---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 09/18/10: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:12 AM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Fran Losey) 2. 03:36 AM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (william sullivan) 3. 05:34 AM - Re: Kolb-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 09/16/10 (icrashrc@aol.com) 4. 07:02 AM - Re: Upgrading from current 4.00-6 "Garden" tires. (gotime242) 5. 07:05 AM - Re: Re: kolb stall (Richard Neilsen) 6. 07:16 AM - Re: Re: kolb stall (Dana Hague) 7. 03:41 PM - airspeed indicator calibration (Mike Welch) 8. 05:02 PM - Re: airspeed indicator calibration (Dana Hague) 9. 07:28 PM - Re: airspeed indicator calibration (Richard Pike) 10. 09:27 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (R. Hankins) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:12:52 AM PST US From: Fran Losey Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident On 9/17/2010 12:57 AM, Mike Welch wrote: > Mike, my uncle died in my kolb and no one knows what happened except > for him. Kolbs Are great planes but are very unforgiving. I continue > to fly Kolbs only because I know not to get close to that stall speed. > I have only owned two Kolbs but I know the limits..this guy was on his > first flight, it's a terrible situation because he didn't know the > kolb and it's limits. > Daniel > > Daniel, > You are exactly right (with your last statement). I am afraid it is > possible it is as simple as > he may have simply misjudged what he was doing. Of course, we will > never know the whole truth now. > It is only my intention to help educate those of us who fly, or are > yet to fly, their Kolb aircraft. > Crashing and dieing does little good to both the families left behind > and the reputation of the aircraft. I > would like to reduce the damage by analyzing what we know, and learn > from our errors. Believe it or > not, there may be people who have a problem with that. > Mike Welch > My condolences regarding your uncle, Daniel. > * > > > * Mike and all, Although some bantering seems to occur when sensitive discussions are placed in the forum, I truly appreciate all feedback from all parties, as I feel it refreshes my awareness as a pilot, and allows me to step back for a minute, think about points that are stated, and reflect how I would have handled (or not) such a situation. When this forum stops these healthy (and surely painful) discussions, I will most likely leave it... I am in the middle of building right now, and although I did not know Scott personally, can say I appreciated his contributions on this forum, and felt in my gut he was a person that would give you the shirt off his back, asking nothing in return. Thanks for sharing, and listening. RIP Scott. -- Sincerely, Fran Losey www.mykitlog.com\loseyf ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:36:30 AM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Scott Thompson's accident - I think the current thread on the accident is good for the List.- Con jecture will bring awareness of the peculiarities of the handling of low dr ag, high lift, low weight aircraft.- The NTSB will eventually give the pa rticulars.- Both will be good for all.- I hope someone will maintain Sc ott's web site, as it is an excellent reference.- We all are going to mis s him. - ------------------------- ------------------------- Bill Sullivan ------------------------- ------------------------- -Windsor Locks, Ct. ------------------------- ------------------------- FS 447 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:34:54 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 09/16/10 From: icrashrc@aol.com For those of you who don't know me, I am Scott's wife. I can assure you th at when he was flying around the pattern that he tested the stall speed. He gave me a list of the things he would do on his intial flight. One of those was stall speed. -----Original Message----- From: Kolb-List Digest Server Sent: Fri, Sep 17, 2010 2:57 am Subject: Kolb-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 09/16/10 * ======================== ======================== = Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive ======================== ======================== = Today's complete Kolb-List Digest can also be found in either of the wo Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted n HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes nd Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version f the Kolb-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor uch as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=ht ml&Chapter 10-09-16&Archive=Kolb Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=tx t&Chapter 10-09-16&Archive=Kolb ======================== ======================= EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive ======================== ======================= ---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 09/16/10: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- oday's Message Index: --------------------- 1. 05:51 AM - That pesky ELSA re-registration problem (Richard Girard ) 2. 10:36 AM - Annual Condition Inspection checklist for Kolbra (Ralph B) 3. 11:24 AM - Re: Annual Condition Inspection checklist for Kolbra (R alph ) 4. 11:52 AM - Scott Thompson's accident (Mike Welch) 5. 02:04 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Mike Welch) 6. 02:20 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (PCKing) 7. 02:41 PM - my email address (Mike Welch) 8. 04:51 PM - Here's what I have gathered; (Mike Welch) 9. 05:36 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (ces308) 10. 05:42 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (Ralph B) 11. 07:25 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (PCKing) 12. 07:47 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (John Hauck) 13. 07:56 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (Mike Welch) 14. 08:03 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Daniel Myers) 15. 08:09 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Mike Welch) 16. 09:27 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (Richard Girard) 17. 09:39 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Daniel Myers) 18. 