Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:12 AM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Fran Losey)
2. 03:36 AM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (william sullivan)
3. 05:34 AM - Re: Kolb-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 09/16/10 (icrashrc@aol.com)
4. 07:02 AM - Re: Upgrading from current 4.00-6 "Garden" tires. (gotime242)
5. 07:05 AM - Re: Re: kolb stall (Richard Neilsen)
6. 07:16 AM - Re: Re: kolb stall (Dana Hague)
7. 03:41 PM - airspeed indicator calibration (Mike Welch)
8. 05:02 PM - Re: airspeed indicator calibration (Dana Hague)
9. 07:28 PM - Re: airspeed indicator calibration (Richard Pike)
10. 09:27 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (R. Hankins)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Scott Thompson's accident |
On 9/17/2010 12:57 AM, Mike Welch wrote:
> Mike, my uncle died in my kolb and no one knows what happened except
> for him. Kolbs Are great planes but are very unforgiving. I continue
> to fly Kolbs only because I know not to get close to that stall speed.
> I have only owned two Kolbs but I know the limits..this guy was on his
> first flight, it's a terrible situation because he didn't know the
> kolb and it's limits.
> Daniel
>
> Daniel,
> You are exactly right (with your last statement). I am afraid it is
> possible it is as simple as
> he may have simply misjudged what he was doing. Of course, we will
> never know the whole truth now.
> It is only my intention to help educate those of us who fly, or are
> yet to fly, their Kolb aircraft.
> Crashing and dieing does little good to both the families left behind
> and the reputation of the aircraft. I
> would like to reduce the damage by analyzing what we know, and learn
> from our errors. Believe it or
> not, there may be people who have a problem with that.
> Mike Welch
> My condolences regarding your uncle, Daniel.
> *
>
>
> *
Mike and all,
Although some bantering seems to occur when sensitive discussions are
placed in the forum, I truly appreciate all feedback from all parties,
as I feel it refreshes my awareness as a pilot, and allows me to step
back for a minute, think about points that are stated, and reflect how
I would have handled (or not) such a situation. When this forum stops
these healthy (and surely painful) discussions, I will most likely leave
it...
I am in the middle of building right now, and although I did not know
Scott personally, can say I appreciated his contributions on this forum,
and felt in my gut he was a person that would give you the shirt off his
back, asking nothing in return.
Thanks for sharing, and listening. RIP Scott.
--
Sincerely, Fran Losey www.mykitlog.com\loseyf
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Scott Thompson's accident |
- I think the current thread on the accident is good for the List.- Con
jecture will bring awareness of the peculiarities of the handling of low dr
ag, high lift, low weight aircraft.- The NTSB will eventually give the pa
rticulars.- Both will be good for all.- I hope someone will maintain Sc
ott's web site, as it is an excellent reference.- We all are going to mis
s him.
-
-------------------------
-------------------------
Bill Sullivan
-------------------------
-------------------------
-Windsor Locks, Ct.
-------------------------
-------------------------
FS 447
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Kolb-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 09/16/10 |
For those of you who don't know me, I am Scott's wife. I can assure you th
at when he was flying around the pattern that he tested the stall speed.
He gave me a list of the things he would do on his intial flight. One of
those was stall speed.
-----Original Message-----
From: Kolb-List Digest Server <kolb-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Fri, Sep 17, 2010 2:57 am
Subject: Kolb-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 09/16/10
*
========================
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wo Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
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nd Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
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uch as Notepad or with a web browser.
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Kolb-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Thu 09/16/10: 18
----------------------------------------------------------
oday's Message Index:
---------------------
1. 05:51 AM - That pesky ELSA re-registration problem (Richard Girard
)
2. 10:36 AM - Annual Condition Inspection checklist for Kolbra (Ralph
B)
3. 11:24 AM - Re: Annual Condition Inspection checklist for Kolbra (R
alph
)
4. 11:52 AM - Scott Thompson's accident (Mike Welch)
5. 02:04 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Mike Welch)
6. 02:20 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (PCKing)
7. 02:41 PM - my email address (Mike Welch)
8. 04:51 PM - Here's what I have gathered; (Mike Welch)
9. 05:36 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (ces308)
10. 05:42 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (Ralph B)
11. 07:25 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (PCKing)
12. 07:47 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (John Hauck)
13. 07:56 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (Mike Welch)
14. 08:03 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Daniel Myers)
15. 08:09 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Mike Welch)
16. 09:27 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (Richard Girard)
17. 09:39 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Daniel Myers)
18. 10:01 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Mike Welch)
_______________________________ Message 1 ______________________________
_______
ime: 05:51:16 AM PST US
ubject: Kolb-List: That pesky ELSA re-registration problem
rom: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
After much thought about how to make it legal to re-register an ELSA that
he owner has allowed the registration to expire under the terms of the new
ule I sent the following to the applicable FAA personnel this morning.
"Dear Sirs, There is a problem with the new rule for triennial
e-registration of aircraft when it is applied to experimental light sport
ircraft (ELSA) that were registered under the provisions of FAR 21.191
(1).
f an owner of an ELSA fails to re-register during the applicable period an
d
he registration expires there is no legal means to register the aircraft
gain.
