---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 06/22/10: 27 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 09:12 AM - Re: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 06/11/10 (Greg) 2. 09:34 AM - Re: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 06/11/10 (John Hauck) 3. 10:35 AM - Re: Kolb-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 06/21/10 (Bob Green) 4. 11:03 AM - Re: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 06/21/10 (John Hauck) 5. 01:05 PM - fluttering control surfaces (Mike Welch) 6. 02:03 PM - Re: fluttering control surfaces (John Hauck) 7. 03:28 PM - Re: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 06/21/10 (Robert Dresden) 8. 04:41 PM - New guy with repair questions (Chris_A) 9. 05:00 PM - Re: New guy with repair questions (John Hauck) 10. 05:15 PM - Re: New guy with repair questions (Larry Johnson) 11. 05:36 PM - Re: New guy with repair questions (william sullivan) 12. 06:12 PM - Re: New guy with repair questions (Richard Girard) 13. 06:14 PM - Re: New guy with repair questions (Chris_A) 14. 06:32 PM - Re: New guy with repair questions (frank goodnight) 15. 06:51 PM - Re: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions (frank goodnight) 16. 07:02 PM - Re: Re: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions (John Hauck) 17. 07:02 PM - Re: Re: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions (robert bean) 18. 07:34 PM - Re: Re: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions (Dennis Souder) 19. 07:37 PM - Re: Re: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions (Richard Girard) 20. 07:45 PM - Re: Re: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions (John Hauck) 21. 07:48 PM - Re: Re: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions (John Hauck) 22. 08:00 PM - Re: Re: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions (Arksey@aol.com) 23. 08:00 PM - Re: Re: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions (Arksey@aol.com) 24. 08:11 PM - Re: fly in lunch planned for thur (24th) Plainwell, Mich. (61D) (Arksey@aol.com) 25. 08:23 PM - Re: Re: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions (Dana Hague) 26. 09:38 PM - Re: New guy with repair questions (Chris_A) 27. 09:49 PM - Re: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions (Chris_A) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 09:12:44 AM PST US From: "Greg" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 06/11/10 I experienced it on my first flight around the patch as I was turning final, and when it happened I remembered what Mike Fisher tokd me about it being caused by air speed. I looked at my asi and it was at about 90 mph, (I don't know how accurate that 90 is), but I just did what Mike said and cut the power and pulled back on the stick and it went away instantly. After that for the rest of my flights I kept it at about 75 max in a dive and had know issues at all. I may put counter balances on in the future but as long as I control the air speed it is not an issue. Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hauck" Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 6:12 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 06/11/10 > > > I remember all the advice you guys give me and >> I remember what Mike Fisher told me about aileron flutter and it was like >> you were all in the plane with me. Thanks and happy flying. >> Greg > > > What do you intend to do about the aileron flutter problem? > > john h > mkIII > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:34:05 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 06/11/10 Aileron counter balance weights make the problem go away permanently. They are available from Kolb Aircraft. Give Travis a call. They are simple to install, and excellent insurance.. Aileron flutter is not always initiated the same way. Excessive air speed is the most common, but turbulence, power settings, and attitude may initiate aileron flutter at much slower air speeds. I can speak from experience based on my three Kolbs that all suffered from aileron flutter until I installed counter balance weights on the mkIII. Prior to installation of counter balance weights, I was changing out rod end bearings constantly, snugging up linkages, and praying. The present rod end bearings on the mkIII have nearly 2,800 hours, are a little sloppy, but never a hint of aileron flutter since the addition of counterbalance weights. john h mkIII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg" Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 5:55 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 06/11/10 > > I experienced it on my first flight around the patch as I was turning > final, and when it happened I remembered what Mike Fisher tokd me about it > being caused by air speed. I looked at my asi and it was at about 90 mph, > (I don't know how accurate that 90 is), but I just did what Mike said and > cut the power and pulled back on the stick and it went away instantly. > After that for the rest of my flights I kept it at about 75 max in a dive > and had know issues at all. I may put counter balances on in the future > but as long as I control the air speed it is not an issue. > Greg > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Hauck" > To: > Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 6:12 PM > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 06/11/10 > > >> >> >> I remember all the advice you guys give me and >>> I remember what Mike Fisher told me about aileron flutter and it was >>> like you were all in the plane with me. Thanks and happy flying. >>> Greg >> >> >> >> >> What do you intend to do about the aileron flutter problem? >> >> john h >> mkIII >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:35:45 AM PST US From: Bob Green Subject: Kolb-List: RE: Kolb-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 06/21/10 I was interested to know about the type five exhaust... but also about the answer to the question presented by John about what would be done about aileron flutter??? Thanks... Bob ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:03:17 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: RE: Kolb-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 06/21/10 > I was interested to know about the type five exhaust... but also about the > answer to the question presented by John about what would be done about > aileron flutter??? > Thanks... > Bob My experience to kill aileron flutter: A-Immediately reduce power to idle. B-Pull back hard on the stick to help kill air speed. C-Try to load the ailerons with left or right stick. Now...depending on how rapid and violent the aileron flutter, you may not be able to accomplish B and C. Why? If the ailerons are fluttering violently, so is the control stick. The stick will be wiping out the cockpit laterally from lock to lock, or from thigh to thigh. You probably will not be able to grab it until you get slowed down a bit. Kolb pilots should always be aware of what their airplanes are doing. Despite the draggy nature of Kolbs, they accelerate quite rapidly when the nose is dropped with power. Install aileron counter balance weights and you will not have to remember A, B, or C. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:05:30 PM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: Kolb-List: fluttering control surfaces > My experience to kill aileron flutter: > > john h > mkIII (subject line changed to reflect the proper discussion) Hey John=2C On the subject of flutter=2C do you have elevator balance? Have you ever experienced elevator flutter in any way? Plus=2C same thing for rudder=2C any fluttering or looseness? Mike Welch _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search=2C chat and e-mail from your inbox .. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:O N:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:03:56 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: fluttering control surfaces For some reason those big ole elevators have not been a problem. However, many Kolbs of all models seem to experience rudder flutter. Normally, rudder flutter starts very subtly, barely noticeable, until one looks at the wing tip and sees it shuffling fore and aft. It can and will get violent if allowed to progress. Normal preventive procedure is keep feet on the rudder pedals with a little pressure. I have my own theory of why, and how to fix, but will not go into it now, typing with two fingers. john h mkIII On the subject of flutter, do you have elevator balance? Have you ever experienced elevator flutter in any way? Plus, same thing for rudder, any fluttering or looseness? Mike Welch ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:28:40 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: RE: Kolb-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 06/21/10 From: Robert Dresden Bob, HKS offers 5 different configurations. Here's a link http://www.greenskyadventures.com/EnginePricing/HKS/optionDecissions/FactoryExhaust.htm Bob Dresden Firestar 646F On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 11:32 AM, Bob Green wrote: > > I was interested to know about the type five exhaust... but also about the > answer to the question presented by John about what would be done about > aileron flutter??? > Thanks... > Bob > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:41:37 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: New guy with repair questions From: "Chris_A" <50calibercruiser@cox.net> Hi, my name is Chris I recently purchased a Firestar and have been spending a fair amount of time on the list gleaning information. Well all was fine with the plane until last Friday when I hauled it on my open trailer down the freeway. I have been hauling it about 15 miles on the weekends to a small uncontrolled airport without issue. But on this longer and faster trip I managed to break the fuselage tube just behind the support stand I built. I have ordered a replacement from Kolb (Travis is a super guy to work with). I was just wondering if anyone has any tips or tricks when it comes to replacing the tube. Here are the pictures of the damage. Thanks Chris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302108#302108 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/rightside_175.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/leftside_109.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/bottom_180.