---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 08/17/10: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:33 AM - Re: Re: Yet another covering option (Richard Girard) 2. 10:01 AM - Re: Re: Yet another covering option (jerb) 3. 10:14 AM - Re: Re: Yet another covering option (jerb) 4. 03:58 PM - 2-stroke muffler weak area (Richard Pike) 5. 04:23 PM - Re: 2-stroke muffler weak area (william sullivan) 6. 04:48 PM - Re: 2-stroke muffler weak area (John Hauck) 7. 04:48 PM - Re: Re: 2-stroke muffler weak area (John Hauck) 8. 05:03 PM - Re: 2-stroke muffler weak area (william sullivan) 9. 05:09 PM - Re: 2-stroke muffler weak area (Dennis Souder) 10. 06:18 PM - Re: 2-stroke muffler weak area (Richard Pike) 11. 09:09 PM - using the Stewarts system (GARY JINDRA) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:33:37 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Yet another covering option From: Richard Girard George, I, too, looked at the Stewart System after watching their excellent series of videos about their covering process. Their prices are truly top drawer. According to the spreadsheets I've kept they run about 35 to 40% more than Polyfiber. Using the Appendix A options and accepting a silver or blue airplane to skip the Poly Spray step (three Polytone top coats have the silver in them) and using HVLP spray methods to extend the coverage (the A & P I work with says all coverage number are based on high pressure spray guns that lose a lot to overspray) and you should be able to do your Firestar complete for about $1200 for all chemicals, generic polyester medium weight cloth, tapes, cloth rivets, drain grommets, and inspection rings and covers. If you elect to do a complete alodine of the aluminum parts and seal them with epoxy before covering to prevent corrosion, add another $150. Rick On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 1:23 AM, GeoB wrote: > > Thanks for the interesting ideas. > > > So if you are thinking you might sell your airplane any time soon, I > wouldn't use latex > > I agree with the last few msgs in this thread. Your analysis seems right > on, to me. > > Several reasons coalesce in generating my level of interest in this > process. > 1) I am so tight I squeak when I walk > 2) I like to have things done well and right, and safely. > 3) Materials are expensive and I have never covered a plane before. I > wouldn't want to mess up a buncha expensive material. > 4) seems to me that after we complete the gluing and shrinking of fabric, > we are not really talking about becoming a lawn dart; we are talking about > how LONG the fabric will be good. Folks talk about 25 years and such- my > current covering is 24 years old and I think it is the original from Kolb. I > don't have anywhere near that long. I doubt I have ten good years left. I > haven't priced out the Stits process completely. I did chat with the Stuart > Systems ppl. They quoted me an estimate of $2000. I don't have infinite > money to sling around though I have enough to do a good job. I don't really > care what happens to my plane after I'm gone. It looks like I can put a good > quality covering on there for MUCH less than $2000. I'll go have fun flying > around with the saved money. > > But I have NOT made a decision yet as I have several more systems to check > out. > > GeoB > > -------- > GeoB > > "Members of Congress should be compelled to wear uniforms like NASCAR > drivers, so we could identify their corporate sponsors" > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=309073#309073 > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:01:35 AM PST US From: jerb Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Yet another covering option What we need is a couple of you chaps to check out the water based covering systems. Get a test kit and cover a wooden frame. Evaluate how it compares to using Stitts. Some of these systems use a lot of "tanes", and are really bad for you if you breath it, thus suggesting use of a forced air mask breathing system. Super Flite system I believe uses a lot of "tanes". Isn't that the system used on Challengers?. My hangar partners N3-Pup used a system called Blue something which I understood was a water based system. jerb At 03:31 AM 8/17/2010, you wrote: >George, I, too, looked at the Stewart System after watching their >excellent series of videos about their covering process. Their >prices are truly top drawer. According to the spreadsheets I've kept >they run about 35 to 40% more than Polyfiber. Using the Appendix A >options and accepting a silver or blue airplane to skip the Poly >Spray step (three Polytone top coats have the silver in them) and >using HVLP spray methods to extend the coverage (the A & P I work >with says all coverage number are based on high pressure spray guns >that lose a lot to overspray) and you should be able to do your >Firestar complete for about $1200 for all chemicals, generic >polyester medium weight cloth, tapes, cloth rivets, drain grommets, >and inspection rings and covers. If you elect to do a complete >alodine of the aluminum parts and seal them with epoxy before >covering to prevent corrosion, add another $150. > >Rick > >On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 1:23 AM, GeoB ><gab16@sbcglobal.net> wrote: ><gab16@sbcglobal.net> > >Thanks for the interesting ideas. > > > So if you are thinking you might sell your airplane any time > soon, I wouldn't use latex > >I agree with the last few msgs in this thread. Your analysis seems >right on, to me. > >Several reasons coalesce in generating my level of interest in this process. >1) I am so tight I squeak when I walk >2) I like to have things done well and right, and safely. >3) Materials are expensive and I have never covered a plane before. >I wouldn't want to mess up a buncha expensive material. >4) seems to me that after we complete the gluing and shrinking of >fabric, we are not really talking about becoming a lawn dart; we