---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 09/16/10: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:51 AM - That pesky ELSA re-registration problem (Richard Girard) 2. 10:36 AM - Annual Condition Inspection checklist for Kolbra (Ralph B) 3. 11:24 AM - Re: Annual Condition Inspection checklist for Kolbra (Ralph B) 4. 11:52 AM - Scott Thompson's accident (Mike Welch) 5. 02:04 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Mike Welch) 6. 02:20 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (PCKing) 7. 02:41 PM - my email address (Mike Welch) 8. 04:51 PM - Here's what I have gathered; (Mike Welch) 9. 05:36 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (ces308) 10. 05:42 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (Ralph B) 11. 07:25 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (PCKing) 12. 07:47 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (John Hauck) 13. 07:56 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (Mike Welch) 14. 08:03 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Daniel Myers) 15. 08:09 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Mike Welch) 16. 09:27 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (Richard Girard) 17. 09:39 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Daniel Myers) 18. 10:01 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Mike Welch) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:51:16 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: That pesky ELSA re-registration problem From: Richard Girard After much thought about how to make it legal to re-register an ELSA that the owner has allowed the registration to expire under the terms of the new rule I sent the following to the applicable FAA personnel this morning. "Dear Sirs, There is a problem with the new rule for triennial re-registration of aircraft when it is applied to experimental light sport aircraft (ELSA) that were registered under the provisions of FAR 21.191 i(1). If an owner of an ELSA fails to re-register during the applicable period and the registration expires there is no legal means to register the aircraft again. FAR 21.191 i(1) expired on January 3, 2008. Form 8050-88A (Affidavit of Ownership) that is required to be filed along with 8050-1 to register an ELSA has been revised so that the only two options for registering an ELSA are through FAR 21.191 i(2) (aircraft built from a kit of a qualifying special light sport aircraft (SLSA)) and FAR 21.190 (essentially for manufacturers who need to register a prototype to do compliance testing of an SLSA). I believe there is a simple way to fix this problem. Revise form 8050-88A to include an option to the effect, "this aircraft was previously registered as N_______ under the provisions of FAR 21.191 i(1) and the paperwork is on file with the FAA". I believe wording like this or similar would allow an errant owner to re-register the aircraft following expiration with a minimum of problems and prevent those who might try to use the provision to register an aircraft that had not previously been registered. Thank you for your time." I did this after spending a good portion of yesterday morning talking and writing to various officials in the FAA about the problem. It occurred to me late last night that the easiest way to get something fixed when there is a problem is to present a solution to those who can remedy it. What the heck, it's worth a try. Rick Girard -- Zulu Delta Kolb Mk IIIC 582 Gray head 4.00 C gearbox 3 blade WD Thanks, Homer GBYM It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong. - G.K. Chesterton ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:36:54 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Annual Condition Inspection checklist for Kolbra From: "Ralph B" Travis Brown from Kolb asked it I would post the Annual Condition inspection checklist for the Kolbra. This checklist will work for other Kolbs too. Ralph B -------- Ralph B Original Firestar 447 N91493 E-AB 1000 hours 23 years flying it Kolbra 912UL N20386 2 years flying it 120 hrs Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312658#312658 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/annual_inspection_checklist_179.doc ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:24:48 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Annual Condition Inspection checklist for Kolbra From: "Ralph B" After the inspection is finished, post these words in the aircraft logbook: date I certify this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with the scope and detail of appendix D to Part 43 and found to be in a condition for safe operation. Flight time: XXX.X hours name of inspector cert #xxxxxxxx -------- Ralph B Original Firestar 447 N91493 E-AB 1000 hours 23 years flying it Kolbra 912UL N20386 2 years flying it 120 hrs Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312666#312666 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:52:12 AM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident Kolb guys=2C I have tried to find out exactly what happened to cause Scott's fatal cra sh. Why? Because it matters a HELL of a lot to me!! At first=2C I thought I'd share what I've found with the entire list=2C then=2C I thought someone may gripe abou t it. So=2C if anyone wants to know some