Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:55 AM - Re: Kolb-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 09/18/10 (Go Flying)
2. 03:55 AM - Re: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 09/18/10 (Richard Girard)
3. 04:13 AM - Re: airspeed indicator calibration (Thom Riddle)
4. 06:24 AM - Re: Re: airspeed indicator calibration (robert bean)
5. 07:51 AM - Re: airspeed indicator calibration (olendorf)
6. 08:05 AM - Simple Info (John Hauck)
7. 08:13 AM - Re: Re: airspeed indicator calibration (John Hauck)
8. 08:28 AM - Re: Re: kolb stall (Jack B. Hart)
9. 08:34 AM - Re: Any KOLBs in South Florida? (gotime242)
10. 08:45 AM - Re: Re: airspeed indicator calibration (Mike Welch)
11. 08:45 AM - Re: Airspeed indicator calibration (william sullivan)
12. 09:11 AM - Re: Re: airspeed indicator calibration (John Hauck)
13. 09:40 AM - Re: Re: airspeed indicator calibration (robert bean)
14. 09:51 AM - Re: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 09/18/10 (chris davis)
15. 10:23 AM - Re: Re: Any KOLBs in South Florida? (Fran Losey)
16. 12:02 PM - Rock House 2010 (John Hauck)
17. 01:27 PM - Re: Re: Any KOLBs in South Florida? (zeprep251@aol.com)
18. 02:12 PM - Re: airspeed indicator calibration (Ron Hoyt)
19. 02:49 PM - Rock House 2010 (John Hauck)
20. 02:55 PM - Re: Rock House 2010 (william sullivan)
21. 03:28 PM - Re: Re: Rock House 2010 (russ kinne)
22. 03:51 PM - Re: Re: kolb stall (gtaylor)
23. 03:56 PM - Re: Any KOLBs in South Florida? (Watkinsdw)
24. 04:03 PM - Re: Kolb stall (william sullivan)
25. 04:09 PM - Re: Re: kolb stall (Jack B. Hart)
26. 05:29 PM - Re: Any KOLBs in South Florida? (gotime242)
27. 05:34 PM - Re: Re: kolb stall (russ kinne)
28. 06:42 PM - Re: airspeed indicator calibration (Richard Pike)
29. 08:40 PM - Re: Any KOLBs in South Florida? (JetPilot)
30. 09:10 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (JetPilot)
31. 11:01 PM - Re: Re: kolb stall (gtaylor)
Message 1
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Subject: | RE: Kolb-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 09/18/10 |
I have decided to unsubscribe to the Matronics lists, there is nearly no
traffic and no content to red.
Chris Norman, CEO
www.digitalrealitycorp.com
owner www.goflying.co
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kolb-List Digest
Server
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 1:58 AM
Subject: Kolb-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 09/18/10
*
=================================================
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
=================================================
Today's complete Kolb-List Digest can also be found in either of the
two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
of the Kolb-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
such as Notepad or with a web browser.
HTML Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter
10-09-18&Archive=Kolb
Text Version:
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2010-09-18&Archive=Kolb
===============================================
EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
===============================================
----------------------------------------------------------
Kolb-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Sat 09/18/10: 10
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:12 AM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Fran Losey)
2. 03:36 AM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (william sullivan)
3. 05:34 AM - Re: Kolb-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 09/16/10
(icrashrc@aol.com)
4. 07:02 AM - Re: Upgrading from current 4.00-6 "Garden" tires.
(gotime242)
5. 07:05 AM - Re: Re: kolb stall (Richard Neilsen)
6. 07:16 AM - Re: Re: kolb stall (Dana Hague)
7. 03:41 PM - airspeed indicator calibration (Mike Welch)
8. 05:02 PM - Re: airspeed indicator calibration (Dana Hague)
9. 07:28 PM - Re: airspeed indicator calibration (Richard Pike)
10. 09:27 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (R. Hankins)
________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
Time: 03:12:52 AM PST US
From: Fran Losey <loseyf@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
On 9/17/2010 12:57 AM, Mike Welch wrote:
> Mike, my uncle died in my kolb and no one knows what happened except
> for him. Kolbs Are great planes but are very unforgiving. I continue
> to fly Kolbs only because I know not to get close to that stall speed.
> I have only owned two Kolbs but I know the limits..this guy was on his
> first flight, it's a terrible situation because he didn't know the
> kolb and it's limits.
> Daniel
>
> Daniel,
> You are exactly right (with your last statement). I am afraid it is
> possible it is as simple as
> he may have simply misjudged what he was doing. Of course, we will
> never know the whole truth now.
> It is only my intention to help educate those of us who fly, or are
> yet to fly, their Kolb aircraft.
> Crashing and dieing does little good to both the families left behind
> and the reputation of the aircraft. I
> would like to reduce the damage by analyzing what we know, and learn
> from our errors. Believe it or
> not, there may be people who have a problem with that.
> Mike Welch
> My condolences regarding your uncle, Daniel.
> *
>
>
> *
Mike and all,
Although some bantering seems to occur when sensitive discussions are
placed in the forum, I truly appreciate all feedback from all parties,
as I feel it refreshes my awareness as a pilot, and allows me to step
back for a minute, think about points that are stated, and reflect how
I would have handled (or not) such a situation. When this forum stops
these healthy (and surely painful) discussions, I will most likely leave
it...
I am in the middle of building right now, and although I did not know
Scott personally, can say I appreciated his contributions on this forum,
and felt in my gut he was a person that would give you the shirt off his
back, asking nothing in return.
Thanks for sharing, and listening. RIP Scott.
--
Sincerely, Fran Losey www.mykitlog.com\loseyf
________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
Time: 03:36:30 AM PST US
From: william sullivan <williamtsullivan@att.net>
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Scott Thompson's accident
- I think the current thread on the accident is good for the List.- Con
jecture will bring awareness of the peculiarities of the handling of low dr
ag, high lift, low weight aircraft.- The NTSB will eventually give the pa
rticulars.- Both will be good for all.- I hope someone will maintain Sc
ott's web site, as it is an excellent reference.- We all are going to mis
s him.
-
-------------------------
-------------------------
Bill Sullivan
-------------------------
-------------------------
-Windsor Locks, Ct.
-------------------------
-------------------------
FS 447
________________________________ Message 3
_____________________________________
Time: 05:34:54 AM PST US
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 09/16/10
From: icrashrc@aol.com
For those of you who don't know me, I am Scott's wife. I can assure you th
at when he was flying around the pattern that he tested the stall speed.
He gave me a list of the things he would do on his intial flight. One of
those was stall speed.
-----Original Message-----
From: Kolb-List Digest Server <kolb-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Fri, Sep 17, 2010 2:57 am
Subject: Kolb-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 09/16/10
*
=======================
=======================
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
=======================
=======================
Today's complete Kolb-List Digest can also be found in either of the
wo Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
n HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
nd Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
f the Kolb-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
uch as Notepad or with a web browser.
HTML Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=ht
ml&Chapter 10-09-16&Archive=Kolb
Text Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=tx
t&Chapter 10-09-16&Archive=Kolb
=======================
======================
EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
=======================
======================
----------------------------------------------------------
Kolb-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Thu 09/16/10: 18
----------------------------------------------------------
oday's Message Index:
---------------------
1. 05:51 AM - That pesky ELSA re-registration problem (Richard Girard
)
2. 10:36 AM - Annual Condition Inspection checklist for Kolbra (Ralph
B)
3. 11:24 AM - Re: Annual Condition Inspection checklist for Kolbra (R
alph
)
4. 11:52 AM - Scott Thompson's accident (Mike Welch)
5. 02:04 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Mike Welch)
6. 02:20 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (PCKing)
7. 02:41 PM - my email address (Mike Welch)
8. 04:51 PM - Here's what I have gathered; (Mike Welch)
9. 05:36 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (ces308)
10. 05:42 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (Ralph B)
11. 07:25 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (PCKing)
12. 07:47 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (John Hauck)
13. 07:56 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (Mike Welch)
14. 08:03 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Daniel Myers)
15. 08:09 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Mike Welch)
16. 09:27 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (Richard Girard)
17. 09:39 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Daniel Myers)
18. 10:01 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Mike Welch)
_______________________________ Message 1 ______________________________
_______
ime: 05:51:16 AM PST US
ubject: Kolb-List: That pesky ELSA re-registration problem
rom: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
After much thought about how to make it legal to re-register an ELSA that
he owner has allowed the registration to expire under the terms of the new
ule I sent the following to the applicable FAA personnel this morning.
"Dear Sirs, There is a problem with the new rule for triennial
e-registration of aircraft when it is applied to experimental light sport
ircraft (ELSA) that were registered under the provisions of FAR 21.191
(1).
f an owner of an ELSA fails to re-register during the applicable period an
d
he registration expires there is no legal means to register the aircraft
gain.
AR 21.191 i(1) expired on January 3, 2008. Form 8050-88A (Affidavit of
wnership) that is required to be filed along with 8050-1 to register an
LSA has been revised so that the only two options for registering an ELSA
re through FAR 21.191 i(2) (aircraft built from a kit of a qualifying
pecial light sport aircraft (SLSA)) and FAR 21.190 (essentially for
anufacturers who need to register a prototype to do compliance testing of
n SLSA).
believe there is a simple way to fix this problem. Revise form 8050-88A
to
nclude an option to the effect, "this aircraft was previously registered
as
_______ under the provisions of FAR 21.191 i(1) and the paperwork is on
ile with the FAA". I believe wording like this or similar would allow an
rrant owner to re-register the aircraft following expiration with a minimu
m
f problems and prevent those who might try to use the provision to registe
r
n aircraft that had not previously been registered.
hank you for your time."
I did this after spending a good portion of yesterday morning talking and
riting to various officials in the FAA about the problem. It occurred to
me
ate last night that the easiest way to get something fixed when there is
a
roblem is to present a solution to those who can remedy it. What the heck,
t's worth a try.
Rick Girard
--
ulu Delta
olb Mk IIIC
82 Gray head
.00 C gearbox
blade WD
hanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unab
le
o imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________
________
ime: 10:36:54 AM PST US
ubject: Kolb-List: Annual Condition Inspection checklist for Kolbra
rom: "Ralph B" <ul15@juno.com>
ravis Brown from Kolb asked it I would post the Annual Condition inspectio
n
hecklist
or the Kolbra. This checklist will work for other Kolbs too.
Ralph B
--------
alph B
riginal Firestar 447
91493 E-AB
000 hours
3 years flying it
olbra 912UL
20386
years flying it
20 hrs
ead this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312658#312658
ttachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/annual_inspection_checklist_179.doc
_______________________________ Message 3 ______________________________
_______
ime: 11:24:48 AM PST US
ubject: Kolb-List: Re: Annual Condition Inspection checklist for Kolbra
rom: "Ralph B" <ul15@juno.com>
fter the inspection is finished, post these words in the aircraft logbook:
date
I certify this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with the scope
nd detail of appendix D to Part 43 and found to be in a condition for safe
peration.
Flight time: XXX.X hours
ame of inspector
ert #xxxxxxxx
--------
alph B
riginal Firestar 447
91493 E-AB
000 hours
3 years flying it
olbra 912UL
20386
years flying it
20 hrs
ead this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312666#312666
_______________________________ Message 4 ______________________________
_______
ime: 11:52:12 AM PST US
rom: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
ubject: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
olb guys=2C
I have tried to find out exactly what happened to cause Scott's fatal cr
a
h.
hy? Because it matters a HELL of a lot to me!! At first=2C I thought
I'd
share what
've found with the entire list=2C then=2C I thought someone may gripe
abou
it.
So=2C if anyone wants to know some of the details about what happened
=2C
ncluding
hat Scott and I discussed a few days prior to his maiden flight=2C email
m
off
he Kolb list=2C and I will share with you what I have found out.
Mike Welch
________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________
________
ime: 02:04:08 PM PST US
rom: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
ubject: RE: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
ist members=2C
I've had a few guys check in=2C but I'm waiting a little while for
few more before we get the conversation going.
The primary reason is for the 'off-list' discussion is I can picture
omeone asking me "who the hell do you think you are.....?" Me? Nobody.
ust a friend of Scott's that would like to figure out what happened=2C
hat's all. I sick and damn tired of hearing about my Kolb buddies
ieing. I'd like to find out why they died...and do my best not to repeat
heir 'mistakes'=2C without trying to pass judgement on them.
Mike Welch
________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________
________
ime: 02:20:48 PM PST US
rom: "PCKing" <pc.king@comcast.net>
ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
ike,
You may not have received many offline requests because everyone on the
ist doesn't have your email address.
I met Scott at AirVenture this year. We spoke about where to source
ileron and flap control seals. I was sad to hear that he'd passed away
est flying something he was so proud of.
I'd like to know what happened.
Peter C. King
c.king@comcast.net
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Welch
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 5:00 PM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
List members,
I've had a few guys check in, but I'm waiting a little while for
a few more before we get the conversation going.
The primary reason is for the 'off-list' discussion is I can picture
someone asking me "who the hell do you think you are.....?" Me?
obody.
Just a friend of Scott's that would like to figure out what happened,
that's all. I sick and damn tired of hearing about my Kolb buddies
dieing. I'd like to find out why they died...and do my best not to
epeat
their 'mistakes', without trying to pass judgement on them.
Mike Welch
_______________________________ Message 7 ______________________________
_______
ime: 02:41:30 PM PST US
rom: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
ubject: Kolb-List: my email address
y email address is=3B mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com (don't forget the '7'!!
!)
Mike Welch
________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________
________
ime: 04:51:45 PM PST US
rom: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
ubject: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered;
ist members=2C I have had many members ask me to bring this subject mat
te
out in the
pen. Plus=2C there are way too many people now=2C for me to reply to.
(a
proaching 30+)
ere is what I have this far!!
My initial thought was to discuss Scott's accident openly with this list
2C but then I thought
'd be criticized by someone for acting like an investigator. Well=2C I'
m
OT an investigator=2C
ut I certainly am curious about the facts that caused Scott's death=2C
esp
cially since I do
ot want to duplicate them.
Then=2C I thought maybe the subject would be best discussed privately
bet
een those only
ho show an interest. Last count=2C I've had about 14 responders=2C so
may
e we should just
ring this out in the open.
(I had the same concern regarding John Ratcliffe's accident a few months
go. Yet=2C I didn't
ay anything=2C and John was soon forgotten=2C it appears. I did some
chec
ing on his situation=2C
nd it seems he must have stalled near turning base to final=2C and nosed
i
in.)
With regard to Scott=2C here is what I have found out. This is by NO
me
ns any kind of official
eport=2C nor do I profess to have all the answers. Additionally=2C I
acce
t any and all new information
hat may correct anything that I may misstate.
A few days before Scott made his intitial flight=2C I asked him where
he
ad his main wing's and
is h. stabilizers set at (since the Oshkosh photos made the h.s. look like
they were too high)
is answer to me was " the main wing is set at where Bryan (@ Kolb Aircraft
told him to set them."
e went on to say "the h. stabilizers are set like the factory recommends
2C but after he's flown
or awhile=2C he can adjust that setting later. (I wish!!)
So=2C at this point=2C as far as I know=2C he had the wing incidenc
es and
hor. stabilizers incidences set
ccording to the factory recommended locations!
Next=2C when I read one of the news reports from one of the local new
s s
urces=2C I saw where they
aid "according to the initial investigators=2C there didn't 'appear' to
be
anything wrong with the
irplane. That would seem to make sense=2C knowing what a perfectionist
Sc
tt was.
The weather was basically calm=2C although at 8:00pm=2C when the acc
ident
happened=2C twilight was
etting. Light=2C however=2C is NOT likely to be a factor.
From discussing this situation with 'others'=2C I have been told Scott
ha
some introductory flights
n a MkIII. Most likely=2C Scott would not have flown solo during this
int
oductory flight.
In one of the news articles=2C it mentioned Scott got his Sport Pilot
li
ense last year. This would
ndicate he probably didn't have a lot of flying time=2C especially when
yo
consider he was spending
lot of time trying to finish building his plane! Scott was=2C you coul
d
ay=2C 'a low-time' pilot.
So=2C up to this point=2C the plane itself=2C the weather=2C the
lighting
2C and the wing's incidences=2C don't appear
o have caused the accident.
What's left?? According to Carol=3B Scott took off and flew around a
cou
le of times=2C and when he came
n to land=2C it just nose-dived in. It landed initially on the pacemen
t
2C but continued to tumble onto the
rass.
What does this tell us? If Carol is complete in her description=2C and
a
l Scott did was "fly around a
ouple of times" =2C and then try to land=2C this tells us he did NOT
climb
to altitude and explore the plane's
lying parameters. It primarily tells us he did not find out the plane's
E
ACT stall speed=2C and now we'll
ever know!
With the fact that Scott was=3B
) a low-time pilot=2C and
) flying a plane that he may not have known the stall speed of
) the mishap occurred at the runway threshold=2C coming in for his 1st
lan
ing
I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final=2C where it nose
-di
ed into the runway=2C and rolled.
If these events are indeed accurate and correct=2C I am very sad=2C
becau
e they seem to be so avoidable.
will miss Scott. I'm am sorry he misjudged the situation=2C and let it
g
t out of control (if these facts
re accurate).
Training=2C people=2C training!! Having crashed an ultralight simil
ar to
these circumstances=2C all I can say
s these accidents can be avoided=2C or at least minimized with proper fl
ig
t education.
These are the facts as I've been able to acertain. If anyone knows more
2C please share it with us.
f I've mistated something=2C please correct the record.
Best regards to all=2C
ike Welch
________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________
________
ime: 05:36:35 PM PST US
ubject: Kolb-List: Re: Here's what I have gathered;
rom: "ces308" <ces308@ldaco.com>
hank you Mike,
I am sorry for Scott,but it does appear he made a terrible mistake,however
,It's
ice to here there doesn't appear to have been a fault of the aircraft.
These are fun airplanes to fly,but to an even greater degree because of th
ere
ack
f weight to keep things going,you need to be very aware of your airspeed
n final...where my 172 flies right through a wind gust,my M3X will stop fl
ying
nd you can never forget that.
Thanks again for the information...every one CAN learn from this ,if they
isten.
chris ambrose
3X/Jabiru 150.3 hrs 2500. total
327CS
ead this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312697#312697
_______________________________ Message 10 _____________________________
_______
ime: 05:42:23 PM PST US
ubject: Kolb-List: Re: Here's what I have gathered;
rom: "Ralph B" <ul15@juno.com>
ike, I'm not an accident investigator either, but I do know that many fata
l
ccidents
ccur due to stall-spins on landing. I was once told, "If there is any
ne thing to remember about flying, it's airspeed". This is especially true
upon
anding. It would be better to come in hot and use up runway than to bend
p your airplane or hurt yourself. It's a fine line sometimes to slow it up
or
o off the end of a short runway. I tend to keep more speed than most pilot
s
nd maybe this has saved me a few times. Kolb's, like other light aircraft
have
ore built-in drag than heavy and clean ones. They tend to lose speed more
uickly.
his means keeping the power on and nose down until it's on the ground.
t's all about speed. Without that, the wings don't lift.
Ralph B
--------
alph B
riginal Firestar 447
91493 E-AB
000 hours
3 years flying it
olbra 912UL
20386
years flying it
20 hrs
ead this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312698#312698
_______________________________ Message 11 _____________________________
_______
ime: 07:25:38 PM PST US
rom: "PCKing" <pc.king@comcast.net>
ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered;
Mike,
Thank you.
Brian Carpenter (Rainbow Aviation) just did a webinar titled "GA to LSA:
ake a Safe Transition" He makes a compelling case for maintaining
irspeed on final because of the low mass and high drag of the fat
ltralight LSAs. He describes them as a cotton ball compared to the GA
olf ball. The highest percentage of LSA accidents occur with GA pilots
t the stick.
The webinar is archived at
http://www.eaavideo.org/channel.aspx?ch=ch_webinars
Peter C. King
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Welch
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 7:48 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered;
List members, I have had many members ask me to bring this subject
atter out in the
open. Plus, there are way too many people now, for me to reply to.
approaching 30+)
Here is what I have this far!!
My initial thought was to discuss Scott's accident openly with this
ist, but then I thought
I'd be criticized by someone for acting like an investigator. Well,
'm NOT an investigator,
but I certainly am curious about the facts that caused Scott's death,
specially since I do
not want to duplicate them.