10:01 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Mike Welch) _______________________________ Message 1 ______________________________ _______ ime: 05:51:16 AM PST US ubject: Kolb-List: That pesky ELSA re-registration problem rom: Richard Girard After much thought about how to make it legal to re-register an ELSA that he owner has allowed the registration to expire under the terms of the new ule I sent the following to the applicable FAA personnel this morning. "Dear Sirs, There is a problem with the new rule for triennial e-registration of aircraft when it is applied to experimental light sport ircraft (ELSA) that were registered under the provisions of FAR 21.191 (1). f an owner of an ELSA fails to re-register during the applicable period an d he registration expires there is no legal means to register the aircraft gain. AR 21.191 i(1) expired on January 3, 2008. Form 8050-88A (Affidavit of wnership) that is required to be filed along with 8050-1 to register an LSA has been revised so that the only two options for registering an ELSA re through FAR 21.191 i(2) (aircraft built from a kit of a qualifying pecial light sport aircraft (SLSA)) and FAR 21.190 (essentially for anufacturers who need to register a prototype to do compliance testing of n SLSA). believe there is a simple way to fix this problem. Revise form 8050-88A to nclude an option to the effect, "this aircraft was previously registered as _______ under the provisions of FAR 21.191 i(1) and the paperwork is on ile with the FAA". I believe wording like this or similar would allow an rrant owner to re-register the aircraft following expiration with a minimu m f problems and prevent those who might try to use the provision to registe r n aircraft that had not previously been registered. hank you for your time." I did this after spending a good portion of yesterday morning talking and riting to various officials in the FAA about the problem. It occurred to me ate last night that the easiest way to get something fixed when there is a roblem is to present a solution to those who can remedy it. What the heck, t's worth a try. Rick Girard -- ulu Delta olb Mk IIIC 82 Gray head .00 C gearbox blade WD hanks, Homer GBYM It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unab le o imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong. - G.K. Chesterton ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________ ________ ime: 10:36:54 AM PST US ubject: Kolb-List: Annual Condition Inspection checklist for Kolbra rom: "Ralph B" ravis Brown from Kolb asked it I would post the Annual Condition inspectio n hecklist or the Kolbra. This checklist will work for other Kolbs too. Ralph B -------- alph B riginal Firestar 447 91493 E-AB 000 hours 3 years flying it olbra 912UL 20386 years flying it 20 hrs ead this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312658#312658 ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/annual_inspection_checklist_179.doc _______________________________ Message 3 ______________________________ _______ ime: 11:24:48 AM PST US ubject: Kolb-List: Re: Annual Condition Inspection checklist for Kolbra rom: "Ralph B" fter the inspection is finished, post these words in the aircraft logbook: date I certify this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with the scope nd detail of appendix D to Part 43 and found to be in a condition for safe peration. Flight time: XXX.X hours ame of inspector ert #xxxxxxxx -------- alph B riginal Firestar 447 91493 E-AB 000 hours 3 years flying it olbra 912UL 20386 years flying it 20 hrs ead this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312666#312666 _______________________________ Message 4 ______________________________ _______ ime: 11:52:12 AM PST US rom: Mike Welch ubject: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident olb guys=2C I have tried to find out exactly what happened to cause Scott's fatal cr a h. hy? Because it matters a HELL of a lot to me!! At first=2C I thought I'd share what 've found with the entire list=2C then=2C I thought someone may gripe abou it. So=2C if anyone wants to know some of the details about what happened =2C ncluding hat Scott and I discussed a few days prior to his maiden flight=2C email m off he Kolb list=2C and I will share with you what I have found out. Mike Welch ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________ ________ ime: 02:04:08 PM PST US rom: Mike Welch ubject: RE: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident ist members=2C I've had a few guys check in=2C but I'm waiting a little while for few more before we get the conversation going. The primary reason is for the 'off-list' discussion is I can picture omeone asking me "who the hell do you think you are.....?" Me? Nobody. ust a friend of Scott's that would like to figure out what happened=2C hat's all. I sick and damn tired of hearing about my Kolb buddies ieing. I'd like to find out why they died...and do my best not to repeat heir 'mistakes'=2C without trying to pass judgement on them. Mike Welch ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________ ________ ime: 02:20:48 PM PST US rom: "PCKing" ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident ike, You may not have received many offline requests because everyone on the ist doesn't have your email address. I met Scott at AirVenture this year. We spoke about where to source ileron and flap control seals. I was sad to hear that he'd passed away est flying something he was so proud of. I'd like to know what happened. Peter C. King c.king@comcast.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Welch To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 5:00 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident List members, I've had a few guys check in, but I'm waiting a little while for a few more before we get the conversation going. The primary reason is for the 'off-list' discussion is I can picture someone asking me "who the hell do you think you are.....?" Me? obody. Just a friend of Scott's that would like to figure out what happened, that's all. I sick and damn tired of hearing about my Kolb buddies dieing. I'd like to find out why they died...and do my best not to epeat their 'mistakes', without trying to pass judgement on them. Mike Welch _______________________________ Message 7 ______________________________ _______ ime: 02:41:30 PM PST US rom: Mike Welch ubject: Kolb-List: my email address y email address is=3B mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com (don't