of the details about what happened=2C including what Scott and I discussed a few days prior to his maiden flight=2C email m e off the Kolb list=2C and I will share with you what I have found out. Mike Welch ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:04:08 PM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident List members=2C I've had a few guys check in=2C but I'm waiting a little while for a few more before we get the conversation going. The primary reason is for the 'off-list' discussion is I can picture someone asking me "who the hell do you think you are.....?" Me? Nobody. Just a friend of Scott's that would like to figure out what happened=2C that's all. I sick and damn tired of hearing about my Kolb buddies dieing. I'd like to find out why they died...and do my best not to repeat their 'mistakes'=2C without trying to pass judgement on them. Mike Welch ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:20:48 PM PST US From: "PCKing" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident Mike, You may not have received many offline requests because everyone on the list doesn't have your email address. I met Scott at AirVenture this year. We spoke about where to source aileron and flap control seals. I was sad to hear that he'd passed away test flying something he was so proud of. I'd like to know what happened. Peter C. King pc.king@comcast.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Welch To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 5:00 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident List members, I've had a few guys check in, but I'm waiting a little while for a few more before we get the conversation going. The primary reason is for the 'off-list' discussion is I can picture someone asking me "who the hell do you think you are.....?" Me? Nobody. Just a friend of Scott's that would like to figure out what happened, that's all. I sick and damn tired of hearing about my Kolb buddies dieing. I'd like to find out why they died...and do my best not to repeat their 'mistakes', without trying to pass judgement on them. Mike Welch ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:41:30 PM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: Kolb-List: my email address My email address is=3B mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com (don't forget the '7'!!!) Mike Welch ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:51:45 PM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered; List members=2C I have had many members ask me to bring this subject matte r out in the open. Plus=2C there are way too many people now=2C for me to reply to. (a pproaching 30+) Here is what I have this far!! My initial thought was to discuss Scott's accident openly with this list =2C but then I thought I'd be criticized by someone for acting like an investigator. Well=2C I'm NOT an investigator=2C but I certainly am curious about the facts that caused Scott's death=2C esp ecially since I do not want to duplicate them. Then=2C I thought maybe the subject would be best discussed privately bet ween those only who show an interest. Last count=2C I've had about 14 responders=2C so may be we should just bring this out in the open. (I had the same concern regarding John Ratcliffe's accident a few months ago. Yet=2C I didn't say anything=2C and John was soon forgotten=2C it appears. I did some chec king on his situation=2C and it seems he must have stalled near turning base to final=2C and nosed i t in.) With regard to Scott=2C here is what I have found out. This is by NO me ans any kind of official report=2C nor do I profess to have all the answers. Additionally=2C I acce pt any and all new information that may correct anything that I may misstate. A few days before Scott made his intitial flight=2C I asked him where he had his main wing's and his h. stabilizers set at (since the Oshkosh photos made the h.s. look like they were too high) His answer to me was " the main wing is set at where Bryan (@ Kolb Aircraft ) told him to set them." He went on to say "the h. stabilizers are set like the factory recommends =2C but after he's flown for awhile=2C he can adjust that setting later. (I wish!!) So=2C at this point=2C as far as I know=2C he had the wing incidences and hor. stabilizers incidences set according to the factory recommended locations! Next=2C when I read one of the news reports from one of the local news s ources=2C I saw where they said "according to the initial investigators=2C there didn't 'appear' to be anything wrong with the airplane. That would seem to make sense=2C knowing what a perfectionist Sc ott was. The weather was basically calm=2C although at 8:00pm=2C when the accident happened=2C twilight was setting. Light=2C however=2C is NOT likely to be a factor. From discussing this situation with 'others'=2C I have been told Scott ha d some introductory flights in a MkIII. Most likely=2C Scott would not have flown solo during this int roductory flight. In one of the news articles=2C it mentioned Scott got his Sport Pilot li cense last year. This would indicate he probably didn't have a lot of flying time=2C especially when yo u consider he was spending a lot of time trying to finish building his plane! Scott was=2C you could say=2C 'a low-time' pilot. So=2C up to this point=2C the