Then, I thought maybe the subject would be best discussed privately
etween those only
who show an interest. Last count, I've had about 14 responders, so
aybe we should just
bring this out in the open.
(I had the same concern regarding John Ratcliffe's accident a few
onths ago. Yet, I didn't
say anything, and John was soon forgotten, it appears. I did some
hecking on his situation,
and it seems he must have stalled near turning base to final, and
osed it in.)
With regard to Scott, here is what I have found out. This is by NO
eans any kind of official
report, nor do I profess to have all the answers. Additionally, I
ccept any and all new information
that may correct anything that I may misstate.
A few days before Scott made his intitial flight, I asked him where
e had his main wing's and
his h. stabilizers set at (since the Oshkosh photos made the h.s. look
ike they were too high)
His answer to me was " the main wing is set at where Bryan (@ Kolb
ircraft) told him to set them."
He went on to say "the h. stabilizers are set like the factory
ecommends, but after he's flown
for awhile, he can adjust that setting later. (I wish!!)
So, at this point, as far as I know, he had the wing incidences and
or. stabilizers incidences set
according to the factory recommended locations!
Next, when I read one of the news reports from one of the local
ews sources, I saw where they
said "according to the initial investigators, there didn't 'appear' to
e anything wrong with the
airplane. That would seem to make sense, knowing what a perfectionist
cott was.
The weather was basically calm, although at 8:00pm, when the
ccident happened, twilight was
setting. Light, however, is NOT likely to be a factor.
From discussing this situation with 'others', I have been told Scott
ad some introductory flights
in a MkIII. Most likely, Scott would not have flown solo during this
ntroductory flight.
In one of the news articles, it mentioned Scott got his Sport Pilot
icense last year. This would
indicate he probably didn't have a lot of flying time, especially when
ou consider he was spending
a lot of time trying to finish building his plane! Scott was, you
ould say, 'a low-time' pilot.
So, up to this point, the plane itself, the weather, the lighting,
nd the wing's incidences, don't appear
to have caused the accident.
What's left?? According to Carol; Scott took off and flew around a
ouple of times, and when he came
in to land, it just nose-dived in. It landed initially on the
acement, but continued to tumble onto the
grass.
What does this tell us? If Carol is complete in her description,
nd all Scott did was "fly around a
couple of times" , and then try to land, this tells us he did NOT
limb to altitude and explore the plane's
flying parameters. It primarily tells us he did not find out the
lane's EXACT stall speed, and now we'll
never know!
With the fact that Scott was;
A) a low-time pilot, and
B) flying a plane that he may not have known the stall speed of
C) the mishap occurred at the runway threshold, coming in for his 1st
anding
I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final, where it
ose-dived into the runway, and rolled.
If these events are indeed accurate and correct, I am very sad,
ecause they seem to be so avoidable.
I will miss Scott. I'm am sorry he misjudged the situation, and let
t get out of control (if these facts
are accurate).
Training, people, training!! Having crashed an ultralight similar
o these circumstances, all I can say
is these accidents can be avoided, or at least minimized with proper
light education.
These are the facts as I've been able to acertain. If anyone knows
ore, please share it with us.
If I've mistated something, please correct the record.
Best regards to all,
Mike Welch
_______________________________ Message 12 _____________________________
_______
ime: 07:47:04 PM PST US
rom: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
Mike W:
Have you discussed your findings with the NTSB?
Maybe your information would help in their investigation and their
etermination of the cause of the accident.
john h
kIII
ock House, OR
I have tried to find out exactly what happened to cause Scott's
atal crash.
Why? Because it matters a HELL of a lot to me!! At first, I thought
'd share what
I've found with the entire list, then, I thought someone may gripe
bout it.
So, if anyone wants to know some of the details about what happened,
ncluding
what Scott and I discussed a few days prior to his maiden flight,
mail me off
the Kolb list, and I will share with you what I have found out.
Mike Welch
________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________
________
ime: 07:56:23 PM PST US
rom: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
ubject: RE: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered;
eter=2C
Certainly there is no disputing that some GA pilots do seem to have trou
b
e
ransitioning from the factory iron to the lighter=2C less mass SLA or li
gh
planes.
However=2C in Scott's case=2C I'm afraid that "transitioning" wasn't
the
ssue=2C because
ince he only got his Sport Pilot license last year=2C he couldn't have
had
very many
ours in GA airplanes. At least=2C that's what I'm led to believe.
Additionally=2C Carol described him as 'coming in for a landing' and th
en
he sort of
nose-dived". This scenario is much more indicative of an approach-to-land
ng-
tall=2C rather than the typical GA to LSA failure to handle the mass dif
fe
ences
etween the two (at touchdown).
Airspeed is one thing you cannot ignor when flying an airplane=2C lest
th
ground
ise up and smite thee!!!
Mike Welch
ike=2C
Thank you.
Brian Carpenter (Rainbow Aviation) just did a webinar titled "GA to LSA:
Ma
e a Safe Transition" He makes a compelling case for maintaining airspeed
o
final because of the low mass and high drag of the fat ultralight LSAs.
H
describes them as a cotton ball compared to the GA golf ball. The highest
percentage of LSA accidents occur with GA pilots at the stick.
The webinar is archived at
http://www.eaavideo.org/channel.aspx?ch=ch_webinars
Peter C. King
---- Original Message -----
rom: Mike Welch
ent: Thursday=2C September 16=2C 2010 7:48 PM
ubject: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered=3B
List members=2C I have had many members ask me to bring this subject ma
tte
out in the
pen. Plus=2C there are way too many people now=2C for me to reply to.
(a
proaching 30+)
ere is what I have this far!!
My initial thought was to discuss Scott's accident openly with this list
2C but then I thought
'd be criticized by someone for acting like an investigator. Well=2C I'
m
OT an investigator=2C
ut I certainly am curious about the facts that caused Scott's death=2C
esp
cially since I do
ot want to duplicate them.
Then=2C I thought maybe the subject would be best discussed privately
bet
een those only
ho show an interest. Last count=2C I've had about 14 responders=2C so
may
e we should just
ring this out in the open.
(I had the same concern regarding John Ratcliffe's accident a few months
go. Yet=2C I didn't
ay anything=2C and John was soon forgotten=2C it appears. I did some
chec
ing on his situation=2C
nd it seems he must have stalled near turning base to final=2C and nosed
i
in.)
With regard to Scott=2C here is what I have found out. This is by NO
me
ns any kind of official
eport=2C nor do I profess to have all the answers. Additionally=2C I
acce
t any and all new information
hat may correct anything that I may misstate.
A few days before Scott made his intitial flight=2C I asked him where
he
ad his main wing's and
is h. stabilizers set at (since the Oshkosh photos made the h.s. look like
they were too high)
is answer to me was " the main wing is set at where Bryan (@ Kolb Aircraft
told him to set them."
e went on to say "the h. stabilizers are set like the factory recommends
2C but after he's flown
or awhile=2C he can adjust that setting later. (I wish!!)
So=2C at this point=2C as far as I know=2C he had the wing incidenc
es and
hor. stabilizers incidences set
ccording to the factory recommended locations!
Next=2C when I read one of the news reports from one of the local new
s s
urces=2C I saw where they
aid "according to the initial investigators=2C there didn't 'appear' to
be
anything wrong with the
irplane. That would seem to make sense=2C knowing what a perfectionist
Sc
tt was.
The weather was basically calm=2C although at 8:00pm=2C when the acc
ident
happened=2C twilight was
etting. Light=2C however=2C is NOT likely to be a factor.
From discussing this situation with 'others'=2C I have been told Scott
ha
some introductory flights
n a MkIII. Most likely=2C Scott would not have flown solo during this
int
oductory flight.
In one of the news articles=2C it mentioned Scott got his Sport Pilot
li
ense last year. This would
ndicate he probably didn't have a lot of flying time=2C especially when
yo
consider he was spending
lot of time trying to finish building his plane! Scott was=2C you coul
d
ay=2C 'a low-time' pilot.
So=2C up to this point=2C the plane itself=2C the weather=2C the
lighting
2C and the wing's incidences=2C don't appear
o have caused the accident.
What's left?? According to Carol=3B Scott took off and flew around a
cou
le of times=2C and when he came
n to land=2C it just nose-dived in. It landed initially on the pacemen
t
2C but continued to tumble onto the
rass.
What does this tell us? If Carol is complete in her description=2C and
a
l Scott did was "fly around a
ouple of times" =2C and then try to land=2C this tells us he did NOT
climb
to altitude and explore the plane's
lying parameters. It primarily tells us he did not find out the plane's
E
ACT stall speed=2C and now we'll
ever know!
With the fact that Scott was=3B
) a low-time pilot=2C and
) flying a plane that he may not have known the stall speed of
) the mishap occurred at the runway threshold=2C coming in for his 1st
lan
ing
I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final=2C where it nose
-di
ed into the runway=2C and rolled.
If these events are indeed accurate and correct=2C I am very sad=2C
becau
e they seem to be so avoidable.
will miss Scott. I'm am sorry he misjudged the situation=2C and let it
g
t out of control (if these facts
re accurate).
Training=2C people=2C training!! Having crashed an ultralight simil
ar to
these circumstances=2C all I can say
s these accidents can be avoided=2C or at least minimized with proper fl
ig
t education.
These are the facts as I've been able to acertain. If anyone knows more
2C please share it with us.
f I've mistated something=2C please correct the record.
Best regards to all=2C
ike Welch
ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.
om/Navigator?Kolb-List
ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
ref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________
________
ime: 08:03:33 PM PST US
ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
rom: Daniel Myers <h20maule@hotmail.com>
Class move John I like it
aniel
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 16=2C 2010=2C at 3:23 PM=2C "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.co
m> wrot
:
> Mike W:
Have you discussed your findings with the NTSB?
Maybe your information would help in their investigation and their determ
nation of the cause of the accident.
john h
mkIII
Rock House=2C OR
I have tried to find out exactly what happened to cause Scott's fatal
rash.
Why? Because it matters a HELL of a lot to me!! At first=2C I thought
I
d share what
I've found with the entire list=2C then=2C I thought someone may grip
e ab
ut it.
So=2C if anyone wants to know some of the details about what happened
2C including
what Scott and I discussed a few days prior to his maiden flight=2C ema
il
me off
the Kolb list=2C and I will share with you what I have found out.
Mike Welch
========
========
========
========
________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________
________
ime: 08:09:48 PM PST US
rom: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
ubject: RE: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
Mike W:
>Have you discussed your findings with the NTSB?
>Maybe your information would help in their investigation and their determ
i
ation of >the cause of the accident.
>john h
mkIII
John H=2C
No=2C I haven't=2C but I will be calling them tomorrow. But the fac
t is
2C I shared
hat little information I dug up=2C and packaged into one concise email.
T
e
nformation I gathered was either reading it in news articles relating to
t
e
rash (in otherwords...public information)=2C my emails with Scott=2C
just
rior
o his flight=2C and telephone conversations with a couple of Kolb list
mem
ers.
I'm simply trying to save lives. Do you have a problem with my discuss
i
n?
m I supposed to contact that NTSB to show a concern for Kolb pilots?
Mike Welch
________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________
________
ime: 09:27:32 PM PST US
ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered;
rom: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
Whoa! Let's get something straight. Gusts and wind affect glide path and
round speed, not airspeed. The danger is inexperienced pilots who get
ixated on a point and pull back on the stick in an effort to maintain glid
e
oward that point. The only thing that counts is airspeed, period.
s I told Mike when we talked on Sunday, I have a mantra that goes on in my
ead, and sometimes out loud, from the moment I pull power back from cruise
o set up an approach. It's just two words, Hold 50. If you watched the
ideo I made about the sight picture as it changes for flap settings, you
an hear me over the sound of the 582 saying, "turning final, HOLD 50". It'
s
y choice of approach airspeed for my Mk III based upon the stall speeds I
ocumented. It makes absolutely no difference if I hold some power in
eserve or close the throttle completely, it's HOLD 50 and it stays HOLD 50
ntil I pull back on the stick to round out and let her settle to the
round. If I'm a little too high on approach, which I actually prefer, I ca
n
lip Zulu Delta to lose altitude a little faster, and I still HOLD 50.
Rick Girard
On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 9:18 PM, PCKing <pc.king@comcast.net> wrote:
> Mike,
Thank you.
Brian Carpenter (Rainbow Aviation) just did a webinar titled "GA to LSA:
Make a Safe Transition" He makes a compelling case for maintaining airspe
ed
on final because of the low mass and high drag of the fat ultralight LSAs
..
He describes them as a cotton ball compared to the GA golf ball. The high
est
percentage of LSA accidents occur with GA pilots at the stick.
The webinar is archived at
http://www.eaavideo.org/channel.aspx?ch=ch_webinars
Peter C. King
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
*To:* kolb-list@matronics.com
*Sent:* Thursday, September 16, 2010 7:48 PM
*Subject:* Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered;
List members, I have had many members ask me to bring this subject matte
r
out in the
open. Plus, there are way too many people now, for me to reply to.
(approaching 30+)
Here is what I have this far!!
My initial thought was to discuss Scott's accident openly with this
list, but then I thought
I'd be criticized by someone for acting like an investigator. Well, I'm
NOT an investigator,
but I certainly am curious about the facts that caused Scott's death,
especially since I do
not want to duplicate them.
Then, I thought maybe the subject would be best discussed privately
between those only
who show an interest. Last count, I've had about 14 responders, so maybe
we should just
bring this out in the open.
(I had the same concern regarding John Ratcliffe's accident a few month
s
ago. Yet, I didn't
say anything, and John was soon forgotten, it appears. I did some checki
ng
on his situation,
and it seems he must have stalled near turning base to final, and nosed
it
in.)
With regard to Scott, here is what I have found out. This is by NO
means any kind of official
report, nor do I profess to have all the answers. Additionally, I accept
any and all new information
that may correct anything that I may misstate.
A few days before Scott made his intitial flight, I asked him where he
had his main wing's and
his h. stabilizers set at (since the Oshkosh photos made the h.s. look li
ke
they were too high)
His answer to me was " the main wing is set at where Bryan (@ Kolb
Aircraft) told him to set them."
He went on to say "the h. stabilizers are set like the factory recommends
,
but after he's flown
for awhile, he can adjust that setting later. (I wish!!)
So, at this point, as far as I know, he had the wing incidences and hor
..
stabilizers incidences set
according to the factory recommended locations!
Next, when I read one of the news reports from one of the local news
sources, I saw where they
said "according to the initial investigators, there didn't 'appear' to be
anything wrong with the
airplane. That would seem to make sense, knowing what a perfectionist
Scott was.
The weather was basically calm, although at 8:00pm, when the accident
happened, twilight was
setting. Light, however, is NOT likely to be a factor.
From discussing this situation with 'others', I have been told Scott ha
d
some introductory flights
in a MkIII. Most likely, Scott would not have flown solo during this
introductory flight.
In one of the news articles, it mentioned Scott got his Sport Pilot
license last year. This would
indicate he probably didn't have a lot of flying time, especially when yo
u
consider he was spending
a lot of time trying to finish building his plane! Scott was, you could
say, 'a low-time' pilot.
So, up to this point, the plane itself, the weather, the lighting, and
the wing's incidences, don't appear
to have caused the accident.
What's left?? According to Carol; Scott took off and flew around a
couple of times, and when he came
in to land, it just nose-dived in. It landed initially on the pacement,
but continued to tumble onto the
grass.
What does this tell us? If Carol is complete in her description, and
all
Scott did was "fly around a
couple of times" , and then try to land, this tells us he did NOT climb
to
altitude and explore the plane's
flying parameters. It primarily tells us he did not find out the plane's
EXACT stall speed, and now we'll
never know!
With the fact that Scott was;
A) a low-time pilot, and
B) flying a plane that he may not have known the stall speed of
C) the mishap occurred at the runway threshold, coming in for his 1st
landing
I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final, where it
nose-dived into the runway, and rolled.
If these events are indeed accurate and correct, I am very sad, because
they seem to be so avoidable.
I will miss Scott. I'm am sorry he misjudged the situation, and let it
get
out of control (if these facts
are accurate).
Training, people, training!! Having crashed an ultralight similar to
these circumstances, all I can say
is these accidents can be avoided, or at least minimized with proper flig
ht
education.
These are the facts as I've been able to acertain. If anyone knows mor
e,
please share it with us.
If I've mistated something, please correct the record.
Best regards to all,
Mike Welch
*
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
*
*
*
-
ulu Delta
olb Mk IIIC
82 Gray head
.00 C gearbox
blade WD
hanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unab
le
o imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________
________
ime: 09:39:45 PM PST US
ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
rom: Daniel Myers <h20maule@hotmail.com>
Mike=2C my uncle died in my kolb and no one knows what happened except
for
im. Kolbs Are great planes but are very unforgiving. I continue to fly Kol
s only because I know not to get close to that stall speed. I have only ow
ed two Kolbs but I know the limits..this guy was on his first flight=2C
it
s a terrible situation because he didn't know the kolb and it's limits.
aniel
Sent from my iPhoned
On Sep 16=2C 2010=2C at 11:06 PM=2C Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.
com> wr
te:
> >Mike W:
>Have you discussed your findings with the NTSB?
>Maybe your information would help in their investigation and their deter
ination of >the cause of the accident.
>john h
>mkIII
John H=2C
No=2C I haven't=2C but I will be calling them tomorrow. But the fa
ct i
=2C I shared
what little information I dug up=2C and packaged into one concise email
.
The
information I gathered was either reading it in news articles relating to
the
crash (in otherwords...public information)=2C my emails with Scott=2C
jus
prior
to his flight=2C and telephone conversations with a couple of Kolb list
m
mbers.
I'm simply trying to save lives. Do you have a problem with my discus
ion?
Am I supposed to contact that NTSB to show a concern for Kolb pilots?
Mike Welch
========
========
========
========
________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________
________
ime: 10:01:06 PM PST US
rom: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
ubject: RE: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
ike=2C my uncle died in my kolb and no one knows what happened except fo
r
im. Kolbs Are great planes but are very unforgiving. I continue to fly Kol
s only because I know not to get close to that stall speed. I have only ow
ed two Kolbs but I know the limits..this guy was on his first flight=2C
it
s a terrible situation because he didn't know the kolb and it's limits.
aniel
Daniel=2C
You are exactly right (with your last statement). I am afraid it is pos
s
ble it is as simple as
e may have simply misjudged what he was doing. Of course=2C we will nev
er
know the whole truth now.
It is only my intention to help educate those of us who fly=2C or are
yet
to fly=2C their Kolb aircraft.
rashing and dieing does little good to both the families left behind and
t
e reputation of the aircraft. I
ould like to reduce the damage by analyzing what we know=2C and learn fr
om
our errors. Believe it or
ot=2C there may be people who have a problem with that.
Mike Welch
y condolences regarding your uncle=2C Daniel.
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________________________________ Message 4
_____________________________________
Time: 07:02:30 AM PST US
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Upgrading from current 4.00-6 "Garden" tires.
From: "gotime242" <dylanshine@gmail.com>
Thanks, i just wanted to be sure it was ok/safe to go wider than recommended
or
than the width of the rim since there is only 4.00's on there now.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312833#312833
________________________________ Message 5
_____________________________________
Time: 07:05:19 AM PST US
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: kolb stall
From: Richard Neilsen <neilsenrm@gmail.com>
Hey All
There has been a lot of good discussion since Scott's tragic accident. My
concern is that it leaves the impression that there is a problem or bad
flight characteristic with our airplanes which there is not.
I'm not a major high time pilot but I have had the opportunity to fly quite
a few different airplanes and none are as good as our Kolbs. Our planes have
tremendous short field capabilities that when fully utilized (flaps and no
power landings) does require a high level of precision. Pilots new to the
Kolb flight characteristics will have problems with these flight
characteristics no matter how skilled they are in other aircraft. Land with
power and stay away from the flaps till you get very good at it. Then very
gradually land with less power OR using more flaps. Don't progress too
quickly. I have a set of fully retracted Kolb landing gear legs that I bent
when I progressed to full flaps and no power way too quickly.