forget the '7'!! !) Mike Welch ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________ ________ ime: 04:51:45 PM PST US rom: Mike Welch ubject: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered; ist members=2C I have had many members ask me to bring this subject mat te out in the pen. Plus=2C there are way too many people now=2C for me to reply to. (a proaching 30+) ere is what I have this far!! My initial thought was to discuss Scott's accident openly with this list 2C but then I thought 'd be criticized by someone for acting like an investigator. Well=2C I' m OT an investigator=2C ut I certainly am curious about the facts that caused Scott's death=2C esp cially since I do ot want to duplicate them. Then=2C I thought maybe the subject would be best discussed privately bet een those only ho show an interest. Last count=2C I've had about 14 responders=2C so may e we should just ring this out in the open. (I had the same concern regarding John Ratcliffe's accident a few months go. Yet=2C I didn't ay anything=2C and John was soon forgotten=2C it appears. I did some chec ing on his situation=2C nd it seems he must have stalled near turning base to final=2C and nosed i in.) With regard to Scott=2C here is what I have found out. This is by NO me ns any kind of official eport=2C nor do I profess to have all the answers. Additionally=2C I acce t any and all new information hat may correct anything that I may misstate. A few days before Scott made his intitial flight=2C I asked him where he ad his main wing's and is h. stabilizers set at (since the Oshkosh photos made the h.s. look like they were too high) is answer to me was " the main wing is set at where Bryan (@ Kolb Aircraft told him to set them." e went on to say "the h. stabilizers are set like the factory recommends 2C but after he's flown or awhile=2C he can adjust that setting later. (I wish!!) So=2C at this point=2C as far as I know=2C he had the wing incidenc es and hor. stabilizers incidences set ccording to the factory recommended locations! Next=2C when I read one of the news reports from one of the local new s s urces=2C I saw where they aid "according to the initial investigators=2C there didn't 'appear' to be anything wrong with the irplane. That would seem to make sense=2C knowing what a perfectionist Sc tt was. The weather was basically calm=2C although at 8:00pm=2C when the acc ident happened=2C twilight was etting. Light=2C however=2C is NOT likely to be a factor. From discussing this situation with 'others'=2C I have been told Scott ha some introductory flights n a MkIII. Most likely=2C Scott would not have flown solo during this int oductory flight. In one of the news articles=2C it mentioned Scott got his Sport Pilot li ense last year. This would ndicate he probably didn't have a lot of flying time=2C especially when yo consider he was spending lot of time trying to finish building his plane! Scott was=2C you coul d ay=2C 'a low-time' pilot. So=2C up to this point=2C the plane itself=2C the weather=2C the lighting 2C and the wing's incidences=2C don't appear o have caused the accident. What's left?? According to Carol=3B Scott took off and flew around a cou le of times=2C and when he came n to land=2C it just nose-dived in. It landed initially on the pacemen t 2C but continued to tumble onto the rass. What does this tell us? If Carol is complete in her description=2C and a l Scott did was "fly around a ouple of times" =2C and then try to land=2C this tells us he did NOT climb to altitude and explore the plane's lying parameters. It primarily tells us he did not find out the plane's E ACT stall speed=2C and now we'll ever know! With the fact that Scott was=3B ) a low-time pilot=2C and ) flying a plane that he may not have known the stall speed of ) the mishap occurred at the runway threshold=2C coming in for his 1st lan ing I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final=2C where it nose -di ed into the runway=2C and rolled. If these events are indeed accurate and correct=2C I am very sad=2C becau e they seem to be so avoidable. will miss Scott. I'm am sorry he misjudged the situation=2C and let it g t out of control (if these facts re accurate). Training=2C people=2C training!! Having crashed an ultralight simil ar to these circumstances=2C all I can say s these accidents can be avoided=2C or at least minimized with proper fl ig t education. These are the facts as I've been able to acertain. If anyone knows more 2C please share it with us. f I've mistated something=2C please correct the record. Best regards to all=2C ike Welch ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________ ________ ime: 05:36:35 PM PST US ubject: Kolb-List: Re: Here's what I have gathered; rom: "ces308" hank you Mike, I am sorry for Scott,but it does appear he made a terrible mistake,however ,It's ice to here there doesn't appear to have been a fault of the aircraft. These are fun airplanes to fly,but to an even greater degree because of th ere ack f weight to keep things going,you need to be very aware of your airspeed n final...where my 172 flies right through a wind gust,my M3X will stop fl ying nd you can never forget that. Thanks again for the information...every one CAN learn from this ,if they isten. chris ambrose 3X/Jabiru 150.3 hrs 2500. total 327CS ead this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312697#312697 _______________________________ Message 10 _____________________________ _______ ime: 05:42:23 PM PST US ubject: Kolb-List: Re: Here's what I have gathered; rom: "Ralph B" ike, I'm not an accident investigator either, but I do know that many fata l ccidents ccur due to stall-spins on landing. I was once told, "If there is any ne thing to remember about flying, it's airspeed". This is especially true upon anding. It would be better to come in hot and use up runway than to bend p your airplane or hurt yourself. It's a fine line sometimes to slow it up or o off the end of a short runway. I tend to keep more speed than most pilot s nd maybe this has saved me a few times. Kolb's, like other light aircraft have ore built-in drag than heavy and clean ones. They tend to lose speed more uickly. his means keeping the power on and nose down until it's on the ground. t's all about speed. Without that, the wings don't lift. Ralph B -------- alph B riginal Firestar 447 91493 E-AB 000 hours 3 years flying it olbra 912UL 20386 