plane itself=2C the weather=2C the lighting =2C and the wing's incidences=2C don't appear to have caused the accident. What's left?? According to Carol=3B Scott took off and flew around a cou ple of times=2C and when he came in to land=2C it just nose-dived in. It landed initially on the pacement =2C but continued to tumble onto the grass. What does this tell us? If Carol is complete in her description=2C and a ll Scott did was "fly around a couple of times" =2C and then try to land=2C this tells us he did NOT climb to altitude and explore the plane's flying parameters. It primarily tells us he did not find out the plane's E XACT stall speed=2C and now we'll never know! With the fact that Scott was=3B A) a low-time pilot=2C and B) flying a plane that he may not have known the stall speed of C) the mishap occurred at the runway threshold=2C coming in for his 1st lan ding I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final=2C where it nose-di ved into the runway=2C and rolled. If these events are indeed accurate and correct=2C I am very sad=2C becau se they seem to be so avoidable. I will miss Scott. I'm am sorry he misjudged the situation=2C and let it g et out of control (if these facts are accurate). Training=2C people=2C training!! Having crashed an ultralight similar to these circumstances=2C all I can say is these accidents can be avoided=2C or at least minimized with proper flig ht education. These are the facts as I've been able to acertain. If anyone knows more =2C please share it with us. If I've mistated something=2C please correct the record. Best regards to all=2C Mike Welch ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:36:35 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Here's what I have gathered; From: "ces308" Thank you Mike, I am sorry for Scott,but it does appear he made a terrible mistake,however,It's nice to here there doesn't appear to have been a fault of the aircraft. These are fun airplanes to fly,but to an even greater degree because of there lack of weight to keep things going,you need to be very aware of your airspeed on final...where my 172 flies right through a wind gust,my M3X will stop flying and you can never forget that. Thanks again for the information...every one CAN learn from this ,if they listen. chris ambrose M3X/Jabiru 150.3 hrs 2500. total N327CS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312697#312697 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:42:23 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Here's what I have gathered; From: "Ralph B" Mike, I'm not an accident investigator either, but I do know that many fatal accidents occur due to stall-spins on landing. I was once told, "If there is any one thing to remember about flying, it's airspeed". This is especially true upon landing. It would be better to come in hot and use up runway than to bend up your airplane or hurt yourself. It's a fine line sometimes to slow it up or go off the end of a short runway. I tend to keep more speed than most pilots and maybe this has saved me a few times. Kolb's, like other light aircraft have more built-in drag than heavy and clean ones. They tend to lose speed more quickly. This means keeping the power on and nose down until it's on the ground. It's all about speed. Without that, the wings don't lift. Ralph B -------- Ralph B Original Firestar 447 N91493 E-AB 1000 hours 23 years flying it Kolbra 912UL N20386 2 years flying it 120 hrs Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312698#312698 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:38 PM PST US From: "PCKing" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered; Mike, Thank you. Brian Carpenter (Rainbow Aviation) just did a webinar titled "GA to LSA: Make a Safe Transition" He makes a compelling case for maintaining airspeed on final because of the low mass and high drag of the fat ultralight LSAs. He describes them as a cotton ball compared to the GA golf ball. The highest percentage of LSA accidents occur with GA pilots at the stick. The webinar is archived at http://www.eaavideo.org/channel.aspx?ch=ch_webinars Peter C. King ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Welch To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 7:48 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered; List members, I have had many members ask me to bring this subject matter out in the open. Plus, there are way too many people now, for me to reply to. (approaching 30+) Here is what I have this far!! My initial thought was to discuss Scott's accident openly with this list, but then I thought I'd be criticized by someone for acting like an investigator. Well, I'm NOT an investigator, but I certainly am curious about the facts that caused Scott's death, especially since I do not want to duplicate them. Then, I thought maybe the subject would be best discussed privately between those only who show an interest. Last count, I've had about 14 responders, so maybe we should just bring this out in the open. (I had the same concern regarding John Ratcliffe's accident a few months ago. Yet, I didn't say anything, and John was soon forgotten, it appears. I did some checking on his situation, and it seems he must have stalled near turning base to final, and nosed it in.) With regard to Scott, here is what I