AR 21.191 i(1) expired on January 3, 2008. Form 8050-88A (Affidavit of
wnership) that is required to be filed along with 8050-1 to register an
LSA has been revised so that the only two options for registering an ELSA
re through FAR 21.191 i(2) (aircraft built from a kit of a qualifying
pecial light sport aircraft (SLSA)) and FAR 21.190 (essentially for
anufacturers who need to register a prototype to do compliance testing of
n SLSA).
believe there is a simple way to fix this problem. Revise form 8050-88A
to
nclude an option to the effect, "this aircraft was previously registered
as
_______ under the provisions of FAR 21.191 i(1) and the paperwork is on
ile with the FAA". I believe wording like this or similar would allow an
rrant owner to re-register the aircraft following expiration with a minimu
m
f problems and prevent those who might try to use the provision to registe
r
n aircraft that had not previously been registered.
hank you for your time."
I did this after spending a good portion of yesterday morning talking and
riting to various officials in the FAA about the problem. It occurred to
me
ate last night that the easiest way to get something fixed when there is
a
roblem is to present a solution to those who can remedy it. What the heck,
t's worth a try.
Rick Girard
--
ulu Delta
olb Mk IIIC
82 Gray head
.00 C gearbox
blade WD
hanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unab
le
o imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________
________
ime: 10:36:54 AM PST US
ubject: Kolb-List: Annual Condition Inspection checklist for Kolbra
rom: "Ralph B" <ul15@juno.com>
ravis Brown from Kolb asked it I would post the Annual Condition inspectio
n
hecklist
or the Kolbra. This checklist will work for other Kolbs too.
Ralph B
--------
alph B
riginal Firestar 447
91493 E-AB
000 hours
3 years flying it
olbra 912UL
20386
years flying it
20 hrs
ead this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312658#312658
ttachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/annual_inspection_checklist_179.doc
_______________________________ Message 3 ______________________________
_______
ime: 11:24:48 AM PST US
ubject: Kolb-List: Re: Annual Condition Inspection checklist for Kolbra
rom: "Ralph B" <ul15@juno.com>
fter the inspection is finished, post these words in the aircraft logbook:
date
I certify this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with the scope
nd detail of appendix D to Part 43 and found to be in a condition for safe
peration.
Flight time: XXX.X hours
ame of inspector
ert #xxxxxxxx
--------
alph B
riginal Firestar 447
91493 E-AB
000 hours
3 years flying it
olbra 912UL
20386
years flying it
20 hrs
ead this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312666#312666
_______________________________ Message 4 ______________________________
_______
ime: 11:52:12 AM PST US
rom: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
ubject: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
olb guys=2C
I have tried to find out exactly what happened to cause Scott's fatal cr
a
h.
hy? Because it matters a HELL of a lot to me!! At first=2C I thought
I'd
share what
've found with the entire list=2C then=2C I thought someone may gripe
abou
it.
So=2C if anyone wants to know some of the details about what happened
=2C
ncluding
hat Scott and I discussed a few days prior to his maiden flight=2C email
m
off
he Kolb list=2C and I will share with you what I have found out.
Mike Welch
________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________
________
ime: 02:04:08 PM PST US
rom: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
ubject: RE: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
ist members=2C
I've had a few guys check in=2C but I'm waiting a little while for
few more before we get the conversation going.
The primary reason is for the 'off-list' discussion is I can picture
omeone asking me "who the hell do you think you are.....?" Me? Nobody.
ust a friend of Scott's that would like to figure out what happened=2C
hat's all. I sick and damn tired of hearing about my Kolb buddies
ieing. I'd like to find out why they died...and do my best not to repeat
heir 'mistakes'=2C without trying to pass judgement on them.
Mike Welch
________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________
________
ime: 02:20:48 PM PST US
rom: "PCKing" <pc.king@comcast.net>
ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
ike,
You may not have received many offline requests because everyone on the
ist doesn't have your email address.
I met Scott at AirVenture this year. We spoke about where to source
ileron and flap control seals. I was sad to hear that he'd passed away
est flying something he was so proud of.
I'd like to know what happened.
Peter C. King
c.king@comcast.net
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Welch
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 5:00 PM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
List members,
I've had a few guys check in, but I'm waiting a little while for
a few more before we get the conversation going.
The primary reason is for the 'off-list' discussion is I can picture
someone asking me "who the hell do you think you are.....?" Me?
obody.
Just a friend of Scott's that would like to figure out what happened,
that's all. I sick and damn tired of hearing about my Kolb buddies
dieing. I'd like to find out why they died...and do my best not to
epeat
their 'mistakes', without trying to pass judgement on them.
Mike Welch
_______________________________ Message 7 ______________________________
_______
ime: 02:41:30 PM PST US
rom: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
ubject: Kolb-List: my email address
y email address is=3B mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com (don't forget the '7'!!
!)
Mike Welch
________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________
________
ime: 04:51:45 PM PST US
rom: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
ubject: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered;
ist members=2C I have had many members ask me to bring this subject mat
te
out in the
pen. Plus=2C there are way too many people now=2C for me to reply to.
(a
proaching 30+)
ere is what I have this far!!
My initial thought was to discuss Scott's accident openly with this list
2C but then I thought
'd be criticized by someone for acting like an investigator. Well=2C I'
m
OT an investigator=2C
ut I certainly am curious about the facts that caused Scott's death=2C
esp
cially since I do
ot want to duplicate them.
Then=2C I thought maybe the subject would be best discussed privately
bet
een those only
ho show an interest. Last count=2C I've had about 14 responders=2C so
may
e we should just
ring this out in the open.
