---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 07/21/10: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:24 AM - Re: New Camera test (lhaggerty) 2. 02:53 AM - Re: Kolb FS II wing mods/adding droop tips (icrashrc) 3. 05:09 AM - Re: Rib Stitching (Eugene Zimmerman) 4. 05:29 AM - Re: New Camera test (John Bickham) 5. 05:59 AM - Re: Rib Stitching (robert bean) 6. 07:35 AM - Re: Rib Stitching (John Hauck) 7. 08:17 AM - Re: Pitot-static system (Kirby, Dennis Civ USAF AFMC AFNWC/EN) 8. 08:34 AM - Hydraulic Leg Press (Jmmy Hankinson) 9. 09:40 AM - Re: Rib Stitching (Richard Pike) 10. 09:42 AM - portable hydraulic press (Jmmy Hankinson) 11. 09:53 AM - Re: Rib Stitching (william sullivan) 12. 09:57 AM - Re: Pitot-static system (lhaggerty) 13. 01:41 PM - FW: portable hydraulic press (Jmmy Hankinson) 14. 03:01 PM - Test (Jmmy Hankinson) 15. 03:08 PM - Re: Test (william sullivan) 16. 03:44 PM - Re: Test (russ kinne) 17. 05:26 PM - Re: Pitot-static system (Tom Longo) 18. 05:37 PM - Re: Test (Jack Carillon) 19. 06:50 PM - Installing new Landing gear legs on MKIIIC (Steve Simmons) 20. 06:59 PM - Re: Re: Rib Stitching (Eugene Zimmerman) 21. 08:44 PM - Re: Re: Rib Stitching (John Hauck) 22. 09:23 PM - Re: Re: Rib Stitching (WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:24:22 AM PST US From: "lhaggerty" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: New Camera test Yes I see the disadvantages, thanks Pete ----- Original Message Actually I have done just that and it is surprising how fast and often your heard snaps around when you are flying, especially close to the ground. The brain makes it seem smooth, but watching it can give you whiplash, plus the lexan even though it is clear, does not do anything to improve the quality. I personally prefer to have a clear and unfettered view ahead of ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:53:00 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb FS II wing mods/adding droop tips From: "icrashrc" http://www.ill-eagleaviation.com/AileronMassBalance.htm I'll have to post some new pictures now that the wings and surfaces are complete. -------- Scott www.ill-EagleAviation.com do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=305711#305711 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:09:33 AM PST US From: Eugene Zimmerman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Rib Stitching Bob, But is it actually stronger? The stitch would surely tear/wear through the fabric before a rivet would pull through the reinforcing tape and fabric? Gene On Jul 20, 2010, at 10:57 PM, robert bean wrote: > Very well done Richard. The advantages are: doesn't weaken the rib > as much as drilling and riveting > and if you need to recover you don't have to drill 'em out. > -besides, it looks neat. > BB ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:29:32 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: New Camera test From: "John Bickham" Heck Larry, I don't have rocks growing out of my runway! Those trees provide a gentle cushion that gives you just enough time to wonder if it is over before you plummet straight down 80 feet. The camera looks good. I looked at some of your previous vids on YouTube and I see a definite improvement in quality. I just wish I had time to fly AND produce videos. Take care. -------- Thanks too much, John Bickham Mark III-C w/ 912UL St. Francisville, LA I know many pilots and a few true aviators. There is a distinct difference that I have the greatest respect for. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=305726#305726 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:59:15 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Rib Stitching From: robert bean In a certified aircraft you lay(glue) reinforcing tape on before the rib stitching. I would do a Kolb the same way. My Aeronca used little stainless screws into aluminum ribs, also through reinforcing tape. I got in a lovely 8:00 PM flight last night. 77F and calm. Wonderfully tranquil and smooth. Don't get many of those. BB On 21, Jul 2010, at 8:09 AM, Eugene Zimmerman wrote: > > Bob, > But is it actually stronger? > The stitch would surely tear/wear through the fabric before a rivet would pull through the reinforcing tape and fabric? > > Gene > > > On Jul 20, 2010, at 10:57 PM, robert bean wrote: > >> Very well done Richard. The advantages are: doesn't weaken the rib as much as drilling and riveting >> and if you need to recover you don't have to drill 'em out. >> -besides, it looks neat. >> BB > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:35:28 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Rib Stitching > But is it actually stronger? > The stitch would surely tear/wear through the fabric before a rivet would > pull through the reinforcing tape and fabric? > > Gene Rib stitching was used for flat wooden rib strips which gave the stitch more area and a flat surface to attach the fabric. Normally, sheet metal ribs use clips or screws. Fabric rivets work well with tubing, especially small, 5/16" tubing. Rib stitching does not grip small diameter, smooth tubing as well as it does flat wooden strips. Tube ribs, 5/16", have a very small apex that makes contact with the fabric. I noticed Richard P made his stits as wide as the reinforcing tape. Seems to me this would pull a pucker in the fabric as the knot was tightened. I could not tell from the vid clip. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:17:55 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Pitot-static system From: "Kirby, Dennis Civ USAF AFMC AFNWC/EN" mark rinehart wrote: << I'm installing my ASI and Altimeter for my Mark IIIC. I'll install a pitot tube under the nose for total pressure, but am thinking I will not have a separate static port but just leave the instruments open to the cockpit for static pressure. >> Mark - As others have mentioned, air pressure variations in a semi-open cockpit can be extreme, resulting in drastic inaccuracies in you're A/S indicator if you leave the static port open on the back of your instrument. On my Kolb, the pitot is on the tip of the nosecone, and I use a static port on the left side of the nosecone. The static port face does not have to be at exactly 90 degrees to the airflow to be accurate - anywhere within 15 degrees is OK. As you know, the sides of our Kolb nosecones are slightly tapered, but not enough to matter for making it a suitable location of a static port. My indicated airspeeds are right on the money, using the static port in this way. Got the static port from A/C Spruce, for under $12 if I recall. Very short plumbing run from the nosecone side to the back of your instrument panel. A nice, clean installation. By the way - if you decide to put the pitot on the nose, have the rigid alum tube stick out only about an inch. The remaining forward six inches of aluminum tube can be connected to the one-inch stub with a short piece rubber (or vinyl) hose. That way it won't break off when someone brushes against it with their leg. When, not if. Good luck with your installation - Dennis Kirby Mark-3C, 912ul, in Sandia Park, NM ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:34:25 AM PST US From: "Jmmy Hankinson" Subject: Kolb-List: Hydraulic Leg Press This is a portable hydraulic press that I designed to straighten the legs of my Firefly when I perform a not to good landing, does not happen too often now. The unit can be used OFF the Firefly or attached to the leg without removing the wheel and associated parts. Parts used. 5 inch wide channel iron 15 inches long 4 ton hydraulic jack, (Harbor Freight) 2 I/8 x 1 inch flat iron 17 inches long 2 1/8 x 1 inch flat iron 8 inches long (brace) Heavy duty chain (1) 7 inches, (1) 8 inches) 2 3/8 inch Chain connectors One jack adapter Made on lathe One 1 inch conduit bending tool head 3/8 bolts only. =BC inch WILL brake 1 jack handle 22 inches long to fit jack (4130). Jimmy Hankinson Firefly N6007L Rocky Ford, Georgia ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:40:49 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Rib Stitching From: "Richard Pike" Wow, good responses, thanks guys! To reply to Eugene's question, if you did not use reinforcing tape, the cord would cut through the fabric so quickly you would not even be able to do it, so whether you are using cord or rivets, you have to use reinforcing tape below the cord or rivet in either case. Then whether you are using a rivet or a cord passing over it, one is going to be as strong as another. The cord method has a long history of not failing, and at the speeds we fly, it is surely not an issue. In reply to John's comment that rib stitching does not grip small diameter, smooth tubing as well as it does flat wooden strips, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. If you have a length of reinforcing tape laying along the top of the rib, and a cord wraps around that rib, then the cord is pulling on the tape across the full width of the tape. A rivet flat across the top of the tape is touching more of the tape, but less of the rib, except that is not an issue, because of the mechanical assistance of the finishing tape over the whole bit, which is what is actually holding everything together. As far as 5/16" tube ribs having a very small apex that makes contact with the fabric, that is the case whether you are using rivets or cord. The fabric is held securely by the finishing tape that you lay over the top of the whole business after your mechanical attachment is complete. If you did not put the finishing tape over everything else, I doubt that either method would be very secure. Also, you do not get a pucker in the fabric if you use the right size reinforcing tape. I used Stits 1/4" wide reinforcing tape, and when the cord is tightened, it pulls down perfectly with no pucker. If you used wider reinforcing tape, then obviously you would have a mess. We had to use rivets at the tip rib, since the reinforcing angle right next to the rib precluded rib stitching, also we riveted a couple places above and below the main spar since there is no way to get a needle around it, and it wasn't worth the trouble to get fancy and make a custom needle. Here are pictures comparing two adjacent ribs, one the riveted tip rib, and one stitched, the finishing tape has not yet been ironed. Stitching the full ribs is fairly time effective, because you are effectively doing two rivets with one full stitch, doing false ribs is certainly not. Rivets would have to be quicker, except I hate drilling all those holes in my ribs, and invariably I screw a couple up, and I hate that. To each his/her own, all this is for is to shed a little light on the process for those who might want to try the alternative. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=305771#305771 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/rivits_202.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/cord_102.jpg ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:42:32 AM PST US From: "Jmmy Hankinson" Subject: Kolb-List: portable hydraulic press This is a portable hydraulic press that I designed to straighten the legs of my Firefly. The unit can be used OFF the Firefly or attached to the leg without removing the wheel and associated parts. Parts used. 5 inch wide channel iron 15 inches long 4 ton hydraulic jack, (Harbor Freight) 2 I/8 x 1 inch flat iron 17 inches long 2 1/8 x 1 inch flat iron 8 inches long (brace) Heavy duty chain (1) 7 inches, (1) 8 inches) 2 3/8 inch Chain connectors One jack adapter Made on lathe One 1 inch conduit bending tool head 3/8 bolts only. =BC inch WILL brake 1 jack handle 22 inches long to fit jack (4130), also serves as a carrying handle Jimmy Hankinson Firefly N6007L Rocky Ford, Georgia ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:53:30 AM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Rib Stitching - My two cents worth. I had two sets of wings for the Firestar, one origi nal set that was damaged in a storm rollover, and the other set was damaged when I crashed it.