years flying it 20 hrs ead this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312698#312698 _______________________________ Message 11 _____________________________ _______ ime: 07:25:38 PM PST US rom: "PCKing" ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered; Mike, Thank you. Brian Carpenter (Rainbow Aviation) just did a webinar titled "GA to LSA: ake a Safe Transition" He makes a compelling case for maintaining irspeed on final because of the low mass and high drag of the fat ltralight LSAs. He describes them as a cotton ball compared to the GA olf ball. The highest percentage of LSA accidents occur with GA pilots t the stick. The webinar is archived at http://www.eaavideo.org/channel.aspx?ch=ch_webinars Peter C. King ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Welch To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 7:48 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered; List members, I have had many members ask me to bring this subject atter out in the open. Plus, there are way too many people now, for me to reply to. approaching 30+) Here is what I have this far!! My initial thought was to discuss Scott's accident openly with this ist, but then I thought I'd be criticized by someone for acting like an investigator. Well, 'm NOT an investigator, but I certainly am curious about the facts that caused Scott's death, specially since I do not want to duplicate them. Then, I thought maybe the subject would be best discussed privately etween those only who show an interest. Last count, I've had about 14 responders, so aybe we should just bring this out in the open. (I had the same concern regarding John Ratcliffe's accident a few onths ago. Yet, I didn't say anything, and John was soon forgotten, it appears. I did some hecking on his situation, and it seems he must have stalled near turning base to final, and osed it in.) With regard to Scott, here is what I have found out. This is by NO eans any kind of official report, nor do I profess to have all the answers. Additionally, I ccept any and all new information that may correct anything that I may misstate. A few days before Scott made his intitial flight, I asked him where e had his main wing's and his h. stabilizers set at (since the Oshkosh photos made the h.s. look ike they were too high) His answer to me was " the main wing is set at where Bryan (@ Kolb ircraft) told him to set them." He went on to say "the h. stabilizers are set like the factory ecommends, but after he's flown for awhile, he can adjust that setting later. (I wish!!) So, at this point, as far as I know, he had the wing incidences and or. stabilizers incidences set according to the factory recommended locations! Next, when I read one of the news reports from one of the local ews sources, I saw where they said "according to the initial investigators, there didn't 'appear' to e anything wrong with the airplane. That would seem to make sense, knowing what a perfectionist cott was. The weather was basically calm, although at 8:00pm, when the ccident happened, twilight was setting. Light, however, is NOT likely to be a factor. From discussing this situation with 'others', I have been told Scott ad some introductory flights in a MkIII. Most likely, Scott would not have flown solo during this ntroductory flight. In one of the news articles, it mentioned Scott got his Sport Pilot icense last year. This would indicate he probably didn't have a lot of flying time, especially when ou consider he was spending a lot of time trying to finish building his plane! Scott was, you ould say, 'a low-time' pilot. So, up to this point, the plane itself, the weather, the lighting, nd the wing's incidences, don't appear to have caused the accident. What's left?? According to Carol; Scott took off and flew around a ouple of times, and when he came in to land, it just nose-dived in. It landed initially on the acement, but continued to tumble onto the grass. What does this tell us? If Carol is complete in her description, nd all Scott did was "fly around a couple of times" , and then try to land, this tells us he did NOT limb to altitude and explore the plane's flying parameters. It primarily tells us he did not find out the lane's EXACT stall speed, and now we'll never know! With the fact that Scott was; A) a low-time pilot, and B) flying a plane that he may not have known the stall speed of C) the mishap occurred at the runway threshold, coming in for his 1st anding I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final, where it ose-dived into the runway, and rolled. If these events are indeed accurate and correct, I am very sad, ecause they seem to be so avoidable. I will miss Scott. I'm am sorry he misjudged the situation, and let t get out of control (if these facts are accurate). Training, people, training!! Having crashed an ultralight similar o these circumstances, all I can say is these accidents can be avoided, or at least minimized with proper light education. These are the facts as I've been able to acertain. If anyone knows ore, please share it with us. If I've mistated something, please correct the record. Best regards to all, Mike Welch _______________________________ Message 12 _____________________________ _______ ime: 07:47:04 PM PST US rom: "John Hauck" ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident Mike W: Have you discussed your findings with the NTSB? Maybe your information would help in their investigation and their etermination of the cause of the accident. john h kIII ock House, OR I have tried to find out exactly what happened to cause Scott's atal crash. Why? Because it matters a HELL of a lot to me!! At first, I thought 'd share what I've found with the entire list, then, I thought someone may gripe bout it. So, if anyone wants to know some of the details about what happened, ncluding what Scott and I discussed a few days prior to his maiden flight, mail me off the Kolb list, and I will share with you what I have found out. Mike Welch ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________ ________ ime: 07:56:23 PM PST US rom: Mike Welch ubject: RE: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered; eter=2C Certainly there is no disputing that some GA pilots do seem to have trou b e ransitioning from the factory iron to the lighter=2C less mass SLA or li gh planes. However=2C in Scott's case=2C I'm afraid that "transitioning" wasn't