(I had the same concern regarding John Ratcliffe's accident a few months
go. Yet=2C I didn't
ay anything=2C and John was soon forgotten=2C it appears. I did some
chec
ing on his situation=2C
nd it seems he must have stalled near turning base to final=2C and nosed
i
in.)
With regard to Scott=2C here is what I have found out. This is by NO
me
ns any kind of official
eport=2C nor do I profess to have all the answers. Additionally=2C I
acce
t any and all new information
hat may correct anything that I may misstate.
A few days before Scott made his intitial flight=2C I asked him where
he
ad his main wing's and
is h. stabilizers set at (since the Oshkosh photos made the h.s. look like
they were too high)
is answer to me was " the main wing is set at where Bryan (@ Kolb Aircraft
told him to set them."
e went on to say "the h. stabilizers are set like the factory recommends
2C but after he's flown
or awhile=2C he can adjust that setting later. (I wish!!)
So=2C at this point=2C as far as I know=2C he had the wing incidenc
es and
hor. stabilizers incidences set
ccording to the factory recommended locations!
Next=2C when I read one of the news reports from one of the local new
s s
urces=2C I saw where they
aid "according to the initial investigators=2C there didn't 'appear' to
be
anything wrong with the
irplane. That would seem to make sense=2C knowing what a perfectionist
Sc
tt was.
The weather was basically calm=2C although at 8:00pm=2C when the acc
ident
happened=2C twilight was
etting. Light=2C however=2C is NOT likely to be a factor.
From discussing this situation with 'others'=2C I have been told Scott
ha
some introductory flights
n a MkIII. Most likely=2C Scott would not have flown solo during this
int
oductory flight.
In one of the news articles=2C it mentioned Scott got his Sport Pilot
li
ense last year. This would
ndicate he probably didn't have a lot of flying time=2C especially when
yo
consider he was spending
lot of time trying to finish building his plane! Scott was=2C you coul
d
ay=2C 'a low-time' pilot.
So=2C up to this point=2C the plane itself=2C the weather=2C the
lighting
2C and the wing's incidences=2C don't appear
o have caused the accident.
What's left?? According to Carol=3B Scott took off and flew around a
cou
le of times=2C and when he came
n to land=2C it just nose-dived in. It landed initially on the pacemen
t
2C but continued to tumble onto the
rass.
What does this tell us? If Carol is complete in her description=2C and
a
l Scott did was "fly around a
ouple of times" =2C and then try to land=2C this tells us he did NOT
climb
to altitude and explore the plane's
lying parameters. It primarily tells us he did not find out the plane's
E
ACT stall speed=2C and now we'll
ever know!
With the fact that Scott was=3B
) a low-time pilot=2C and
) flying a plane that he may not have known the stall speed of
) the mishap occurred at the runway threshold=2C coming in for his 1st
lan
ing
I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final=2C where it nose
-di
ed into the runway=2C and rolled.
If these events are indeed accurate and correct=2C I am very sad=2C
becau
e they seem to be so avoidable.
will miss Scott. I'm am sorry he misjudged the situation=2C and let it
g
t out of control (if these facts
re accurate).
Training=2C people=2C training!! Having crashed an ultralight simil
ar to
these circumstances=2C all I can say
s these accidents can be avoided=2C or at least minimized with proper fl
ig
t education.
These are the facts as I've been able to acertain. If anyone knows more
2C please share it with us.
f I've mistated something=2C please correct the record.
Best regards to all=2C
ike Welch
________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________
________
ime: 05:36:35 PM PST US
ubject: Kolb-List: Re: Here's what I have gathered;
rom: "ces308" <ces308@ldaco.com>
hank you Mike,
I am sorry for Scott,but it does appear he made a terrible mistake,however
,It's
ice to here there doesn't appear to have been a fault of the aircraft.
These are fun airplanes to fly,but to an even greater degree because of th
ere
ack
f weight to keep things going,you need to be very aware of your airspeed
n final...where my 172 flies right through a wind gust,my M3X will stop fl
ying
nd you can never forget that.
Thanks again for the information...every one CAN learn from this ,if they
isten.
chris ambrose
3X/Jabiru 150.3 hrs 2500. total
327CS
ead this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312697#312697
_______________________________ Message 10 _____________________________
_______
ime: 05:42:23 PM PST US
ubject: Kolb-List: Re: Here's what I have gathered;
rom: "Ralph B" <ul15@juno.com>
ike, I'm not an accident investigator either, but I do know that many fata
l
ccidents
ccur due to stall-spins on landing. I was once told, "If there is any
ne thing to remember about flying, it's airspeed". This is especially true
upon
anding. It would be better to come in hot and use up runway than to bend
p your airplane or hurt yourself. It's a fine line sometimes to slow it up
or
o off the end of a short runway. I tend to keep more speed than most pilot
s
nd maybe this has saved me a few times. Kolb's, like other light aircraft
have
ore built-in drag than heavy and clean ones. They tend to lose speed more
uickly.
his means keeping the power on and nose down until it's on the ground.
t's all about speed. Without that, the wings don't lift.
Ralph B
--------
alph B
riginal Firestar 447
91493 E-AB
000 hours
3 years flying it
olbra 912UL
20386
years flying it
20 hrs
ead this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312698#312698
_______________________________ Message 11 _____________________________
_______
ime: 07:25:38 PM PST US
rom: "PCKing" <pc.king@comcast.net>
ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered;
Mike,
Thank you.