have found out. This is by NO means any kind of official report, nor do I profess to have all the answers. Additionally, I accept any and all new information that may correct anything that I may misstate. A few days before Scott made his intitial flight, I asked him where he had his main wing's and his h. stabilizers set at (since the Oshkosh photos made the h.s. look like they were too high) His answer to me was " the main wing is set at where Bryan (@ Kolb Aircraft) told him to set them." He went on to say "the h. stabilizers are set like the factory recommends, but after he's flown for awhile, he can adjust that setting later. (I wish!!) So, at this point, as far as I know, he had the wing incidences and hor. stabilizers incidences set according to the factory recommended locations! Next, when I read one of the news reports from one of the local news sources, I saw where they said "according to the initial investigators, there didn't 'appear' to be anything wrong with the airplane. That would seem to make sense, knowing what a perfectionist Scott was. The weather was basically calm, although at 8:00pm, when the accident happened, twilight was setting. Light, however, is NOT likely to be a factor. From discussing this situation with 'others', I have been told Scott had some introductory flights in a MkIII. Most likely, Scott would not have flown solo during this introductory flight. In one of the news articles, it mentioned Scott got his Sport Pilot license last year. This would indicate he probably didn't have a lot of flying time, especially when you consider he was spending a lot of time trying to finish building his plane! Scott was, you could say, 'a low-time' pilot. So, up to this point, the plane itself, the weather, the lighting, and the wing's incidences, don't appear to have caused the accident. What's left?? According to Carol; Scott took off and flew around a couple of times, and when he came in to land, it just nose-dived in. It landed initially on the pacement, but continued to tumble onto the grass. What does this tell us? If Carol is complete in her description, and all Scott did was "fly around a couple of times" , and then try to land, this tells us he did NOT climb to altitude and explore the plane's flying parameters. It primarily tells us he did not find out the plane's EXACT stall speed, and now we'll never know! With the fact that Scott was; A) a low-time pilot, and B) flying a plane that he may not have known the stall speed of C) the mishap occurred at the runway threshold, coming in for his 1st landing I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final, where it nose-dived into the runway, and rolled. If these events are indeed accurate and correct, I am very sad, because they seem to be so avoidable. I will miss Scott. I'm am sorry he misjudged the situation, and let it get out of control (if these facts are accurate). Training, people, training!! Having crashed an ultralight similar to these circumstances, all I can say is these accidents can be avoided, or at least minimized with proper flight education. These are the facts as I've been able to acertain. If anyone knows more, please share it with us. If I've mistated something, please correct the record. Best regards to all, Mike Welch ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:47:04 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident Mike W: Have you discussed your findings with the NTSB? Maybe your information would help in their investigation and their determination of the cause of the accident. john h mkIII Rock House, OR I have tried to find out exactly what happened to cause Scott's fatal crash. Why? Because it matters a HELL of a lot to me!! At first, I thought I'd share what I've found with the entire list, then, I thought someone may gripe about it. So, if anyone wants to know some of the details about what happened, including what Scott and I discussed a few days prior to his maiden flight, email me off the Kolb list, and I will share with you what I have found out. Mike Welch ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:56:23 PM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered; Peter=2C Certainly there is no disputing that some GA pilots do seem to have troub le transitioning from the factory iron to the lighter=2C less mass SLA or ligh tplanes. However=2C in Scott's case=2C I'm afraid that "transitioning" wasn't the issue=2C because since he only got his Sport Pilot license last year=2C he couldn't have had very many hours in GA airplanes. At least=2C that's what I'm led to believe. Additionally=2C Carol described him as 'coming in for a landing' and then he sort of "nose-dived". This scenario is much more indicative of an approach-to-land ing- stall=2C rather than the typical GA to LSA failure to handle the mass diffe rences between the two (at touchdown). Airspeed is one thing you cannot ignor when flying an airplane=2C lest th e ground rise up and smite thee!!! Mike Welch Mike=2C Thank you. Brian Carpenter (Rainbow Aviation) just did a webinar titled "GA to LSA: Ma ke a Safe Transition" He makes a compelling case for maintaining airspeed o n final because of the low mass and high drag of the fat ultralight LSAs. H e describes them as a cotton ball compared to the GA golf ball. The highest percentage of LSA