---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 09/19/10: 31 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:55 AM - Re: Kolb-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 09/18/10 (Go Flying) 2. 03:55 AM - Re: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 09/18/10 (Richard Girard) 3. 04:13 AM - Re: airspeed indicator calibration (Thom Riddle) 4. 06:24 AM - Re: Re: airspeed indicator calibration (robert bean) 5. 07:51 AM - Re: airspeed indicator calibration (olendorf) 6. 08:05 AM - Simple Info (John Hauck) 7. 08:13 AM - Re: Re: airspeed indicator calibration (John Hauck) 8. 08:28 AM - Re: Re: kolb stall (Jack B. Hart) 9. 08:34 AM - Re: Any KOLBs in South Florida? (gotime242) 10. 08:45 AM - Re: Re: airspeed indicator calibration (Mike Welch) 11. 08:45 AM - Re: Airspeed indicator calibration (william sullivan) 12. 09:11 AM - Re: Re: airspeed indicator calibration (John Hauck) 13. 09:40 AM - Re: Re: airspeed indicator calibration (robert bean) 14. 09:51 AM - Re: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 09/18/10 (chris davis) 15. 10:23 AM - Re: Re: Any KOLBs in South Florida? (Fran Losey) 16. 12:02 PM - Rock House 2010 (John Hauck) 17. 01:27 PM - Re: Re: Any KOLBs in South Florida? (zeprep251@aol.com) 18. 02:12 PM - Re: airspeed indicator calibration (Ron Hoyt) 19. 02:49 PM - Rock House 2010 (John Hauck) 20. 02:55 PM - Re: Rock House 2010 (william sullivan) 21. 03:28 PM - Re: Re: Rock House 2010 (russ kinne) 22. 03:51 PM - Re: Re: kolb stall (gtaylor) 23. 03:56 PM - Re: Any KOLBs in South Florida? (Watkinsdw) 24. 04:03 PM - Re: Kolb stall (william sullivan) 25. 04:09 PM - Re: Re: kolb stall (Jack B. Hart) 26. 05:29 PM - Re: Any KOLBs in South Florida? (gotime242) 27. 05:34 PM - Re: Re: kolb stall (russ kinne) 28. 06:42 PM - Re: airspeed indicator calibration (Richard Pike) 29. 08:40 PM - Re: Any KOLBs in South Florida? (JetPilot) 30. 09:10 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (JetPilot) 31. 11:01 PM - Re: Re: kolb stall (gtaylor) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:55:58 AM PST US From: "Go Flying" Subject: Kolb-List: RE: Kolb-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 09/18/10 I have decided to unsubscribe to the Matronics lists, there is nearly no traffic and no content to red. Chris Norman, CEO www.digitalrealitycorp.com owner www.goflying.co -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kolb-List Digest Server Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 1:58 AM Subject: Kolb-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 09/18/10 * ================================================= Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive ================================================= Today's complete Kolb-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the Kolb-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 10-09-18&Archive=Kolb Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 2010-09-18&Archive=Kolb =============================================== EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive =============================================== ---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 09/18/10: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:12 AM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Fran Losey) 2. 03:36 AM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (william sullivan) 3. 05:34 AM - Re: Kolb-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 09/16/10 (icrashrc@aol.com) 4. 07:02 AM - Re: Upgrading from current 4.00-6 "Garden" tires. (gotime242) 5. 07:05 AM - Re: Re: kolb stall (Richard Neilsen) 6. 07:16 AM - Re: Re: kolb stall (Dana Hague) 7. 03:41 PM - airspeed indicator calibration (Mike Welch) 8. 05:02 PM - Re: airspeed indicator calibration (Dana Hague) 9. 07:28 PM - Re: airspeed indicator calibration (Richard Pike) 10. 09:27 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (R. Hankins) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:12:52 AM PST US From: Fran Losey Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident On 9/17/2010 12:57 AM, Mike Welch wrote: > Mike, my uncle died in my kolb and no one knows what happened except > for him. Kolbs Are great planes but are very unforgiving. I continue > to fly Kolbs only because I know not to get close to that stall speed. > I have only owned two Kolbs but I know the limits..this guy was on his > first flight, it's a terrible situation because he didn't know the > kolb and it's limits. > Daniel > > Daniel, > You are exactly right (with your last statement). I am afraid it is > possible it is as simple as > he may have simply misjudged what he was doing. Of course, we will > never know the whole truth now. > It is only my intention to help educate those of us who fly, or are > yet to fly, their Kolb aircraft. > Crashing and