Brian Carpenter (Rainbow Aviation) just did a webinar titled "GA to LSA:
ake a Safe Transition" He makes a compelling case for maintaining
irspeed on final because of the low mass and high drag of the fat
ltralight LSAs. He describes them as a cotton ball compared to the GA
olf ball. The highest percentage of LSA accidents occur with GA pilots
t the stick.
The webinar is archived at
http://www.eaavideo.org/channel.aspx?ch=ch_webinars
Peter C. King
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Welch
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 7:48 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered;
List members, I have had many members ask me to bring this subject
atter out in the
open. Plus, there are way too many people now, for me to reply to.
approaching 30+)
Here is what I have this far!!
My initial thought was to discuss Scott's accident openly with this
ist, but then I thought
I'd be criticized by someone for acting like an investigator. Well,
'm NOT an investigator,
but I certainly am curious about the facts that caused Scott's death,
specially since I do
not want to duplicate them.
Then, I thought maybe the subject would be best discussed privately
etween those only
who show an interest. Last count, I've had about 14 responders, so
aybe we should just
bring this out in the open.
(I had the same concern regarding John Ratcliffe's accident a few
onths ago. Yet, I didn't
say anything, and John was soon forgotten, it appears. I did some
hecking on his situation,
and it seems he must have stalled near turning base to final, and
osed it in.)
With regard to Scott, here is what I have found out. This is by NO
eans any kind of official
report, nor do I profess to have all the answers. Additionally, I
ccept any and all new information
that may correct anything that I may misstate.
A few days before Scott made his intitial flight, I asked him where
e had his main wing's and
his h. stabilizers set at (since the Oshkosh photos made the h.s. look
ike they were too high)
His answer to me was " the main wing is set at where Bryan (@ Kolb
ircraft) told him to set them."
He went on to say "the h. stabilizers are set like the factory
ecommends, but after he's flown
for awhile, he can adjust that setting later. (I wish!!)
So, at this point, as far as I know, he had the wing incidences and
or. stabilizers incidences set
according to the factory recommended locations!
Next, when I read one of the news reports from one of the local
ews sources, I saw where they
said "according to the initial investigators, there didn't 'appear' to
e anything wrong with the
airplane. That would seem to make sense, knowing what a perfectionist
cott was.
The weather was basically calm, although at 8:00pm, when the
ccident happened, twilight was
setting. Light, however, is NOT likely to be a factor.
From discussing this situation with 'others', I have been told Scott
ad some introductory flights
in a MkIII. Most likely, Scott would not have flown solo during this
ntroductory flight.
In one of the news articles, it mentioned Scott got his Sport Pilot
icense last year. This would
indicate he probably didn't have a lot of flying time, especially when
ou consider he was spending
a lot of time trying to finish building his plane! Scott was, you
ould say, 'a low-time' pilot.
So, up to this point, the plane itself, the weather, the lighting,
nd the wing's incidences, don't appear
to have caused the accident.
What's left?? According to Carol; Scott took off and flew around a
ouple of times, and when he came
in to land, it just nose-dived in. It landed initially on the
acement, but continued to tumble onto the
grass.
What does this tell us? If Carol is complete in her description,
nd all Scott did was "fly around a
couple of times" , and then try to land, this tells us he did NOT
limb to altitude and explore the plane's
flying parameters. It primarily tells us he did not find out the
lane's EXACT stall speed, and now we'll
never know!
With the fact that Scott was;
A) a low-time pilot, and
B) flying a plane that he may not have known the stall speed of
C) the mishap occurred at the runway threshold, coming in for his 1st
anding
I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final, where it
ose-dived into the runway, and rolled.
If these events are indeed accurate and correct, I am very sad,
ecause they seem to be so avoidable.
I will miss Scott. I'm am sorry he misjudged the situation, and let
t get out of control (if these facts
are accurate).
Training, people, training!! Having crashed an ultralight similar
o these circumstances, all I can say
is these accidents can be avoided, or at least minimized with proper
light education.
These are the facts as I've been able to acertain. If anyone knows
ore, please share it with us.
If I've mistated something, please correct the record.
Best regards to all,
Mike Welch
_______________________________ Message 12 _____________________________
_______
ime: 07:47:04 PM PST US
rom: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
Mike W:
Have you discussed your findings with the NTSB?
Maybe your information would help in their investigation and their
etermination of the cause of the accident.
john h
kIII
ock House, OR
I have tried to find out exactly what happened to cause Scott's
atal crash.
Why? Because it matters a HELL of a lot to me!! At first, I thought
'd share what
I've found with the entire list, then, I thought someone may gripe
bout it.
So, if anyone wants to know some of the details about what happened,
ncluding
what Scott and I discussed a few days prior to his maiden flight,
mail me off
the Kolb list, and I will share with you what I have found out.
Mike Welch
________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________
________
ime: 07:56:23 PM PST US
rom: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
ubject: RE: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered;
eter=2C
Certainly there is no disputing that some GA pilots do seem to have trou
b
e
ransitioning from the factory iron to the lighter=2C less mass SLA or li
gh
planes.
However=2C in Scott's case=2C I'm afraid that "transitioning" wasn't
the
ssue=2C because
ince he only got his Sport Pilot license last year=2C he couldn't have
had
very many
ours in GA airplanes. At least=2C that's what I'm led to believe.
