Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:40 AM - Re: Elevator trim (clrprop)
2. 06:06 AM - Re: Re: Elevator trim (Mike Welch)
3. 06:36 AM - Re: Re: Elevator trim (John Hauck)
4. 06:41 AM - Re: Kolb-List Digest: 21 Msgs - 06/15/10 (Bob Green)
5. 08:36 AM - Re: Help with elevator cable (Richard Girard)
6. 10:35 AM - Re: Help with elevator cable (Richard Pike)
7. 11:22 AM - Re: Re: Help with elevator cable (robert bean)
8. 12:41 PM - Re: Re: Help with elevator cable (John Hauck)
9. 01:07 PM - Re: Help with elevator cable (Richard Pike)
10. 01:49 PM - Re: Re: Help with elevator cable (Frank Fanelli)
11. 03:18 PM - Re: Elevator trim (clrprop)
12. 04:02 PM - Re: Re: Elevator trim (John Hauck)
13. 04:11 PM - Re: Re: Help with elevator cable (John Hauck)
14. 04:23 PM - Re: Elevator trim (clrprop)
15. 04:40 PM - Re: Re: Help with elevator cable (Dana Hague)
16. 04:40 PM - Re: Re: Elevator trim (John Hauck)
17. 05:28 PM - Re: Elevator trim (clrprop)
18. 05:37 PM - Re: Elevator trim (Richard Pike)
19. 05:52 PM - Re: Elevator trim (clrprop)
20. 07:29 PM - Re: Elevator trim (clrprop)
21. 09:12 PM - Re: Re: Elevator trim (John Hauck)
22. 09:51 PM - Re: Elevator trim (clrprop)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator trim |
I'm wanting more down trim. CG is in range. With one person, forward pressure on
the stick is needed for level flight. Even with two people, up elevator trim
has never been needed.
I don't have any specs for the plane but hor. stab is attached at center of boom
rear and top of boom forward. I can check and find out how stab incidence compares
to wing.
K. Toney
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=301393#301393
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator trim |
> I'm wanting more down trim.
> K. Toney
Kolb guys=2C
Looks like it was me that misread what he was after. I read it that he n
eeded more "up" trim. Apologies to those who got it right.
Mike Welch
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator trim |
> I'm wanting more down trim.
>
> K. Toney
If it was mine (I think we are talking about a MKIII) I would droop the
ailerons and flaps a litttle at a time until I got the aircraft trimmed up
in pitch.
Normally, MKIII's require a lot of nose up pitch trim, especially under
power.
john h
mkIII
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| Subject: | RE: Kolb-List Digest: 21 Msgs - 06/15/10 |
Tina: The Kolbers are really a bunch of nice people. We are a little jealous
over the Kolb list...
Frank: You are on the right track with the cable change. Enjoy your plane.
Bob
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Help with elevator cable |
Frank, Since you have no way on knowing how much, if any, stretch has taken
place with your old cables, don't try to duplicate them. Instead, fully
fabricate the end of the cable that attaches to the control surface end and
use a cable clamp to set the turnbuckle end (leave two threads showing on
the turnbuckle to allow for tensioning). When you are satisfied that all is
correct remove the cable from the aircraft and finish the fabrication on the
bench.
If you've not made cables before you might want to review FAA Advisory
Circular AC 43.13-1B, "Acceptable Methods, Techniques, and Practices
Aircraft Inspection, Repair and Alterations", chapter 7-148, page 7-33.
Notice that it shows only a single sleeve and how to swage it properly.
Despite old hangar tales to the contrary using a second sleeve to tie down
the loose end of the cable does absolutely nothing for the strength or
safety of the cable and only offers the opportunity to make a bad cable by
introducing bubbles and twists into the termination.
Last, be sure and get yourself an inspection gauge so you'll know you have
the correct amount of compression on the sleeve. See:
http://versales.com/ns/nicopress/gogauge.html
<http://versales.com/ns/nicopress/gogauge.html>as one source.
Rick Girard
On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Frank Fanelli <frankf@flying-models.com>wrote:
> On 6/14/2010 2:52 PM, b young wrote:
>
> Frank
>
>
> Can't help with plans.... but seems you have one to copy. If you tie a
> small rope to one end and pull it through... make a new cable the same
> length as the old. Then pull back in place with the rope to reinstall.
>
>
> The only problem with this is if there had been any major stretch to the
> cable. In which case you would make it a bit shorter, you could check for
> this by seeing how much adjustment is in the turnbuckle. Middle of the
> adjustment make the same length,,, adjustment all the way in,,, make it a
> bit shorter, so you will have room to adjust again.