Flight instructors not used to our Kolbs don't train us how to handle our
Kolbs properly/safely. I recently got my check ride with a GA instructor in
my Kolb. I was praised for how well I flew the plane in everything but how I
flew very short final. He felt I rounded out way too low and with too much
airspeed. I think this is a very common mistake that most non
Kolb instructors will make. Let me also explain I did fly a bit faster
approach rounded out lower because my instructor was a good 100 lbs heaver
than anyone I had ever flown in my plane and I was using a very long 2500 ft
grass strip. Yes we were a bit over gross weight.
Rick Neilsen
1st Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
________________________________ Message 6
_____________________________________
Time: 07:16:39 AM PST US
From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: kolb stall
--------------------------------------------------
"John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
(09/17/2010 16:35)
> I know nothing of the results of the investigations, but a Kolb in a nose
> high attitude that runs out of airspeed will drop the nose and normally a
> wing....
Especially if it's a new airplane that might not be properly trimmed
out yet.
-Dana
________________________________ Message 7
_____________________________________
Time: 03:41:04 PM PST US
From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
Subject: Kolb-List: airspeed indicator calibration
Kolb guys=2C
I am in the process of installing all the instruments in my MkIII. One o
f the
instruments is an analog airspeed indicator. It's a standard=2C typical ty
pe of indicator that uses
ram air to determine it's reading=2C by way of a pitot tube.
Out of the box=2C I can't imagine it can be very accurate=2C can it? I m
ean=2C everybody will have
their own unique design in installing one of these=2C so I would think that
each installation would
be off a little from someone else's installation. Or=2C are they much more
uniform in their
readings?
I have the exact placement in my panel and the routing of the tubing pret
ty much figured out.
For those guys that have installed an airspeed indicator=2C did you calib
rate it in any way first=2C
or did you just stick it in the plane and live with whatever reading it say
s once you start
flying the plane?
I thought what I would do is essentially build the whole system=2C and ge
t someone to drive
a car down the road=2C with me hanging the A/S indicator's pitot tube out t
he window. While this
may seem somewhat silly=2C at least I could an idea how accurate it might b
e. At least it's a start=2C
right? Has anybody done this?? Or is it a waste of time?
For an instrument that has so much riding on it=2C and if new=2C hasn't r
eally proven itself for
accuracy=2C it seems to me a guy ought to verify in some way it comes "clos
e" to the correct
airspeed.
Any thoughts or experiences would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
Mike Welch
MkIII
________________________________ Message 8
_____________________________________
Time: 05:02:46 PM PST US
From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: airspeed indicator calibration
The instrument itself should be quite accurate, but pressure
variations at the pitot and static sources can throw it way off. The
pressure field around a moving car will make any such calibration
meaningless, too. Put it in the plane. You can use your GPS to
calibrate it on a dead calm day, or average readings into and with a
steady wind.
-Dana
--------------------------------------------------
Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com> wrote:
(09/18/2010 18:35)
>
> Kolb guys,
>
> I am in the process of installing all the instruments in my MkIII. One
of
the
> instruments is an analog airspeed indicator. It's a standard, typical
type of
indicator that uses
> ram air to determine it's reading, by way of a pitot tube.
>
> Out of the box, I can't imagine it can be very accurate, can it? I
mean, everybody
will have
> their own unique design in installing one of these, so I would think that
each
installation would
> be off a little from someone else's installation. Or, are they much more
uniform
in their
> readings?
>
> I have the exact placement in my panel and the routing of the tubing
pretty
much figured out.
>
> For those guys that have installed an airspeed indicator, did you
calibrate
it in any way first,
> or did you just stick it in the plane and live with whatever reading it
says
once you start
> flying the plane?
>
> I thought what I would do is essentially build the whole system, and get
someone
to drive
> a car down the road, with me hanging the A/S indicator's pitot tube out
the window.
While this
> may seem somewhat silly, at least I could an idea how accurate it might
be.
At least it's a start,
> right? Has anybody done this?? Or is it a waste of time?
>
> For an instrument that has so much riding on it, and if new, hasn't
really
proven itself for
> accuracy, it seems to me a guy ought to verify in some way it comes
"close" to
the correct
> airspeed.
>
> Any thoughts or experiences would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
>
> Mike Welch
> MkIII
>
>
>
>
________________________________ Message 9
_____________________________________
Time: 07:28:51 PM PST US
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: airspeed indicator calibration
From: "Richard Pike" <richard@bcchapel.org>
IMO, it is almost impossible to calibrate an airspeed indicator unless it is
in
the airplane, because of the variables involved in each installation. When
we
first flew the FSII, we had screwy airspeed readings, and it turned out we
had
two problems: one was with the indicator, the other was the pitot location.
Fixed the location of the pitot, but the numbers were till odd, so tried an
experiment.
Strapped a piece of 1 1/2" aluminum tubing onto the roof rack of the Jeep so
that
the forward end was ahead of and well above the hood (no bow wave allowed)
and ran a piece of vinyl tubing to the airspeed indicator. Wrote down the
numbers
at various speeds, then swapped out the airspeed indicator with another that
was known to be good, did it again, and there was quite a disparity.
But all that did was prove that the original airspeed indicator was bad.
Bought
a new one and put it in the airplane and flew it, and compared it to the
GPS.
It was good enough that we left it alone.
Wonder if we hurt it in the wreck? Guess we'll find out in a couple months.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312875#312875
________________________________ Message 10
____________________________________
Time: 09:27:46 PM PST US
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Here's what I have gathered;
From: "R. Hankins" <rphanks@grantspass.com>
"The kolb stall is very unforgiving-trust me... "
h20maule, Your statement is incorrect. It should read: "The stall of my
kolb
is very unforgiving-trust me... ".
I have never flown your kolb, but I have flown 2 MarkIIIs, 4 firestars and a
Kolbra
and none of them had unforgiving stall characteristics. The worst one was
mine when I had the VGs mounted too far back. This was the only kolb I have
flown that had a sharp stall break, but recovery was still quick,
straightforward
and uneventful. Moving the VGs forward gave me back my gentle airplane.
Unforgiving is a pretty subjective term. Can you describe what it is about
stalls
in your kolb that makes them less than desirable? Maybe there is something
unique about your plane that can be changed to improve its handling?
--------
Roger in Oregon
1992 KXP 503 - N1782C
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312882#312882
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Subject: | Re: RE: Kolb-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 09/18/10 |
Thanks for sharing. Perhaps a reding primer would be more appropriate.
Rick
On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 2:52 AM, Go Flying <flying@goflying.co> wrote:
>
> I have decided to unsubscribe to the Matronics lists, there is nearly no
> traffic and no content to red.
>
> Chris Norman, CEO
> www.digitalrealitycorp.com
>
> owner www.goflying.co
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kolb-List
> Digest
> Server
> Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 1:58 AM
> To: Kolb-List Digest List
> Subject: Kolb-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 09/18/10
>
> *
>
> =================================================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> =================================================
>
> Today's complete Kolb-List Digest can also be found in either of the
> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
> of the Kolb-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
> such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>
> HTML Version:
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter
> 10-09-18&Archive=Kolb
>
> Text Version:
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter
> 2010-09-18&Archive=Kolb
>
>
> ===============================================
> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> ===============================================
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Kolb-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Sat 09/18/10: 10
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
> 1. 03:12 AM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Fran Losey)
> 2. 03:36 AM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (william sullivan)
> 3. 05:34 AM - Re: Kolb-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 09/16/10
> (icrashrc@aol.com)
> 4. 07:02 AM - Re: Upgrading from current 4.00-6 "Garden" tires.
> (gotime242)
> 5. 07:05 AM - Re: Re: kolb stall (Richard Neilsen)
> 6. 07:16 AM - Re: Re: kolb stall (Dana Hague)
> 7. 03:41 PM - airspeed indicator calibration (Mike Welch)
> 8. 05:02 PM - Re: airspeed indicator calibration (Dana Hague)
> 9. 07:28 PM - Re: airspeed indicator calibration (Richard Pike)
> 10. 09:27 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (R. Hankins)
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 1
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 03:12:52 AM PST US
> From: Fran Losey <loseyf@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
>
> On 9/17/2010 12:57 AM, Mike Welch wrote:
> > Mike, my uncle died in my kolb and no one knows what happened except
> > for him. Kolbs Are great planes but are very unforgiving. I continue
> > to fly Kolbs only because I know not to get close to that stall speed.
> > I have only owned two Kolbs but I know the limits..this guy was on his
> > first flight, it's a terrible situation because he didn't know the
> > kolb and it's limits.
> > Daniel
> >
> > Daniel,
> > You are exactly right (with your last statement). I am afraid it is
> > possible it is as simple as
> > he may have simply misjudged what he was doing. Of course, we will
> > never know the whole truth now.
> > It is only my intention to help educate those of us who fly, or are
> > yet to fly, their Kolb aircraft.
> > Crashing and dieing does little good to both the families left behind
> > and the reputation of the aircraft. I
> > would like to reduce the damage by analyzing what we know, and learn
> > from our errors. Believe it or
> > not, there may be people who have a problem with that.
> > Mike Welch
> > My condolences regarding your uncle, Daniel.
> > *
> >
> >
> > *
> Mike and all,
>
> Although some bantering seems to occur when sensitive discussions are
> placed in the forum, I truly appreciate all feedback from all parties,
> as I feel it refreshes my awareness as a pilot, and allows me to step
> back for a minute, think about points that are stated, and reflect how
> I would have handled (or not) such a situation. When this forum stops
> these healthy (and surely painful) discussions, I will most likely leave
> it...
>
> I am in the middle of building right now, and although I did not know
> Scott personally, can say I appreciated his contributions on this forum,
> and felt in my gut he was a person that would give you the shirt off his
> back, asking nothing in return.
>
> Thanks for sharing, and listening. RIP Scott.
>
> --
> Sincerely, Fran Losey www.mykitlog.com\loseyf
>
> ________________________________ Message 2
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 03:36:30 AM PST US
> From: william sullivan <williamtsullivan@att.net>
> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Scott Thompson's accident
>
> - I think the current thread on the accident is good for the List.- Con
> jecture will bring awareness of the peculiarities of the handling of low dr
> ag, high lift, low weight aircraft.- The NTSB will eventually give the pa
> rticulars.- Both will be good for all.- I hope someone will maintain Sc
> ott's web site, as it is an excellent reference.- We all are going to mis
> s him.
> -
> -------------------------
> -------------------------
> Bill Sullivan
> -------------------------
> -------------------------
> -Windsor Locks, Ct.
> -------------------------
> -------------------------
> FS 447
>
> ________________________________ Message 3
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:34:54 AM PST US
> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 09/16/10
> From: icrashrc@aol.com
>
> For those of you who don't know me, I am Scott's wife. I can assure you th
> at when he was flying around the pattern that he tested the stall speed.
> He gave me a list of the things he would do on his intial flight. One of
> those was stall speed.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kolb-List Digest Server <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Fri, Sep 17, 2010 2:57 am
> Subject: Kolb-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 09/16/10
>
>
> *
> =======================
> =======================
>
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> =======================
> =======================
>
> Today's complete Kolb-List Digest can also be found in either of the
> wo Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
>
> n HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
> nd Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
> f the Kolb-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
> uch as Notepad or with a web browser.
> HTML Version:
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=ht
> ml&Chapter 10-09-16&Archive=Kolb
> Text Version:
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=tx
> t&Chapter 10-09-16&Archive=Kolb
>
> =======================
> ======================
> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> =======================
> ======================
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Kolb-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Thu 09/16/10: 18
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> oday's Message Index:
> ---------------------
>
> 1. 05:51 AM - That pesky ELSA re-registration problem (Richard Girard
> )
> 2. 10:36 AM - Annual Condition Inspection checklist for Kolbra (Ralph
> B)
> 3. 11:24 AM - Re: Annual Condition Inspection checklist for Kolbra (R
> alph
> )
> 4. 11:52 AM - Scott Thompson's accident (Mike Welch)
> 5. 02:04 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Mike Welch)
> 6. 02:20 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (PCKing)
> 7. 02:41 PM - my email address (Mike Welch)
> 8. 04:51 PM - Here's what I have gathered; (Mike Welch)
> 9. 05:36 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (ces308)
> 10. 05:42 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (Ralph B)
> 11. 07:25 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (PCKing)
> 12. 07:47 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (John Hauck)
> 13. 07:56 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (Mike Welch)
> 14. 08:03 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Daniel Myers)
> 15. 08:09 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Mike Welch)
> 16. 09:27 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (Richard Girard)
> 17. 09:39 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Daniel Myers)
> 18. 10:01 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Mike Welch)
>
>
> _______________________________ Message 1 ______________________________
> _______
>
> ime: 05:51:16 AM PST US
> ubject: Kolb-List: That pesky ELSA re-registration problem
> rom: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
> After much thought about how to make it legal to re-register an ELSA that
> he owner has allowed the registration to expire under the terms of the new
> ule I sent the following to the applicable FAA personnel this morning.
> "Dear Sirs, There is a problem with the new rule for triennial
> e-registration of aircraft when it is applied to experimental light sport
> ircraft (ELSA) that were registered under the provisions of FAR 21.191
> (1).
> f an owner of an ELSA fails to re-register during the applicable period an
> d
> he registration expires there is no legal means to register the aircraft
> gain.
> AR 21.191 i(1) expired on January 3, 2008. Form 8050-88A (Affidavit of
> wnership) that is required to be filed along with 8050-1 to register an
> LSA has been revised so that the only two options for registering an ELSA
> re through FAR 21.191 i(2) (aircraft built from a kit of a qualifying
> pecial light sport aircraft (SLSA)) and FAR 21.190 (essentially for
> anufacturers who need to register a prototype to do compliance testing of
> n SLSA).
> believe there is a simple way to fix this problem. Revise form 8050-88A
> to
> nclude an option to the effect, "this aircraft was previously registered
> as
> _______ under the provisions of FAR 21.191 i(1) and the paperwork is on
> ile with the FAA". I believe wording like this or similar would allow an
> rrant owner to re-register the aircraft following expiration with a minimu
> m
> f problems and prevent those who might try to use the provision to registe
> r
> n aircraft that had not previously been registered.
> hank you for your time."
> I did this after spending a good portion of yesterday morning talking and
> riting to various officials in the FAA about the problem. It occurred to
> me
> ate last night that the easiest way to get something fixed when there is
> a
> roblem is to present a solution to those who can remedy it. What the heck,
> t's worth a try.
> Rick Girard
> --
> ulu Delta
> olb Mk IIIC
> 82 Gray head
> .00 C gearbox
> blade WD
> hanks, Homer GBYM
> It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unab
> le
> o imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
> - G.K. Chesterton
> ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________
> ________
>
> ime: 10:36:54 AM PST US
> ubject: Kolb-List: Annual Condition Inspection checklist for Kolbra
> rom: "Ralph B" <ul15@juno.com>
>
> ravis Brown from Kolb asked it I would post the Annual Condition inspectio
> n
> hecklist
> or the Kolbra. This checklist will work for other Kolbs too.
> Ralph B
> --------
> alph B
> riginal Firestar 447
> 91493 E-AB
> 000 hours
> 3 years flying it
> olbra 912UL
> 20386
> years flying it
> 20 hrs
>
> ead this topic online here:
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312658#312658
>
> ttachments:
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/annual_inspection_checklist_179.doc
>
> _______________________________ Message 3 ______________________________
> _______
>
> ime: 11:24:48 AM PST US
> ubject: Kolb-List: Re: Annual Condition Inspection checklist for Kolbra
> rom: "Ralph B" <ul15@juno.com>
>
> fter the inspection is finished, post these words in the aircraft logbook:
> date
> I certify this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with the scope
> nd detail of appendix D to Part 43 and found to be in a condition for safe
> peration.
> Flight time: XXX.X hours
>
> ame of inspector
> ert #xxxxxxxx
> --------
> alph B
> riginal Firestar 447
> 91493 E-AB
> 000 hours
> 3 years flying it
> olbra 912UL
> 20386
> years flying it
> 20 hrs
>
> ead this topic online here:
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312666#312666
>
> _______________________________ Message 4 ______________________________
> _______
>
> ime: 11:52:12 AM PST US
> rom: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
> ubject: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
>
> olb guys=2C
> I have tried to find out exactly what happened to cause Scott's fatal cr
> a
> h.
> hy? Because it matters a HELL of a lot to me!! At first=2C I thought
> I'd
> share what
> 've found with the entire list=2C then=2C I thought someone may gripe
> abou
> it.
> So=2C if anyone wants to know some of the details about what happened
> =2C
> ncluding
> hat Scott and I discussed a few days prior to his maiden flight=2C email
> m
> off
> he Kolb list=2C and I will share with you what I have found out.
> Mike Welch
> ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________
> ________
>
> ime: 02:04:08 PM PST US
> rom: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
> ubject: RE: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
>
> ist members=2C
> I've had a few guys check in=2C but I'm waiting a little while for
> few more before we get the conversation going.
> The primary reason is for the 'off-list' discussion is I can picture
> omeone asking me "who the hell do you think you are.....?" Me? Nobody.
> ust a friend of Scott's that would like to figure out what happened=2C
> hat's all. I sick and damn tired of hearing about my Kolb buddies
> ieing. I'd like to find out why they died...and do my best not to repeat
> heir 'mistakes'=2C without trying to pass judgement on them.
> Mike Welch
> ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________
> ________
>
> ime: 02:20:48 PM PST US
> rom: "PCKing" <pc.king@comcast.net>
> ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
>
> ike,
> You may not have received many offline requests because everyone on the
> ist doesn't have your email address.
> I met Scott at AirVenture this year. We spoke about where to source
> ileron and flap control seals. I was sad to hear that he'd passed away
> est flying something he was so proud of.
> I'd like to know what happened.
> Peter C. King
> c.king@comcast.net
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mike Welch
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 5:00 PM
> Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
>
> List members,
>
> I've had a few guys check in, but I'm waiting a little while for
> a few more before we get the conversation going.
>
> The primary reason is for the 'off-list' discussion is I can picture
> someone asking me "who the hell do you think you are.....?" Me?
> obody.
> Just a friend of Scott's that would like to figure out what happened,
> that's all. I sick and damn tired of hearing about my Kolb buddies
> dieing. I'd like to find out why they died...and do my best not to
> epeat
> their 'mistakes', without trying to pass judgement on them.
>
> Mike Welch
>
> _______________________________ Message 7 ______________________________
> _______
>
> ime: 02:41:30 PM PST US
> rom: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
> ubject: Kolb-List: my email address
>
> y email address is=3B mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com (don't forget the '7'!!
> !)
> Mike Welch
> ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________
> ________
>
> ime: 04:51:45 PM PST US
> rom: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
> ubject: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered;
>
> ist members=2C I have had many members ask me to bring this subject mat
> te
> out in the
> pen. Plus=2C there are way too many people now=2C for me to reply to.
> (a
> proaching 30+)
> ere is what I have this far!!
> My initial thought was to discuss Scott's accident openly with this list
> 2C but then I thought
> 'd be criticized by someone for acting like an investigator. Well=2C I'
> m
> OT an investigator=2C
> ut I certainly am curious about the facts that caused Scott's death=2C
> esp
> cially since I do
> ot want to duplicate them.
> Then=2C I thought maybe the subject would be best discussed privately
> bet
> een those only
> ho show an interest. Last count=2C I've had about 14 responders=2C so
> may
> e we should just
> ring this out in the open.
> (I had the same concern regarding John Ratcliffe's accident a few months
>
> go. Yet=2C I didn't
> ay anything=2C and John was soon forgotten=2C it appears. I did some
> chec
> ing on his situation=2C
> nd it seems he must have stalled near turning base to final=2C and nosed
> i
> in.)
> With regard to Scott=2C here is what I have found out. This is by NO
> me
> ns any kind of official
> eport=2C nor do I profess to have all the answers. Additionally=2C I
> acce
> t any and all new information
> hat may correct anything that I may misstate.
> A few days before Scott made his intitial flight=2C I asked him where
> he
> ad his main wing's and
> is h. stabilizers set at (since the Oshkosh photos made the h.s. look like
> they were too high)
> is answer to me was " the main wing is set at where Bryan (@ Kolb Aircraft
> told him to set them."
> e went on to say "the h. stabilizers are set like the factory recommends
> 2C but after he's flown
> or awhile=2C he can adjust that setting later. (I wish!!)