are >talking about how LONG the fabric will be good. Folks talk about 25 >years and such- my current covering is 24 years old and I think it >is the original from Kolb. I don't have anywhere near that long. I >doubt I have ten good years left. I haven't priced out the Stits >process completely. I did chat with the Stuart Systems ppl. They >quoted me an estimate of $2000. I don't have infinite money to sling >around though I have enough to do a good job. I don't really care >what happens to my plane after I'm gone. It looks like I can put a >good quality covering on there for MUCH less than $2000. I'll go >have fun flying around with the saved money. > >But I have NOT made a decision yet as I have several more systems to >check out. > >GeoB > >-------- >GeoB > >"Members of Congress should be compelled to wear uniforms like >NASCAR drivers, so we could identify their corporate sponsors" > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=309073#309073 > > >========== >arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List >========== >http://forums.matronics.com >========== >le, List Admin. >="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >========== > > >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List >http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:14:21 AM PST US From: jerb Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Yet another covering option I just done a search on Google for aircraft covering systems. It brought up a number of systems. Also made another search for water based aircraft covering systems. Stewart Systems is one that pops up. See below. Note their explanation of water-based versus waterborne. Has anyone used or seen the results of this system. I dislike all the chemical exposure with Stitts and others. Stewart Systems Aircraft Fabric Covering is safe for everyone ... Our new, breakthrough coatings are not "water-based"-- they're waterborne ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:58:27 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: 2-stroke muffler weak area From: "Richard Pike" Several years ago when I still had the 532 on my MKIII, I was on the way home one afternoon when suddenly the exhaust became incredibly louder. My wife heard the noise when I was still a couple miles away. Got home and discovered that one side or half of the curved expansion section had blown loose. It had failed so badly that the only thing still unbroken was the area next to the inlet cone. Welded it back and mentioned it to a friend, and as it turns out, the same thing had happened to him, it was the 503 on his Drifter. Today a friend flying a CGS Hawk dropped by and mentioned that his exhaust had been louder for the last couple flights, and he asked me to look at it. His was in the process of splitting, so we hauled out the welding tanks and welded it up while it was sitting out on the air strip. After I got done, it occurred to me that maybe this is info that needs to passed along, so here are some pics. Would have been better if I had thought of the camera first, but our priority was getting him home safely. I guess this is not specifically Kolb related, and this is only the third one I have seen in over ten years, but since a lot of us use this sort of muffler, I thought it worth passing on, maybe it ought to be a preflight item? Not the prettiest welding job I ever did, but when you are standing on a stool, on your tip toes leaning over the top of the muffler and sweating like a hog - I don't care. You can see where the split was - right up the stamped seam, and then where the expansion section ties into the can, it had split for a couple inches in both directions across the top. Welding that was pretty cobby, real thin stuff next to a thick section that was factory welded. Not even sure if I got all of it, but where I was standing, I couldn't even see it all. But it got him home safe, and he can always bring it back tomorrow in the trunk of his car if I missed a spot. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=309185#309185 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1170607_large_210.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1170591_large_132.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1170577_large_137.jpg ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:23:43 PM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Re: 2-stroke muffler weak area - Richard- What kind of filler rod did you use on this?- I also see a r einforcing strap going from the muffler to the inlet pipe.- Was this a fa ctory option at one time?- Mine is all salt rotted and stress cracked.- -I welded some of the cracks with a flux core MIG, but I also have a torc h, just no steel filler rod.- Your welding looks pretty good from here. - ------------------------- ----------------------- Bill Sullivan ------------------------- ----------------------- Winds or Locks, Ct. ------------------------- ----------------------- FS 44 7 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:48:20 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 2-stroke muffler weak area Today a friend flying a CGS Hawk dropped by and mentioned that his exhaust had been louder for the last couple flights, and he asked me to look at it. His was in the process of splitting, so we hauled out the welding tanks and welded it up while it was sitting out on the air strip. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Richard P/Gang: My first impression of the Rotax silencer was the amount of material that has been lost over the years this system has been in service. Not a whole lot of steel left in that old can. Disentegration of Rotax mufflers is pretty common, especially if the operator puts a lot of hours on them. The system is operating on exhaust pulses. I believe it is those pulses that are working the can and causing the failures. john h - Who experienced a loub noise from my 447 about 10 miles west of Quincy, Florida, more than 20 years ago. My Rotax muffler was coming apart in the neck. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:48:24 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: 2-stroke muffler weak area Richard- What kind of filler rod did you use on this? Bill Sullivan Windsor Locks, Ct. FS 447 Bill S/Gang: Coat hangers work well when there is nothing else available. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:03:56 PM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Re: 2-stroke muffler weak area - Thanks, John.- I have used coat hangers on sheet metal before.- I l ike gas welding over MIG on the old stuff- less cracking after.- I have a lso used annealed mechanic's wire. - My muffler will have to be replaced in a while- too much salt pitting f rom when it was on Long Island. - ------------------------- ------------------------ Bi ll Sullivan ------------------------- ------------------------ Wi ndsor Locks, Ct. ------------------------- ------------------------- FS 447 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:09:55 PM PST US From: "Dennis Souder" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: 2-stroke muffler weak area The earlier engines did not have a separate 90 degree elbow - these had a one piece manifold/elbow - these would break. Later on came the separate elbow which gave an additional degree of freedom for the muffler system. I couldn't quite tell from the photos which type this was. Dennis -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Pike Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 6:58 PM Subject: Kolb-List: 2-stroke muffler weak area Several years ago when I still had the 532 on my MKIII, I was on the way home one afternoon when suddenly the exhaust became incredibly louder. My wife heard the noise when I was still a couple miles away. Got home and discovered that one side or half of the curved expansion section had blown loose. It had failed so badly that the only thing still unbroken was the area next to the inlet cone. Welded it back and mentioned it to a friend, and as it turns out, the same thing had happened to him, it was the 503 on his Drifter. Today a friend flying a CGS Hawk dropped by and mentioned that his exhaust had been louder for the last couple flights, and he asked me to look at it. His was in the process of splitting, so we hauled out the welding tanks and welded it up while it was sitting out on the air strip. After I got done, it occurred to me that maybe this is info that needs to passed along, so here are some pics. Would have been better if I had thought of the camera first, but our priority was getting him home safely. I guess this is not specifically Kolb related, and this is only the third one I have seen in over ten years, but since a lot of us use this sort of muffler, I thought it worth passing on, maybe it ought to be a preflight item? Not the prettiest welding job I ever did, but when you are standing on a stool, on your tip toes leaning over the top of the muffler and sweating like a hog - I don't care. You can see where the split was - right up the stamped seam, and then where the expansion section ties into the can, it had split for a couple inches in both directions across the top. Welding that was pretty cobby, real thin stuff next to a thick section that was factory welded. Not even sure if I got all of it, but where I was standing, I couldn't even see it all. But it got him home safe, and he can always bring it back tomorrow in the trunk of his car if I missed a spot. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=309185#309185 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1170607_large_210.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1170591_large_132.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1170577_large_137.jpg ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:18:26 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: 2-stroke muffler weak area From: "Richard Pike" Wow! several questions - It was mild steel 1/16" welding rod. I saw that reinforcing strap also, the current owner is not the builder, so...? John - roger that on the pulses taking it apart, that is one of the reasons I went to the Quicksliver style exhaust on my current MKIII installation, it just looked less stressed. The curlyque style is also semi-cantilever mounted off the side, so I am thinking that the Quicksilver type down along the engine axis, ought to have less stress. I added a picture of it. However the one on the Hawk was partly operator error in addition to the exhaust being old, he was doing a mag check a few days ago and inadvertently turned everything off, then promptly turned it back on, it made a loud backfire, and immediately the exhaust was notably louder. (Dude! You blew it up!) Dennis, I looked at the other pics I took, it doesn't show in any of them but I am pretty sure it is the 3 part setup, I remember seeing six springs total so it would have to have had the separate elbow. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=309209#309209 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/582c_552.jpg ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:54 PM PST US From: GARY JINDRA Subject: Kolb-List: using the Stewarts system I am using Stewarts water bourne system to cover my mark 111c .I bought a K olb- kit that had been started and the fellow quit on it.Stewarts is faa approved and has no toxic fumes,also been around awhile.Glues will stay tac ky and the cloth easy to work with and moved around till glue is recoated o ver seams or joints.Moved the plane into our house after New Years to do th e covering.Double doors on front of house.Attached is a couple pics.Also di d uv protection in the livingroom.Cost may be little higher but no toxic fu mes to inhale or handle.The furnace never had to be turned off.No fumes!- Gary Jindra Mark 111c 582 E-box building---------------------- ------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.