>
>
> The economy swaging tool seem to work ok for me.
>
>
> Boyd Young
>
> MKIII 640 hours
>
> Utah
>
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
>
>
> Called Kolb and got the part numbers for all the cable components but I
>
> don't have a set plans, just the building instructions. Nothing much in
>
> there about the procedure for re-installing the cables, so I'm asking
>
> for some guidance. I do know they need to be taut, and each cable must
>
> stay that way when the stick is moved forward and back. Also know that
>
> one cable can't go slack when the other is taut.
>
>
> Also need to know if the economy swaging tools (the screw type) can be
>
> used easily when doing this. Welcome your insights.
>
>
> Frank Fanelli
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> *
>
> Boyd:
>
> Thanks for the quick reply. You're right. That's what I was going to do.
> Just wasn't sure if there was a guide of some kind inside the boom tube.
> Also wasn't sure if there was a spec for cable length on the plans. I deal
> with radio control planes and the larger ones have gone to cable systems for
> the rudders especially and know that the cable need to be equally tensioned,
> the same situation with the Firestar
>
> Well, ordered the bits and pieces today and hopefully will get into it by
> and during the weekend. Those first three flights to get the feel of the
> plane definitely whet my appetite for a lot more flying.
>
> Frank Fanelli
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Help with elevator cable |
rickofudall wrote:
>
> Despite old hangar tales to the contrary using a second sleeve to tie down the
loose end of the cable does absolutely nothing for the strength or safety of
the cable and only offers the opportunity to make a bad cable by introducing
bubbles and twists into the termination.
> Rick Girard
> [b]
Back in 1979, I built my first motorized hang glider, it was a Quicksilver, built
it from plans, and my wife sewed the sails on her sewing machine in our living
room. I took a Yamaha dirt bike engine, sawed off the transmission and welded
a big flat washer to the primary gear where I bolted on a direct drive prop
- which is still hanging on the wall of my workshop.
At that time North American Rockwell had an aircraft factory at Albany, GA, they
built Thrushes and Aero Commander 112's & 114's there. A friend of mine worked
there, and was helping with the project, and when it came time to fabricate
some cables, he checked out one of the factory's big bolt cutter type nicopress
tools. But not a gauge. Hey, it was the same tool the factory used every day,
it would be good, right?
We made up a couple test swages on a short length of cable and they looked pretty
good, and it occurred to me to wonder how strong they were. So I hooked one
thimble over a nail in the garage roof, stuck a screwdriver through the thimble
on the other end and attempted a chin up. (I never claimed to be smart...)
The cable pulled through the swaged sleeve and (naturally) I smashed myself in
the bridge of the nose with a screwdriver blade held crosswise as hard as I could.
He took that swage tool back, got a different one, and I have double sleeved ever
since. Yes, I know what AC 43-13 says, I have one on my shelf, I also know
that sleeves are cheap, and if you practice a bit, double sleeves will turn out
ok. If not, I also know how to split a sleeve with a sharp cold chisel and redo
that end. Or throw it away and start over, which is better than having a cable
pull out, like happened on a local Kitfox a few years back. Fortunately it
was only the single sleeved cable that went to his tailwheel for steering, and
although the groundloop nearly totaled it, he walked away, along with his little
daughter who was riding with him. Interesting that I was the EAA Technical
Counselor who looked at his airplane, and I mentioned to him that all his cables
were single sleeved. He said that was what AC 43-13 called for, and we left
it at that.
Also, you might want to take a look at page 122 of Tony Bingelis' book "The Sportplane
Builder," the drawing at the bottom of the page shows how to - in his
words - "use double sleeve application for extra strength."
Tony's old hangar tales are good enough for me.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=301436#301436
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Help with elevator cable |
all swages were not created equal....
BB
do not archive
On 16, Jun 2010, at 1:35 PM, Richard Pike wrote:
>
>
> rickofudall wrote:
>>
>> Despite old hangar tales to the contrary using a second sleeve to tie down the
loose end of the cable does absolutely nothing for the strength or safety of
the cable and only offers the opportunity to make a bad cable by introducing
bubbles and twists into the termination.
>> Rick Girard
>> [b]
>
>
> Back in 1979, I built my first motorized hang glider, it was a Quicksilver, built
it from plans, and my wife sewed the sails on her sewing machine in our living
room. I took a Yamaha dirt bike engine, sawed off the transmission and welded
a big flat washer to the primary gear where I bolted on a direct drive prop
- which is still hanging on the wall of my workshop.
