Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:59 AM - Re: slow flying MkIII's (Thom Riddle)
2. 07:04 AM - Re: Re: slow flying MkIII's (John Hauck)
3. 09:02 AM - Re: Nauga "Get Well" Video (cristalclear13)
4. 09:02 AM - Re: drag conundrum (Kirby, Dennis Civ USAF AFMC AFNWC/EN)
5. 10:49 AM - Re: Nauga "Get Well" Video (Jason Omelchuck)
6. 11:17 AM - Re: slow flying MkIII's (Thom Riddle)
7. 11:33 AM - Re: drag conundrum (Thom Riddle)
8. 11:34 AM - Re: Re: slow flying MkIII's (John Hauck)
9. 11:59 AM - Re: Anyone going to Oshkosh? (Duane Ransdell)
10. 01:40 PM - J-3 Kitten trade for Kolb (gliderx5@comcast.net)
11. 04:10 PM - Re: Re: drag conundrum (John Hauck)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: slow flying MkIII's |
Speaking high thrust lines, wing incidence and HS incidence, I am wondering if
the numbers on my SS are "correct". I will call Kolb and ask but thought maybe
someone on the list might know what the design calls for on the SS. Attached
is a drawing I borrowed from Jack Hart and edited the numbers to match my SS.
It seems to me that the difference between my wing incidence and HS incidence (7
degrees) is greater than it should be, but this is just a guess. It also seems
to me that my thrust line angle is way too high (3.5 degrees pointed up relative
to wing bottom, and 10.5 degrees above HS incidence).
Any thoughts from those who know would be appreciated.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do
it.
- Pablo Picasso
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=299989#299989
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/thomssangles_153.jpg
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: slow flying MkIII's |
Thom:
Lot of variables in thrust line because of the design of the engine mount.
I insure I have the hardest Lord Mount to help reduce movement on the
mkIII.
I learned about engine excursion with my FS/447 that was equipped with
softer Lord Mounts during engine run up while tied down. The engine rolled
right and forward, loading up the right front Lord Mount.
By chance I discovered how much a problem this was at WOT in the FS. During
a test, at WOT, the FS would not exceed 75 MPH. I rolled off throttle until
I unloaded the engine, then very slowly came back in with power, very
slowly, The FS increased speed to 85 mph. I'm sure it was caused by
misalignment of thrust line. Nursing power back in kept the thrust line
more in line as power and speed increased.
My theory on mkIII thrust line is:
912 rotates opposite two strokes, loading left front mount.
At rest, 5/8" spacers raised the front of the engine bringing thrust line
parallel with the bottom of the wing. In flight, thrust brings the thrust
line back to where it was at rest. I tested this with a flight to Point
Barrow, Alaska, and back. Performance figures were the same as enginge
mounted in stock configuration on another flight to Point Barrow, Alaska,
and back.
Travis Brown, Kolb Aircraft, provides me with the hardest Lord Mount
available. In addition, I insert a 2" fender washer on top the two front
mounts. This prevents the thrust from depressing the front mounts more than
about 1/8" to 1/4".
Two major factors working against our mkIII's is high thrust line and the
way the prop wash hits the tail section.
The lower the engine is mounted on the airframe the faster the mkIII will
fly. My engine is absolutely as low as it can be without hitting the root
tube.
My mkIII and the other faster mkIII's have fully enclosed fuselages with the
rear of the fuselage faired and not cut off square or not covered at all.
So, remember when you are standing there looking at your engine sitting on
top of your Kolb at rest, it will not be in the same position when you are
flying.
john h
mkIII
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 5:59 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: slow flying MkIII's
>
> Speaking high thrust lines, wing incidence and HS incidence, I am
> wondering if the numbers on my SS are "correct". I will call Kolb and ask
> but thought maybe someone on the list might know what the design calls for
> on the SS. Attached is a drawing I borrowed from Jack Hart and edited the
> numbers to match my SS.
> It seems to me that the difference between my wing incidence and HS
> incidence (7 degrees) is greater than it should be, but this is just a
> guess. It also seems to me that my thrust line angle is way too high (3.5
> degrees pointed up relative to wing bottom, and 10.5 degrees above HS
> incidence).