dieing does little good to both the families left behind > and the reputation of the aircraft. I > would like to reduce the damage by analyzing what we know, and learn > from our errors. Believe it or > not, there may be people who have a problem with that. > Mike Welch > My condolences regarding your uncle, Daniel. > * > > > * Mike and all, Although some bantering seems to occur when sensitive discussions are placed in the forum, I truly appreciate all feedback from all parties, as I feel it refreshes my awareness as a pilot, and allows me to step back for a minute, think about points that are stated, and reflect how I would have handled (or not) such a situation. When this forum stops these healthy (and surely painful) discussions, I will most likely leave it... I am in the middle of building right now, and although I did not know Scott personally, can say I appreciated his contributions on this forum, and felt in my gut he was a person that would give you the shirt off his back, asking nothing in return. Thanks for sharing, and listening. RIP Scott. -- Sincerely, Fran Losey www.mykitlog.com\loseyf ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:36:30 AM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Scott Thompson's accident - I think the current thread on the accident is good for the List.- Con jecture will bring awareness of the peculiarities of the handling of low dr ag, high lift, low weight aircraft.- The NTSB will eventually give the pa rticulars.- Both will be good for all.- I hope someone will maintain Sc ott's web site, as it is an excellent reference.- We all are going to mis s him. - ------------------------- ------------------------- Bill Sullivan ------------------------- ------------------------- -Windsor Locks, Ct. ------------------------- ------------------------- FS 447 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:34:54 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 09/16/10 From: icrashrc@aol.com For those of you who don't know me, I am Scott's wife. I can assure you th at when he was flying around the pattern that he tested the stall speed. He gave me a list of the things he would do on his intial flight. One of those was stall speed. -----Original Message----- From: Kolb-List Digest Server Sent: Fri, Sep 17, 2010 2:57 am Subject: Kolb-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 09/16/10 * ======================= ======================= Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive ======================= ======================= Today's complete Kolb-List Digest can also be found in either of the wo Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted n HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes nd Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version f the Kolb-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor uch as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=ht ml&Chapter 10-09-16&Archive=Kolb Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=tx t&Chapter 10-09-16&Archive=Kolb ======================= ====================== EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive ======================= ====================== ---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 09/16/10: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- oday's Message Index: --------------------- 1. 05:51 AM - That pesky ELSA re-registration problem (Richard Girard ) 2. 10:36 AM - Annual Condition Inspection checklist for Kolbra (Ralph B) 3. 11:24 AM - Re: Annual Condition Inspection checklist for Kolbra (R alph ) 4. 11:52 AM - Scott Thompson's accident (Mike Welch) 5. 02:04 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Mike Welch) 6. 02:20 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (PCKing) 7. 02:41 PM - my email address (Mike Welch) 8. 04:51 PM - Here's what I have gathered; (Mike Welch) 9. 05:36 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (ces308) 10. 05:42 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (Ralph B) 11. 07:25 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (PCKing) 12. 07:47 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (John Hauck) 13. 07:56 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (Mike Welch) 14. 08:03 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Daniel Myers) 15. 08:09 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Mike Welch) 16. 09:27 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (Richard Girard) 17. 09:39 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Daniel Myers) 18. 