the ssue=2C because ince he only got his Sport Pilot license last year=2C he couldn't have had very many ours in GA airplanes. At least=2C that's what I'm led to believe. Additionally=2C Carol described him as 'coming in for a landing' and th en he sort of nose-dived". This scenario is much more indicative of an approach-to-land ng- tall=2C rather than the typical GA to LSA failure to handle the mass dif fe ences etween the two (at touchdown). Airspeed is one thing you cannot ignor when flying an airplane=2C lest th ground ise up and smite thee!!! Mike Welch ike=2C Thank you. Brian Carpenter (Rainbow Aviation) just did a webinar titled "GA to LSA: Ma e a Safe Transition" He makes a compelling case for maintaining airspeed o final because of the low mass and high drag of the fat ultralight LSAs. H describes them as a cotton ball compared to the GA golf ball. The highest percentage of LSA accidents occur with GA pilots at the stick. The webinar is archived at http://www.eaavideo.org/channel.aspx?ch=ch_webinars Peter C. King ---- Original Message ----- rom: Mike Welch ent: Thursday=2C September 16=2C 2010 7:48 PM ubject: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered=3B List members=2C I have had many members ask me to bring this subject ma tte out in the pen. Plus=2C there are way too many people now=2C for me to reply to. (a proaching 30+) ere is what I have this far!! My initial thought was to discuss Scott's accident openly with this list 2C but then I thought 'd be criticized by someone for acting like an investigator. Well=2C I' m OT an investigator=2C ut I certainly am curious about the facts that caused Scott's death=2C esp cially since I do ot want to duplicate them. Then=2C I thought maybe the subject would be best discussed privately bet een those only ho show an interest. Last count=2C I've had about 14 responders=2C so may e we should just ring this out in the open. (I had the same concern regarding John Ratcliffe's accident a few months go. Yet=2C I didn't ay anything=2C and John was soon forgotten=2C it appears. I did some chec ing on his situation=2C nd it seems he must have stalled near turning base to final=2C and nosed i in.) With regard to Scott=2C here is what I have found out. This is by NO me ns any kind of official eport=2C nor do I profess to have all the answers. Additionally=2C I acce t any and all new information hat may correct anything that I may misstate. A few days before Scott made his intitial flight=2C I asked him where he ad his main wing's and is h. stabilizers set at (since the Oshkosh photos made the h.s. look like they were too high) is answer to me was " the main wing is set at where Bryan (@ Kolb Aircraft told him to set them." e went on to say "the h. stabilizers are set like the factory recommends 2C but after he's flown or awhile=2C he can adjust that setting later. (I wish!!) So=2C at this point=2C as far as I know=2C he had the wing incidenc es and hor. stabilizers incidences set ccording to the factory recommended locations! Next=2C when I read one of the news reports from one of the local new s s urces=2C I saw where they aid "according to the initial investigators=2C there didn't 'appear' to be anything wrong with the irplane. That would seem to make sense=2C knowing what a perfectionist Sc tt was. The weather was basically calm=2C although at 8:00pm=2C when the acc ident happened=2C twilight was etting. Light=2C however=2C is NOT likely to be a factor. From discussing this situation with 'others'=2C I have been told Scott ha some introductory flights n a MkIII. Most likely=2C Scott would not have flown solo during this int oductory flight. In one of the news articles=2C it mentioned Scott got his Sport Pilot li ense last year. This would ndicate he probably didn't have a lot of flying time=2C especially when yo consider he was spending lot of time trying to finish building his plane! Scott was=2C you coul d ay=2C 'a low-time' pilot. So=2C up to this point=2C the plane itself=2C the weather=2C the lighting 2C and the wing's incidences=2C don't appear o have caused the accident. What's left?? According to Carol=3B Scott took off and flew around a cou le of times=2C and when he came n to land=2C it just nose-dived in. It landed initially on the pacemen t 2C but continued to tumble onto the rass. What does this tell us? If Carol is complete in her description=2C and a l Scott did was "fly around a ouple of times" =2C and then try to land=2C this tells us he did NOT climb to altitude and explore the plane's lying parameters. It primarily tells us he did not find out the plane's E ACT stall speed=2C and now we'll ever know! With the fact that Scott was=3B ) a low-time pilot=2C and ) flying a plane that he may not have known the stall speed of ) the mishap occurred at the runway threshold=2C coming in for his 1st lan ing I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final=2C where it nose -di ed into the runway=2C and rolled. If these events are indeed accurate and correct=2C I am very sad=2C becau e they seem to be so avoidable. will miss Scott. I'm am sorry he misjudged the situation=2C and let it g t out of control (if these facts re accurate). Training=2C people=2C training!! Having crashed an ultralight simil ar to these circumstances=2C all I can say s these accidents can be avoided=2C or at least minimized with proper fl ig t education. These are the facts as I've been able to acertain. If anyone knows more 2C please share it with us. f I've mistated something=2C please correct the record. Best regards to all=2C ike Welch ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics. om/Navigator?Kolb-List ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________ ________ ime: 08:03:33 PM PST US ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident rom: Daniel Myers Class move John I like it aniel Sent from my iPhone On Sep 16=2C 2010=2C at 3:23 PM=2C "John Hauck" wrot : > Mike W: Have you discussed your findings with the NTSB? Maybe your information would help in their investigation and their determ nation of the cause of the accident. john h mkIII Rock House=2C OR I have tried to find out exactly what happened to cause Scott's fatal rash. Why? Because it matters a HELL of a lot to me!! At first=2C I thought I d share what I've found with the entire list=2C then=2C I thought someone may grip e ab ut it. So=2C if anyone wants to know