accidents occur with GA pilots at the stick. The webinar is archived at http://www.eaavideo.org/channel.aspx?ch=ch_webinars Peter C. King ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Welch Sent: Thursday=2C September 16=2C 2010 7:48 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered=3B List members=2C I have had many members ask me to bring this subject matte r out in the open. Plus=2C there are way too many people now=2C for me to reply to. (a pproaching 30+) Here is what I have this far!! My initial thought was to discuss Scott's accident openly with this list =2C but then I thought I'd be criticized by someone for acting like an investigator. Well=2C I'm NOT an investigator=2C but I certainly am curious about the facts that caused Scott's death=2C esp ecially since I do not want to duplicate them. Then=2C I thought maybe the subject would be best discussed privately bet ween those only who show an interest. Last count=2C I've had about 14 responders=2C so may be we should just bring this out in the open. (I had the same concern regarding John Ratcliffe's accident a few months ago. Yet=2C I didn't say anything=2C and John was soon forgotten=2C it appears. I did some chec king on his situation=2C and it seems he must have stalled near turning base to final=2C and nosed i t in.) With regard to Scott=2C here is what I have found out. This is by NO me ans any kind of official report=2C nor do I profess to have all the answers. Additionally=2C I acce pt any and all new information that may correct anything that I may misstate. A few days before Scott made his intitial flight=2C I asked him where he had his main wing's and his h. stabilizers set at (since the Oshkosh photos made the h.s. look like they were too high) His answer to me was " the main wing is set at where Bryan (@ Kolb Aircraft ) told him to set them." He went on to say "the h. stabilizers are set like the factory recommends =2C but after he's flown for awhile=2C he can adjust that setting later. (I wish!!) So=2C at this point=2C as far as I know=2C he had the wing incidences and hor. stabilizers incidences set according to the factory recommended locations! Next=2C when I read one of the news reports from one of the local news s ources=2C I saw where they said "according to the initial investigators=2C there didn't 'appear' to be anything wrong with the airplane. That would seem to make sense=2C knowing what a perfectionist Sc ott was. The weather was basically calm=2C although at 8:00pm=2C when the accident happened=2C twilight was setting. Light=2C however=2C is NOT likely to be a factor. From discussing this situation with 'others'=2C I have been told Scott ha d some introductory flights in a MkIII. Most likely=2C Scott would not have flown solo during this int roductory flight. In one of the news articles=2C it mentioned Scott got his Sport Pilot li cense last year. This would indicate he probably didn't have a lot of flying time=2C especially when yo u consider he was spending a lot of time trying to finish building his plane! Scott was=2C you could say=2C 'a low-time' pilot. So=2C up to this point=2C the plane itself=2C the weather=2C the lighting =2C and the wing's incidences=2C don't appear to have caused the accident. What's left?? According to Carol=3B Scott took off and flew around a cou ple of times=2C and when he came in to land=2C it just nose-dived in. It landed initially on the pacement =2C but continued to tumble onto the grass. What does this tell us? If Carol is complete in her description=2C and a ll Scott did was "fly around a couple of times" =2C and then try to land=2C this tells us he did NOT climb to altitude and explore the plane's flying parameters. It primarily tells us he did not find out the plane's E XACT stall speed=2C and now we'll never know! With the fact that Scott was=3B A) a low-time pilot=2C and B) flying a plane that he may not have known the stall speed of C) the mishap occurred at the runway threshold=2C coming in for his 1st lan ding I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final=2C where it nose-di ved into the runway=2C and rolled. If these events are indeed accurate and correct=2C I am very sad=2C becau se they seem to be so avoidable. I will miss Scott. I'm am sorry he misjudged the situation=2C and let it g et out of control (if these facts are accurate). Training=2C people=2C training!! Having crashed an ultralight similar to these circumstances=2C all I can say is these accidents can be avoided=2C or at least minimized with proper flig ht education. These are the facts as I've been able to acertain. If anyone knows more =2C please share it with us. If I've mistated something=2C please correct the record. Best regards to all=2C Mike Welch href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:33 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident From: Daniel Myers Class move John I like it Daniel Sent from my iPhone On Sep 16=2C 2010=2C at 3:23 PM=2C "John Hauck" wrot e: > Mike W: > > Have you discussed your findings with the NTSB? > > Maybe your information would help in their investigation and their determ ination of the cause of the accident. > > john h > mkIII > Rock House=2C OR > I have tried to find out exactly what happened to cause Scott's fatal crash. > Why? Because it matters a HELL of a