10:01 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Mike Welch) _______________________________ Message 1 ______________________________ _______ ime: 05:51:16 AM PST US ubject: Kolb-List: That pesky ELSA re-registration problem rom: Richard Girard After much thought about how to make it legal to re-register an ELSA that he owner has allowed the registration to expire under the terms of the new ule I sent the following to the applicable FAA personnel this morning. "Dear Sirs, There is a problem with the new rule for triennial e-registration of aircraft when it is applied to experimental light sport ircraft (ELSA) that were registered under the provisions of FAR 21.191 (1). f an owner of an ELSA fails to re-register during the applicable period an d he registration expires there is no legal means to register the aircraft gain. AR 21.191 i(1) expired on January 3, 2008. Form 8050-88A (Affidavit of wnership) that is required to be filed along with 8050-1 to register an LSA has been revised so that the only two options for registering an ELSA re through FAR 21.191 i(2) (aircraft built from a kit of a qualifying pecial light sport aircraft (SLSA)) and FAR 21.190 (essentially for anufacturers who need to register a prototype to do compliance testing of n SLSA). believe there is a simple way to fix this problem. Revise form 8050-88A to nclude an option to the effect, "this aircraft was previously registered as _______ under the provisions of FAR 21.191 i(1) and the paperwork is on ile with the FAA". I believe wording like this or similar would allow an rrant owner to re-register the aircraft following expiration with a minimu m f problems and prevent those who might try to use the provision to registe r n aircraft that had not previously been registered. hank you for your time." I did this after spending a good portion of yesterday morning talking and riting to various officials in the FAA about the problem. It occurred to me ate last night that the easiest way to get something fixed when there is a roblem is to present a solution to those who can remedy it. What the heck, t's worth a try. Rick Girard -- ulu Delta olb Mk IIIC 82 Gray head .00 C gearbox blade WD hanks, Homer GBYM It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unab le o imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong. - G.K. Chesterton ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________ ________ ime: 10:36:54 AM PST US ubject: Kolb-List: Annual Condition Inspection checklist for Kolbra rom: "Ralph B" ravis Brown from Kolb asked it I would post the Annual Condition inspectio n hecklist or the Kolbra. This checklist will work for other Kolbs too. Ralph B -------- alph B riginal Firestar 447 91493 E-AB 000 hours 3 years flying it olbra 912UL 20386 years flying it 20 hrs ead this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312658#312658 ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/annual_inspection_checklist_179.doc _______________________________ Message 3 ______________________________ _______ ime: 11:24:48 AM PST US ubject: Kolb-List: Re: Annual Condition Inspection checklist for Kolbra rom: "Ralph B" fter the inspection is finished, post these words in the aircraft logbook: date I certify this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with the scope nd detail of appendix D to Part 43 and found to be in a condition for safe peration. Flight time: XXX.X hours ame of inspector ert #xxxxxxxx -------- alph B riginal Firestar 447 91493 E-AB 000 hours 3 years flying it olbra 912UL 20386 years flying it 20 hrs ead this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312666#312666 _______________________________ Message 4 ______________________________ _______ ime: 11:52:12 AM PST US rom: Mike Welch ubject: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident olb guys=2C I have tried to find out exactly what happened to cause Scott's fatal cr a h. hy? Because it matters a HELL of a lot to me!! At first=2C I thought I'd share what 've found with the entire list=2C then=2C I thought someone may gripe abou it. So=2C if anyone wants to know some of the details about what happened =2C ncluding hat Scott and I discussed a few days prior to his maiden flight=2C email m off he Kolb list=2C and I will share with you what I have found out. Mike Welch ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________ ________ ime: 02:04:08 PM PST US rom: Mike Welch ubject: RE: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident ist members=2C I've had a few guys check in=2C but I'm waiting a little while for few more before we get the conversation going. The primary reason is for the 'off-list' discussion is I can picture omeone asking me "who the hell do you think you are.....?" Me? Nobody. ust a friend of Scott's that would like to figure out what happened=2C hat's all. I sick and damn tired of hearing about my Kolb buddies ieing. I'd like to find out why they died...and do my best not to repeat heir 'mistakes'=2C without trying to pass judgement on them. Mike Welch ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________ ________ ime: 02:20:48 PM PST US rom: "PCKing" ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident ike, You may not have received many offline requests because everyone on the ist doesn't have your email address. I met Scott at AirVenture this year. We spoke about where to source ileron and flap control seals. I was sad to hear that he'd passed away est flying something he was so proud of. I'd like to know what happened. Peter C. King c.king@comcast.