some of the details about what happened 2C including what Scott and I discussed a few days prior to his maiden flight=2C ema il me off the Kolb list=2C and I will share with you what I have found out. Mike Welch ========= ========= ========= ========= ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________ ________ ime: 08:09:48 PM PST US rom: Mike Welch ubject: RE: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident Mike W: >Have you discussed your findings with the NTSB? >Maybe your information would help in their investigation and their determ i ation of >the cause of the accident. >john h mkIII John H=2C No=2C I haven't=2C but I will be calling them tomorrow. But the fac t is 2C I shared hat little information I dug up=2C and packaged into one concise email. T e nformation I gathered was either reading it in news articles relating to t e rash (in otherwords...public information)=2C my emails with Scott=2C just rior o his flight=2C and telephone conversations with a couple of Kolb list mem ers. I'm simply trying to save lives. Do you have a problem with my discuss i n? m I supposed to contact that NTSB to show a concern for Kolb pilots? Mike Welch ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________ ________ ime: 09:27:32 PM PST US ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered; rom: Richard Girard Whoa! Let's get something straight. Gusts and wind affect glide path and round speed, not airspeed. The danger is inexperienced pilots who get ixated on a point and pull back on the stick in an effort to maintain glid e oward that point. The only thing that counts is airspeed, period. s I told Mike when we talked on Sunday, I have a mantra that goes on in my ead, and sometimes out loud, from the moment I pull power back from cruise o set up an approach. It's just two words, Hold 50. If you watched the ideo I made about the sight picture as it changes for flap settings, you an hear me over the sound of the 582 saying, "turning final, HOLD 50". It' s y choice of approach airspeed for my Mk III based upon the stall speeds I ocumented. It makes absolutely no difference if I hold some power in eserve or close the throttle completely, it's HOLD 50 and it stays HOLD 50 ntil I pull back on the stick to round out and let her settle to the round. If I'm a little too high on approach, which I actually prefer, I ca n lip Zulu Delta to lose altitude a little faster, and I still HOLD 50. Rick Girard On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 9:18 PM, PCKing wrote: > Mike, Thank you. Brian Carpenter (Rainbow Aviation) just did a webinar titled "GA to LSA: Make a Safe Transition" He makes a compelling case for maintaining airspe ed on final because of the low mass and high drag of the fat ultralight LSAs .. He describes them as a cotton ball compared to the GA golf ball. The high est percentage of LSA accidents occur with GA pilots at the stick. The webinar is archived at http://www.eaavideo.org/channel.aspx?ch=ch_webinars Peter C. King ----- Original Message ----- *From:* Mike Welch *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com *Sent:* Thursday, September 16, 2010 7:48 PM *Subject:* Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered; List members, I have had many members ask me to bring this subject matte r out in the open. Plus, there are way too many people now, for me to reply to. (approaching 30+) Here is what I have this far!! My initial thought was to discuss Scott's accident openly with this list, but then I thought I'd be criticized by someone for acting like an investigator. Well, I'm NOT an investigator, but I certainly am curious about the facts that caused Scott's death, especially since I do not want to duplicate them. Then, I thought maybe the subject would be best discussed privately between those only who show an interest. Last count, I've had about 14 responders, so maybe we should just bring this out in the open. (I had the same concern regarding John Ratcliffe's accident a few month s ago. Yet, I didn't say anything, and John was soon forgotten, it appears. I did some checki ng on his situation, and it seems he must have stalled near turning base to final, and nosed it in.) With regard to Scott, here is what I have found out. This is by NO means any kind of official report, nor do I profess to have all the answers. Additionally, I accept any and all new information that may correct anything that I may misstate. A few days before Scott made his intitial flight, I asked him where he had his main wing's and his h. stabilizers set at (since the Oshkosh photos made the h.s. look li ke they were too high) His answer to me was " the main wing is set at where Bryan (@ Kolb Aircraft) told him to set them." He went on to say "the h. stabilizers are set like the factory recommends , but after he's flown for awhile, he can adjust that setting later. (I wish!!) So, at this point, as far as I know, he had the wing incidences and hor .. stabilizers incidences set according to the factory recommended locations! Next, when I read one of the news reports from one of the local news sources, I saw where they said "according to the initial investigators, there didn't 'appear' to be anything wrong with the airplane. That would seem to make sense, knowing what a perfectionist Scott was. The weather was basically calm, although at 8:00pm, when the accident happened, twilight was setting. Light, however, is NOT likely to be a factor. From discussing this situation with 'others', I have been told Scott ha d some introductory flights in a MkIII. Most likely, Scott would not have flown solo during this introductory flight. In one of the news articles, it mentioned Scott got his Sport Pilot license last year. This would indicate he probably didn't have a lot of flying time, especially when yo u consider he was spending a lot of time trying to finish building his plane! Scott was, you could say, 'a low-time' pilot. So, up to this point, the plane itself, the weather, the lighting, and the wing's incidences, don't appear to have caused the accident. What's left?? According to Carol; Scott took off and flew around a couple of times, and when he came in to land, it just nose-dived in. It landed initially on the pacement, but continued to tumble onto the grass. What does this tell us? If Carol is complete in her description, and all Scott did was "fly around a couple of times" , and