Additionally=2C Carol described him as 'coming in for a landing' and th
en
he sort of
nose-dived". This scenario is much more indicative of an approach-to-land
ng-
tall=2C rather than the typical GA to LSA failure to handle the mass dif
fe
ences
etween the two (at touchdown).
Airspeed is one thing you cannot ignor when flying an airplane=2C lest
th
ground
ise up and smite thee!!!
Mike Welch
ike=2C
Thank you.
Brian Carpenter (Rainbow Aviation) just did a webinar titled "GA to LSA:
Ma
e a Safe Transition" He makes a compelling case for maintaining airspeed
o
final because of the low mass and high drag of the fat ultralight LSAs.
H
describes them as a cotton ball compared to the GA golf ball. The highest
percentage of LSA accidents occur with GA pilots at the stick.
The webinar is archived at
http://www.eaavideo.org/channel.aspx?ch=ch_webinars
Peter C. King
---- Original Message -----
rom: Mike Welch
ent: Thursday=2C September 16=2C 2010 7:48 PM
ubject: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered=3B
List members=2C I have had many members ask me to bring this subject ma
tte
out in the
pen. Plus=2C there are way too many people now=2C for me to reply to.
(a
proaching 30+)
ere is what I have this far!!
My initial thought was to discuss Scott's accident openly with this list
2C but then I thought
'd be criticized by someone for acting like an investigator. Well=2C I'
m
OT an investigator=2C
ut I certainly am curious about the facts that caused Scott's death=2C
esp
cially since I do
ot want to duplicate them.
Then=2C I thought maybe the subject would be best discussed privately
bet
een those only
ho show an interest. Last count=2C I've had about 14 responders=2C so
may
e we should just
ring this out in the open.
(I had the same concern regarding John Ratcliffe's accident a few months
go. Yet=2C I didn't
ay anything=2C and John was soon forgotten=2C it appears. I did some
chec
ing on his situation=2C
nd it seems he must have stalled near turning base to final=2C and nosed
i
in.)
With regard to Scott=2C here is what I have found out. This is by NO
me
ns any kind of official
eport=2C nor do I profess to have all the answers. Additionally=2C I
acce
t any and all new information
hat may correct anything that I may misstate.
A few days before Scott made his intitial flight=2C I asked him where
he
ad his main wing's and
is h. stabilizers set at (since the Oshkosh photos made the h.s. look like
they were too high)
is answer to me was " the main wing is set at where Bryan (@ Kolb Aircraft
told him to set them."
e went on to say "the h. stabilizers are set like the factory recommends
2C but after he's flown
or awhile=2C he can adjust that setting later. (I wish!!)
So=2C at this point=2C as far as I know=2C he had the wing incidenc
es and
hor. stabilizers incidences set
ccording to the factory recommended locations!
Next=2C when I read one of the news reports from one of the local new
s s
urces=2C I saw where they
aid "according to the initial investigators=2C there didn't 'appear' to
be
anything wrong with the
irplane. That would seem to make sense=2C knowing what a perfectionist
Sc
tt was.
The weather was basically calm=2C although at 8:00pm=2C when the acc
ident
happened=2C twilight was
etting. Light=2C however=2C is NOT likely to be a factor.
From discussing this situation with 'others'=2C I have been told Scott
ha
some introductory flights
n a MkIII. Most likely=2C Scott would not have flown solo during this
int
oductory flight.
In one of the news articles=2C it mentioned Scott got his Sport Pilot
li
ense last year. This would
ndicate he probably didn't have a lot of flying time=2C especially when
yo
consider he was spending
lot of time trying to finish building his plane! Scott was=2C you coul
d
ay=2C 'a low-time' pilot.
So=2C up to this point=2C the plane itself=2C the weather=2C the
lighting
2C and the wing's incidences=2C don't appear
o have caused the accident.
What's left?? According to Carol=3B Scott took off and flew around a
cou
le of times=2C and when he came
n to land=2C it just nose-dived in. It landed initially on the pacemen
t
2C but continued to tumble onto the
rass.
What does this tell us? If Carol is complete in her description=2C and
a
l Scott did was "fly around a
ouple of times" =2C and then try to land=2C this tells us he did NOT
climb
to altitude and explore the plane's
lying parameters. It primarily tells us he did not find out the plane's
E
ACT stall speed=2C and now we'll
ever know!
With the fact that Scott was=3B
) a low-time pilot=2C and
) flying a plane that he may not have known the stall speed of
) the mishap occurred at the runway threshold=2C coming in for his 1st
lan
ing
I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final=2C where it nose
-di
ed into the runway=2C and rolled.
If these events are indeed accurate and correct=2C I am very sad=2C
becau
e they seem to be so avoidable.
will miss Scott. I'm am sorry he misjudged the situation=2C and let it
g
t out of control (if these facts
re accurate).
Training=2C people=2C training!! Having crashed an ultralight simil
ar to
these circumstances=2C all I can say
s these accidents can be avoided=2C or at least minimized with proper fl
ig
t education.
These are the facts as I've been able to acertain. If anyone knows more
2C please share it with us.
f I've mistated something=2C please correct the record.
Best regards to all=2C
ike Welch
ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.
om/Navigator?Kolb-List
ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
ref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________
________
ime: 08:03:33 PM PST US
ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
rom: Daniel Myers <h20maule@hotmail.com>
Class move John I like it
aniel
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 16=2C 2010=2C at 3:23 PM=2C "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.co
m> wrot
:
> Mike W:
Have you discussed your findings with the NTSB?