>
> At that time North American Rockwell had an aircraft factory at Albany, GA, they
built Thrushes and Aero Commander 112's & 114's there. A friend of mine worked
there, and was helping with the project, and when it came time to fabricate
some cables, he checked out one of the factory's big bolt cutter type nicopress
tools. But not a gauge. Hey, it was the same tool the factory used every
day, it would be good, right?
>
> We made up a couple test swages on a short length of cable and they looked pretty
good, and it occurred to me to wonder how strong they were. So I hooked one
thimble over a nail in the garage roof, stuck a screwdriver through the thimble
on the other end and attempted a chin up. (I never claimed to be smart...)
The cable pulled through the swaged sleeve and (naturally) I smashed myself
in the bridge of the nose with a screwdriver blade held crosswise as hard as I
could.
>
> He took that swage tool back, got a different one, and I have double sleeved
ever since. Yes, I know what AC 43-13 says, I have one on my shelf, I also know
that sleeves are cheap, and if you practice a bit, double sleeves will turn
out ok. If not, I also know how to split a sleeve with a sharp cold chisel and
redo that end. Or throw it away and start over, which is better than having a
cable pull out, like happened on a local Kitfox a few years back. Fortunately
it was only the single sleeved cable that went to his tailwheel for steering,
and although the groundloop nearly totaled it, he walked away, along with his
little daughter who was riding with him. Interesting that I was the EAA Technical
Counselor who looked at his airplane, and I mentioned to him that all his
cables were single sleeved. He said that was what AC 43-13 called for, and we
left it at that.
>
> Also, you might want to take a look at page 122 of Tony Bingelis' book "The Sportplane
Builder," the drawing at the bottom of the page shows how to - in his
words - "use double sleeve application for extra strength."
> Tony's old hangar tales are good enough for me.
>
> Richard Pike
> MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=301436#301436
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Help with elevator cable |
>> Despite old hangar tales to the contrary using a second sleeve to tie
down the loose end of the cable does absolutely nothing for the strength or
safety of the cable and only offers the opportunity to make a bad cable by
introducing bubbles and twists into the termination.
>> Rick Girard
Rick G/Gang:
I will continue to use two sleeves on each cable connection, especially
3/32" and smaller, 7X19 cable .
Smaller the cable, finer the wire, means less area for grip.
I did very unscientific pull tests with 3/32" 7X19 many years ago. Used an
8,000 lb winch on my old Toyota Land Cruiser. Single sleeve connections
always failed before the double sleeve connections. The results convinced
me to keep on doing what Homer Kolb told me to do. I still do.
BTW: All sleeves were squeezed with the same tool and checked with the same
GO-NO GO gauge.
john h
mkIII
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Help with elevator cable |
John Hauck wrote:
> >>
>
> I did very unscientific pull tests with 3/32" 7X19 many years ago. Used an
> 8,000 lb winch on my old Toyota Land Cruiser.
> john h
> mkIII
Beats the heck out of pulling down on a piece of metal 2' above yer head... [Rolling
Eyes]
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Do Not Archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=301456#301456
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Help with elevator cable |
John:
What's your recommendation for a swaging tool? I couldn't justify
spending over $100 for a swaging tool and the economy bolt press looked
somewhat unwieldy. So I found an 18-inch long swaging tool at Home Depot
that handles a few sleeve sizes including the 3/32 I need for the 7x19
elevator cable. Do you think it will be strong enough? I guess the go-no
go gauge will be the final judge.
Frank Fanelli
On 6/16/2010 3:24 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>
>
> >> Despite old hangar tales to the contrary using a second sleeve to
> tie down the loose end of the cable does absolutely nothing for the
> strength or safety of the cable and only offers the opportunity to
> make a bad cable by introducing bubbles and twists into the termination.
>>> Rick Girard
>
>
> Rick G/Gang:
>
> I will continue to use two sleeves on each cable connection,
> especially 3/32" and smaller, 7X19 cable .
>
> Smaller the cable, finer the wire, means less area for grip.
>
> I did very unscientific pull tests with 3/32" 7X19 many years ago.
> Used an 8,000 lb winch on my old Toyota Land Cruiser. Single sleeve
> connections always failed before the double sleeve connections. The
> results convinced me to keep on doing what Homer Kolb told me to do.
> I still do.
>
> BTW: All sleeves were squeezed with the same tool and checked with
> the same GO-NO GO gauge.
>
> john h
> mkIII
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator trim |
I'll do that John. Thanks.
Ailerons and flaps are neutral, or in line with the bottom of the wing now. Should
drag stay the same since I won't be having to add down elevator?
K. Toney
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=301464#301464
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator trim |
> I'll do that John. Thanks.