- One set was rib stitched, and the other was riveted. - Even though both of them had extensive structural damage, neither one h ad any sign of attachment failure.- When I rebuilt the wings, I used rive ts because of extensive experience and familiarity with them.- If I do an other set, ecpecially a very lightweight set, I probably will use stitching twine to cross brace the ribs.- That way there will be less warping when the fabric is tightened.- - ------------------------- --------------------- Bill Sulliv an ------------------------- --------------------- Windsor Loc ks, Ct. ------------------------- --------------------- 5 rib FS 44 7 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:57:15 AM PST US From: "lhaggerty" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Pitot-static system Which L shaped unit did you use. Pete ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Longo To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 1:29 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Pitot-static system My MKIII read 10 mph too high with my static vented inside cockpit (Low pressure) in my case. I ordered pitot/static combo (L shaped unit) from Aircraft Spruce that was inexpensive and Airspeed was correct. -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dana Hague Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 12:30 PM To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Pitot-static system At 12:12 PM 7/20/2010, mark rinehart wrote: I'm installing my ASI and Altimeter for my Mark IIIC. I'll install a pitot tube under the nose for total pressure, but am thinking I will not have a separate static port but just leave the instruments open to the cockpit for static pressure. Anyone have experience with that? I'm assuming that since the cockpit isn't sealed, the static pressure inside is fairly close to outside ambient. Don't assume that. Depending on the shape of the cockpit fairing and openings, the pressure inside can be considerably higher or lower than the static pressure... and it can change as AOA changes. Still, many do that and sometimes it works fine. I don't have a cockpit on my UltraStar, just an instrument pod between my legs, and it was vented there. Every time I moved my foot the indicated airspeed changed. I've since made a concentric tube pitot tube, with four holes in the outer tube for static air. Works great. -Dana -- Exceeding the legal fun limit on a regular basis href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- SPAMfighter has href="http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen">slow PC? Try free scan! ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:41:23 PM PST US From: "Jmmy Hankinson" Subject: Kolb-List: FW: portable hydraulic press This is a portable hydraulic press that I designed to straighten the legs of my Firefly. The unit can be used OFF the Firefly or attached to the leg without removing the wheel and associated parts. Parts used. 5 inch wide channel iron 15 inches long 4 ton hydraulic jack, (Harbor Freight) 2 I/8 x 1 inch flat iron 17 inches long 2 1/8 x 1 inch flat iron 8 inches long (brace) Heavy duty chain (1) 7 inches, (1) 8 inches) 2 3/8 inch Chain connectors One jack adapter Made on lathe One 1 inch conduit bending tool head 3/8 bolts only. =BC inch WILL brake 1 jack handle 22 inches long to fit jack (4130), also serves as a carrying handle Jimmy Hankinson Firefly N6007L Rocky Ford, Georgia ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:01:09 PM PST US From: "Jmmy Hankinson" Subject: Kolb-List: Test Just checking if I am still on the list. Sent two post today and have not seen then on my internet. One was too large and was returned. Removed 4 pictures and sent only three the nest time. If anyone has seen them, let me know. Jimmy Hankinson Firefly N6007L Sylvania, Georgia ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:08:06 PM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Test - Jimmy- Saw all of them, and thought you were repeating yourself.- May be check your spam file?- - - do not archive - ------------------------- --------------- Bill Sullivan ------------------------- --------------- Windsor Locks, Ct. ------------------------- --------------- FS 447 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:44:58 PM PST US From: russ kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Test Jimmy Both pix came thru fine here, in CT on a Mac. Nice job on the press Russ do not archive On Jul 21, 2010, at 5:59 PM, Jmmy Hankinson wrote: > Just checking if I am still on the list. Sent two post today and > have not seen then on my internet. One was too large and was > returned. Removed 4 pictures and sent only three the nest time. > > > If anyone has seen them, let me know. > > > Jimmy Hankinson > > Firefly N6007L > > Sylvania, Georgia > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:26:07 PM PST US From: "Tom Longo" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Pitot-static system I used Aircraft Spruce part # 15144 $25 -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of lhaggerty Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 12:56 