Maybe your information would help in their investigation and their determ
nation of the cause of the accident.
john h
mkIII
Rock House=2C OR
I have tried to find out exactly what happened to cause Scott's fatal
rash.
Why? Because it matters a HELL of a lot to me!! At first=2C I thought
I
d share what
I've found with the entire list=2C then=2C I thought someone may grip
e ab
ut it.
So=2C if anyone wants to know some of the details about what happened
2C including
what Scott and I discussed a few days prior to his maiden flight=2C ema
il
me off
the Kolb list=2C and I will share with you what I have found out.
Mike Welch
=========
=========
=========
=========
________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________
________
ime: 08:09:48 PM PST US
rom: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
ubject: RE: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
Mike W:
>Have you discussed your findings with the NTSB?
>Maybe your information would help in their investigation and their determ
i
ation of >the cause of the accident.
>john h
mkIII
John H=2C
No=2C I haven't=2C but I will be calling them tomorrow. But the fac
t is
2C I shared
hat little information I dug up=2C and packaged into one concise email.
T
e
nformation I gathered was either reading it in news articles relating to
t
e
rash (in otherwords...public information)=2C my emails with Scott=2C
just
rior
o his flight=2C and telephone conversations with a couple of Kolb list
mem
ers.
I'm simply trying to save lives. Do you have a problem with my discuss
i
n?
m I supposed to contact that NTSB to show a concern for Kolb pilots?
Mike Welch
________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________
________
ime: 09:27:32 PM PST US
ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered;
rom: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
Whoa! Let's get something straight. Gusts and wind affect glide path and
round speed, not airspeed. The danger is inexperienced pilots who get
ixated on a point and pull back on the stick in an effort to maintain glid
e
oward that point. The only thing that counts is airspeed, period.
s I told Mike when we talked on Sunday, I have a mantra that goes on in my
ead, and sometimes out loud, from the moment I pull power back from cruise
o set up an approach. It's just two words, Hold 50. If you watched the
ideo I made about the sight picture as it changes for flap settings, you
an hear me over the sound of the 582 saying, "turning final, HOLD 50". It'
s
y choice of approach airspeed for my Mk III based upon the stall speeds I
ocumented. It makes absolutely no difference if I hold some power in
eserve or close the throttle completely, it's HOLD 50 and it stays HOLD 50
ntil I pull back on the stick to round out and let her settle to the
round. If I'm a little too high on approach, which I actually prefer, I ca
n
lip Zulu Delta to lose altitude a little faster, and I still HOLD 50.
Rick Girard
On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 9:18 PM, PCKing <pc.king@comcast.net> wrote:
> Mike,
Thank you.
Brian Carpenter (Rainbow Aviation) just did a webinar titled "GA to LSA:
Make a Safe Transition" He makes a compelling case for maintaining airspe
ed
on final because of the low mass and high drag of the fat ultralight LSAs
.
He describes them as a cotton ball compared to the GA golf ball. The high
est
percentage of LSA accidents occur with GA pilots at the stick.
The webinar is archived at
http://www.eaavideo.org/channel.aspx?ch=ch_webinars
Peter C. King
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
*To:* kolb-list@matronics.com
*Sent:* Thursday, September 16, 2010 7:48 PM
*Subject:* Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered;
List members, I have had many members ask me to bring this subject matte
r
out in the
open. Plus, there are way too many people now, for me to reply to.
(approaching 30+)
Here is what I have this far!!
My initial thought was to discuss Scott's accident openly with this
list, but then I thought
I'd be criticized by someone for acting like an investigator. Well, I'm
NOT an investigator,
but I certainly am curious about the facts that caused Scott's death,
especially since I do
not want to duplicate them.
Then, I thought maybe the subject would be best discussed privately
between those only
who show an interest. Last count, I've had about 14 responders, so maybe
we should just
bring this out in the open.
(I had the same concern regarding John Ratcliffe's accident a few month
s
ago. Yet, I didn't
say anything, and John was soon forgotten, it appears. I did some checki
ng
on his situation,
and it seems he must have stalled near turning base to final, and nosed
it
in.)
With regard to Scott, here is what I have found out. This is by NO
means any kind of official
report, nor do I profess to have all the answers. Additionally, I accept
any and all new information
that may correct anything that I may misstate.
A few days before Scott made his intitial flight, I asked him where he
had his main wing's and
his h. stabilizers set at (since the Oshkosh photos made the h.s. look li
ke
they were too high)
His answer to me was " the main wing is set at where Bryan (@ Kolb
Aircraft) told him to set them."
He went on to say "the h. stabilizers are set like the factory recommends
,
but after he's flown
for awhile, he can adjust that setting later. (I wish!!)
So, at this point, as far as I know, he had the wing incidences and hor
.
stabilizers incidences set
according to the factory recommended locations!
Next, when I read one of the news reports from one of the local news
sources, I saw where they
said "according to the initial investigators, there didn't 'appear' to be
anything wrong with the
airplane. That would seem to make sense, knowing what a perfectionist
Scott was.
The weather was basically calm, although at 8:00pm, when the accident
happened, twilight was
setting. Light, however, is NOT likely to be a factor.
From discussing this situation with 'others', I have been told Scott ha
d
some introductory flights
in a MkIII. Most likely, Scott would not have flown solo during this
introductory flight.
In one of the news articles, it mentioned Scott got his Sport Pilot
license last year. This would
indicate he probably didn't have a lot of flying time, especially when yo
u
consider he was spending
a lot of time trying to finish building his plane! Scott was, you could
say, 'a low-time' pilot.