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Welch To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 5:00 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident List members, I've had a few guys check in, but I'm waiting a little while for a few more before we get the conversation going. The primary reason is for the 'off-list' discussion is I can picture someone asking me "who the hell do you think you are.....?" Me? obody. Just a friend of Scott's that would like to figure out what happened, that's all. I sick and damn tired of hearing about my Kolb buddies dieing. I'd like to find out why they died...and do my best not to epeat their 'mistakes', without trying to pass judgement on them. Mike Welch _______________________________ Message 7 ______________________________ _______ ime: 02:41:30 PM PST US rom: Mike Welch ubject: Kolb-List: my email address y email address is=3B mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com (don't forget the '7'!! !) Mike Welch ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________ ________ ime: 04:51:45 PM PST US rom: Mike Welch ubject: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered; ist members=2C I have had many members ask me to bring this subject mat te out in the pen. Plus=2C there are way too many people now=2C for me to reply to. (a proaching 30+) ere is what I have this far!! My initial thought was to discuss Scott's accident openly with this list 2C but then I thought 'd be criticized by someone for acting like an investigator. Well=2C I' m OT an investigator=2C ut I certainly am curious about the facts that caused Scott's death=2C esp cially since I do ot want to duplicate them. Then=2C I thought maybe the subject would be best discussed privately bet een those only ho show an interest. Last count=2C I've had about 14 responders=2C so may e we should just ring this out in the open. (I had the same concern regarding John Ratcliffe's accident a few months go. Yet=2C I didn't ay anything=2C and John was soon forgotten=2C it appears. I did some chec ing on his situation=2C nd it seems he must have stalled near turning base to final=2C and nosed i in.) With regard to Scott=2C here is what I have found out. This is by NO me ns any kind of official eport=2C nor do I profess to have all the answers. Additionally=2C I acce t any and all new information hat may correct anything that I may misstate. A few days before Scott made his intitial flight=2C I asked him where he ad his main wing's and is h. stabilizers set at (since the Oshkosh photos made the h.s. look like they were too high) is answer to me was " the main wing is set at where Bryan (@ Kolb Aircraft told him to set them." e went on to say "the h. stabilizers are set like the factory recommends 2C but after he's flown or awhile=2C he can adjust that setting later. (I wish!!) So=2C at this point=2C as far as I know=2C he had the wing incidenc es and hor. stabilizers incidences set ccording to the factory recommended locations! Next=2C when I read one of the news reports from one of the local new s s urces=2C I saw where they aid "according to the initial investigators=2C there didn't 'appear' to be anything wrong with the irplane. That would seem to make sense=2C knowing what a perfectionist Sc tt was. The weather was basically calm=2C although at 8:00pm=2C when the acc ident happened=2C twilight was etting. Light=2C however=2C is NOT likely to be a factor. From discussing this situation with 'others'=2C I have been told Scott ha some introductory flights n a MkIII. Most likely=2C Scott would not have flown solo during this int oductory flight. In one of the news articles=2C it mentioned Scott got his Sport Pilot li ense last year. This would ndicate he probably didn't have a lot of flying time=2C especially when yo consider he was spending lot of time trying to finish building his plane! Scott was=2C you coul d ay=2C 'a low-time' pilot. So=2C up to this point=2C the plane itself=2C the weather=2C the lighting 2C and the wing's incidences=2C don't appear o have caused the accident. What's left?? According to Carol=3B Scott took off and flew around a cou le of times=2C and when he came n to land=2C it just nose-dived in. It landed initially on the pacemen t 2C but continued to tumble onto the rass. What does this tell us? If Carol is complete in her description=2C and a l Scott did was "fly around a ouple of times" =2C and then try to land=2C this tells us he did NOT climb to altitude and explore the plane's lying parameters. It primarily tells us he did not find out the plane's E ACT stall speed=2C and now we'll ever know! With the fact that Scott was=3B ) a low-time pilot=2C and ) flying a plane that he may not have known the stall speed of ) the mishap occurred at the runway threshold=2C coming in for his 1st lan ing I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final=2C where it nose -di ed into the runway=2C and rolled. If these events are indeed accurate and correct=2C I am very sad=2C becau e they seem to be so avoidable. will miss Scott. I'm am sorry he misjudged the situation=2C and let it g t out of control (if these facts re accurate). Training=2C people=2C training!! Having crashed an ultralight simil ar to these circumstances=2C all I can say s these accidents can be avoided=2C or at least minimized with proper fl ig t education. These are the facts as I've been able to acertain. If anyone knows more 2C please share it with us. f I've mistated something=2C please correct the record. Best regards to all=2C ike Welch ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________ ________ ime: 05:36:35 PM PST US ubject: Kolb-List: Re: Here's what I have gathered; rom: "ces308" hank you Mike, I am sorry for Scott,but it does appear he made a terrible mistake,however ,It's ice to here there doesn't appear to have been a fault of the aircraft. These are fun airplanes to fly,but to an even greater degree because of th ere ack f weight to keep things going,you need to be very aware of your airspeed n final...where my 172 flies right through a wind gust,my M3X will stop fl ying nd you can never forget that. Thanks again for the information...every one CAN learn from this ,if they isten. chris ambrose 3X/Jabiru 150.3 hrs 2500. total 327CS ead this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312697#312697 _______________________________ Message 10 _____________________________ _______ ime: 05:42:23 PM PST US ubject: Kolb-List: Re: Here's what I have gathered; rom: "Ralph B" ike, I'm not an accident investigator either, but I do know that many fata l ccidents ccur due to stall-spins on landing. I was once told, "If there is any ne thing to remember about flying, it's airspeed". This is especially true upon anding. It would be better to come in hot and use up runway than to bend p your airplane or hurt yourself. It's a fine line sometimes to slow it up or o off the end of a short runway. I tend to keep more speed than most pilot s nd maybe this has saved me a few times. Kolb's, like other light aircraft have ore built-in drag than heavy and clean ones. They tend to lose speed more uickly. his means keeping the power on and nose down until it's on the ground. t's all about speed. Without that, the wings don't lift. Ralph B -------- alph B riginal Firestar 447 91493 E-AB 000 hours 3 years flying it olbra 912UL 20386 years flying it 20 hrs ead this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312698#312698 _______________________________ Message 11 _____________________________ _______ ime: 07:25:38 PM PST US rom: "PCKing" ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered; Mike, Thank you. Brian Carpenter (Rainbow Aviation) just did a webinar titled "GA to LSA: ake a Safe Transition" He makes a compelling case for maintaining irspeed on final because of the low mass and high drag of the fat ltralight LSAs. He describes them as a cotton ball compared to the GA olf ball. The highest percentage of LSA accidents occur with GA pilots t the stick. The webinar is archived at http://www.eaavideo.org/channel.aspx?ch=ch_webinars Peter C. King ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Welch To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 7:48 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered; List members, I have had many members ask me to bring this subject atter out in the open. Plus, there are way too many people now, for me to reply to. approaching 30+) Here is what I have this far!! My initial thought was to discuss Scott's accident openly with this ist, but then I thought I'd be criticized by someone for acting like an investigator. Well, 'm NOT an investigator, but I certainly am curious about the facts that caused Scott's death, specially since I do not want to duplicate them. Then, I thought maybe the subject would be best discussed privately etween those only who show an interest. Last count, I've had about 14 responders, so aybe we should just bring this out in the open. (I had the same concern regarding John Ratcliffe's accident a few onths ago. Yet, I didn't say anything, and John was soon forgotten, it appears. I did some hecking on his situation, and it seems he must have stalled near