>
> Any thoughts from those who know would be appreciated.
>
> --------
> Thom Riddle
> Buffalo, NY (9G0)
> Kolb Slingshot SS-021
> Jabiru 2200A #1574
> Tennessee Prop 64x32
>
>
> I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how
> to do it.
> - Pablo Picasso
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=299989#299989
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/thomssangles_153.jpg
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Nauga "Get Well" Video |
John Bickham wrote:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Szp1waiP4a0
>
I don't know about John, but that video made me feel good. Thanks for sharing.
do not archive
--------
Cristal Waters
Kolb Mark II Twinstar
Rotax 503 DCSI
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=300028#300028
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: drag conundrum |
"Thom Riddle" wrote:
<< I recently downsized my Slingshot tires from 800x6 to 600-6 ...
I'm looking for feed back ... Results: Zero change in IAS or TAS at same
rpm setting. !@#$% >>
Thom, Kolb Friends -
Your findings mirror my own observations for the same modification on my
Mark-3.
Namely, that switching tire size from big to smaller resulted in zero
difference in IAS.
To make the drag conundrum even more frustrating for me, I also
installed two other drag-reducing modifications to my Kolb at the same
time, thinking that the combination would surely yield an extra mile per
hour or two of increased air speed. But not the case.
In addition to switching from 800x6 to smaller 600x6 tires, I also
installed aerodynamic fairings around the landing gear legs - the same
plastic fairings that TNK provides to cover the wing struts. To smooth
the air flow around the upper-aft area of the pod, I installed Lexan
panels on the sides of the cage (one on each side) to cover the open
areas behind the pilots (below the wing, above the gas tanks). I
thought that cleaning up the air flow before it goes into the prop would
help.
I've flown two flights since these mods and have collected detailed
airspeed data. So far, I'm seeing zero change in indicated air speeds
for the same power settings. The only benefit I'm seeing is that it's
less windy in the cockpit, so I guess I'll leave the Lexan panels in
place.
What this experiment reveals to me is, the Mark-3 is a very draggy
airframe, and I'm not gonna squeeze any more blood (airspeed) from this
turnip. But what a wonderful turnip it is!
Dennis Kirby
Mark-III, 912ul
Sandia Park, NM
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Nauga "Get Well" Video |
Hello John,
That is some dedication to being able to video. It would freak me out to have
to drill holes in my windshield like that.
Regards
Jason
MKIII Portland OR
John Bickham wrote:
> Well,
>
> I thought John H would prefer a Kolb flying video to some sappy get well card.
This is my first flight in close to five months. I can give you my list of
excuses, but won't. Finally boils down to priorities not right.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Szp1waiP4a0
>
>
> Some of you that have visited me at Nauga will notice a few changes. The trees
have been removed on the SW end. Still got the power line though! Due to
the record rainfall that started last September, I've been working on the drainage.
I took out some of the motocross whoopties (low spots). Since some folks
have issues with that. [Twisted Evil] Crested the center a bit more. Hopefully,
the grass and John H's leg will be grow'd back about the same time.
>
> The humidity and mist was it's normal super high. This was my first try with
a new camera. Got a lot of shake. I think I need to sandwich the mount in some
foam. If any of you semi-pro Kolb vidoegraphers (Larry) got a suggestion,
I'm a listening.
>
> Sorry about the shake but hope you enjoy. Not as much scenic beauty as Larry's
stuff but a lot more trees!
>
> Respectfully offer my appreciation to those that have served and sacrificed and
to those no longer with us on this Memorial Day.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=300046#300046
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: slow flying MkIII's |
Thanks for your thoughts on Lord Mounts, John.
My mounts are very hard rubber and the engine does not appear to move much at all
when tied down and run up. Unfortunately, the wet sump on the Jabiru is pretty
deep which requires a fairly high mounting. My prop (only 64" diameter) clears
the boom tube by at least 5-6" at rest.