So, up to this point, the plane itself, the weather, the lighting, and
the wing's incidences, don't appear
to have caused the accident.
What's left?? According to Carol; Scott took off and flew around a
couple of times, and when he came
in to land, it just nose-dived in. It landed initially on the pacement,
but continued to tumble onto the
grass.
What does this tell us? If Carol is complete in her description, and
all
Scott did was "fly around a
couple of times" , and then try to land, this tells us he did NOT climb
to
altitude and explore the plane's
flying parameters. It primarily tells us he did not find out the plane's
EXACT stall speed, and now we'll
never know!
With the fact that Scott was;
A) a low-time pilot, and
B) flying a plane that he may not have known the stall speed of
C) the mishap occurred at the runway threshold, coming in for his 1st
landing
I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final, where it
nose-dived into the runway, and rolled.
If these events are indeed accurate and correct, I am very sad, because
they seem to be so avoidable.
I will miss Scott. I'm am sorry he misjudged the situation, and let it
get
out of control (if these facts
are accurate).
Training, people, training!! Having crashed an ultralight similar to
these circumstances, all I can say
is these accidents can be avoided, or at least minimized with proper flig
ht
education.
These are the facts as I've been able to acertain. If anyone knows mor
e,
please share it with us.
If I've mistated something, please correct the record.
Best regards to all,
Mike Welch
*
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
*
*
*
-
ulu Delta
olb Mk IIIC
82 Gray head
.00 C gearbox
blade WD
hanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unab
le
o imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________
________
ime: 09:39:45 PM PST US
ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
rom: Daniel Myers <h20maule@hotmail.com>
Mike=2C my uncle died in my kolb and no one knows what happened except
for
im. Kolbs Are great planes but are very unforgiving. I continue to fly Kol
s only because I know not to get close to that stall speed. I have only ow
ed two Kolbs but I know the limits..this guy was on his first flight=2C
it
s a terrible situation because he didn't know the kolb and it's limits.
aniel
Sent from my iPhoned
On Sep 16=2C 2010=2C at 11:06 PM=2C Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.
com> wr
te:
> >Mike W:
>Have you discussed your findings with the NTSB?
>Maybe your information would help in their investigation and their deter
ination of >the cause of the accident.
>john h
>mkIII
John H=2C
No=2C I haven't=2C but I will be calling them tomorrow. But the fa
ct i
=2C I shared
what little information I dug up=2C and packaged into one concise email
.
The
information I gathered was either reading it in news articles relating to
the
crash (in otherwords...public information)=2C my emails with Scott=2C
jus
prior
to his flight=2C and telephone conversations with a couple of Kolb list
m
mbers.
I'm simply trying to save lives. Do you have a problem with my discus
ion?
Am I supposed to contact that NTSB to show a concern for Kolb pilots?
Mike Welch
=========
=========
=========
=========
________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________
________
ime: 10:01:06 PM PST US
rom: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
ubject: RE: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
ike=2C my uncle died in my kolb and no one knows what happened except fo
r
im. Kolbs Are great planes but are very unforgiving. I continue to fly Kol
s only because I know not to get close to that stall speed. I have only ow
ed two Kolbs but I know the limits..this guy was on his first flight=2C
it
s a terrible situation because he didn't know the kolb and it's limits.
aniel
Daniel=2C
You are exactly right (with your last statement). I am afraid it is pos
s
ble it is as simple as
e may have simply misjudged what he was doing. Of course=2C we will nev
er
know the whole truth now.
It is only my intention to help educate those of us who fly=2C or are
yet
to fly=2C their Kolb aircraft.
rashing and dieing does little good to both the families left behind and
t
e reputation of the aircraft. I
ould like to reduce the damage by analyzing what we know=2C and learn fr
om
our errors. Believe it or
ot=2C there may be people who have a problem with that.
Mike Welch
y condolences regarding your uncle=2C Daniel.
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Message 4
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|
Subject: | Re: Upgrading from current 4.00-6 "Garden" tires. |
Thanks, i just wanted to be sure it was ok/safe to go wider than recommended or
than the width of the rim since there is only 4.00's on there now.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312833#312833
Message 5
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|
Hey All
There has been a lot of good discussion since Scott's tragic accident. My
concern is that it leaves the impression that there is a problem or bad
flight characteristic with our airplanes which there is not.
I'm not a major high time pilot but I have had the opportunity to fly quite
a few different airplanes and none are as good as our Kolbs. Our planes have
tremendous short field capabilities that when fully utilized (flaps and no
power landings) does require a high level of precision. Pilots new to the
Kolb flight characteristics will have problems with these flight
characteristics no matter how skilled they are in other aircraft. Land with
power and stay away from the flaps till you get very good at it. Then very
gradually land with less power OR using more flaps. Don't progress too
quickly. I have a set of fully retracted Kolb landing gear legs that I bent
when I progressed to full flaps and no power way too quickly.
Flight instructors not used to our Kolbs don't train us how to handle our
Kolbs properly/safely. I recently got my check ride with a GA instructor in
my Kolb. I was praised for how well I flew the plane in everything but how I
flew very short final. He felt I rounded out way too low and with too much
airspeed. I think this is a very common mistake that most non
Kolb instructors will make. Let me also explain I did fly a bit faster
approach rounded out lower because my instructor was a good 100 lbs heaver
than anyone I had ever flown in my plane and I was using a very long 2500 ft
grass strip. Yes we were a bit over gross weight.
