vertical >stabilizers are hit. right sides stay clean. > >top of left horizontal stab and elevator are also hit by prop wash. there >is a lot going on back there. > Yes there is, but I believe it is minor compared to the offsetting roll induced from the propeller torque reaction. > >remember when you were going to tuft the tail section to see if prop wash >was hitting elevators? i knew it was and i recommended standing behind the >airplane with the engine running, stick your hand down there and feel the >air? lot quicker than tufting. > Due to the low position of the horizontal tail surfaces they do not receive much propeller air flow. That is why it is so important to keep the thrust line as slow as possible. On the FireFly with the 447 mounted only 23% of the horizontal stabilizer area was swept by propeller wash. With the elevator full up, received 11% and in the neutral position 1%. By dropping the thrust line with the Victor 1+ those numbers were 29%, 14%, and 2%, respectively. Not a huge improvement, but it was worth doing and lead to the addition of VG's on the bottom of the horizontal stabilizer. This study can be seen at: http://jackbhart.com/firefly/firefly129.html > >23 years ago i experimented with thrust line of my firestar. up, down, >left, and right. no change in performance, yaw, or pitch. > I suspect your ability to measure the resulting performance changes was not up to the task. If I hold my hand out in the FireFly slip stream it will turn in that direction and I do not see a change on any of the flight instruments. If you are interested, that is why it is so important to make changes that should improve the flight performance. If you make enough of them, the accumulative effects will show in increased performance. The end result is an aircraft that can be safer and more fun to fly, and easier on your wallet. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:09:43 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: drag conundrum > I suspect your ability to measure the resulting performance changes was not > up to the task. > > Jack B. Hart FF004 > Winchester, IN jack, i am going to elect not to comment on the above statement. however, i am interested in your ability to measure performance changes and the precision instrumentation you utilize to come to your conclusions. john h ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:07:52 AM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: drag conundrum At 10:09 AM 5/30/10 -0500, you wrote: > > >however, i am interested in your ability to measure performance changes and >the precision instrumentation you utilize to come to your conclusions. > John, Most of my ability to detect performance changes comes from record keeping. I log and record the infight time, the fuel burned, engine rpm and egt. I am fortune in that I can fly to my local EAA Chapter meetings so that I am flying the same path fairly often. From these data one can determine trends that indicate performance changes. It wasn't until I was able to control in flight EGT, that really good things began to happen. This allowed me to fly with predictable/repeatable fuel rate burns even though metrological conditions changed over the period of the flight/trip. This ability insures than one is flying at constant and repeatable power settings. This is how I was able to compare the performance of the 447 and the Victor 1+. Also with EGT control, I could investigate the fuel burn rates for different throttle settings with out the results being masked by changing atmospheric conditions. These comparison studies where documented in: http://jackbhart.com/firefly/firefly146.html As far as changes in stall speed, one can do fairly well with the ASI and back it up with a GPS. The lift increase brought about by VG's is easily done by determining the lowest flight speed at which one can maintain altitude before and after the addition of VG's. Also, one can document the ability to fly slower in ground effect, and shortened distance for lift off. See: http://jackbhart.com/firefly/firefly18.html Some things I have tried, I could not see any change or improvement and so I have removed them. Others in the same category, I have retained as in that past studies by NACA and NASA indicate they will be helpful. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:23:34 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Seat cushions From: "Richard Pike" No experience doing seat cushions on Kolbs, I am still happy with the stock mesh sling seat, but I have done mod jobs on three different motorcycle seats. Since I had no experience, I started out using firm Temperfoam like John prefers, ended up replacing it with medium, liked it a lot better. 2" thick works good. If you have to buy it in 1" thicknesses, just double it up. Easy to cut with an electric carving knife. Since everbody's tush is different, assume that you'll redo it at least twice with different firmnesses of foam, and you'll not be disappointed. Worth what ya paid for it - Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=299366#299366 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:07:08 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Seat cushions > No experience doing seat cushions on Kolbs, I am still happy with the stock mesh sling seat, but I have done mod jobs on three different motorcycle seats. Since I had no experience, I started out using firm Temperfoam like John prefers, ended up replacing it with medium, liked it a lot better. 2" thick works good. If you have to buy it in 1" thicknesses, just double it up. Easy to cut with an electric carving knife. Since everbody's tush is different, assume that you'll redo it at least twice with different firmnesses of foam, and you'll not be disappointed. > > Worth what ya paid for it - > > Richard Pike gang, i was worth 30 mins max before butt cramps, before firm temper foam on seat bottom. now, no more cramps in 3,000+ hours. memory and pain killers aren't helping remember, but here is what i do use in the bottom of my mkiii seat: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/conForFoan.php 1"X16"X18" trim to fit. earlier i stated i thought it was 2". i was wrong. this says it all: Adapts to you for pressure point-free comfort that is really incredible. john h ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:26:18 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Dihedral From: "rayw" Thanks to all for the come back on the Dihedral question. FYI: I went to the new Kolb web-site and found that they list the Dihedral at 0.9 degree's for all the current models. Those folks that wished they had increased dihedral during construction really got my attention. That may very well be a next winter project. I like the idea of letting go of the stick and having the plane come back to neutral. At least for now I know the dihedral angle is acceptable where it is. Best regards, Ray W. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=299379#299379 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:40:09 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Dihedral God made knees to hold the stick. ;-) john h ----- Original Message ----- From: "rayw" Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2010 12:26 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Dihedral > > Thanks to all for the come back on the Dihedral question. > > FYI: I went to the new Kolb web-site and found that they list the Dihedral > at 0.9 degree's for all the current models. Those folks that wished they > had increased dihedral during construction really got my attention. That > may very well be a next winter project. I like the idea of letting go of > the stick and having the plane come back to neutral. > > At least for now I know the dihedral angle is acceptable where it is. > > Best regards, > > Ray W. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=299379#299379 > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:41:25 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: drag conundrum jack, > As far as changes in stall speed, one can do fairly well with the ASI and > back it up with a GPS. how do you back up the asi with the gps? The lift increase brought about by VG's is easily > done by determining the lowest flight speed at which one can maintain > altitude before and after the addition of VG's. Also, one can document > the > ability to fly slower in ground effect, and shortened distance for lift > off. how precise is the above? > See: http://jackbhart.com/firefly/firefly18.html > Jack B. Hart FF004 i took a look at your web site. "It wasn't until I was able to control in flight EGT, that really good things began to happen." how many engines have you seized because of over leaning mixture and tinkering with good carbs and engines to save a tea spoon of fuel and lower cruise rpm, performance, and reliability? I experimented with a CPS inflight adjustable main jet on my cuyuna ULII02 powered Ultrastar in 1984. Soon discovered that was a bad idea and promptly removed it. too easy to overlean, too easy to forget to reset to landing and takeoff settings. Many of these caused an immediate engine shut down with the mikuni carb. how many fun, reliable flight hours have you amassed in the life of your fire fly? how many years since your first flight in your fire fly? how did you determine i was not capable to test my three kolb aircraft over the past 26 years and 5,000+ kolb flight hours? Actually, the last aircraft i tested was the latest model kolb mkiii extra at the kolb factory a couple years ago. next time they need a test pilot i'll recommend they give you a call. ;-) take care, john h ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:09:56 PM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: drag conundrum At 01:41 PM 5/30/10 -0500, you wrote: > >how do you back up the asi with the gps? > In level flight and with out changing the throttle fly different directions and record the gps ground speeds. The average of these speeds should approximate your ASI. > >The lift increase brought about by VG's is easily >> done by determining the lowest flight speed at which one can maintain >> altitude before and after the addition of VG's. Also, one can document >> the >> ability to fly slower in ground effect, and shortened distance for lift >> off. > > >how precise is the above? > You have to guessimate the one mile point on the ASI, for slow flight, the gps does better but again one must fly in several directions and take and average. Ground effect flying is easier in that you can fly both direction of the runway and take the average. > >how many engines have you seized because of over leaning mixture and >tinkering with good carbs and engines to save a tea spoon of fuel and lower >cruise rpm, performance, and reliability? > None so far. > >I experimented with a CPS inflight adjustable main jet on my cuyuna ULII02 >powered Ultrastar in 1984. Soon discovered that was a bad idea and promptly >removed it. too easy to overlean, too easy to forget to reset to landing >and takeoff settings. Many of these caused an immediate engine shut down >with the mikuni carb. > I have no experience with this system. > >how many fun, reliable flight hours have you amassed in the life of your >fire fly? > Not as many as I would like. > >how many years since your first flight in your fire fly? > eleven > >how did you determine i was not capable to test my three kolb aircraft over >the past 26 years and 5,000+ kolb flight hours? > In a previous email, you made the following statement, "23 years ago i experimented with thrust line of my firestar. up, down, left, and right. no change in performance, yaw, or pitch." I assumed you were jesting when you made this statement in that the only way it can possibly be true is if the firestar is sitting still on the ground. Newtonian physics will not be denied. This List has had it's share of those who thought they could defy Newton's Laws. Some have died, others banged up, and others have been lucky to escape with just a warning. You, John have been very lucky. > >Actually, the last aircraft >i tested was the latest model kolb mkiii extra at the kolb factory a couple >years ago. next time they need a test pilot i'll recommend they give you a >call. ;-) I appreciate the offer, but I have enough fun with my own FireFly. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:20:10 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Seat cushions From: "Watkinsdw" Thanks very much, Guys. This should help my "seat of my pants" flying. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=299391#299391 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:30:44 PM PST US From: jerb Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Seat cushions Are you making your own seat cushion or do you want a prefabbed one. We got one for Oregon Aero we used in our FireFly. It worked out real nice. jerb At 05:09 AM 5/30/2010, you wrote: > >Hi, John, >Glad to hear you're on the mend. >At S&F, you recommended tempur foam >for seat cushions. I recall you said you chose "firm," >for your airplane. >How thick is the foam you used? >I'm getting tired of a sore arse... >Thanks in advance, >Dave > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=299342#299342 > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:42:57 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Hauck Ramblings On Kolb aircraft. From: "Ralph B" Good post John. I enjoy both my Kolbs. Ralph B -------- Ralph B Original Firestar 447 N91493 E-AB 1000 hours 23 years flying it Kolbra 912UL N20386 2 years flying it 120 hrs Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=299420#299420 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.