> So=2C at this point=2C as far as I know=2C he had the wing incidenc
> es and
> hor. stabilizers incidences set
> ccording to the factory recommended locations!
> Next=2C when I read one of the news reports from one of the local new
> s s
> urces=2C I saw where they
> aid "according to the initial investigators=2C there didn't 'appear' to
> be
> anything wrong with the
> irplane. That would seem to make sense=2C knowing what a perfectionist
> Sc
> tt was.
> The weather was basically calm=2C although at 8:00pm=2C when the acc
> ident
> happened=2C twilight was
> etting. Light=2C however=2C is NOT likely to be a factor.
> From discussing this situation with 'others'=2C I have been told Scott
> ha
> some introductory flights
> n a MkIII. Most likely=2C Scott would not have flown solo during this
> int
> oductory flight.
> In one of the news articles=2C it mentioned Scott got his Sport Pilot
> li
> ense last year. This would
> ndicate he probably didn't have a lot of flying time=2C especially when
> yo
> consider he was spending
> lot of time trying to finish building his plane! Scott was=2C you coul
> d
> ay=2C 'a low-time' pilot.
> So=2C up to this point=2C the plane itself=2C the weather=2C the
> lighting
> 2C and the wing's incidences=2C don't appear
> o have caused the accident.
> What's left?? According to Carol=3B Scott took off and flew around a
> cou
> le of times=2C and when he came
> n to land=2C it just nose-dived in. It landed initially on the pacemen
> t
> 2C but continued to tumble onto the
> rass.
> What does this tell us? If Carol is complete in her description=2C and
> a
> l Scott did was "fly around a
> ouple of times" =2C and then try to land=2C this tells us he did NOT
> climb
> to altitude and explore the plane's
> lying parameters. It primarily tells us he did not find out the plane's
> E
> ACT stall speed=2C and now we'll
> ever know!
> With the fact that Scott was=3B
> ) a low-time pilot=2C and
> ) flying a plane that he may not have known the stall speed of
> ) the mishap occurred at the runway threshold=2C coming in for his 1st
> lan
> ing
> I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final=2C where it nose
> -di
> ed into the runway=2C and rolled.
> If these events are indeed accurate and correct=2C I am very sad=2C
> becau
> e they seem to be so avoidable.
> will miss Scott. I'm am sorry he misjudged the situation=2C and let it
> g
> t out of control (if these facts
> re accurate).
> Training=2C people=2C training!! Having crashed an ultralight simil
> ar to
> these circumstances=2C all I can say
> s these accidents can be avoided=2C or at least minimized with proper fl
> ig
> t education.
> These are the facts as I've been able to acertain. If anyone knows more
> 2C please share it with us.
> f I've mistated something=2C please correct the record.
> Best regards to all=2C
> ike Welch
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________
> ________
>
> ime: 05:36:35 PM PST US
> ubject: Kolb-List: Re: Here's what I have gathered;
> rom: "ces308" <ces308@ldaco.com>
>
> hank you Mike,
> I am sorry for Scott,but it does appear he made a terrible mistake,however
> ,It's
> ice to here there doesn't appear to have been a fault of the aircraft.
> These are fun airplanes to fly,but to an even greater degree because of th
> ere
> ack
> f weight to keep things going,you need to be very aware of your airspeed
> n final...where my 172 flies right through a wind gust,my M3X will stop fl
> ying
> nd you can never forget that.
> Thanks again for the information...every one CAN learn from this ,if they
>
> isten.
> chris ambrose
> 3X/Jabiru 150.3 hrs 2500. total
> 327CS
>
> ead this topic online here:
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312697#312697
>
> _______________________________ Message 10 _____________________________
> _______
>
> ime: 05:42:23 PM PST US
> ubject: Kolb-List: Re: Here's what I have gathered;
> rom: "Ralph B" <ul15@juno.com>
>
> ike, I'm not an accident investigator either, but I do know that many fata
> l
> ccidents
> ccur due to stall-spins on landing. I was once told, "If there is any
> ne thing to remember about flying, it's airspeed". This is especially true
> upon
> anding. It would be better to come in hot and use up runway than to bend
> p your airplane or hurt yourself. It's a fine line sometimes to slow it up
> or
> o off the end of a short runway. I tend to keep more speed than most pilot
> s
> nd maybe this has saved me a few times. Kolb's, like other light aircraft
> have
> ore built-in drag than heavy and clean ones. They tend to lose speed more
>
> uickly.
> his means keeping the power on and nose down until it's on the ground.
> t's all about speed. Without that, the wings don't lift.
> Ralph B
> --------
> alph B
> riginal Firestar 447
> 91493 E-AB
> 000 hours
> 3 years flying it
> olbra 912UL
> 20386
> years flying it
> 20 hrs
>
> ead this topic online here:
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312698#312698
>
> _______________________________ Message 11 _____________________________
> _______
>
> ime: 07:25:38 PM PST US
> rom: "PCKing" <pc.king@comcast.net>
> ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered;
> Mike,
> Thank you.
> Brian Carpenter (Rainbow Aviation) just did a webinar titled "GA to LSA:
>
> ake a Safe Transition" He makes a compelling case for maintaining
> irspeed on final because of the low mass and high drag of the fat
> ltralight LSAs. He describes them as a cotton ball compared to the GA
> olf ball. The highest percentage of LSA accidents occur with GA pilots
> t the stick.
> The webinar is archived at
> http://www.eaavideo.org/channel.aspx?ch=ch_webinars
> Peter C. King
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mike Welch
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 7:48 PM
> Subject: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered;
>
> List members, I have had many members ask me to bring this subject
> atter out in the
> open. Plus, there are way too many people now, for me to reply to.
> approaching 30+)
> Here is what I have this far!!
>
> My initial thought was to discuss Scott's accident openly with this
> ist, but then I thought
> I'd be criticized by someone for acting like an investigator. Well,
> 'm NOT an investigator,
> but I certainly am curious about the facts that caused Scott's death,
> specially since I do
> not want to duplicate them.
> Then, I thought maybe the subject would be best discussed privately
> etween those only
> who show an interest. Last count, I've had about 14 responders, so
> aybe we should just
> bring this out in the open.
>
> (I had the same concern regarding John Ratcliffe's accident a few
> onths ago. Yet, I didn't
> say anything, and John was soon forgotten, it appears. I did some
> hecking on his situation,
> and it seems he must have stalled near turning base to final, and
> osed it in.)
>
> With regard to Scott, here is what I have found out. This is by NO
> eans any kind of official
> report, nor do I profess to have all the answers. Additionally, I
> ccept any and all new information
> that may correct anything that I may misstate.
>
> A few days before Scott made his intitial flight, I asked him where
> e had his main wing's and
> his h. stabilizers set at (since the Oshkosh photos made the h.s. look
> ike they were too high)
> His answer to me was " the main wing is set at where Bryan (@ Kolb
> ircraft) told him to set them."
> He went on to say "the h. stabilizers are set like the factory
> ecommends, but after he's flown
> for awhile, he can adjust that setting later. (I wish!!)
> So, at this point, as far as I know, he had the wing incidences and
> or. stabilizers incidences set
> according to the factory recommended locations!
>
> Next, when I read one of the news reports from one of the local
> ews sources, I saw where they
> said "according to the initial investigators, there didn't 'appear' to
> e anything wrong with the
> airplane. That would seem to make sense, knowing what a perfectionist
> cott was.
>
> The weather was basically calm, although at 8:00pm, when the
> ccident happened, twilight was
> setting. Light, however, is NOT likely to be a factor.
>
> From discussing this situation with 'others', I have been told Scott
> ad some introductory flights
> in a MkIII. Most likely, Scott would not have flown solo during this
> ntroductory flight.
> In one of the news articles, it mentioned Scott got his Sport Pilot
> icense last year. This would
> indicate he probably didn't have a lot of flying time, especially when
> ou consider he was spending
> a lot of time trying to finish building his plane! Scott was, you
> ould say, 'a low-time' pilot.
>
> So, up to this point, the plane itself, the weather, the lighting,
> nd the wing's incidences, don't appear
> to have caused the accident.
>
> What's left?? According to Carol; Scott took off and flew around a
> ouple of times, and when he came
> in to land, it just nose-dived in. It landed initially on the
> acement, but continued to tumble onto the
> grass.
> What does this tell us? If Carol is complete in her description,
> nd all Scott did was "fly around a
> couple of times" , and then try to land, this tells us he did NOT
> limb to altitude and explore the plane's
> flying parameters. It primarily tells us he did not find out the
> lane's EXACT stall speed, and now we'll
> never know!
>
> With the fact that Scott was;
> A) a low-time pilot, and
> B) flying a plane that he may not have known the stall speed of
> C) the mishap occurred at the runway threshold, coming in for his 1st
> anding
>
> I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final, where it
> ose-dived into the runway, and rolled.
>
> If these events are indeed accurate and correct, I am very sad,
> ecause they seem to be so avoidable.
> I will miss Scott. I'm am sorry he misjudged the situation, and let
> t get out of control (if these facts
> are accurate).
>
> Training, people, training!! Having crashed an ultralight similar
> o these circumstances, all I can say
> is these accidents can be avoided, or at least minimized with proper
> light education.
>
> These are the facts as I've been able to acertain. If anyone knows
> ore, please share it with us.
> If I've mistated something, please correct the record.
>
> Best regards to all,
> Mike Welch
>
>
> _______________________________ Message 12 _____________________________
> _______
>
> ime: 07:47:04 PM PST US
> rom: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
> Mike W:
> Have you discussed your findings with the NTSB?
> Maybe your information would help in their investigation and their
> etermination of the cause of the accident.
> john h
> kIII
> ock House, OR
> I have tried to find out exactly what happened to cause Scott's
> atal crash.
> Why? Because it matters a HELL of a lot to me!! At first, I thought
> 'd share what
> I've found with the entire list, then, I thought someone may gripe
> bout it.
>
> So, if anyone wants to know some of the details about what happened,
> ncluding
> what Scott and I discussed a few days prior to his maiden flight,
> mail me off
> the Kolb list, and I will share with you what I have found out.
>
> Mike Welch
>
> ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________
> ________
>
> ime: 07:56:23 PM PST US
> rom: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
> ubject: RE: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered;
>
> eter=2C
> Certainly there is no disputing that some GA pilots do seem to have trou
> b
> e
> ransitioning from the factory iron to the lighter=2C less mass SLA or li
> gh
> planes.
> However=2C in Scott's case=2C I'm afraid that "transitioning" wasn't
> the
> ssue=2C because
> ince he only got his Sport Pilot license last year=2C he couldn't have
> had
> very many
> ours in GA airplanes. At least=2C that's what I'm led to believe.
> Additionally=2C Carol described him as 'coming in for a landing' and th
> en
> he sort of
> nose-dived". This scenario is much more indicative of an approach-to-land
> ng-
> tall=2C rather than the typical GA to LSA failure to handle the mass dif
> fe
> ences
> etween the two (at touchdown).
> Airspeed is one thing you cannot ignor when flying an airplane=2C lest
> th
> ground
> ise up and smite thee!!!
> Mike Welch
>
> ike=2C
> Thank you.
> Brian Carpenter (Rainbow Aviation) just did a webinar titled "GA to LSA:
> Ma
> e a Safe Transition" He makes a compelling case for maintaining airspeed
> o
> final because of the low mass and high drag of the fat ultralight LSAs.
> H
> describes them as a cotton ball compared to the GA golf ball. The highest
> percentage of LSA accidents occur with GA pilots at the stick.
> The webinar is archived at
> http://www.eaavideo.org/channel.aspx?ch=ch_webinars
> Peter C. King
>
> ---- Original Message -----
> rom: Mike Welch
> ent: Thursday=2C September 16=2C 2010 7:48 PM
> ubject: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered=3B
> List members=2C I have had many members ask me to bring this subject ma
> tte
> out in the
> pen. Plus=2C there are way too many people now=2C for me to reply to.
> (a
> proaching 30+)
> ere is what I have this far!!
> My initial thought was to discuss Scott's accident openly with this list
> 2C but then I thought
> 'd be criticized by someone for acting like an investigator. Well=2C I'
> m
> OT an investigator=2C
> ut I certainly am curious about the facts that caused Scott's death=2C
> esp
> cially since I do
> ot want to duplicate them.
> Then=2C I thought maybe the subject would be best discussed privately
> bet
> een those only
> ho show an interest. Last count=2C I've had about 14 responders=2C so
> may
> e we should just
> ring this out in the open.
> (I had the same concern regarding John Ratcliffe's accident a few months
>
> go. Yet=2C I didn't
> ay anything=2C and John was soon forgotten=2C it appears. I did some
> chec
> ing on his situation=2C
> nd it seems he must have stalled near turning base to final=2C and nosed
> i
> in.)
> With regard to Scott=2C here is what I have found out. This is by NO
> me
> ns any kind of official
> eport=2C nor do I profess to have all the answers. Additionally=2C I
> acce
> t any and all new information
> hat may correct anything that I may misstate.
> A few days before Scott made his intitial flight=2C I asked him where
> he
> ad his main wing's and
> is h. stabilizers set at (since the Oshkosh photos made the h.s. look like
> they were too high)
> is answer to me was " the main wing is set at where Bryan (@ Kolb Aircraft
> told him to set them."
> e went on to say "the h. stabilizers are set like the factory recommends
> 2C but after he's flown
> or awhile=2C he can adjust that setting later. (I wish!!)
> So=2C at this point=2C as far as I know=2C he had the wing incidenc
> es and
> hor. stabilizers incidences set
> ccording to the factory recommended locations!
> Next=2C when I read one of the news reports from one of the local new
> s s
> urces=2C I saw where they
> aid "according to the initial investigators=2C there didn't 'appear' to
> be
> anything wrong with the
> irplane. That would seem to make sense=2C knowing what a perfectionist
> Sc
> tt was.
> The weather was basically calm=2C although at 8:00pm=2C when the acc
> ident
> happened=2C twilight was
> etting. Light=2C however=2C is NOT likely to be a factor.
> From discussing this situation with 'others'=2C I have been told Scott
> ha
> some introductory flights
> n a MkIII. Most likely=2C Scott would not have flown solo during this
> int
> oductory flight.
> In one of the news articles=2C it mentioned Scott got his Sport Pilot
> li
> ense last year. This would
> ndicate he probably didn't have a lot of flying time=2C especially when
> yo
> consider he was spending
> lot of time trying to finish building his plane! Scott was=2C you coul
> d
> ay=2C 'a low-time' pilot.
> So=2C up to this point=2C the plane itself=2C the weather=2C the
> lighting
> 2C and the wing's incidences=2C don't appear
> o have caused the accident.
> What's left?? According to Carol=3B Scott took off and flew around a
> cou
> le of times=2C and when he came
> n to land=2C it just nose-dived in. It landed initially on the pacemen
> t
> 2C but continued to tumble onto the
> rass.
> What does this tell us? If Carol is complete in her description=2C and
> a
> l Scott did was "fly around a
> ouple of times" =2C and then try to land=2C this tells us he did NOT
> climb
> to altitude and explore the plane's
> lying parameters. It primarily tells us he did not find out the plane's
> E
> ACT stall speed=2C and now we'll
> ever know!
> With the fact that Scott was=3B
> ) a low-time pilot=2C and
> ) flying a plane that he may not have known the stall speed of
> ) the mishap occurred at the runway threshold=2C coming in for his 1st
> lan
> ing
> I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final=2C where it nose
> -di
> ed into the runway=2C and rolled.
> If these events are indeed accurate and correct=2C I am very sad=2C
> becau
> e they seem to be so avoidable.
> will miss Scott. I'm am sorry he misjudged the situation=2C and let it
> g
> t out of control (if these facts
> re accurate).
> Training=2C people=2C training!! Having crashed an ultralight simil
> ar to
> these circumstances=2C all I can say
> s these accidents can be avoided=2C or at least minimized with proper fl
> ig
> t education.
> These are the facts as I've been able to acertain. If anyone knows more
> 2C please share it with us.
> f I've mistated something=2C please correct the record.
> Best regards to all=2C
> ike Welch
>
> ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.
> om/Navigator?Kolb-List
> ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> ref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________
> ________
>
> ime: 08:03:33 PM PST US
> ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
> rom: Daniel Myers <h20maule@hotmail.com>
> Class move John I like it
> aniel
> Sent from my iPhone
> On Sep 16=2C 2010=2C at 3:23 PM=2C "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.co
> m> wrot
> :
> > Mike W:
>
> Have you discussed your findings with the NTSB?
>
> Maybe your information would help in their investigation and their determ
> nation of the cause of the accident.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Rock House=2C OR
> I have tried to find out exactly what happened to cause Scott's fatal
>
> rash.
> Why? Because it matters a HELL of a lot to me!! At first=2C I thought
> I
> d share what
> I've found with the entire list=2C then=2C I thought someone may grip
> e ab
> ut it.
>
> So=2C if anyone wants to know some of the details about what happened
> 2C including
> what Scott and I discussed a few days prior to his maiden flight=2C ema
> il
> me off
> the Kolb list=2C and I will share with you what I have found out.
>
> Mike Welch
>
>
> ========
> ========
> ========
> ========
>
> ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________
> ________
>
> ime: 08:09:48 PM PST US
> rom: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
> ubject: RE: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
>
> Mike W:
> >Have you discussed your findings with the NTSB?
> >Maybe your information would help in their investigation and their determ
> i
> ation of >the cause of the accident.
> >john h
> mkIII
> John H=2C
> No=2C I haven't=2C but I will be calling them tomorrow. But the fac
> t is
> 2C I shared
> hat little information I dug up=2C and packaged into one concise email.
> T
> e
> nformation I gathered was either reading it in news articles relating to
> t
> e
> rash (in otherwords...public information)=2C my emails with Scott=2C
> just
> rior
> o his flight=2C and telephone conversations with a couple of Kolb list
> mem
> ers.
> I'm simply trying to save lives. Do you have a problem with my discuss
> i
> n?
> m I supposed to contact that NTSB to show a concern for Kolb pilots?
> Mike Welch
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________
> ________
>
> ime: 09:27:32 PM PST US
> ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered;
> rom: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
> Whoa! Let's get something straight. Gusts and wind affect glide path and
> round speed, not airspeed. The danger is inexperienced pilots who get
> ixated on a point and pull back on the stick in an effort to maintain glid
> e
> oward that point. The only thing that counts is airspeed, period.
> s I told Mike when we talked on Sunday, I have a mantra that goes on in my
> ead, and sometimes out loud, from the moment I pull power back from cruise
> o set up an approach. It's just two words, Hold 50. If you watched the
> ideo I made about the sight picture as it changes for flap settings, you
> an hear me over the sound of the 582 saying, "turning final, HOLD 50". It'
> s
> y choice of approach airspeed for my Mk III based upon the stall speeds I
> ocumented. It makes absolutely no difference if I hold some power in
> eserve or close the throttle completely, it's HOLD 50 and it stays HOLD 50
> ntil I pull back on the stick to round out and let her settle to the
> round. If I'm a little too high on approach, which I actually prefer, I ca
> n
> lip Zulu Delta to lose altitude a little faster, and I still HOLD 50.
> Rick Girard
> On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 9:18 PM, PCKing <pc.king@comcast.net> wrote:
> > Mike,
>
> Thank you.
>
> Brian Carpenter (Rainbow Aviation) just did a webinar titled "GA to LSA:
> Make a Safe Transition" He makes a compelling case for maintaining airspe
> ed
> on final because of the low mass and high drag of the fat ultralight LSAs
> ..
> He describes them as a cotton ball compared to the GA golf ball. The high
> est
> percentage of LSA accidents occur with GA pilots at the stick.
>
> The webinar is archived at
>
> http://www.eaavideo.org/channel.aspx?ch=ch_webinars
>
> Peter C. King
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
> *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 16, 2010 7:48 PM
> *Subject:* Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered;
>
> List members, I have had many members ask me to bring this subject matte
> r
> out in the
> open. Plus, there are way too many people now, for me to reply to.
> (approaching 30+)
> Here is what I have this far!!