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/top_993.jpg ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:00:23 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: New guy with repair questions I was just wondering if anyone has any tips or tricks when it comes to replacing the tube. Here are the pictures of the damage. > > Thanks > > Chris I'm guessing you never built a Kolb. Removing the damaged tailboom is a major task. Replacing the tailboom is a major contruction project: -cutting to correct length. -fitting to fuselage and installing the H brace. -rigging and installing the tailsection. Recommend you obtain a Contruction Manual and Plan Sheets for that project. Good luck. Still scratching my head how a tailboom could be destroyed like that. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:15:29 PM PST US From: Larry Johnson Subject: Re: Kolb-List: New guy with repair questions Hi Chris How about a picture of your support stand. I agree with John...I'm scratching to figure this out. L On 6/22/2010 7:59 PM, John Hauck wrote: > > > I was just wondering if anyone has any tips or tricks when it comes to > replacing the tube. Here are the pictures of the damage. >> >> Thanks >> >> Chris > > > I'm guessing you never built a Kolb. > > Removing the damaged tailboom is a major task. > > Replacing the tailboom is a major contruction project: > > -cutting to correct length. > > -fitting to fuselage and installing the H brace. > > -rigging and installing the tailsection. > > Recommend you obtain a Contruction Manual and Plan Sheets for that > project. > > Good luck. > > Still scratching my head how a tailboom could be destroyed like that. > > john h > mkIII > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:36:08 PM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Re: New guy with repair questions -- Chris- Two years ago I crashed my original Firestar on landing.- M y fault, ignorance.- The first thing I can suggest is to take lots of pho tos of everything from all angles.- including parts that are not damaged. - Next- never throw anything away until the job is completely done.- Me asure and draw all items- make your own "blueprint" in terms you will under stand quite a while from now.- Pretend you are doing it for somebody else .. - I drilled all of the rivets carefully, so as not to do any further dama ge.- Take a magic marker, and mark the tail up, down, front, rear, right and left.-Mark the front, as well as the tail. -This sounds like overki ll, but some markings may be erased or confused later on.- - Get help to hold the various parts when removing, as they could twist. - Take the tail feathers and landing skeg off first.- The cables can be pulled to the front, and tucked out of the way.- Drill the front support ring rivets before pulling out the cross bolt.- There is an "H" brace wh ere the cross bolt is- you can see the rivets.- Remove the rivets after t he tube is out.- I poked the brace out with a 2 x 4.- - I cut the tube with a circular saw and a carbide blade, and was able to use the old tube parts for a template.- Remember that the template now h as offset holes due to material thickness.- I found that the holes were a bout 1/2 the rivet diameter high, due to material thickness.- The "H" bra ce was inserted with a 2 x 4, with a couple of pieces of scrap wood screwed to each side.- A rope was passed around the brace, so I could pull it ba ck if needed, and the wood scrap was for turning it.- - The rear was drill by leveling the cage, and centering the template to top dead center.- Again, the side hole were about 1/2 hole off.- - This may not be the factory approved way to do it, but it worked well f or me.- Good luck, and wait for others to check in. - ------------------------- --------------------- Bill Sulliv an ------------------------- --------------------- Windsor Loc ks, Ct. ------------------------- --------------------- FS 447 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:12:50 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: New guy with repair questions From: Richard Girard John, Larry, I've written on this before in advice to those bringing a new-to-them Kolb home. The answer is quite simple, excessive G loading on a point. In another life I was the junior engineer at a company that produced collater / stackers for the printing industry. I got tagged to spend two days at the Yellow Freight packaging lab in Kansas City filming the results of typical stresses involved in over the road transport. One of the things that struck me and stuck with me is that a simple tar strip, that tha-thump, tha-thump seems innocuous when riding in a car but it's murder on packaging. It can represent a 6G load if the package isn't properly damped. Apparently in this case it wasn't. Rick Girard On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 6:41 PM, Chris_A <50calibercruiser@cox.net> wrote: > > Hi, my name is Chris I recently purchased a Firestar and have been spending > a fair amount of time on the list gleaning information. Well all was fine > with the plane until last Friday when I hauled it on my open trailer down > the freeway. I have been hauling it about 15 miles on the weekends to a > small uncontrolled airport without issue. But on this longer and faster trip > I managed to break the fuselage tube just behind the support stand I built. > I have ordered a replacement from Kolb (Travis is a super guy to work with). > I was just wondering if anyone has any tips or tricks when it comes to > replacing the tube. Here are the pictures of the damage. > > Thanks > > Chris > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302108#302108 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/rightside_175.