then try to land, this tells us he did NOT climb to altitude and explore the plane's flying parameters. It primarily tells us he did not find out the plane's EXACT stall speed, and now we'll never know! With the fact that Scott was; A) a low-time pilot, and B) flying a plane that he may not have known the stall speed of C) the mishap occurred at the runway threshold, coming in for his 1st landing I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final, where it nose-dived into the runway, and rolled. If these events are indeed accurate and correct, I am very sad, because they seem to be so avoidable. I will miss Scott. I'm am sorry he misjudged the situation, and let it get out of control (if these facts are accurate). Training, people, training!! Having crashed an ultralight similar to these circumstances, all I can say is these accidents can be avoided, or at least minimized with proper flig ht education. These are the facts as I've been able to acertain. If anyone knows mor e, please share it with us. If I've mistated something, please correct the record. Best regards to all, Mike Welch * href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c * * * - ulu Delta olb Mk IIIC 82 Gray head .00 C gearbox blade WD hanks, Homer GBYM It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unab le o imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong. - G.K. Chesterton ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________ ________ ime: 09:39:45 PM PST US ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident rom: Daniel Myers Mike=2C my uncle died in my kolb and no one knows what happened except for im. Kolbs Are great planes but are very unforgiving. I continue to fly Kol s only because I know not to get close to that stall speed. I have only ow ed two Kolbs but I know the limits..this guy was on his first flight=2C it s a terrible situation because he didn't know the kolb and it's limits. aniel Sent from my iPhoned On Sep 16=2C 2010=2C at 11:06 PM=2C Mike Welch wr te: > >Mike W: >Have you discussed your findings with the NTSB? >Maybe your information would help in their investigation and their deter ination of >the cause of the accident. >john h >mkIII John H=2C No=2C I haven't=2C but I will be calling them tomorrow. But the fa ct i =2C I shared what little information I dug up=2C and packaged into one concise email . The information I gathered was either reading it in news articles relating to the crash (in otherwords...public information)=2C my emails with Scott=2C jus prior to his flight=2C and telephone conversations with a couple of Kolb list m mbers. I'm simply trying to save lives. Do you have a problem with my discus ion? Am I supposed to contact that NTSB to show a concern for Kolb pilots? Mike Welch ========= ========= ========= ========= ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________ ________ ime: 10:01:06 PM PST US rom: Mike Welch ubject: RE: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident ike=2C my uncle died in my kolb and no one knows what happened except fo r im. Kolbs Are great planes but are very unforgiving. I continue to fly Kol s only because I know not to get close to that stall speed. I have only ow ed two Kolbs but I know the limits..this guy was on his first flight=2C it s a terrible situation because he didn't know the kolb and it's limits. aniel Daniel=2C You are exactly right (with your last statement). I am afraid it is pos s ble it is as simple as e may have simply misjudged what he was doing. Of course=2C we will nev er know the whole truth now. It is only my intention to help educate those of us who fly=2C or are yet to fly=2C their Kolb aircraft. rashing and dieing does little good to both the families left behind and t e reputation of the aircraft. I ould like to reduce the damage by analyzing what we know=2C and learn fr om our errors. Believe it or ot=2C there may be people who have a problem with that. Mike Welch y condolences regarding your uncle=2C Daniel. -======================== ======================== =========== -= - The Kolb-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:30 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Upgrading from current 4.00-6 "Garden" tires. From: "gotime242" Thanks, i just wanted to be sure it was ok/safe to go wider than recommended or than the width of the rim since there is only 4.00's on there now. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312833#312833 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:19 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: kolb stall From: Richard Neilsen Hey All There has been a lot of good discussion since Scott's tragic accident. My concern is that it leaves the impression that there is a problem or bad flight characteristic with our airplanes which there is not. I'm not a major high time pilot but I have had the opportunity to fly quite a few different airplanes and none are as good as our Kolbs. Our planes have tremendous short field capabilities that when fully utilized (flaps and no power landings) does require a high level of precision. Pilots new to the Kolb flight characteristics will have problems with these flight characteristics no matter how skilled they are in other aircraft. Land with power and stay away from the flaps till you get very good at it. Then very gradually land with less power OR using more flaps. Don't progress too quickly. I have a set of fully retracted Kolb landing gear legs that I bent when I progressed to full flaps and no power way too quickly. Flight instructors not used to our Kolbs don't train us how to handle our Kolbs properly/safely. I recently got my check ride with a GA instructor in my Kolb. I was praised for how well I flew the plane in everything but how I flew very short final. He felt I rounded out way too low and with too much airspeed. I think this is a very common mistake that most non Kolb instructors will make. Let me also explain I did fly a bit faster approach rounded out lower because my instructor was a good 100 lbs heaver than anyone I had ever flown in my plane and I was using a very long 2500 ft grass strip. Yes we were a bit over gross weight. Rick Neilsen 1st Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:16:39 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: kolb stall -------------------------------------------------- "John Hauck" wrote: (09/17/2010 