>
> My initial thought was to discuss Scott's accident openly with this
> list, but then I thought
> I'd be criticized by someone for acting like an investigator. Well, I'm
> NOT an investigator,
> but I certainly am curious about the facts that caused Scott's death,
> especially since I do
> not want to duplicate them.
> Then, I thought maybe the subject would be best discussed privately
> between those only
> who show an interest. Last count, I've had about 14 responders, so maybe
> we should just
> bring this out in the open.
>
> (I had the same concern regarding John Ratcliffe's accident a few month
> s
> ago. Yet, I didn't
> say anything, and John was soon forgotten, it appears. I did some checki
> ng
> on his situation,
> and it seems he must have stalled near turning base to final, and nosed
> it
> in.)
>
> With regard to Scott, here is what I have found out. This is by NO
> means any kind of official
> report, nor do I profess to have all the answers. Additionally, I accept
> any and all new information
> that may correct anything that I may misstate.
>
> A few days before Scott made his intitial flight, I asked him where he
> had his main wing's and
> his h. stabilizers set at (since the Oshkosh photos made the h.s. look li
> ke
> they were too high)
> His answer to me was " the main wing is set at where Bryan (@ Kolb
> Aircraft) told him to set them."
> He went on to say "the h. stabilizers are set like the factory recommends
> ,
> but after he's flown
> for awhile, he can adjust that setting later. (I wish!!)
> So, at this point, as far as I know, he had the wing incidences and hor
> ..
> stabilizers incidences set
> according to the factory recommended locations!
>
> Next, when I read one of the news reports from one of the local news
> sources, I saw where they
> said "according to the initial investigators, there didn't 'appear' to be
> anything wrong with the
> airplane. That would seem to make sense, knowing what a perfectionist
> Scott was.
>
> The weather was basically calm, although at 8:00pm, when the accident
> happened, twilight was
> setting. Light, however, is NOT likely to be a factor.
>
> From discussing this situation with 'others', I have been told Scott ha
> d
> some introductory flights
> in a MkIII. Most likely, Scott would not have flown solo during this
> introductory flight.
> In one of the news articles, it mentioned Scott got his Sport Pilot
> license last year. This would
> indicate he probably didn't have a lot of flying time, especially when yo
> u
> consider he was spending
> a lot of time trying to finish building his plane! Scott was, you could
> say, 'a low-time' pilot.
>
> So, up to this point, the plane itself, the weather, the lighting, and
> the wing's incidences, don't appear
> to have caused the accident.
>
> What's left?? According to Carol; Scott took off and flew around a
> couple of times, and when he came
> in to land, it just nose-dived in. It landed initially on the pacement,
> but continued to tumble onto the
> grass.
> What does this tell us? If Carol is complete in her description, and
> all
> Scott did was "fly around a
> couple of times" , and then try to land, this tells us he did NOT climb
> to
> altitude and explore the plane's
> flying parameters. It primarily tells us he did not find out the plane's
> EXACT stall speed, and now we'll
> never know!
>
> With the fact that Scott was;
> A) a low-time pilot, and
> B) flying a plane that he may not have known the stall speed of
> C) the mishap occurred at the runway threshold, coming in for his 1st
> landing
>
> I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final, where it
> nose-dived into the runway, and rolled.
>
> If these events are indeed accurate and correct, I am very sad, because
> they seem to be so avoidable.
> I will miss Scott. I'm am sorry he misjudged the situation, and let it
> get
> out of control (if these facts
> are accurate).
>
> Training, people, training!! Having crashed an ultralight similar to
> these circumstances, all I can say
> is these accidents can be avoided, or at least minimized with proper flig
> ht
> education.
>
> These are the facts as I've been able to acertain. If anyone knows mor
> e,
> please share it with us.
> If I've mistated something, please correct the record.
>
> Best regards to all,
> Mike Welch
>
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronic
> s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
> -
> ulu Delta
> olb Mk IIIC
> 82 Gray head
> .00 C gearbox
> blade WD
> hanks, Homer GBYM
> It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unab
> le
> o imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
> - G.K. Chesterton
> ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________
> ________
>
> ime: 09:39:45 PM PST US
> ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
> rom: Daniel Myers <h20maule@hotmail.com>
> Mike=2C my uncle died in my kolb and no one knows what happened except
> for
> im. Kolbs Are great planes but are very unforgiving. I continue to fly Kol
> s only because I know not to get close to that stall speed. I have only ow
> ed two Kolbs but I know the limits..this guy was on his first flight=2C
> it
> s a terrible situation because he didn't know the kolb and it's limits.
> aniel
> Sent from my iPhoned
> On Sep 16=2C 2010=2C at 11:06 PM=2C Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.
> com> wr
> te:
> > >Mike W:
>
> >Have you discussed your findings with the NTSB?
>
> >Maybe your information would help in their investigation and their deter
> ination of >the cause of the accident.
>
> >john h
> >mkIII
>
> John H=2C
>
> No=2C I haven't=2C but I will be calling them tomorrow. But the fa
> ct i
> =2C I shared
> what little information I dug up=2C and packaged into one concise email
> .
> The
> information I gathered was either reading it in news articles relating to
> the
> crash (in otherwords...public information)=2C my emails with Scott=2C
> jus
> prior
> to his flight=2C and telephone conversations with a couple of Kolb list
> m
> mbers.
>
> I'm simply trying to save lives. Do you have a problem with my discus
> ion?
> Am I supposed to contact that NTSB to show a concern for Kolb pilots?
>
> Mike Welch
>
>
> ========
> ========
> ========
> ========
>
> ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________
> ________
>
> ime: 10:01:06 PM PST US
> rom: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
> ubject: RE: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
>
> ike=2C my uncle died in my kolb and no one knows what happened except fo
> r
> im. Kolbs Are great planes but are very unforgiving. I continue to fly Kol
> s only because I know not to get close to that stall speed. I have only ow
> ed two Kolbs but I know the limits..this guy was on his first flight=2C
> it
> s a terrible situation because he didn't know the kolb and it's limits.
> aniel
> Daniel=2C
> You are exactly right (with your last statement). I am afraid it is pos
> s
> ble it is as simple as
> e may have simply misjudged what he was doing. Of course=2C we will nev
> er
> know the whole truth now.
> It is only my intention to help educate those of us who fly=2C or are
> yet
> to fly=2C their Kolb aircraft.
> rashing and dieing does little good to both the families left behind and
> t
> e reputation of the aircraft. I
> ould like to reduce the damage by analyzing what we know=2C and learn fr
> om
> our errors. Believe it or
> ot=2C there may be people who have a problem with that.
> Mike Welch
> y condolences regarding your uncle=2C Daniel.
>
>
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> ________________________________ Message 4
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:02:30 AM PST US
> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Upgrading from current 4.00-6 "Garden" tires.
> From: "gotime242" <dylanshine@gmail.com>
>
>
> Thanks, i just wanted to be sure it was ok/safe to go wider than
> recommended
> or
> than the width of the rim since there is only 4.00's on there now.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312833#312833
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 5
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:05:19 AM PST US
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: kolb stall
> From: Richard Neilsen <neilsenrm@gmail.com>
>
> Hey All
>
> There has been a lot of good discussion since Scott's tragic accident. My
> concern is that it leaves the impression that there is a problem or bad
> flight characteristic with our airplanes which there is not.
>
> I'm not a major high time pilot but I have had the opportunity to fly quite
> a few different airplanes and none are as good as our Kolbs. Our planes
> have
> tremendous short field capabilities that when fully utilized (flaps and no
> power landings) does require a high level of precision. Pilots new to the
> Kolb flight characteristics will have problems with these flight
> characteristics no matter how skilled they are in other aircraft. Land with
> power and stay away from the flaps till you get very good at it. Then very
> gradually land with less power OR using more flaps. Don't progress too
> quickly. I have a set of fully retracted Kolb landing gear legs that I bent
> when I progressed to full flaps and no power way too quickly.
> Flight instructors not used to our Kolbs don't train us how to handle our
> Kolbs properly/safely. I recently got my check ride with a GA instructor in
> my Kolb. I was praised for how well I flew the plane in everything but how
> I
> flew very short final. He felt I rounded out way too low and with too much
> airspeed. I think this is a very common mistake that most non
> Kolb instructors will make. Let me also explain I did fly a bit faster
> approach rounded out lower because my instructor was a good 100 lbs heaver
> than anyone I had ever flown in my plane and I was using a very long 2500
> ft
> grass strip. Yes we were a bit over gross weight.
>
> Rick Neilsen
> 1st Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
>
> ________________________________ Message 6
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:16:39 AM PST US
> From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: kolb stall
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
> (09/17/2010 16:35)
>
> > I know nothing of the results of the investigations, but a Kolb in a nose
> > high attitude that runs out of airspeed will drop the nose and normally a
> > wing....
>
> Especially if it's a new airplane that might not be properly trimmed
> out yet.
>
> -Dana
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 7
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 03:41:04 PM PST US
> From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Kolb-List: airspeed indicator calibration
>
>
> Kolb guys=2C
>
> I am in the process of installing all the instruments in my MkIII. One o
> f the
> instruments is an analog airspeed indicator. It's a standard=2C typical ty
> pe of indicator that uses
> ram air to determine it's reading=2C by way of a pitot tube.
>
> Out of the box=2C I can't imagine it can be very accurate=2C can it? I m
> ean=2C everybody will have
> their own unique design in installing one of these=2C so I would think that
> each installation would
> be off a little from someone else's installation. Or=2C are they much more
> uniform in their
> readings?
>
> I have the exact placement in my panel and the routing of the tubing pret
> ty much figured out.
>
> For those guys that have installed an airspeed indicator=2C did you calib
> rate it in any way first=2C
> or did you just stick it in the plane and live with whatever reading it say
> s once you start
> flying the plane?
>
> I thought what I would do is essentially build the whole system=2C and ge
> t someone to drive
> a car down the road=2C with me hanging the A/S indicator's pitot tube out t
> he window. While this
> may seem somewhat silly=2C at least I could an idea how accurate it might b
> e. At least it's a start=2C
> right? Has anybody done this?? Or is it a waste of time?
>
> For an instrument that has so much riding on it=2C and if new=2C hasn't r
> eally proven itself for
> accuracy=2C it seems to me a guy ought to verify in some way it comes "clos
> e" to the correct
> airspeed.
>
> Any thoughts or experiences would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
>
> Mike Welch
> MkIII
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 8
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:02:46 PM PST US
> From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: airspeed indicator calibration
>
>
> The instrument itself should be quite accurate, but pressure
> variations at the pitot and static sources can throw it way off. The
> pressure field around a moving car will make any such calibration
> meaningless, too. Put it in the plane. You can use your GPS to
> calibrate it on a dead calm day, or average readings into and with a
> steady wind.
>
> -Dana
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com> wrote:
> (09/18/2010 18:35)
>
> >
> > Kolb guys,
> >
> > I am in the process of installing all the instruments in my MkIII. One
> of
> the
> > instruments is an analog airspeed indicator. It's a standard, typical
> type of
> indicator that uses
> > ram air to determine it's reading, by way of a pitot tube.
> >
> > Out of the box, I can't imagine it can be very accurate, can it? I
> mean, everybody
> will have
> > their own unique design in installing one of these, so I would think that
> each
> installation would
> > be off a little from someone else's installation. Or, are they much more
> uniform
> in their
> > readings?
> >
> > I have the exact placement in my panel and the routing of the tubing
> pretty
> much figured out.
> >
> > For those guys that have installed an airspeed indicator, did you
> calibrate
> it in any way first,
> > or did you just stick it in the plane and live with whatever reading it
> says
> once you start
> > flying the plane?
> >
> > I thought what I would do is essentially build the whole system, and
> get
> someone
> to drive
> > a car down the road, with me hanging the A/S indicator's pitot tube out
> the window.
> While this
> > may seem somewhat silly, at least I could an idea how accurate it might
> be.
> At least it's a start,
> > right? Has anybody done this?? Or is it a waste of time?
> >
> > For an instrument that has so much riding on it, and if new, hasn't
> really
> proven itself for
> > accuracy, it seems to me a guy ought to verify in some way it comes
> "close" to
> the correct
> > airspeed.
> >
> > Any thoughts or experiences would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
> >
> > Mike Welch
> > MkIII
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 9
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:28:51 PM PST US
> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: airspeed indicator calibration
> From: "Richard Pike" <richard@bcchapel.org>
>
>
> IMO, it is almost impossible to calibrate an airspeed indicator unless it
> is
> in
> the airplane, because of the variables involved in each installation. When
> we
> first flew the FSII, we had screwy airspeed readings, and it turned out we
> had
> two problems: one was with the indicator, the other was the pitot location.
> Fixed the location of the pitot, but the numbers were till odd, so tried an
> experiment.
>
>
> Strapped a piece of 1 1/2" aluminum tubing onto the roof rack of the Jeep
> so
> that
> the forward end was ahead of and well above the hood (no bow wave allowed)
> and ran a piece of vinyl tubing to the airspeed indicator. Wrote down the
> numbers
> at various speeds, then swapped out the airspeed indicator with another
> that
> was known to be good, did it again, and there was quite a disparity.
>
> But all that did was prove that the original airspeed indicator was bad.
> Bought
> a new one and put it in the airplane and flew it, and compared it to the
> GPS.
> It was good enough that we left it alone.
>
> Wonder if we hurt it in the wreck? Guess we'll find out in a couple months.
>
> Richard Pike
> MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312875#312875
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 10
> ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 09:27:46 PM PST US
> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Here's what I have gathered;
> From: "R. Hankins" <rphanks@grantspass.com>
>
>
> "The kolb stall is very unforgiving-trust me... "
>
> h20maule, Your statement is incorrect. It should read: "The stall of my
> kolb
> is very unforgiving-trust me... ".
>
> I have never flown your kolb, but I have flown 2 MarkIIIs, 4 firestars and
> a
> Kolbra
> and none of them had unforgiving stall characteristics. The worst one was
> mine when I had the VGs mounted too far back. This was the only kolb I
> have
> flown that had a sharp stall break, but recovery was still quick,
> straightforward
> and uneventful. Moving the VGs forward gave me back my gentle airplane.
>
> Unforgiving is a pretty subjective term. Can you describe what it is
> about
> stalls
> in your kolb that makes them less than desirable? Maybe there is something
> unique about your plane that can be changed to improve its handling?
>
> --------
> Roger in Oregon
> 1992 KXP 503 - N1782C
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312882#312882
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Kolb Mk IIIC
582 Gray head
4.00 C gearbox
3 blade WD
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable
to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
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Subject: | Re: airspeed indicator calibration |
Another way to test the ASI itself is with a manometer which you can build easily
enough but Richard Pike's method was probably more fun.
On my Slingshot, the most accurate airspeed indication was achieved by having two
static sources. One is the standard opening in the aft end of the static tube
portion of the combo pitot/static tube. The static tube going from there to
the back of the ASI also has an open Tee fitting in it to read the ambient pressure
in the nose cone. The average of these two soruces give results that are
equal to TAS at a density altitude of 1500', which is quite close enoughin my
book.
On the Allegro 2000 SLSA I once part owned, I was able to adjust the indication
by altering the static pressure perceived by the instrument. In this case there
were two static ports, one on each side of the fuselage. From the factory it
indicated as much as 13% faster than it should have, which meant that the static
pressure was lower than it should have been. Since the static ports were
flush with the fuselage, I put a spot of RTV just aft of the static ports creating
a slightly higher pressure area at the ports. After a few trial and error
modifications of the size of the RTV bump, I got the IAS to read within 2% throughout
the normal speed range.
Getting an accurate airspeed indication is sometimes a bit of an art but mostly
just trial and error, one of the joys of experimenting.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312899#312899
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Subject: | Re: airspeed indicator calibration |
> On your first ride in your new bird keep one eye on the ASI during takeoff.
The speed you see just
at the point you can coax it off the ground will suffice for an initial stall speed.
The actual numbers are not as important as stability and repeatability. My pitot
will sometimes get
a bug in it even though I plug it. You can tell because the needle will stutter
a bit and then suddenly start
indicating again. I figure mine is off some but that is WAY down on my list of
things to do.
It's like your age, knowing it won't change it.
BB
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Subject: | Re: airspeed indicator calibration |
Thom Riddle wrote:
> .., the most accurate airspeed indication was achieved by having two static sources.
One is the standard opening in the aft end of the static tube portion
of the combo pitot/static tube. The static tube going from there to the back of
the ASI also has an open Tee fitting in it to read the ambient pressure in the
nose cone. The average of these two soruces give results that are equal to
TAS at a density altitude of 1500', which is quite close enoughin my book.
That is exactly what I did also. It happened to be very accurate. When I take
my doors off though it reads about 10mph too low.
--------
Scott Olendorf
Original Firestar, Rotax 447, Powerfin prop
Schenectady, NY
http://sites.google.com/site/kolbfirestar/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312914#312914
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> I have decided to unsubscribe to the Matronics lists, there is nearly no
> traffic and no content to red.
>
> Chris Norman, CEO
> www.digitalrealitycorp.com
>
> owner www.goflying.co
Well, Chris Norman, CEO, are you a Kolb builder and flyer?
I know a good "proof reeding" web page you might enjoy. ;-)
BTW: Gary Haley and Henry Curd departed the Rock House this morning for
Houston. Gary is a MKIII owner.
Ken Korenik, former FS owner and flyer, departed next for DFW area.
Mike and Jan Marker, FS owner and flyer, departed last for Blanding, UT, and
Los Lunas, NM.
Boyd Young departed for Brigham City, UT, last Friday, in his MKIII.
Roger Hankins will arrive the Rock House today. Roger flies a Kolb KXP.
Roger's KXP does not have an unforgiving stall. Neither does my MKIII.
john h - CEO of hauck's holler, alabama
mkIII
Rock House, OR
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Subject: | Re: airspeed indicator calibration |
> It's like your age, knowing it won't change it.
> BB
Bob B/Gang:
I like my ASI reading high. Watching that needle indicating 90 when it is
flying 60 is exhilarating.
I don't think anyone has mentioned during this ASI thread that is the ASI is
serviceable, but not calibrated to the aircraft, no matter what the
indicated airspeed is at stall, it will always stall at that indicated
airspeed under the same conditions.
I once asked Steve Whitman at Sun and Fun 1993, how he calibrated his ASI,
what static airpressure source he used. His replay was, "Right out the back
of the instrument." Said he was not concerned with his true airspeed and
the stall speed was always the same.
He did share with me that the cut the pitot tube at a 45 deg angle. Thought
that would give him a better indication at high angles of attack and slow
airspeeds.
john h
mkIII
Rock House, OR
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|
Kolbers,
A couple of comments. VG's will move the center of lift a little to the
rear. Also different planes of the same model will stall differently due to
differences in cg. Moving them to the rear will give a more gentle break
and/or mush. Move them forward, and the stall will be more pronounced.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
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Subject: | Re: Any KOLBs in South Florida? |
Hello all,
Just wanted to revive this thread from the dead.
Anyone still flying around S FL? I fly a FS 2 out of lantana airport and live in
west palm beach. It would be cool to meet up with some other kolb flyers.
Ill be flying mine for a couple more months and then probably selling it. Its very
airworthy, just not very pretty which is what i intend to change.
Anyway...let me know!
-Dylan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312922#312922
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Subject: | Re: airspeed indicator calibration |
> no matter what the indicated airspeed is at stall=2C it will always stall
at that indicated
> airspeed under the same conditions.
> john h
> mkIII
> Rock House=2C OR
John=2C guys=2C
You're right=2C John=2C and this IS an important point. When the A/S ind
icator is on it's
very first test flight=2C one would likely want to establish it's exact rea
ding while testing
an aircraft's stall speed. We want the "indicated aispeed" (IAS)=2C regard
less of whether or
not the A/S indicator is accurate for all flight speeds. If it read 35=2C
or 62=2C or whatever...(at stall)=2C
that's going to be that magic number to stay well above when shooting the f
irst landing. Yes?
Having never "test" flown anything=2C I would think the very first thing
a guy would do is
take the airplane to a safe altitude (2500'+ agl) and cafefully find the st
all=2C or possibly the
beginning of the stall=2C and note what his A/S indicator is reading. The
FAA reg that Rick G. shared
with us seemed to be very good advice. At least to me=2C I would think bef
ore a guy tried to land
his newly completed plane=2C he would want to know the indicated airspeed (
IAS)=2C and do his
darndest to stay above it. I have heard from some that 1.5 X IAS (at stall
) would be a good
choice in the early stages of flight testing.