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Pitot-static system Which L shaped unit did you use. Pete ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Longo Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 1:29 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Pitot-static system My MKIII read 10 mph too high with my static vented inside cockpit (Low pressure) in my case. I ordered pitot/static combo (L shaped unit) from Aircraft Spruce that was inexpensive and Airspeed was correct. -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dana Hague Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 12:30 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Pitot-static system At 12:12 PM 7/20/2010, mark rinehart wrote: I'm installing my ASI and Altimeter for my Mark IIIC. I'll install a pitot tube under the nose for total pressure, but am thinking I will not have a separate static port but just leave the instruments open to the cockpit for static pressure. Anyone have experience with that? I'm assuming that since the cockpit isn't sealed, the static pressure inside is fairly close to outside ambient. Don't assume that. Depending on the shape of the cockpit fairing and openings, the pressure inside can be considerably higher or lower than the static pressure... and it can change as AOA changes. Still, many do that and sometimes it works fine. I don't have a cockpit on my UltraStar, just an instrument pod between my legs, and it was vented there. Every time I moved my foot the indicated airspeed changed. I've since made a concentric tube pitot tube, with four holes in the outer tube for static air. Works great. -Dana -- Exceeding the legal fun limit on a regular basis href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c _____ .. SPAMfighter has href="http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen">slow PC? Try free scan! href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:37:04 PM PST US From: Jack Carillon Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Test russ kinne wrote: > Jimmy > Both pix came thru fine here, in CT on a Mac. > Nice job on the press > Russ > do not archive > > On Jul 21, 2010, at 5:59 PM, Jmmy Hankinson wrote: > >> *Just checking if I am still on the list. Sent two post today and >> have not seen then on my internet. One was too large and was >> returned. Removed 4 pictures and sent only three the nest time.* >> >> * * >> >> *If anyone has seen them, let me know.* >> >> * * >> >> *Jimmy Hankinson* >> >> *Firefly N6007L* >> >> *Sylvania, Georgia* >> >> * >> >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> * > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Jimmy, got 5 pixs here in Akron, Ohio at 11:28 this morning. Nice setup to straighten legs on the plane. Thanks for posting it. Jack Carillon Firestar II Akron Oh. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:50:57 PM PST US From: "Steve Simmons" Subject: Kolb-List: Installing new Landing gear legs on MKIIIC I have just received from Travis a set of new aluminum landing gear legs, to replace the old bent steel legs. Can anyone give me the proper dimension to push the new legs into the cage socket before marking them to drill the bolt hole? Thanks in advance Steve Simmons ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:59:38 PM PST US From: Eugene Zimmerman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rib Stitching Richard, Thanks for that clarification. In the video I missed seeing the reinforcing tape as you were doing the stitching. Either your workmanship is exceptional, or my eyes are not. Apparently it is the former. My confidence in you as a Kolb builder is restored. Gene Z On Jul 21, 2010, at 12:39 PM, Richard Pike wrote: > Wow, good responses, thanks guys! > To reply to Eugene's question, if you did not use reinforcing tape, > the cord would cut through the fabric so quickly you would not even > be able to do it, so whether you are using cord or rivets, you have > to use reinforcing tape below the cord or rivet in either case. Then > whether you are using a rivet or a cord passing over it, one is > going to be as strong as another. The cord method has a long history > of not failing, and at the speeds we fly, it is surely not an issue ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:26 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rib Stitching Then >> whether you are using a rivet or a cord passing over it, one is going to >> be as strong as another. Maybe if both systems are using the same width reinforcing tape. However, I believe 1/4" reinforcing tape will not be as strong as 1/2". >>The cord method has a long history of not failing, and at the speeds we >>fly, it is surely not an issue Even at the speeds Kolbs fly, there are documented rib stitch failures. Yes, rib stitching has a long history, but I personally know of two Kolb aircraft that suffered failure of rib stitches on top of the inboard ribs, probably caused by prop drumming, or improper rib stitch technique. One may use whatever method they desire, but I will stick to fabric rivets on my Kolb. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:23:26 PM PST US From: WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rib Stitching In a message dated 7/21/2010 12:41:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, richard@bcchapel.org writes: Here are pictures comparing two adjacent ribs, one the riveted tip rib, and one stitched, the finishing tape has not yet been ironed. Richard, I noticed that the first picture showed pinked edges on the finishing tape, while the second picture showed straight edged tape. Are these on the same plane/wing? Bill Varnes Original Kolb FireStar Audubon NJ Do Not Archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.