My question for you (and/or others) is this. The static (at rest) thrust line of
the my engine is pointing upwards 3.5 degrees relative to the bottom of the
wing. Is this about right, assuming my mounts are plenty hard? Note that the axis
of the motor mount bolts is not vertical like on the Rotax but parallel to
the longitudinal axis of the airplane. However I can still raise one side/end
vs the other because this mount bolts to the Kolb engine tube. Not sure this
shows in the attached photo, but that is all I have right now and my camera keeps
quitting on me. Guess it is time for a new one.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do
it.
- Pablo Picasso
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=300051#300051
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/jabiru_engine_rt_rear_cropped_120.jpg
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: drag conundrum |
Dennis,
Thanks much for your feedback. The SS is not quite as draggy as a MKIII but it
IS a Kolb with the same high lift, high drag wing profile. I am therefore modifying
my expectations for drag reduction results, from a several MPH increase
to zero change. If I want to go faster I'll just spend the money on gas by moving
the throttle forward, but won't expect much return for this expenditure :-).
Any more mods I do, will have to be justified by other factors. I'm still glad
I changed the tires because the 15x600-6 appear to be better tires for pavement
than the 800x6 tires. They also make the brakes more effective due to the smaller
diameter.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do
it.
- Pablo Picasso
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=300052#300052
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: slow flying MkIII's |
Yes, as a guesstimate 3.5 deg sounds about right.
john h mkIII
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 1:17 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: slow flying MkIII's
>
> Thanks for your thoughts on Lord Mounts, John.
>
> My mounts are very hard rubber and the engine does not appear to move much
> at all when tied down and run up. Unfortunately, the wet sump on the
> Jabiru is pretty deep which requires a fairly high mounting. My prop (only
> 64" diameter) clears the boom tube by at least 5-6" at rest.
>
> My question for you (and/or others) is this. The static (at rest) thrust
> line of the my engine is pointing upwards 3.5 degrees relative to the
> bottom of the wing. Is this about right, assuming my mounts are plenty
> hard? Note that the axis of the motor mount bolts is not vertical like on
> the Rotax but parallel to the longitudinal axis of the airplane. However I
> can still raise one side/end vs the other because this mount bolts to the
> Kolb engine tube. Not sure this shows in the attached photo, but that is
> all I have right now and my camera keeps quitting on me. Guess it is time
> for a new one.
>
> --------
> Thom Riddle
> Buffalo, NY (9G0)
> Kolb Slingshot SS-021
> Jabiru 2200A #1574
> Tennessee Prop 64x32
>
>
> I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how
> to do it.
> - Pablo Picasso
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=300051#300051
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/jabiru_engine_rt_rear_cropped_120.jpg
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Anyone going to Oshkosh? |
Thanks for the reply Chris and Richard. Hope to see you there. As the time
gets closer perhaps we can arrange to meet up and shake hands or something.
We will likely be camped at the other site to the south of Schollar. I can't
recall the name just now, but I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.
Duane
Message 10
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| Subject: | J-3 Kitten trade for Kolb |
A few months ago there was someone on Barnstormers that had a Kolb and wanted to
trade for a J-3 Kitten. Does anybody know who this was? I have a friend with
a Kitten who is thinking is selling it and might be interested in a Kolb.
Malcolm Morrison
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: drag conundrum |
Operating primarily on pavement with 800X6 I run 15 psi.
Improved grass 10 psi.
Rough unimproved 4 to 6 psi.
john h
mkIII
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 1:32 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: drag conundrum
>
> Dennis,
>
> Thanks much for your feedback. The SS is not quite as draggy as a MKIII
> but it IS a Kolb with the same high lift, high drag wing profile. I am
> therefore modifying my expectations for drag reduction results, from a
> several MPH increase to zero change. If I want to go faster I'll just
> spend the money on gas by moving the throttle forward, but won't expect
> much return for this expenditure :-).
>
> Any more mods I do, will have to be justified by other factors. I'm still
> glad I changed the tires because the 15x600-6 appear to be better tires
> for pavement than the 800x6 tires. They also make the brakes more
> effective due to the smaller diameter.
>
> --------
> Thom Riddle
> Buffalo, NY (9G0)
> Kolb Slingshot SS-021
> Jabiru 2200A #1574
> Tennessee Prop 64x32
>
>
> I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how
> to do it.
> - Pablo Picasso
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=300052#300052
>
>
>
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