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/leftside_109.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/bottom_180.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/top_993.jpg > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:14:25 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: New guy with repair questions From: "Chris_A" <50calibercruiser@cox.net> Thanks for the replies. No I have never built a Kolb, but I have plenty of experience with similar projects. I bought the firestar out of an estate sale and this plane was the love of the owners life. I have all the original plans and manuals and have been studying them. I will take a picture of the support and post it ASAP. Travis said the same thing regarding the damage, first time he has heard of it. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302120#302120 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:32:40 PM PST US From: frank goodnight Subject: Re: Kolb-List: New guy with repair questions Hi Chris, Those are some sad shots of your a/c. As I haul my firestar 6 or 7 thousand miles a year on a open trailer @ 65 to75 mph I would sure like to see a picture of your boom stand.Depends, I might even want to pull the paint off and dye check that area. Sorry I don't have any tips for you but I think it should be simple job to replace the tube. Frank Goodnight Brownsville ,Tx ________________________________ From: Chris_A <50calibercruiser@cox.net> Sent: Tue, June 22, 2010 6:41:22 PM Subject: Kolb-List: New guy with repair questions Hi, my name is Chris I recently purchased a Firestar and have been spending a fair amount of time on the list gleaning information. Well all was fine with the plane until last Friday when I hauled it on my open trailer down the freeway. I have been hauling it about 15 miles on the weekends to a small uncontrolled airport without issue. But on this longer and faster trip I managed to break the fuselage tube just behind the support stand I built. I have ordered a replacement from Kolb (Travis is a super guy to work with). I was just wondering if anyone has any tips or tricks when it comes to replacing the tube. Here are the pictures of the damage. Thanks Chris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302108#302108 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/rightside_175.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/leftside_109.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/bottom_180.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/top_993.jpg ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:51:57 PM PST US From: frank goodnight Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions Hi John and all, Just idle thoughts , could someone tell me why it would not be ok to sleeve the broken area with an inside and a outside sleeve , say 18to 24 in long, T4 or T6 , plenty of rivits and whatever thickness you are comfy with. Frank Goodnight Firestar 2 Brownsville, TX ________________________________ From: John Hauck Sent: Tue, June 22, 2010 6:59:28 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: New guy with repair questions I was just wondering if anyone has any tips or tricks when it comes to replacing the tube. Here are the pictures of the damage. > > Thanks > > Chris I'm guessing you never built a Kolb. Removing the damaged tailboom is a major task. Replacing the tailboom is a major contruction project: -cutting to correct length. -fitting to fuselage and installing the H brace. -rigging and installing the tailsection. Recommend you obtain a Contruction Manual and Plan Sheets for that project. Good luck. Still scratching my head how a tailboom could be destroyed like that. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:02:49 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions No way I would ever be comfortable with a spliced tailboom. May be an acceptable method of repair, but I would not go that route. Too much riding on it for me. Where I play is very unforgiving for dumb mistakes. john h mkIII ----- Original Message ----- From: frank goodnight To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 8:50 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions Hi John and all, Just idle thoughts , could someone tell me why it would not be ok to sleeve the broken area with an inside and a outside sleeve , say 18to 24 in long, T4 or T6 , plenty of rivits and whatever thickness you are comfy with. Frank Goodnight Firestar 2 Brownsville, TX ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: John Hauck To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Tue, June 22, 2010 6:59:28 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: New guy with repair questions ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:02:54 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions -or just chop it at the break and use a short tail :) Seriously, if you could find tubing that telescoped internally in a perfect fit, stuck in about a foot, it would be strong enough. You might run into a little problem with the legal angle even though it is experimental. BB On 22, Jun 2010, at 9:50 PM, frank goodnight wrote: > Hi John and all, > Just idle thoughts , could someone tell me why it would not be