Mike Welch
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Subject: | Re: Airspeed indicator calibration |
- Just an opinion from an observer with no experience.- It doesn't matt
er if the indicator is exact, as long as it's consistant.- You will still
have to determine take-off speed, stall speed, and safe landing speed base
d on the readings that the instrument is giving.- The indicator should be
reliable, consistant, and reasonably quick to respond.- If it gives the
same readings every time, it only applies to your plane, anyway.- Other t
han for navigation purposes, and comparison purposes, I don't think it matt
ers.- Somebody correct me on this.- And, there is always a Hall meter i
f you want to check.- $20, I think.
-
-------------------------
------------------- Bill Sullivan
-------------------------
------------------- Windsor Locks, Ct
.
-------------------------
------------------- FS 447
-
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Subject: | Re: airspeed indicator calibration |
Mike W/Gang:
Yes, about as basic as you can get to keep on flying.
I said earlier, I periodically stall my mkIII, in different
configurations, to keep me informed of the current stall speed.
Homer Kolb recommended in the 1984 Ultrastar Builders Guide to climb to
1,000 feet AGL on the first flight and check stall speed.
Stalling a Kolb is about as simple a maneuver as one can perform in an
airplane. Bring the power back to idle, bleed off airspeed until it
stalls. Probably all you will get is a little burble as it reaches
mush/stall speed and continue flying, either with a nug of the forward
stick, or nothing at all. About the only way I can get my Kolbs to do a
classic drop the nose and fall out of the sky type stall is chop power,
pull the nose up as high as I can until the airspeed bleeds off to about
zero and the Kolb falls out of the sky. Even then, a little forward
stick and she will fly immediately.
I believe one of the problems with inadvertently stalling a Kolb close
to the ground is the conditioned reflex to pull the stick back to make
it fly, because pushing the nose down close to the ground is unnatural.
Enjoying some cooler weather and overcast sky for the first time at the
Rock House.
john h
mkIII
At least to me, I would think before a guy tried to land
his newly completed plane, he would want to know the indicated
airspeed (IAS), and do his
darndest to stay above it. I have heard from some that 1.5 X IAS (at
stall) would be a good
choice in the early stages of flight testing.
Mike Welch
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Subject: | Re: airspeed indicator calibration |
>
> There are two methods of take off: the zoomie-zoomie type that RVs
use on paved runways and
the coax it off that old taildraggers use on grass. The zoomie guys
like a (10%?) margin before they rotate like the
big commercial tin cans. Due to circumstances the minimum/at stall
method is more appropriate for
grass strips, especially if you have limited horsepower.
Not so fancy strips may be a little bumpy which is to your advantage.
That last bump will launch you into the
barely flying zone. Now you can pick up a little speed in ground effect
before resuming a climb.
This is especially important when flying out of deep or wet snow.
-otherwise you may remain ground bound.
Also a great technique for escaping from that plowed field that you had
to plop into when the noise maker stopped.
I hate those big rocks.
It's really quite harmless to stagger the bird off the ground. Remember
the earth is still only a few inches away.
Can't get hurt.
BB
>
>
>
>
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Subject: | Re: RE: Kolb-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 09/18/10 |
No Traffic , I have 27050 emails from the matronics lists I am on Thats The
TRAFFIC I have for the last 12 months, enough for me but maybe your
requirements are higher?
Chris Davis
KXP 503 492 hrs
Glider Pilot
Disabled from crash building Firefly
----- Original Message ----
From: Go Flying <flying@goflying.co>
Sent: Sun, September 19, 2010 3:52:28 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: RE: Kolb-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 09/18/10
I have decided to unsubscribe to the Matronics lists, there is nearly no
traffic and no content to red.
Chris Norman, CEO
www.digitalrealitycorp.com
owner www.goflying.co
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kolb-List Digest
Server
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 1:58 AM
Subject: Kolb-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 09/18/10
*
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===============================================
----------------------------------------------------------
Kolb-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Sat 09/18/10: 10
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:12 AM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Fran Losey)
2. 03:36 AM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (william sullivan)
3. 05:34 AM - Re: Kolb-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 09/16/10
(icrashrc@aol.com)
4. 07:02 AM - Re: Upgrading from current 4.00-6 "Garden" tires.
(gotime242)
5. 07:05 AM - Re: Re: kolb stall (Richard Neilsen)
6. 07:16 AM - Re: Re: kolb stall (Dana Hague)
7. 03:41 PM - airspeed indicator calibration (Mike Welch)
8. 05:02 PM - Re: airspeed indicator calibration (Dana Hague)
9. 07:28 PM - Re: airspeed indicator calibration (Richard Pike)
10. 09:27 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (R. Hankins)
________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
Time: 03:12:52 AM PST US
From: Fran Losey <loseyf@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
On 9/17/2010 12:57 AM, Mike Welch wrote:
> Mike, my uncle died in my kolb and no one knows what happened except
> for him. Kolbs Are great planes but are very unforgiving. I continue
> to fly Kolbs only because I know not to get close to that stall speed.
> I have only owned two Kolbs but I know the limits..this guy was on his
> first flight, it's a terrible situation because he didn't know the
> kolb and it's limits.
> Daniel
>
> Daniel,
> You are exactly right (with your last statement). I am afraid it is
> possible it is as simple as
> he may have simply misjudged what he was doing. Of course, we will
> never know the whole truth now.
> It is only my intention to help educate those of us who fly, or are
> yet to fly, their Kolb aircraft.
> Crashing and dieing does little good to both the families left behind
> and the reputation of the aircraft. I
> would like to reduce the damage by analyzing what we know, and learn
> from our errors. Believe it or
> not, there may be people who have a problem with that.
> Mike Welch
> My condolences regarding your uncle, Daniel.
> *
>
>
> *
Mike and all,
Although some bantering seems to occur when sensitive discussions are
placed in the forum, I truly appreciate all feedback from all parties,
as I feel it refreshes my awareness as a pilot, and allows me to step
back for a minute, think about points that are stated, and reflect how
I would have handled (or not) such a situation. When this forum stops
these healthy (and surely painful) discussions, I will most likely leave
it...
I am in the middle of building right now, and although I did not know
Scott personally, can say I appreciated his contributions on this forum,
and felt in my gut he was a person that would give you the shirt off his
back, asking nothing in return.
Thanks for sharing, and listening. RIP Scott.
--
Sincerely, Fran Losey www.mykitlog.com\loseyf
________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
Time: 03:36:30 AM PST US
From: william sullivan <williamtsullivan@att.net>
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Scott Thompson's accident
- I think the current thread on the accident is good for the List.- Con
jecture will bring awareness of the peculiarities of the handling of low dr
ag, high lift, low weight aircraft.- The NTSB will eventually give the pa
rticulars.- Both will be good for all.- I hope someone will maintain Sc
ott's web site, as it is an excellent reference.- We all are going to mis
s him.
-
-------------------------
-------------------------
Bill Sullivan
-------------------------
-------------------------
-Windsor Locks, Ct.
-------------------------
-------------------------
FS 447
________________________________ Message 3
_____________________________________
Time: 05:34:54 AM PST US
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 09/16/10
From: icrashrc@aol.com
For those of you who don't know me, I am Scott's wife. I can assure you th
at when he was flying around the pattern that he tested the stall speed.
He gave me a list of the things he would do on his intial flight. One of
those was stall speed.
-----Original Message-----
From: Kolb-List Digest Server <kolb-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Fri, Sep 17, 2010 2:57 am
Subject: Kolb-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 09/16/10
*
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----------------------------------------------------------
Kolb-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Thu 09/16/10: 18
----------------------------------------------------------
oday's Message Index:
---------------------
1. 05:51 AM - That pesky ELSA re-registration problem (Richard Girard
)
2. 10:36 AM - Annual Condition Inspection checklist for Kolbra (Ralph
B)
3. 11:24 AM - Re: Annual Condition Inspection checklist for Kolbra (R
alph
)
4. 11:52 AM - Scott Thompson's accident (Mike Welch)
5. 02:04 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Mike Welch)
6. 02:20 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (PCKing)
7. 02:41 PM - my email address (Mike Welch)
8. 04:51 PM - Here's what I have gathered; (Mike Welch)
9. 05:36 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (ces308)
10. 05:42 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (Ralph B)
11. 07:25 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (PCKing)
12. 07:47 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (John Hauck)
13. 07:56 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (Mike Welch)
14. 08:03 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Daniel Myers)
15. 08:09 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Mike Welch)
16. 09:27 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (Richard Girard)
17. 09:39 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Daniel Myers)
18. 10:01 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Mike Welch)
_______________________________ Message 1 ______________________________
_______
ime: 05:51:16 AM PST US
ubject: Kolb-List: That pesky ELSA re-registration problem
rom: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
After much thought about how to make it legal to re-register an ELSA that
he owner has allowed the registration to expire under the terms of the new
ule I sent the following to the applicable FAA personnel this morning.
"Dear Sirs, There is a problem with the new rule for triennial
e-registration of aircraft when it is applied to experimental light sport
ircraft (ELSA) that were registered under the provisions of FAR 21.191
(1).
f an owner of an ELSA fails to re-register during the applicable period an
d
he registration expires there is no legal means to register the aircraft
gain.
AR 21.191 i(1) expired on January 3, 2008. Form 8050-88A (Affidavit of
wnership) that is required to be filed along with 8050-1 to register an
LSA has been revised so that the only two options for registering an ELSA
re through FAR 21.191 i(2) (aircraft built from a kit of a qualifying
pecial light sport aircraft (SLSA)) and FAR 21.190 (essentially for
anufacturers who need to register a prototype to do compliance testing of
n SLSA).
believe there is a simple way to fix this problem. Revise form 8050-88A
to
nclude an option to the effect, "this aircraft was previously registered
as
_______ under the provisions of FAR 21.191 i(1) and the paperwork is on
ile with the FAA". I believe wording like this or similar would allow an
rrant owner to re-register the aircraft following expiration with a minimu
m
f problems and prevent those who might try to use the provision to registe
r
n aircraft that had not previously been registered.
hank you for your time."
I did this after spending a good portion of yesterday morning talking and
riting to various officials in the FAA about the problem. It occurred to
me
ate last night that the easiest way to get something fixed when there is
a
roblem is to present a solution to those who can remedy it. What the heck,
t's worth a try.
Rick Girard
--
ulu Delta
olb Mk IIIC
82 Gray head
.00 C gearbox
blade WD
hanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unab
le
o imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________
________
ime: 10:36:54 AM PST US
ubject: Kolb-List: Annual Condition Inspection checklist for Kolbra
rom: "Ralph B" <ul15@juno.com>
ravis Brown from Kolb asked it I would post the Annual Condition inspectio
n
hecklist
or the Kolbra. This checklist will work for other Kolbs too.
Ralph B
--------
alph B
riginal Firestar 447
91493 E-AB
000 hours
3 years flying it
olbra 912UL
20386
years flying it
20 hrs
ead this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312658#312658
ttachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/annual_inspection_checklist_179.doc
_______________________________ Message 3 ______________________________
_______
ime: 11:24:48 AM PST US
ubject: Kolb-List: Re: Annual Condition Inspection checklist for Kolbra
rom: "Ralph B" <ul15@juno.com>
fter the inspection is finished, post these words in the aircraft logbook:
date
I certify this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with the scope
nd detail of appendix D to Part 43 and found to be in a condition for safe
peration.
Flight time: XXX.X hours
ame of inspector
ert #xxxxxxxx
--------
alph B
riginal Firestar 447
91493 E-AB
000 hours
3 years flying it
olbra 912UL
20386
years flying it
20 hrs
ead this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312666#312666
_______________________________ Message 4 ______________________________
_______
ime: 11:52:12 AM PST US
rom: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
ubject: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
olb guys=2C
I have tried to find out exactly what happened to cause Scott's fatal cr
a
h.
hy? Because it matters a HELL of a lot to me!! At first=2C I thought
I'd
share what
've found with the entire list=2C then=2C I thought someone may gripe
abou
it.
So=2C if anyone wants to know some of the details about what happened
=2C
ncluding
hat Scott and I discussed a few days prior to his maiden flight=2C email
m
off
he Kolb list=2C and I will share with you what I have found out.
Mike Welch
________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________
________
ime: 02:04:08 PM PST US
rom: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
ubject: RE: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
ist members=2C
I've had a few guys check in=2C but I'm waiting a little while for
few more before we get the conversation going.
The primary reason is for the 'off-list' discussion is I can picture
omeone asking me "who the hell do you think you are.....?" Me? Nobody.
ust a friend of Scott's that would like to figure out what happened=2C
hat's all. I sick and damn tired of hearing about my Kolb buddies
ieing. I'd like to find out why they died...and do my best not to repeat
heir 'mistakes'=2C without trying to pass judgement on them.
Mike Welch
________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________
________
ime: 02:20:48 PM PST US
rom: "PCKing" <pc.king@comcast.net>
ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
ike,
You may not have received many offline requests because everyone on the
ist doesn't have your email address.
I met Scott at AirVenture this year. We spoke about where to source
ileron and flap control seals. I was sad to hear that he'd passed away
est flying something he was so proud of.
I'd like to know what happened.
Peter C. King
c.king@comcast.net
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Welch
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 5:00 PM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
List members,
I've had a few guys check in, but I'm waiting a little while for
a few more before we get the conversation going.
The primary reason is for the 'off-list' discussion is I can picture
someone asking me "who the hell do you think you are.....?" Me?
obody.
Just a friend of Scott's that would like to figure out what happened,
that's all. I sick and damn tired of hearing about my Kolb buddies
dieing. I'd like to find out why they died...and do my best not to
epeat
their 'mistakes', without trying to pass judgement on them.
Mike Welch
_______________________________ Message 7 ______________________________
_______
ime: 02:41:30 PM PST US
rom: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
ubject: Kolb-List: my email address
y email address is=3B mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com (don't forget the '7'!!
!)
Mike Welch
________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________
________
ime: 04:51:45 PM PST US
rom: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
ubject: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered;
ist members=2C I have had many members ask me to bring this subject mat
te
out in the
pen. Plus=2C there are way too many people now=2C for me to reply to.
(a
proaching 30+)
ere is what I have this far!!
My initial thought was to discuss Scott's accident openly with this list
2C but then I thought
'd be criticized by someone for acting like an investigator. Well=2C I'
m
OT an investigator=2C
ut I certainly am curious about the facts that caused Scott's death=2C
esp
cially since I do
ot want to duplicate them.
Then=2C I thought maybe the subject would be best discussed privately
bet
een those only
ho show an interest. Last count=2C I've had about 14 responders=2C so
may
e we should just
ring this out in the open.
(I had the same concern regarding John Ratcliffe's accident a few months
go. Yet=2C I didn't
ay anything=2C and John was soon forgotten=2C it appears. I did some
chec
ing on his situation=2C
nd it seems he must have stalled near turning base to final=2C and nosed
i
in.)
With regard to Scott=2C here is what I have found out. This is by NO
me
ns any kind of official
eport=2C nor do I profess to have all the answers. Additionally=2C I
acce
t any and all new information
hat may correct anything that I may misstate.
A few days before Scott made his intitial flight=2C I asked him where
he
ad his main wing's and
is h. stabilizers set at (since the Oshkosh photos made the h.s. look like
they were too high)
is answer to me was " the main wing is set at where Bryan (@ Kolb Aircraft
told him to set them."
e went on to say "the h. stabilizers are set like the factory recommends
2C but after he's flown
or awhile=2C he can adjust that setting later. (I wish!!)
So=2C at this point=2C as far as I know=2C he had the wing incidenc
es and
hor. stabilizers incidences set
ccording to the factory recommended locations!
Next=2C when I read one of the news reports from one of the local new
s s
urces=2C I saw where they
aid "according to the initial investigators=2C there didn't 'appear' to
be
anything wrong with the
irplane. That would seem to make sense=2C knowing what a perfectionist
Sc
tt was.
The weather was basically calm=2C although at 8:00pm=2C when the acc
ident
happened=2C twilight was
etting. Light=2C however=2C is NOT likely to be a factor.
From discussing this situation with 'others'=2C I have been told Scott
ha
some introductory flights
n a MkIII. Most likely=2C Scott would not have flown solo during this
int
oductory flight.
In one of the news articles=2C it mentioned Scott got his Sport Pilot
li
ense last year. This would
ndicate he probably didn't have a lot of flying time=2C especially when
yo
consider he was spending
lot of time trying to finish building his plane! Scott was=2C you coul
d
ay=2C 'a low-time' pilot.
So=2C up to this point=2C the plane itself=2C the weather=2C the
lighting
2C and the wing's incidences=2C don't appear
o have caused the accident.
What's left?? According to Carol=3B Scott took off and flew around a
cou
le of times=2C and when he came
n to land=2C it just nose-dived in. It landed initially on the pacemen
t
2C but continued to tumble onto the
rass.
What does this tell us? If Carol is complete in her description=2C and
a
l Scott did was "fly around a
ouple of times" =2C and then try to land=2C this tells us he did NOT
climb
to altitude and explore the plane's
lying parameters. It primarily tells us he did not find out the plane's
E
ACT stall speed=2C and now we'll
ever know!
With the fact that Scott was=3B
) a low-time pilot=2C and
) flying a plane that he may not have known the stall speed of
) the mishap occurred at the runway threshold=2C coming in for his 1st
lan
ing
I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final=2C where it nose
-di
ed into the runway=2C and rolled.
If these events are indeed accurate and correct=2C I am very sad=2C
becau
e they seem to be so avoidable.
will miss Scott. I'm am sorry he misjudged the situation=2C and let it
g
t out of control (if these facts
re accurate).
Training=2C people=2C training!! Having crashed an ultralight simil
ar to
these circumstances=2C all I can say
s these accidents can be avoided=2C or at least minimized with proper fl
ig
t education.
These are the facts as I've been able to acertain. If anyone knows more
2C please share it with us.
f I've mistated something=2C please correct the record.
Best regards to all=2C
ike Welch
________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________
________
ime: 05:36:35 PM PST US
ubject: Kolb-List: Re: Here's what I have gathered;
rom: "ces308" <ces308@ldaco.com>
hank you Mike,
I am sorry for Scott,but it does appear he made a terrible mistake,however
,It's
ice to here there doesn't appear to have been a fault of the aircraft.
These are fun airplanes to fly,but to an even greater degree because of th
ere
ack
f weight to keep things going,you need to be very aware of your airspeed
n final...where my 172 flies right through a wind gust,my M3X will stop fl
ying
nd you can never forget that.
Thanks again for the information...every one CAN learn from this ,if they
isten.
chris ambrose
3X/Jabiru 150.3 hrs 2500. total
327CS
ead this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312697#312697
_______________________________ Message 10 _____________________________
_______
ime: 05:42:23 PM PST US
ubject: Kolb-List: Re: Here's what I have gathered;
rom: "Ralph B" <ul15@juno.com>
ike, I'm not an accident investigator either, but I do know that many fata
l
ccidents
ccur due to stall-spins on landing. I was once told, "If there is any
ne thing to remember about flying, it's airspeed". This is especially true
upon
anding. It would be better to come in hot and use up runway than to bend
p your airplane or hurt yourself. It's a fine line sometimes to slow it up
or
o off the end of a short runway. I tend to keep more speed than most pilot
s
nd maybe this has saved me a few times. Kolb's, like other light aircraft
have
ore built-in drag than heavy and clean ones. They tend to lose speed more
uickly.
his means keeping the power on and nose down until it's on the ground.
t's all about speed. Without that, the wings don't lift.
Ralph B
--------
alph B
riginal Firestar 447
91493 E-AB
000 hours
3 years flying it
olbra 912UL
20386
years flying it
20 hrs
ead this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312698#312698
_______________________________ Message 11 _____________________________
_______
ime: 07:25:38 PM PST US
rom: "PCKing" <pc.king@comcast.net>
ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered;
Mike,
Thank you.
Brian Carpenter (Rainbow Aviation) just did a webinar titled "GA to LSA:
ake a Safe Transition" He makes a compelling case for maintaining
irspeed on final because of the low mass and high drag of the fat
ltralight LSAs. He describes them as a cotton ball compared to the GA
olf ball. The highest percentage of LSA accidents occur with GA pilots
t the stick.