16:35) > I know nothing of the results of the investigations, but a Kolb in a nose > high attitude that runs out of airspeed will drop the nose and normally a > wing.... Especially if it's a new airplane that might not be properly trimmed out yet. -Dana ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:41:04 PM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: Kolb-List: airspeed indicator calibration Kolb guys=2C I am in the process of installing all the instruments in my MkIII. One o f the instruments is an analog airspeed indicator. It's a standard=2C typical ty pe of indicator that uses ram air to determine it's reading=2C by way of a pitot tube. Out of the box=2C I can't imagine it can be very accurate=2C can it? I m ean=2C everybody will have their own unique design in installing one of these=2C so I would think that each installation would be off a little from someone else's installation. Or=2C are they much more uniform in their readings? I have the exact placement in my panel and the routing of the tubing pret ty much figured out. For those guys that have installed an airspeed indicator=2C did you calib rate it in any way first=2C or did you just stick it in the plane and live with whatever reading it say s once you start flying the plane? I thought what I would do is essentially build the whole system=2C and ge t someone to drive a car down the road=2C with me hanging the A/S indicator's pitot tube out t he window. While this may seem somewhat silly=2C at least I could an idea how accurate it might b e. At least it's a start=2C right? Has anybody done this?? Or is it a waste of time? For an instrument that has so much riding on it=2C and if new=2C hasn't r eally proven itself for accuracy=2C it seems to me a guy ought to verify in some way it comes "clos e" to the correct airspeed. Any thoughts or experiences would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Mike Welch MkIII ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:02:46 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: airspeed indicator calibration The instrument itself should be quite accurate, but pressure variations at the pitot and static sources can throw it way off. The pressure field around a moving car will make any such calibration meaningless, too. Put it in the plane. You can use your GPS to calibrate it on a dead calm day, or average readings into and with a steady wind. -Dana -------------------------------------------------- Mike Welch wrote: (09/18/2010 18:35) > > Kolb guys, > > I am in the process of installing all the instruments in my MkIII. One of the > instruments is an analog airspeed indicator. It's a standard, typical type of indicator that uses > ram air to determine it's reading, by way of a pitot tube. > > Out of the box, I can't imagine it can be very accurate, can it? I mean, everybody will have > their own unique design in installing one of these, so I would think that each installation would > be off a little from someone else's installation. Or, are they much more uniform in their > readings? > > I have the exact placement in my panel and the routing of the tubing pretty much figured out. > > For those guys that have installed an airspeed indicator, did you calibrate it in any way first, > or did you just stick it in the plane and live with whatever reading it says once you start > flying the plane? > > I thought what I would do is essentially build the whole system, and get someone to drive > a car down the road, with me hanging the A/S indicator's pitot tube out the window. While this > may seem somewhat silly, at least I could an idea how accurate it might be. At least it's a start, > right? Has anybody done this?? Or is it a waste of time? > > For an instrument that has so much riding on it, and if new, hasn't really proven itself for > accuracy, it seems to me a guy ought to verify in some way it comes "close" to the correct > airspeed. > > Any thoughts or experiences would be greatly appreciated. Thanks > > Mike Welch > MkIII > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:28:51 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: airspeed indicator calibration From: "Richard Pike" IMO, it is almost impossible to calibrate an airspeed indicator unless it is in the airplane, because of the variables involved in each installation. When we first flew the FSII, we had screwy airspeed readings, and it turned out we had two problems: one was with the indicator, the other was the pitot location. Fixed the location of the pitot, but the numbers were till odd, so tried an experiment. Strapped a piece of 1 1/2" aluminum tubing onto the roof rack of the Jeep so that the forward end was ahead of and well above the hood (no bow wave allowed) and ran a piece of vinyl tubing to the airspeed indicator. Wrote down the numbers at various speeds, then swapped out the airspeed indicator with another that was known to be good, did it again, and there was quite a disparity. But all that did was prove that the original airspeed indicator was bad. Bought a new one and put it in the airplane and flew it, and compared it to the GPS. It was good enough that we left it alone. Wonder if we hurt it in the wreck? Guess we'll find out in a couple months. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312875#312875 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:27:46 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Here's what I have gathered; From: "R. Hankins" "The kolb stall is very unforgiving-trust me... " h20maule, Your statement is incorrect. It should read: "The stall of my kolb is very unforgiving-trust me... ". I have never flown your kolb, but I have flown 2 MarkIIIs, 4 firestars and a Kolbra and none of them had unforgiving stall characteristics. The worst one was mine when I had the VGs mounted too far back. This was the only kolb I have flown that had a sharp stall break, but recovery was still quick, straightforward and uneventful. Moving the VGs forward gave me back my gentle airplane. Unforgiving is a pretty subjective term. Can you describe what it is about stalls in your kolb that makes them less than desirable? Maybe there is something unique about your plane that can be changed to improve its handling? -------- Roger in Oregon 1992 KXP 503 - N1782C Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312882#312882 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.