ok to sleeve the broken area with an inside > and a outside sleeve , say 18to 24 in long, T4 or T6 , plenty of rivits and whatever thickness you are comfy with. > > Frank Goodnight > Firestar 2 > Brownsville, TX > > From: John Hauck > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Sent: Tue, June 22, 2010 6:59:28 PM > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: New guy with repair questions > > > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:34:01 PM PST US From: "Dennis Souder" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions Frank and all, A properly designed spice could provide 100% of the tube strength. The Laser had a spliced wing spar. The root spar was 5=94 x =BC=94 wall. The middle spar was 5=94 x 1/8=94 wall and the outer spar was 5=94 x .049=94 wall. The 5=94 x 1/8=94 wall spar was turned down at the end so the 5=94 x .049 was a nice slip fit. A splice could be made in a similar way. A short section, say 12=94 would be turned down on both ends leaving a short ridge in the center to butt the fuselage tube against ' this would ensure the splice was centered. Stresses at the tail are much less than further forward ' except for improper trailering! The very end of the turned down section would need to be rounded so as to not stress the fuselage tube ' that is how we did the Laser. The rivets would transmit the torsional loads and the splice tube itself would take up most of the bending strength even without rivets. The length of the splice would need to be determined, 1 ft might not be enough, but 2 ft would be too much =85 so somewhere in between. This is an easy problem to solve using Cosmos FEA and Solidworks. The splice would be made of 6061-T6 and the turned down section would be stronger than the 6063 alum the fuselage is made from. The rivet pattern would need to be engineered properly, another task for Cosmos. Dennis _____ From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of frank goodnight Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 9:50 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions Hi John and all, Just idle thoughts , could someone tell me why it would not be ok to sleeve the broken area with an inside and a outside sleeve , say 18to 24 in long, T4 or T6 , plenty of rivits and whatever thickness you are comfy with. Frank Goodnight Firestar 2 Brownsville, TX _____ From: John Hauck Sent: Tue, June 22, 2010 6:59:28 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: New guy with repair questions ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:37:03 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions From: Richard Girard The biggest problem would be finding telescoping sizes of tubing. For an internal splice you'd need 4 7/8" .058 or .065 wall. Not exactly a common size. Same for an external sleeve, 5 1/8" .058 wall isn't listed anywhere I can find either. Better to just go the route you've started down and replace the tube. Since you've already been in touch with Travis, have him send you a new "H" frame. You'll play hell trying to match up the rivet holes in the old one and leaving them unfilled and drilling new ones is just asking for a place for cracks to start. Rick Girard On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 9:02 PM, robert bean wrote: > -or just chop it at the break and use a short tail :) > > Seriously, if you could find tubing that telescoped internally in a perfect > fit, stuck in about a foot, it would be > strong enough. You might run into a little problem with the legal angle > even though it is experimental. > BB > > On 22, Jun 2010, at 9:50 PM, frank goodnight wrote: > > Hi John and all, > Just idle thoughts , could someone tell me why it would not be ok to sleeve > the broken area with an inside > and a outside sleeve , say 18to 24 in long, T4 or T6 , plenty of rivits and > whatever thickness you are comfy with. > > Frank Goodnight > Firestar 2 > Brownsville, TX > > ------------------------------ > *From:* John Hauck > *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Tue, June 22, 2010 6:59:28 PM > *Subject:* Re: Kolb-List: New guy with repair questions > > * > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > * > > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:45:19 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions Rick: The biggest problem would be to find 5" tubes that were precisely sized. These tubes are manufactured primarily for irrigation pipe. Circumference of a 6" tube can change a lot from one end to the next. Getting a tube to fit a ring can be a pain in the butt, when factoring in the ring can also be a tad too small The biggest problem would be finding telescoping sizes of tubing. For an internal splice you'd need 4 7/8" .058 or .065 wall. Not exactly a common size. Same for an external sleeve, 5 1/8" .058 wall isn't listed anywhere I can find either. Better to just go the route you've started down and replace the tube. Since you've already been in touch with Travis, have him send you a new "H" frame. You'll play hell trying to match up the rivet holes in the old one and leaving them unfilled and drilling new ones is just asking for a place for cracks to start. Rick Girard ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:48:54 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions Hit the wrong darn button before I finished writing my response. What I was trying to say was no two tubes, 5" and 6", are created equal. No two ends of one of those tubes will be the same size. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:00:44 PM PST US From: Arksey@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions Hi John and all, Just idle thoughts , could someone tell me why it would not be ok to sleeve the broken area with an inside and a outside sleeve , say 18to 24 in long, T4 or T6 , plenty of rivits and whatever thickness you are comfy with. Frank Goodnight Firestar 2 Brownsville, TX Hi Frank, I saw a Drifter that had the boom tube spliced...looked good...was done by a experenced repair man....but it was a neat square cut on the boom tube with a sleeve inside that was quite long.....looked to me like it would be ok....but in Chris's case the boom tube looks to bad to be spliced....I agree with John H. best to replace the whole boom tube....will be interesting to find out how this happened.....bad deal....Jim Swan ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:00:44 PM PST US From: Arksey@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions Hi Frank, I saw a Drifter that had the boom tube spliced...looked good...was done by a experenced repair man....but it was a neat square cut on the boom tube with a sleeve inside that was quite long.....looked to me like it would be ok....but in Chris's case the boom tube looks to bad to be spliced....I agree with John H. best to replace the whole boom tube....will be interesting to find out how this happened.....bad deal....Jim Swan Do not archive FIRESTAR ll 503 Michigan jswan GPS FOR MY RUNWAY N 42 deg 28.581 W084deg 44.825 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 08:11:53 PM PST US From: Arksey@aol.com Subject: Kolb-List: re: fly in lunch planned for thur (24th) Plainwell, Mich. (61D) Gang, some of us are planning on meeting thur. the 24th at 12 noon mich. time for lunch at the restaurant on the field at Plainwell, Mich 61D weather looks ok....everyone welcome..there will be several Kolbs there..Jim Swan Do not archive FIRESTAR ll 503 Michigan jswan GPS FOR MY RUNWAY N 42 deg 28.581 W084deg 44.825 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 08:23:04 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions When splicing a tube like that, a common method is to use a piece of the original tube, split lengthwise just enough so it will squeeze down into the original tube. Not as strong as the original in torsion, but a similar outside sleeve 180=B0 apart would handle that and then some... though close to the tail where this damage should normally be much lower stressed than farther forward. Based on the pictures, it appears that it's cracked around the bottom.... correct? In this case it looks as though the tailboom was forced upwards aft of this. Where was the support relative to the brek? Rick, I feel stupid. I've wondered how one would replace a tailboom and match the rivet holes. I never thought of the obvious, replace the H-section with a new undrilled one along with the tailboom. -Dana At 10:36 PM 6/22/2010, Richard Girard wrote: >The biggest problem would be finding telescoping sizes of tubing. For an >internal splice you'd need 4 7/8" .058 or .065 wall. Not exactly a common >size. Same for an external sleeve, 5 1/8" .058 wall isn't listed anywhere >I can find either. >Better to just go the route you've started down and replace the tube. >Since you've already been in touch with Travis, have him send you a new >"H" frame. You'll play hell trying to match up the rivet holes in the old >one and leaving them unfilled and drilling new ones is just asking for a >place for cracks to start. -- Why did the chicken cross the Mobius strip? To get to the other, er, um.... ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:20 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: New guy with repair questions From: "Chris_A" <50calibercruiser@cox.net> Here is my boom support. When I loaded the firestar the pipe insulation was still intact. The way I secured it was: wrap a towel around the tube then with the tube in the straddle I would wrap a ratcheting strap around the tube and straddle and tighten it up to the point that the foam would start to compress slightly. Then ratchet the base of the straddle to the floor of the trailer. The break occurred immediately after the rear straddle arm. It's pretty clear the tube was bouncing enough to chew through the towel and foam. But the straps were not loose at all. Thanks for the input, Chris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302162#302162 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/sdc11758_215.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/sdc11761_102.jpg ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:45 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions From: "Chris_A" <50calibercruiser@cox.net> I did toy with the idea of repairing it and my thought was to take a piece of 5" O.D. .125 wall 6061 T6, and make a "coupler" out of it by turning the ends down .052 so they would slide into either end of the cut tube and leave the center of the coupler untouched so that when everything was slid together the O.D. would be flush. Then rivet the ends. But I've already got the new one paid for. 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