The webinar is archived at
http://www.eaavideo.org/channel.aspx?ch=ch_webinars
Peter C. King
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Welch
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 7:48 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered;
List members, I have had many members ask me to bring this subject
atter out in the
open. Plus, there are way too many people now, for me to reply to.
approaching 30+)
Here is what I have this far!!
My initial thought was to discuss Scott's accident openly with this
ist, but then I thought
I'd be criticized by someone for acting like an investigator. Well,
'm NOT an investigator,
but I certainly am curious about the facts that caused Scott's death,
specially since I do
not want to duplicate them.
Then, I thought maybe the subject would be best discussed privately
etween those only
who show an interest. Last count, I've had about 14 responders, so
aybe we should just
bring this out in the open.
(I had the same concern regarding John Ratcliffe's accident a few
onths ago. Yet, I didn't
say anything, and John was soon forgotten, it appears. I did some
hecking on his situation,
and it seems he must have stalled near turning base to final, and
osed it in.)
With regard to Scott, here is what I have found out. This is by NO
eans any kind of official
report, nor do I profess to have all the answers. Additionally, I
ccept any and all new information
that may correct anything that I may misstate.
A few days before Scott made his intitial flight, I asked him where
e had his main wing's and
his h. stabilizers set at (since the Oshkosh photos made the h.s. look
ike they were too high)
His answer to me was " the main wing is set at where Bryan (@ Kolb
ircraft) told him to set them."
He went on to say "the h. stabilizers are set like the factory
ecommends, but after he's flown
for awhile, he can adjust that setting later. (I wish!!)
So, at this point, as far as I know, he had the wing incidences and
or. stabilizers incidences set
according to the factory recommended locations!
Next, when I read one of the news reports from one of the local
ews sources, I saw where they
said "according to the initial investigators, there didn't 'appear' to
e anything wrong with the
airplane. That would seem to make sense, knowing what a perfectionist
cott was.
The weather was basically calm, although at 8:00pm, when the
ccident happened, twilight was
setting. Light, however, is NOT likely to be a factor.
From discussing this situation with 'others', I have been told Scott
ad some introductory flights
in a MkIII. Most likely, Scott would not have flown solo during this
ntroductory flight.
In one of the news articles, it mentioned Scott got his Sport Pilot
icense last year. This would
indicate he probably didn't have a lot of flying time, especially when
ou consider he was spending
a lot of time trying to finish building his plane! Scott was, you
ould say, 'a low-time' pilot.
So, up to this point, the plane itself, the weather, the lighting,
nd the wing's incidences, don't appear
to have caused the accident.
What's left?? According to Carol; Scott took off and flew around a
ouple of times, and when he came
in to land, it just nose-dived in. It landed initially on the
acement, but continued to tumble onto the
grass.
What does this tell us? If Carol is complete in her description,
nd all Scott did was "fly around a
couple of times" , and then try to land, this tells us he did NOT
limb to altitude and explore the plane's
flying parameters. It primarily tells us he did not find out the
lane's EXACT stall speed, and now we'll
never know!
With the fact that Scott was;
A) a low-time pilot, and
B) flying a plane that he may not have known the stall speed of
C) the mishap occurred at the runway threshold, coming in for his 1st
anding
I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final, where it
ose-dived into the runway, and rolled.
If these events are indeed accurate and correct, I am very sad,
ecause they seem to be so avoidable.
I will miss Scott. I'm am sorry he misjudged the situation, and let
t get out of control (if these facts
are accurate).
Training, people, training!! Having crashed an ultralight similar
o these circumstances, all I can say
is these accidents can be avoided, or at least minimized with proper
light education.
These are the facts as I've been able to acertain. If anyone knows
ore, please share it with us.
If I've mistated something, please correct the record.
Best regards to all,
Mike Welch
_______________________________ Message 12 _____________________________
_______
ime: 07:47:04 PM PST US
rom: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
Mike W:
Have you discussed your findings with the NTSB?
Maybe your information would help in their investigation and their
etermination of the cause of the accident.
john h
kIII
ock House, OR
I have tried to find out exactly what happened to cause Scott's
atal crash.
Why? Because it matters a HELL of a lot to me!! At first, I thought
'd share what
I've found with the entire list, then, I thought someone may gripe
bout it.
So, if anyone wants to know some of the details about what happened,
ncluding
what Scott and I discussed a few days prior to his maiden flight,
mail me off
the Kolb list, and I will share with you what I have found out.
Mike Welch
________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________
________
ime: 07:56:23 PM PST US
rom: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
ubject: RE: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered;
eter=2C
Certainly there is no disputing that some GA pilots do seem to have trou
b
e
ransitioning from the factory iron to the lighter=2C less mass SLA or li
gh
planes.
However=2C in Scott's case=2C I'm afraid that "transitioning" wasn't
the
ssue=2C because
ince he only got his Sport Pilot license last year=2C he couldn't have
had
very many
ours in GA airplanes. At least=2C that's what I'm led to believe.
Additionally=2C Carol described him as 'coming in for a landing' and th
en
he sort of
nose-dived". This scenario is much more indicative of an approach-to-land
ng-
tall=2C rather than the typical GA to LSA failure to handle the mass dif
fe
ences
etween the two (at touchdown).
Airspeed is one thing you cannot ignor when flying an airplane=2C lest
th
ground
ise up and smite thee!!!
Mike Welch
ike=2C
Thank you.
Brian Carpenter (Rainbow Aviation) just did a webinar titled "GA to LSA:
Ma
e a Safe Transition" He makes a compelling case for maintaining airspeed
o
final because of the low mass and high drag of the fat ultralight LSAs.
H
describes them as a cotton ball compared to the GA golf ball. The highest
percentage of LSA accidents occur with GA pilots at the stick.
The webinar is archived at
http://www.eaavideo.org/channel.aspx?ch=ch_webinars
Peter C. King
---- Original Message -----
rom: Mike Welch
ent: Thursday=2C September 16=2C 2010 7:48 PM
ubject: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered=3B
List members=2C I have had many members ask me to bring this subject ma
tte
out in the
pen. Plus=2C there are way too many people now=2C for me to reply to.
(a
proaching 30+)
ere is what I have this far!!
My initial thought was to discuss Scott's accident openly with this list
2C but then I thought
'd be criticized by someone for acting like an investigator. Well=2C I'
m
OT an investigator=2C
ut I certainly am curious about the facts that caused Scott's death=2C
esp
cially since I do
ot want to duplicate them.
Then=2C I thought maybe the subject would be best discussed privately
bet
een those only
ho show an interest. Last count=2C I've had about 14 responders=2C so
may
e we should just
ring this out in the open.
(I had the same concern regarding John Ratcliffe's accident a few months
go. Yet=2C I didn't
ay anything=2C and John was soon forgotten=2C it appears. I did some
chec
ing on his situation=2C
nd it seems he must have stalled near turning base to final=2C and nosed
i
in.)
With regard to Scott=2C here is what I have found out. This is by NO
me
ns any kind of official
eport=2C nor do I profess to have all the answers. Additionally=2C I
acce
t any and all new information
hat may correct anything that I may misstate.
A few days before Scott made his intitial flight=2C I asked him where
he
ad his main wing's and
is h. stabilizers set at (since the Oshkosh photos made the h.s. look like
they were too high)
is answer to me was " the main wing is set at where Bryan (@ Kolb Aircraft
told him to set them."
e went on to say "the h. stabilizers are set like the factory recommends
2C but after he's flown
or awhile=2C he can adjust that setting later. (I wish!!)
So=2C at this point=2C as far as I know=2C he had the wing incidenc
es and
hor. stabilizers incidences set
ccording to the factory recommended locations!
Next=2C when I read one of the news reports from one of the local new
s s
urces=2C I saw where they
aid "according to the initial investigators=2C there didn't 'appear' to
be
anything wrong with the
irplane. That would seem to make sense=2C knowing what a perfectionist
Sc
tt was.
The weather was basically calm=2C although at 8:00pm=2C when the acc
ident
happened=2C twilight was
etting. Light=2C however=2C is NOT likely to be a factor.
From discussing this situation with 'others'=2C I have been told Scott
ha
some introductory flights
n a MkIII. Most likely=2C Scott would not have flown solo during this
int
oductory flight.
In one of the news articles=2C it mentioned Scott got his Sport Pilot
li
ense last year. This would
ndicate he probably didn't have a lot of flying time=2C especially when
yo
consider he was spending
lot of time trying to finish building his plane! Scott was=2C you coul
d
ay=2C 'a low-time' pilot.
So=2C up to this point=2C the plane itself=2C the weather=2C the
lighting
2C and the wing's incidences=2C don't appear
o have caused the accident.
What's left?? According to Carol=3B Scott took off and flew around a
cou
le of times=2C and when he came
n to land=2C it just nose-dived in. It landed initially on the pacemen
t
2C but continued to tumble onto the
rass.
What does this tell us? If Carol is complete in her description=2C and
a
l Scott did was "fly around a
ouple of times" =2C and then try to land=2C this tells us he did NOT
climb
to altitude and explore the plane's
lying parameters. It primarily tells us he did not find out the plane's
E
ACT stall speed=2C and now we'll
ever know!
With the fact that Scott was=3B
) a low-time pilot=2C and
) flying a plane that he may not have known the stall speed of
) the mishap occurred at the runway threshold=2C coming in for his 1st
lan
ing
I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final=2C where it nose
-di
ed into the runway=2C and rolled.
If these events are indeed accurate and correct=2C I am very sad=2C
becau
e they seem to be so avoidable.
will miss Scott. I'm am sorry he misjudged the situation=2C and let it
g
t out of control (if these facts
re accurate).
Training=2C people=2C training!! Having crashed an ultralight simil
ar to
these circumstances=2C all I can say
s these accidents can be avoided=2C or at least minimized with proper fl
ig
t education.
These are the facts as I've been able to acertain. If anyone knows more
2C please share it with us.
f I've mistated something=2C please correct the record.
Best regards to all=2C
ike Welch
ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.
om/Navigator?Kolb-List
ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
ref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________
________
ime: 08:03:33 PM PST US
ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
rom: Daniel Myers <h20maule@hotmail.com>
Class move John I like it
aniel
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 16=2C 2010=2C at 3:23 PM=2C "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.co
m> wrot
:
> Mike W:
Have you discussed your findings with the NTSB?
Maybe your information would help in their investigation and their determ
nation of the cause of the accident.
john h
mkIII
Rock House=2C OR
I have tried to find out exactly what happened to cause Scott's fatal
rash.
Why? Because it matters a HELL of a lot to me!! At first=2C I thought
I
d share what
I've found with the entire list=2C then=2C I thought someone may grip
e ab
ut it.
So=2C if anyone wants to know some of the details about what happened
2C including
what Scott and I discussed a few days prior to his maiden flight=2C ema
il
me off
the Kolb list=2C and I will share with you what I have found out.
Mike Welch
========
========
========
========
________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________
________
ime: 08:09:48 PM PST US
rom: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
ubject: RE: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
Mike W:
>Have you discussed your findings with the NTSB?
>Maybe your information would help in their investigation and their determ
i
ation of >the cause of the accident.
>john h
mkIII
John H=2C
No=2C I haven't=2C but I will be calling them tomorrow. But the fac
t is
2C I shared
hat little information I dug up=2C and packaged into one concise email.
T
e
nformation I gathered was either reading it in news articles relating to
t
e
rash (in otherwords...public information)=2C my emails with Scott=2C
just
rior
o his flight=2C and telephone conversations with a couple of Kolb list
mem
ers.
I'm simply trying to save lives. Do you have a problem with my discuss
i
n?
m I supposed to contact that NTSB to show a concern for Kolb pilots?
Mike Welch
________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________
________
ime: 09:27:32 PM PST US
ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered;
rom: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
Whoa! Let's get something straight. Gusts and wind affect glide path and
round speed, not airspeed. The danger is inexperienced pilots who get
ixated on a point and pull back on the stick in an effort to maintain glid
e
oward that point. The only thing that counts is airspeed, period.
s I told Mike when we talked on Sunday, I have a mantra that goes on in my
ead, and sometimes out loud, from the moment I pull power back from cruise
o set up an approach. It's just two words, Hold 50. If you watched the
ideo I made about the sight picture as it changes for flap settings, you
an hear me over the sound of the 582 saying, "turning final, HOLD 50". It'
s
y choice of approach airspeed for my Mk III based upon the stall speeds I
ocumented. It makes absolutely no difference if I hold some power in
eserve or close the throttle completely, it's HOLD 50 and it stays HOLD 50
ntil I pull back on the stick to round out and let her settle to the
round. If I'm a little too high on approach, which I actually prefer, I ca
n
lip Zulu Delta to lose altitude a little faster, and I still HOLD 50.
Rick Girard
On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 9:18 PM, PCKing <pc.king@comcast.net> wrote:
> Mike,
Thank you.
Brian Carpenter (Rainbow Aviation) just did a webinar titled "GA to LSA:
Make a Safe Transition" He makes a compelling case for maintaining airspe
ed
on final because of the low mass and high drag of the fat ultralight LSAs
..
He describes them as a cotton ball compared to the GA golf ball. The high
est
percentage of LSA accidents occur with GA pilots at the stick.
The webinar is archived at
http://www.eaavideo.org/channel.aspx?ch=ch_webinars
Peter C. King
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
*To:* kolb-list@matronics.com
*Sent:* Thursday, September 16, 2010 7:48 PM
*Subject:* Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered;
List members, I have had many members ask me to bring this subject matte
r
out in the
open. Plus, there are way too many people now, for me to reply to.
(approaching 30+)
Here is what I have this far!!
My initial thought was to discuss Scott's accident openly with this
list, but then I thought
I'd be criticized by someone for acting like an investigator. Well, I'm
NOT an investigator,
but I certainly am curious about the facts that caused Scott's death,
especially since I do
not want to duplicate them.
Then, I thought maybe the subject would be best discussed privately
between those only
who show an interest. Last count, I've had about 14 responders, so maybe
we should just
bring this out in the open.
(I had the same concern regarding John Ratcliffe's accident a few month
s
ago. Yet, I didn't
say anything, and John was soon forgotten, it appears. I did some checki
ng
on his situation,
and it seems he must have stalled near turning base to final, and nosed
it
in.)
With regard to Scott, here is what I have found out. This is by NO
means any kind of official
report, nor do I profess to have all the answers. Additionally, I accept
any and all new information
that may correct anything that I may misstate.
A few days before Scott made his intitial flight, I asked him where he
had his main wing's and
his h. stabilizers set at (since the Oshkosh photos made the h.s. look li
ke
they were too high)
His answer to me was " the main wing is set at where Bryan (@ Kolb
Aircraft) told him to set them."
He went on to say "the h. stabilizers are set like the factory recommends
,
but after he's flown
for awhile, he can adjust that setting later. (I wish!!)
So, at this point, as far as I know, he had the wing incidences and hor
..
stabilizers incidences set
according to the factory recommended locations!
Next, when I read one of the news reports from one of the local news
sources, I saw where they
said "according to the initial investigators, there didn't 'appear' to be
anything wrong with the
airplane. That would seem to make sense, knowing what a perfectionist
Scott was.
The weather was basically calm, although at 8:00pm, when the accident
happened, twilight was
setting. Light, however, is NOT likely to be a factor.
From discussing this situation with 'others', I have been told Scott ha
d
some introductory flights
in a MkIII. Most likely, Scott would not have flown solo during this
introductory flight.
In one of the news articles, it mentioned Scott got his Sport Pilot
license last year. This would
indicate he probably didn't have a lot of flying time, especially when yo
u
consider he was spending
a lot of time trying to finish building his plane! Scott was, you could
say, 'a low-time' pilot.
So, up to this point, the plane itself, the weather, the lighting, and
the wing's incidences, don't appear
to have caused the accident.
What's left?? According to Carol; Scott took off and flew around a
couple of times, and when he came
in to land, it just nose-dived in. It landed initially on the pacement,
but continued to tumble onto the
grass.
What does this tell us? If Carol is complete in her description, and
all
Scott did was "fly around a
couple of times" , and then try to land, this tells us he did NOT climb
to
altitude and explore the plane's
flying parameters. It primarily tells us he did not find out the plane's
EXACT stall speed, and now we'll
never know!
With the fact that Scott was;
A) a low-time pilot, and
B) flying a plane that he may not have known the stall speed of
C) the mishap occurred at the runway threshold, coming in for his 1st
landing
I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final, where it
nose-dived into the runway, and rolled.
If these events are indeed accurate and correct, I am very sad, because
they seem to be so avoidable.
I will miss Scott. I'm am sorry he misjudged the situation, and let it
get
out of control (if these facts
are accurate).
Training, people, training!! Having crashed an ultralight similar to
these circumstances, all I can say
is these accidents can be avoided, or at least minimized with proper flig
ht
education.
These are the facts as I've been able to acertain. If anyone knows mor
e,
please share it with us.
If I've mistated something, please correct the record.
Best regards to all,
Mike Welch
*
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
*
*
*
-
ulu Delta
olb Mk IIIC
82 Gray head
.00 C gearbox
blade WD
hanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unab
le
o imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________
________
ime: 09:39:45 PM PST US
ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
rom: Daniel Myers <h20maule@hotmail.com>
Mike=2C my uncle died in my kolb and no one knows what happened except
for
im. Kolbs Are great planes but are very unforgiving. I continue to fly Kol
s only because I know not to get close to that stall speed. I have only ow
ed two Kolbs but I know the limits..this guy was on his first flight=2C
it
s a terrible situation because he didn't know the kolb and it's limits.
aniel
Sent from my iPhoned
On Sep 16=2C 2010=2C at 11:06 PM=2C Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.
com> wr
te:
> >Mike W:
>Have you discussed your findings with the NTSB?
>Maybe your information would help in their investigation and their deter
ination of >the cause of the accident.
>john h
>mkIII
John H=2C
No=2C I haven't=2C but I will be calling them tomorrow. But the fa
ct i
=2C I shared
what little information I dug up=2C and packaged into one concise email
.
The
information I gathered was either reading it in news articles relating to
the
crash (in otherwords...public information)=2C my emails with Scott=2C
jus
prior
to his flight=2C and telephone conversations with a couple of Kolb list
m
mbers.
I'm simply trying to save lives. Do you have a problem with my discus
ion?
Am I supposed to contact that NTSB to show a concern for Kolb pilots?
Mike Welch
========
========
========
========
________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________
________
ime: 10:01:06 PM PST US
rom: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
ubject: RE: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident
ike=2C my uncle died in my kolb and no one knows what happened except fo
r
im. Kolbs Are great planes but are very unforgiving. I continue to fly Kol
s only because I know not to get close to that stall speed. I have only ow
ed two Kolbs but I know the limits..this guy was on his first flight=2C
it
s a terrible situation because he didn't know the kolb and it's limits.
aniel
Daniel=2C
You are exactly right (with your last statement). I am afraid it is pos
s
ble it is as simple as
e may have simply misjudged what he was doing. Of course=2C we will nev
er
know the whole truth now.
It is only my intention to help educate those of us who fly=2C or are
yet
to fly=2C their Kolb aircraft.
rashing and dieing does little good to both the families left behind and
t
e reputation of the aircraft. I
ould like to reduce the damage by analyzing what we know=2C and learn fr
om
our errors. Believe it or
ot=2C there may be people who have a problem with that.
Mike Welch
y condolences regarding your uncle=2C Daniel.
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________________________________ Message 4
_____________________________________
Time: 07:02:30 AM PST US
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Upgrading from current 4.00-6 "Garden" tires.
From: "gotime242" <dylanshine@gmail.com>
Thanks, i just wanted to be sure it was ok/safe to go wider than recommended
or
than the width of the rim since there is only 4.00's on there now.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312833#312833
________________________________ Message 5
_____________________________________
Time: 07:05:19 AM PST US
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: kolb stall
From: Richard Neilsen <neilsenrm@gmail.com>
Hey All
There has been a lot of good discussion since Scott's tragic accident. My
concern is that it leaves the impression that there is a problem or bad
flight characteristic with our airplanes which there is not.