> Ailerons and flaps are neutral, or in line with the bottom of the wing
> now. Should drag stay the same since I won't be having to add down
> elevator?
>
> K. Toney
K.Toney/Gang:
What the airplane components look like on the ground (what their positions
are) are not necessarily what they look like in the air.
Have no idea about drag, but if it were me, I would not be concerned about
it.
john h
mkIII
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Help with elevator cable |
> What's your recommendation for a swaging tool? I couldn't justify
> spending over $100 for a swaging tool and the economy bolt press looked
> somewhat unwieldy. So I found an 18-inch long swaging tool at Home Depot
> that handles a few sleeve sizes including the 3/32 I need for the 7x19
> elevator cable. Do you think it will be strong enough? I guess the go-no
> go gauge will be the final judge.
>
> Frank Fanelli
Give Travis a call at Kolb Aircraft. He can get you one in the mail.
GO-NO GO gauge is critical.
Make sure the nicroprees sleeve is inserted into the tool correctly. They
can be inserted 90 deg out and give the inexperienced cable maker the
impression it is the correctly positioned to press. I did just that on my
Ultrastar in 1984. Every connection was the same. Every connection had the
potential to fail. Brother Jim picked up my mistake before I had a chance
to kill myself. I can do it correctly now.
john h
mkIII
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator trim |
I'm not sure I understand. We're talking about changing the length of the control
rods so ailerons and/or flaps will have a little down in them? Wouldn't that
be noticeable on the ground with the stick centered?
K. Toney
Sorry if I'm not following protocol with quotes and all. I'm not sure how all that
works...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=301473#301473
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| Subject: | Re: Help with elevator cable |
At 01:35 PM 6/16/2010, Richard Pike wrote:
>.....he checked out one of the factory's big bolt cutter type nicopress
>tools. But not a gauge. Hey, it was the same tool the factory used every
>day, it would be good, right?
I'll go so far as to say the gauge is even more important than the swaging
tool. Regardless of what kind of tool you have (I use the cheap bolt
type), checking the swages with a gauge is an absolute MUST!!!
However, if you don't have a gauge, you can make the same check with an
accurate micrometer or dial caliper if you have the max size specs. I have
a copy somewhere; can't find it at the moment but a web search should turn
it up.
A properly installed swage should hold the full rated strength of the
cable. Using two sleeves adds nothing, unless one of them is not installed
properly. Still, it can't hurt, as long as the short end is very slightly
looser than the primary cable. Otherwise it can cause a bending load that
may actually weaken the connection.
-Dana
--
The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator trim |
> I'm not sure I understand. We're talking about changing the length of the
> control rods so ailerons and/or flaps will have a little down in them?
> Wouldn't that be noticeable on the ground with the stick centered?
>
> K. Toney
Yes, you will see some position change on the ground, but the control
surfaces will not be in the same position when the mkIII is flying.
If they are drooped a little on the ground, they are going to fly a little
higher in the air.
Same thing occurs when playing with engine thrust lines. The engine takes
on a different position in the air when under power than when sitting static
on the ground.
john h
mkIII
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator trim |
So if the control surfaces are flushed up with the wing on the ground, they could
all be pointing up a bit in flight?
Either way, I think this will solve my problem.
K Toney
Mark IIIc
SC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=301488#301488
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator trim |
clrprop wrote:
> So if the control surfaces are flushed up with the wing on the ground, they could
all be pointing up a bit in flight?
> Either way, I think this will solve my problem.
>
> K Toney
>
> Mark IIIc
> SC
Yes, if they are flush with the wing on the ground, they will be reflexed up in
the air, the airplane will act tail heavy in cruise, and you will need forward
stick. Adjusting aileron droop is the best way to fine tune a Kolb in trim,
just like John said.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=301489#301489
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator trim |
Good to go. Thanks all for your help.
K Toney
MarkIIIc
SC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=301490#301490
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator trim |
Just one more question.
What is best, adjust the ailerons, the flaps, or both?
K Toney
MarkIIIc
SC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=301498#301498
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator trim |
> What is best, adjust the ailerons, the flaps, or both?
>
> K Toney
K Toney/Folks:
I don't think it matters.
One way to get an idea of how much nose down trim you will require through
drooping the ailerons and flaps is fly the airplane at cruise speed, reach
up and start slowly pulling flaps in until you get close to your pitch trim.
Look over at the flap, note and remember about how much it is drooped.
john h
mkIII
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator trim |
I'll do that.
I think adjusting both might be best to have smoothest airflow over the wings.
K Toney
MarkIIIc
SC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=301515#301515
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