Rick Neilsen
1st Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
Message 6
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|
--------------------------------------------------
"John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
(09/17/2010 16:35)
> I know nothing of the results of the investigations, but a Kolb in a nose
> high attitude that runs out of airspeed will drop the nose and normally a
> wing....
Especially if it's a new airplane that might not be properly trimmed
out yet.
-Dana
Message 7
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|
Subject: | airspeed indicator calibration |
Kolb guys=2C
I am in the process of installing all the instruments in my MkIII. One o
f the
instruments is an analog airspeed indicator. It's a standard=2C typical ty
pe of indicator that uses
ram air to determine it's reading=2C by way of a pitot tube.
Out of the box=2C I can't imagine it can be very accurate=2C can it? I m
ean=2C everybody will have
their own unique design in installing one of these=2C so I would think that
each installation would
be off a little from someone else's installation. Or=2C are they much more
uniform in their
readings?
I have the exact placement in my panel and the routing of the tubing pret
ty much figured out.
For those guys that have installed an airspeed indicator=2C did you calib
rate it in any way first=2C
or did you just stick it in the plane and live with whatever reading it say
s once you start
flying the plane?
I thought what I would do is essentially build the whole system=2C and ge
t someone to drive
a car down the road=2C with me hanging the A/S indicator's pitot tube out t
he window. While this
may seem somewhat silly=2C at least I could an idea how accurate it might b
e. At least it's a start=2C
right? Has anybody done this?? Or is it a waste of time?
For an instrument that has so much riding on it=2C and if new=2C hasn't r
eally proven itself for
accuracy=2C it seems to me a guy ought to verify in some way it comes "clos
e" to the correct
airspeed.
Any thoughts or experiences would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
Mike Welch
MkIII
Message 8
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|
Subject: | Re: airspeed indicator calibration |
The instrument itself should be quite accurate, but pressure
variations at the pitot and static sources can throw it way off. The
pressure field around a moving car will make any such calibration
meaningless, too. Put it in the plane. You can use your GPS to
calibrate it on a dead calm day, or average readings into and with a
steady wind.
-Dana
--------------------------------------------------
Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com> wrote:
(09/18/2010 18:35)
>
> Kolb guys,
>
> I am in the process of installing all the instruments in my MkIII. One of
the
> instruments is an analog airspeed indicator. It's a standard, typical type of
indicator that uses
> ram air to determine it's reading, by way of a pitot tube.
>
> Out of the box, I can't imagine it can be very accurate, can it? I mean, everybody
will have
> their own unique design in installing one of these, so I would think that each
installation would
> be off a little from someone else's installation. Or, are they much more uniform
in their
> readings?
>
> I have the exact placement in my panel and the routing of the tubing pretty
much figured out.
>
> For those guys that have installed an airspeed indicator, did you calibrate
it in any way first,
> or did you just stick it in the plane and live with whatever reading it says
once you start
> flying the plane?
>
> I thought what I would do is essentially build the whole system, and get someone
to drive
> a car down the road, with me hanging the A/S indicator's pitot tube out the window.
While this
> may seem somewhat silly, at least I could an idea how accurate it might be.
At least it's a start,
> right? Has anybody done this?? Or is it a waste of time?
>
> For an instrument that has so much riding on it, and if new, hasn't really
proven itself for
> accuracy, it seems to me a guy ought to verify in some way it comes "close" to
the correct
> airspeed.
>
> Any thoughts or experiences would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
>
> Mike Welch
> MkIII
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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|
Subject: | Re: airspeed indicator calibration |
IMO, it is almost impossible to calibrate an airspeed indicator unless it is in
the airplane, because of the variables involved in each installation. When we
first flew the FSII, we had screwy airspeed readings, and it turned out we had
two problems: one was with the indicator, the other was the pitot location.
Fixed the location of the pitot, but the numbers were till odd, so tried an experiment.
Strapped a piece of 1 1/2" aluminum tubing onto the roof rack of the Jeep so that
the forward end was ahead of and well above the hood (no bow wave allowed)
and ran a piece of vinyl tubing to the airspeed indicator. Wrote down the numbers
at various speeds, then swapped out the airspeed indicator with another that
was known to be good, did it again, and there was quite a disparity.
But all that did was prove that the original airspeed indicator was bad. Bought
a new one and put it in the airplane and flew it, and compared it to the GPS.
It was good enough that we left it alone.
Wonder if we hurt it in the wreck? Guess we'll find out in a couple months.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312875#312875
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|
Subject: | Re: Here's what I have gathered; |
"The kolb stall is very unforgiving-trust me... "
h20maule, Your statement is incorrect. It should read: "The stall of my kolb
is very unforgiving-trust me... ".
I have never flown your kolb, but I have flown 2 MarkIIIs, 4 firestars and a Kolbra
and none of them had unforgiving stall characteristics. The worst one was
mine when I had the VGs mounted too far back. This was the only kolb I have
flown that had a sharp stall break, but recovery was still quick, straightforward
and uneventful. Moving the VGs forward gave me back my gentle airplane.
Unforgiving is a pretty subjective term. Can you describe what it is about stalls
in your kolb that makes them less than desirable? Maybe there is something
unique about your plane that can be changed to improve its handling?
--------
Roger in Oregon
1992 KXP 503 - N1782C
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312882#312882
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