I'm not a major high time pilot but I have had the opportunity to fly quite
a few different airplanes and none are as good as our Kolbs. Our planes have
tremendous short field capabilities that when fully utilized (flaps and no
power landings) does require a high level of precision. Pilots new to the
Kolb flight characteristics will have problems with these flight
characteristics no matter how skilled they are in other aircraft. Land with
power and stay away from the flaps till you get very good at it. Then very
gradually land with less power OR using more flaps. Don't progress too
quickly. I have a set of fully retracted Kolb landing gear legs that I bent
when I progressed to full flaps and no power way too quickly.
Flight instructors not used to our Kolbs don't train us how to handle our
Kolbs properly/safely. I recently got my check ride with a GA instructor in
my Kolb. I was praised for how well I flew the plane in everything but how I
flew very short final. He felt I rounded out way too low and with too much
airspeed. I think this is a very common mistake that most non
Kolb instructors will make. Let me also explain I did fly a bit faster
approach rounded out lower because my instructor was a good 100 lbs heaver
than anyone I had ever flown in my plane and I was using a very long 2500 ft
grass strip. Yes we were a bit over gross weight.
Rick Neilsen
1st Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
________________________________ Message 6
_____________________________________
Time: 07:16:39 AM PST US
From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: kolb stall
--------------------------------------------------
"John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
(09/17/2010 16:35)
> I know nothing of the results of the investigations, but a Kolb in a nose
> high attitude that runs out of airspeed will drop the nose and normally a
> wing....
Especially if it's a new airplane that might not be properly trimmed
out yet.
-Dana
________________________________ Message 7
_____________________________________
Time: 03:41:04 PM PST US
From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
Subject: Kolb-List: airspeed indicator calibration
Kolb guys=2C
I am in the process of installing all the instruments in my MkIII. One o
f the
instruments is an analog airspeed indicator. It's a standard=2C typical ty
pe of indicator that uses
ram air to determine it's reading=2C by way of a pitot tube.
Out of the box=2C I can't imagine it can be very accurate=2C can it? I m
ean=2C everybody will have
their own unique design in installing one of these=2C so I would think that
each installation would
be off a little from someone else's installation. Or=2C are they much more
uniform in their
readings?
I have the exact placement in my panel and the routing of the tubing pret
ty much figured out.
For those guys that have installed an airspeed indicator=2C did you calib
rate it in any way first=2C
or did you just stick it in the plane and live with whatever reading it say
s once you start
flying the plane?
I thought what I would do is essentially build the whole system=2C and ge
t someone to drive
a car down the road=2C with me hanging the A/S indicator's pitot tube out t
he window. While this
may seem somewhat silly=2C at least I could an idea how accurate it might b
e. At least it's a start=2C
right? Has anybody done this?? Or is it a waste of time?
For an instrument that has so much riding on it=2C and if new=2C hasn't r
eally proven itself for
accuracy=2C it seems to me a guy ought to verify in some way it comes "clos
e" to the correct
airspeed.
Any thoughts or experiences would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
Mike Welch
MkIII
________________________________ Message 8
_____________________________________
Time: 05:02:46 PM PST US
From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: airspeed indicator calibration
The instrument itself should be quite accurate, but pressure
variations at the pitot and static sources can throw it way off. The
pressure field around a moving car will make any such calibration
meaningless, too. Put it in the plane. You can use your GPS to
calibrate it on a dead calm day, or average readings into and with a
steady wind.
-Dana
--------------------------------------------------
Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com> wrote:
(09/18/2010 18:35)
>
> Kolb guys,
>
> I am in the process of installing all the instruments in my MkIII. One
of
the
> instruments is an analog airspeed indicator. It's a standard, typical
type of
indicator that uses
> ram air to determine it's reading, by way of a pitot tube.
>
> Out of the box, I can't imagine it can be very accurate, can it? I
mean, everybody
will have
> their own unique design in installing one of these, so I would think that
each
installation would
> be off a little from someone else's installation. Or, are they much more
uniform
in their
> readings?
>
> I have the exact placement in my panel and the routing of the tubing
pretty
much figured out.
>
> For those guys that have installed an airspeed indicator, did you
calibrate
it in any way first,
> or did you just stick it in the plane and live with whatever reading it
says
once you start
> flying the plane?
>
> I thought what I would do is essentially build the whole system, and get
someone
to drive
> a car down the road, with me hanging the A/S indicator's pitot tube out
the window.
While this
> may seem somewhat silly, at least I could an idea how accurate it might
be.
At least it's a start,
> right? Has anybody done this?? Or is it a waste of time?
>
> For an instrument that has so much riding on it, and if new, hasn't
really
proven itself for
> accuracy, it seems to me a guy ought to verify in some way it comes
"close" to
the correct
> airspeed.
>
> Any thoughts or experiences would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
>
> Mike Welch
> MkIII
>
>
>
>
________________________________ Message 9
_____________________________________
Time: 07:28:51 PM PST US
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: airspeed indicator calibration
From: "Richard Pike" <richard@bcchapel.org>
IMO, it is almost impossible to calibrate an airspeed indicator unless it is
in
the airplane, because of the variables involved in each installation. When
we
first flew the FSII, we had screwy airspeed readings, and it turned out we
had
two problems: one was with the indicator, the other was the pitot location.
Fixed the location of the pitot, but the numbers were till odd, so tried an
experiment.
Strapped a piece of 1 1/2" aluminum tubing onto the roof rack of the Jeep so
that
the forward end was ahead of and well above the hood (no bow wave allowed)
and ran a piece of vinyl tubing to the airspeed indicator. Wrote down the
numbers
at various speeds, then swapped out the airspeed indicator with another that
was known to be good, did it again, and there was quite a disparity.
But all that did was prove that the original airspeed indicator was bad.
Bought
a new one and put it in the airplane and flew it, and compared it to the
GPS.
It was good enough that we left it alone.
Wonder if we hurt it in the wreck? Guess we'll find out in a couple months.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312875#312875
________________________________ Message 10
____________________________________
Time: 09:27:46 PM PST US
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Here's what I have gathered;
From: "R. Hankins" <rphanks@grantspass.com>
"The kolb stall is very unforgiving-trust me... "
h20maule, Your statement is incorrect. It should read: "The stall of my
kolb
is very unforgiving-trust me... ".
I have never flown your kolb, but I have flown 2 MarkIIIs, 4 firestars and a
Kolbra
and none of them had unforgiving stall characteristics. The worst one was
mine when I had the VGs mounted too far back. This was the only kolb I have
flown that had a sharp stall break, but recovery was still quick,
straightforward
and uneventful. Moving the VGs forward gave me back my gentle airplane.
Unforgiving is a pretty subjective term. Can you describe what it is about
stalls
in your kolb that makes them less than desirable? Maybe there is something
unique about your plane that can be changed to improve its handling?
--------
Roger in Oregon
1992 KXP 503 - N1782C
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312882#312882
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: Any KOLBs in South Florida? |
I am in West Boca. Building right now(long way to go).
Loseyf@comcast.net is my personal email.
Fran Losey
------Original Message------
From: gotime242
Sender: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
ReplyTo: kolb-list@matronics.com
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Any KOLBs in South Florida?
Sent: Sep 19, 2010 11:31
Hello all,
Just wanted to revive this thread from the dead.
Anyone still flying around S FL? I fly a FS 2 out of lantana airport and live in
west palm beach. It would be cool to meet up with some other kolb flyers.
Ill be flying mine for a couple more months and then probably selling it. Its very
airworthy, just not very pretty which is what i intend to change.
Anyway...let me know!
-Dylan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312922#312922
Fran Losey www.mykitlog.com/loseyf Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
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Hi Gang:
Some recent photos from the Rock House, Oregon:
Places a Kolb will take you:
-Owyhee River Canyon.
-Flightline at the Rock House.
-Sometimes we can not always fly our Kolbs.
john h
mkIII
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Subject: | Re: Any KOLBs in South Florida? |
South Florida guys,
I' m down to Lakeland after Thanksgiving and have gotten together with Bea
uford,Rick Nielsen and 3 or 4 other Kolb pilots from the East side a coupl
e of times last winter.We picked an airport about 40 miles east of Venice,
can't remember the name,for a packed lunch.All you have to do is start the
ball rolling,pick a neutral field and you'd be surprised at how many Kolb
s show up.
G.Aman MK-3/Jabiru 2200a 590hrs
P.S.
If you don't bring the Kolb down this year Rick,I,ll pick you up on the wa
y to gather up Beauford.
-----Original Message-----
From: Fran Losey <loseyf@comcast.net>
Sent: Sun, Sep 19, 2010 1:17 pm
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Any KOLBs in South Florida?
I am in West Boca. Building right now(long way to go).
Loseyf@comcast.net is my personal email.
Fran Losey
------Original Message------
From: gotime242
Sender: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
ReplyTo: kolb-list@matronics.com
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Any KOLBs in South Florida?
Sent: Sep 19, 2010 11:31
Hello all,
Just wanted to revive this thread from the dead.
Anyone still flying around S FL? I fly a FS 2 out of lantana airport and
live in
west palm beach. It would be cool to meet up with some other kolb flyers.
Ill be flying mine for a couple more months and then probably selling it.
Its
very airworthy, just not very pretty which is what i intend to change.
Anyway...let me know!
-Dylan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312922#312922
Fran Losey www.mykitlog.com/loseyf Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerr
y
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Message 18
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Subject: | Re: airspeed indicator calibration |
Here is a paper on calibrating Air speed. For initial flights the other
comments on watching for the stall/takeoff are all you need.
Ron
On 9/18/2010 5:35 PM, Mike Welch wrote:
>
> Kolb guys,
>
> I am in the process of installing all the instruments in my MkIII. One of
the
> instruments is an analog airspeed indicator. It's a standard, typical type of
indicator that uses
> ram air to determine it's reading, by way of a pitot tube.
>
> Out of the box, I can't imagine it can be very accurate, can it? I mean,
everybody will have
> their own unique design in installing one of these, so I would think that each
installation would
> be off a little from someone else's installation. Or, are they much more uniform
in their
> readings?
>
> I have the exact placement in my panel and the routing of the tubing pretty
much figured out.
>
> For those guys that have installed an airspeed indicator, did you calibrate
it in any way first,
> or did you just stick it in the plane and live with whatever reading it says
once you start
> flying the plane?
>
> I thought what I would do is essentially build the whole system, and get someone
to drive
> a car down the road, with me hanging the A/S indicator's pitot tube out the window.
While this
> may seem somewhat silly, at least I could an idea how accurate it might be.
At least it's a start,
> right? Has anybody done this?? Or is it a waste of time?
>
> For an instrument that has so much riding on it, and if new, hasn't really
proven itself for
> accuracy, it seems to me a guy ought to verify in some way it comes "close" to
the correct
> airspeed.
>
> Any thoughts or experiences would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
>
> Mike Welch
> MkIII
>
>
>
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Gene Z/Gang:
The photos came out great on the BBS:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=74637&sid=7f7045dc8c1c19757e2c7e4a4ec8faa2
Sorry about the gigantic mess it created on the email list. ;-)
john h
mkIII
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Subject: | Re: Rock House 2010 |
- John- Thanks for the photos.- Having somebody in the river gives a ne
w perspective on the stuff he's been flying over.- May as well be fishing
on Mars, compared to here.- I will never see it, so you have to do it fo
r me.- Want more!
-
do not archive
-
-------------------------
-------------------------
--- Bill Sullivan
-------------------------
-------------------------
--- Windsor Locks, Ct.
-------------------------
-------------------------
--- FS 447
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Subject: | Re: Rock House 2010 |
Bill
Of course you'll see it! -- just have to finish the Kolb & maybe win
a lotto or two. Think positive!
Russ
On Sep 19, 2010, at 5:52 PM, william sullivan wrote:
> John- Thanks for the photos. Having somebody in the river gives
> a new perspective on the stuff he's been flying over. May as well
> be fishing on Mars, compared to here. I will never see it, so you
> have to do it for me. Want more!
>
> do not archive
>
> Bill Sullivan
> Windsor
> Locks, Ct.
> FS 447
>
>
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Not to ask a stupid question, I am familiar with CG, is VG a typo, or
something else.
Thanks, Greg
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 12:36 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: kolb stall
>
> Kolbers,
>
> A couple of comments. VG's will move the center of lift a little to the
> rear. Also different planes of the same model will stall differently due
> to
> differences in cg. Moving them to the rear will give a more gentle break
> and/or mush. Move them forward, and the stall will be more pronounced.
>
> Jack B. Hart FF004
> Winchester, IN
>
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Any KOLBs in South Florida? |
Hi, guys,
We have a Mk3c at Pompano.
Don't fly every weekend, but are almost always
accessible.
The flyin mentioned was Arcadia.
One poss is Okeechobee. Decent restaurant, lots of room on ramp.
Dave
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312964#312964
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- VG's are vortex generators.- Look them up on the Matronics Wiki for d
iscussions.- Jack Hart has an excellent web site, and they can also be lo
oked up there.- Look it up on the web as "Firefly Slide Show".- I don't
have the address handy.-
-
-------------------------
------------------- Bill Sullivan
-------------------------
------------------- Windsor Locks, Ct
.
-------------------------
--------------------FS 447
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At 06:37 PM 9/19/10 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Not to ask a stupid question, I am familiar with CG, is VG a typo, or
>something else.
---------------------------
Greg,
VG's is a short form for vortex generators
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
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Subject: | Re: Any KOLBs in South Florida? |
Watkinsdw wrote:
> Hi, guys,
> We have a Mk3c at Pompano.
> Don't fly every weekend, but are almost always
> accessible.
> The flyin mentioned was Arcadia.
> One poss is Okeechobee. Decent restaurant, lots of room on ramp.
> Dave
That would be fun due to the restaurant, ive been up there quite a bit in the past.
I would love to get a little kolb fly-in going in this area.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312976#312976
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Can you access the subject of VG's thru Matt or somehow? (Vortex
Generators)
There's been a lot of talk about them in the past
Worth reading.
On Sep 19, 2010, at 6:37 PM, gtaylor wrote:
> <gtaylor35918@roadrunner.com>
>
> Not to ask a stupid question, I am familiar with CG, is VG a typo,
> or something else.
> Thanks, Greg
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack B. Hart"
> <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 12:36 PM
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: kolb stall
>
>
>> <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
>>
>> Kolbers,
>>
>> A couple of comments. VG's will move the center of lift a little
>> to the
>> rear. Also different planes of the same model will stall
>> differently due to
>> differences in cg. Moving them to the rear will give a more
>> gentle break
>> and/or mush. Move them forward, and the stall will be more
>> pronounced.
>>
>> Jack B. Hart FF004
>> Winchester, IN
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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Subject: | Re: airspeed indicator calibration |
rrh(at)rrhoyt.com wrote:
> Here is a paper on calibrating Air speed. For initial flights the other
> comments on watching for the stall/takeoff are all you need.
>
> Ron
>
>
Great paper. It had a url for a downloadable Excel spread sheet but the link was
broken. By any chance do you have a copy of that spread sheet? And if so, can
you make it available? That would be a great resource.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312985#312985
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Subject: | Re: Any KOLBs in South Florida? |
There are two of us flying two different Kolb MK-III's in Miami. It would be cool
to get get together of the Kolbs around here !!!
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312996#312996
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Subject: | Re: Here's what I have gathered; |
The Kolb will stall VERY easily compared to most sport aircraft. The high thrust
line of the Kolb MK III assures that the Kolb will tend to pitch up as soon
as you pull the power off, the very high drag and low mass of the Kolb MK III
will assure that the Kolb will bleed its speed off almost instantly once you
pull off the power. Combine the two, a pitching up moment, and an almost instantaneous
loss of speed and you have something that is guaranteed to kill a pilot
that is not prepared for it, or one that has been flying other types of aircraft.
I do not consider this a problem at all, dealing with these characteristics
is second nature to me and I do not even have to think about it... But
I have no illusions about this either, this characteristic would be a HUGE surprise
and most likely kill a pilot that had been flying other tractor type aircraft.
We would be doing any new Kolb pilot a life saving favor to make him
very aware of these things before his first flight rather than being in denial
about it.
The Kolb has a very gentle stall, but if you are not experienced in a Kolb, it
will take you into that gentle stall very very quickly when the power is pulled
off. Having a gentle stall is not much of a consolation when you are 30 feet
over the runway, hitting the ground in a stall can kill you weather the stall
was gentle or not...
My MK III Xtra would be very difficult to fly with the Horizontal tail incidence
set so high on the tail boom. Mine MK III Xtra flys with the leading edge of
the horizontal stab set to the middle of the boom. My wings, boom etc, are
set exactly per the Kolb specs, to 1/10 of a degree according to my very accurate
digital level. If Scott had an out of trim condition, and was not experienced
in flying a Kolb, it is no surprise that his first flight ended the way
it did.
So there are two things to learn here. First have an experienced pilot fly any
new Kolb on its first flight, it may be very very difficult. Second, before
a new pilot flys a Kolb, he should have sufficient instruction, and should be
made WELL AWARE of how quickly he will run out of speed once the power is pulled
off. The Kolbs will fly well, and are a lot of fun, relaxing, and safe when
you know how to fly them, but they are NOT easy to fly, especially for pilots
of tractor type aircraft that will not be expecting the pitch up combined with
instant loss of airspeed when the power is reduced.
If we can get this information out, we can help avoid any repeats of this type
of accident in the future.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312997#312997
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I'm not sure who Matt is, I am new to the list, a 250 hr pilot with IFR, but
I have only about 1.5 in my Kolb Firestar. I bought it already built, went
through it pretty thoroughly and then test flew it. I have seen all the
threads about Scott's accident and was worried that his wife could be
monitoring the list and see all the comments. This is something that she
doesn't need right now, what she needs is our condolences and our prayers.
As pilots we all know and I remember my ground school instructor telling us
that airspeed is your life, so the most important thing in flying is
managing that air speed.
I told myself what testing I was going to do on my initial flight, and
I wound up just flying around the patch several times and doing touch and
goes. I did no stalls, or any of the testing I was planning on doing. This
was about a month or two ago maybe longer, since then I have mowed a runway
off behind my house and tried to fly out of it. I only have about 400 ft of
good usable runway maybe five, and I learned the hard way how easy it is to
put the nose in the dirt, I aborted a take off because when I was ready to
leave the ground at a certain point on the runway the plane wasn't. I went
past the end of my runway because the breaks weren't strong enough and went
into some high weeds which along with full breaks caused me to put the nose
in the dirt. After repairing the nose cone and replacing the tube/hinge for
the rudder pedals I have decided that I need to go back to the airport,
maybe even fly from there to a local grass strip to do some more testing
before I play bush pilot out of my back yard. I don't consider myself to be
an elite pilot at 250 hrs nor will I at a thousand, It seems that I have
read before that we are all student pilots because there is always something
new to learn in aviation, Its when we think we know it all that we get
ourselves into trouble, that's why I talked to a lot of people with
experience with Kolb's and ultralights to learn as much as I can and I
believe it saved my life because I had never heard of aileron flutter
before, I saw it on a thread on this list and ask a local guy who is in the
know when comes to building ultralights and LSA, and sure enough on my first
go around the pattern I experienced it turning on final because I let my
airspeed get to high, I did what Mike said that he did when he experienced
it, and it came right out of it.
Thanks, Greg
----- Original Message -----
From: "russ kinne" <russkinne@mac.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 7:21 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: kolb stall
>
> Can you access the subject of VG's thru Matt or somehow? (Vortex
> Generators)
> There's been a lot of talk about them in the past
> Worth reading.
>
> On Sep 19, 2010, at 6:37 PM, gtaylor wrote:
>
>>
>> Not to ask a stupid question, I am familiar with CG, is VG a typo, or
>> something else.
>> Thanks, Greg
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack B. Hart"
>> <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
>> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 12:36 PM
>> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: kolb stall
>>
>>
>>> <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
>>>
>>> Kolbers,
>>>
>>> A couple of comments. VG's will move the center of lift a little to
>>> the
>>> rear. Also different planes of the same model will stall differently
>>> due to
>>> differences in cg. Moving them to the rear will give a more gentle
>>> break
>>> and/or mush. Move them forward, and the stall will be more pronounced.
>>>
>>> Jack B. Hart FF004
>>> Winchester, IN
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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