lot to me!! At first=2C I thought I 'd share what > I've found with the entire list=2C then=2C I thought someone may gripe ab out it. > > So=2C if anyone wants to know some of the details about what happened =2C including > what Scott and I discussed a few days prior to his maiden flight=2C email me off > the Kolb list=2C and I will share with you what I have found out. > > Mike Welch > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:09:48 PM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident >Mike W: >Have you discussed your findings with the NTSB? >Maybe your information would help in their investigation and their determi nation of >the cause of the accident. >john h >mkIII John H=2C No=2C I haven't=2C but I will be calling them tomorrow. But the fact is =2C I shared what little information I dug up=2C and packaged into one concise email. T he information I gathered was either reading it in news articles relating to t he crash (in otherwords...public information)=2C my emails with Scott=2C just prior to his flight=2C and telephone conversations with a couple of Kolb list mem bers. I'm simply trying to save lives. Do you have a problem with my discussi on? Am I supposed to contact that NTSB to show a concern for Kolb pilots? Mike Welch ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:27:32 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered; From: Richard Girard Whoa! Let's get something straight. Gusts and wind affect glide path and ground speed, not airspeed. The danger is inexperienced pilots who get fixated on a point and pull back on the stick in an effort to maintain glide toward that point. The only thing that counts is airspeed, period. As I told Mike when we talked on Sunday, I have a mantra that goes on in my head, and sometimes out loud, from the moment I pull power back from cruise to set up an approach. It's just two words, Hold 50. If you watched the video I made about the sight picture as it changes for flap settings, you can hear me over the sound of the 582 saying, "turning final, HOLD 50". It's my choice of approach airspeed for my Mk III based upon the stall speeds I documented. It makes absolutely no difference if I hold some power in reserve or close the throttle completely, it's HOLD 50 and it stays HOLD 50 until I pull back on the stick to round out and let her settle to the ground. If I'm a little too high on approach, which I actually prefer, I can slip Zulu Delta to lose altitude a little faster, and I still HOLD 50. Rick Girard On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 9:18 PM, PCKing wrote: > Mike, > > Thank you. > > Brian Carpenter (Rainbow Aviation) just did a webinar titled "GA to LSA: > Make a Safe Transition" He makes a compelling case for maintaining airspeed > on final because of the low mass and high drag of the fat ultralight LSAs. > He describes them as a cotton ball compared to the GA golf ball. The highest > percentage of LSA accidents occur with GA pilots at the stick. > > The webinar is archived at > > http://www.eaavideo.org/channel.aspx?ch=ch_webinars > > Peter C. King > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Mike Welch > *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Thursday, September 16, 2010 7:48 PM > *Subject:* Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered; > > List members, I have had many members ask me to bring this subject matter > out in the > open. Plus, there are way too many people now, for me to reply to. > (approaching 30+) > Here is what I have this far!! > > My initial thought was to discuss Scott's accident openly with this > list, but then I thought > I'd be criticized by someone for acting like an investigator. Well, I'm > NOT an investigator, > but I certainly am curious about the facts that caused Scott's death, > especially since I do > not want to duplicate them. > Then, I thought maybe the subject would be best discussed privately > between those only > who show an interest. Last count, I've had about 14 responders, so maybe > we should just > bring this out in the open. > > (I had the same concern regarding John Ratcliffe's accident a few months > ago. Yet, I didn't > say anything, and John was soon forgotten, it appears. I did some checking > on his situation, > and it seems he must have stalled near turning base to final, and nosed it > in.) > > With regard to Scott, here is what I have found out. This is by NO > means any kind of official > report, nor do I profess to have all the answers. Additionally, I accept > any and all new information > that may correct anything that I may misstate. > > A few days before Scott made his intitial flight, I asked him where he > had his main wing's and > his h. stabilizers set at (since the Oshkosh photos made the h.s. look like > they were too high) > His answer to me was " the main wing is set at where Bryan (@ Kolb > Aircraft) told him to set them." > He went on to say "the h. stabilizers are set like the factory recommends, > but after he's flown > for awhile, he can adjust that setting later. (I wish!!) > So, at this point, as far as I know, he had the wing incidences and hor. > stabilizers incidences set > according to the factory recommended locations! > > Next, when I read one of the news reports from one of the local news > sources, I saw where they > said "according to the initial investigators, there didn't 'appear' to be > anything wrong with the > airplane. That would seem to make sense, knowing what a perfectionist > Scott was. > > The weather was basically calm, although at 8:00pm, when the accident > happened, twilight was > setting. Light, however, is NOT likely to be a factor. > > From discussing this situation with 'others', I have been told Scott had > some introductory flights > in a MkIII. Most likely, Scott would not have flown solo during this > introductory flight. > In one of the news articles, it mentioned Scott got his Sport Pilot > license last year. This would > indicate he probably didn't have a lot of flying time, especially when you > consider he was spending > a lot of time trying to finish building his plane! Scott was, you could > say, 'a low-time' pilot. > > So, up to this point, the plane itself, the weather, the lighting, and > the wing's incidences, don't appear > to have caused the accident. > > What's left?? According to Carol; Scott took off and flew around a > couple of times, and when he came > in to land, it just nose-dived in. It landed initially on the pacement, > but continued to tumble onto the > grass. > What does this tell us? If Carol is complete in her description, and all > Scott did was "fly around a > couple of times" , and then try to land, this tells us he did NOT climb to > altitude and explore the plane's > flying parameters. It primarily tells us he did not find out the plane's > EXACT stall speed, and now we'll > never know! > > With the fact that Scott was; > A) a low-time pilot, and > B) flying a plane that he may not have known the stall speed of > C) the mishap occurred at the runway threshold, coming in for his 1st > landing > > I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final, where it > nose-dived into the runway, and rolled. > > If these events are indeed accurate and correct, I am very sad, because > they seem to be so avoidable. > I will miss Scott. I'm am sorry he misjudged the situation, and let it get > out of control (if these facts > are accurate). > > Training, people, training!! Having crashed an ultralight similar to > these circumstances, all I can say > is these accidents can be avoided, or at least minimized with proper flight > education. > > These are the facts as I've been able to acertain. If anyone knows more, > please share it with us. > If I've mistated something, please correct the record. > > Best regards to all, > Mike Welch > > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c* > > * > > * > > -- Zulu Delta Kolb Mk IIIC 582 Gray head 4.00 C gearbox 3 blade WD Thanks, Homer GBYM It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong. - G.K. Chesterton ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:39:45 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident From: Daniel Myers Mike=2C my uncle died in my kolb and no one knows what happened except for him. Kolbs Are great planes but are very unforgiving. I continue to fly Kol bs only because I know not to get close to that stall speed. I have only ow ned two Kolbs but I know the limits..this guy was on his first flight=2C it 's a terrible situation because he didn't know the kolb and it's limits. Daniel Sent from my iPhoned On Sep 16=2C 2010=2C at 11:06 PM=2C Mike Welch wr ote: > >Mike W: > > >Have you discussed your findings with the NTSB? > > >Maybe your information would help in their investigation and their deter mination of >the cause of the accident. > > >john h > >mkIII > > John H=2C > > No=2C I haven't=2C but I will be calling them tomorrow. But the fact i s=2C I shared > what little information I dug up=2C and packaged into one concise email. The > information I gathered was either reading it in news articles relating to the > crash (in otherwords...public information)=2C my emails with Scott=2C jus t prior > to his flight=2C and telephone conversations with a couple of Kolb list m embers. > > I'm simply trying to save lives. Do you have a problem with my discus sion? > Am I supposed to contact that NTSB to show a concern for Kolb pilots? > > Mike Welch > > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:01:06 PM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident Mike=2C my uncle died in my kolb and no one knows what happened except for him. Kolbs Are great planes but are very unforgiving. I continue to fly Kol bs only because I know not to get close to that stall speed. I have only ow ned two Kolbs but I know the limits..this guy was on his first flight=2C it 's a terrible situation because he didn't know the kolb and it's limits. Daniel Daniel=2C You are exactly right (with your last statement). I am afraid it is poss ible it is as simple as he may have simply misjudged what he was doing. Of course=2C we will never know the whole truth now. It is only my intention to help educate those of us who fly=2C or are yet to fly=2C their Kolb aircraft. Crashing and dieing does little good to both the families left behind and t he reputation of the aircraft. I would like to reduce the damage by analyzing what we know=2C and learn from our errors. Believe it or not=2C there may be people who have a problem with that. Mike Welch My condolences regarding your uncle=2C Daniel. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.