turning base to final, and osed it in.) With regard to Scott, here is what I have found out. This is by NO eans any kind of official report, nor do I profess to have all the answers. Additionally, I ccept any and all new information that may correct anything that I may misstate. A few days before Scott made his intitial flight, I asked him where e had his main wing's and his h. stabilizers set at (since the Oshkosh photos made the h.s. look ike they were too high) His answer to me was " the main wing is set at where Bryan (@ Kolb ircraft) told him to set them." He went on to say "the h. stabilizers are set like the factory ecommends, but after he's flown for awhile, he can adjust that setting later. (I wish!!) So, at this point, as far as I know, he had the wing incidences and or. stabilizers incidences set according to the factory recommended locations! Next, when I read one of the news reports from one of the local ews sources, I saw where they said "according to the initial investigators, there didn't 'appear' to e anything wrong with the airplane. That would seem to make sense, knowing what a perfectionist cott was. The weather was basically calm, although at 8:00pm, when the ccident happened, twilight was setting. Light, however, is NOT likely to be a factor. From discussing this situation with 'others', I have been told Scott ad some introductory flights in a MkIII. Most likely, Scott would not have flown solo during this ntroductory flight. In one of the news articles, it mentioned Scott got his Sport Pilot icense last year. This would indicate he probably didn't have a lot of flying time, especially when ou consider he was spending a lot of time trying to finish building his plane! Scott was, you ould say, 'a low-time' pilot. So, up to this point, the plane itself, the weather, the lighting, nd the wing's incidences, don't appear to have caused the accident. What's left?? According to Carol; Scott took off and flew around a ouple of times, and when he came in to land, it just nose-dived in. It landed initially on the acement, but continued to tumble onto the grass. What does this tell us? If Carol is complete in her description, nd all Scott did was "fly around a couple of times" , and then try to land, this tells us he did NOT limb to altitude and explore the plane's flying parameters. It primarily tells us he did not find out the lane's EXACT stall speed, and now we'll never know! With the fact that Scott was; A) a low-time pilot, and B) flying a plane that he may not have known the stall speed of C) the mishap occurred at the runway threshold, coming in for his 1st anding I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final, where it ose-dived into the runway, and rolled. If these events are indeed accurate and correct, I am very sad, ecause they seem to be so avoidable. I will miss Scott. I'm am sorry he misjudged the situation, and let t get out of control (if these facts are accurate). Training, people, training!! Having crashed an ultralight similar o these circumstances, all I can say is these accidents can be avoided, or at least minimized with proper light education. These are the facts as I've been able to acertain. If anyone knows ore, please share it with us. If I've mistated something, please correct the record. Best regards to all, Mike Welch _______________________________ Message 12 _____________________________ _______ ime: 07:47:04 PM PST US rom: "John Hauck" ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident Mike W: Have you discussed your findings with the NTSB? Maybe your information would help in their investigation and their etermination of the cause of the accident. john h kIII ock House, OR I have tried to find out exactly what happened to cause Scott's atal crash. Why? Because it matters a HELL of a lot to me!! At first, I thought 'd share what I've found with the entire list, then, I thought someone may gripe bout it. So, if anyone wants to know some of the details about what happened, ncluding what Scott and I discussed a few days prior to his maiden flight, mail me off the Kolb list, and I will share with you what I have found out. Mike Welch ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________ ________ ime: 07:56:23 PM PST US rom: Mike Welch ubject: RE: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered; eter=2C Certainly there is no disputing that some GA pilots do seem to have trou b e ransitioning from the factory iron to the lighter=2C less mass SLA or li gh planes. However=2C in Scott's case=2C I'm afraid that "transitioning" wasn't the ssue=2C because ince he only got his Sport Pilot license last year=2C he couldn't have had very many ours in GA airplanes. At least=2C that's what I'm led to believe. Additionally=2C Carol described him as 'coming in for a landing' and th en he sort of nose-dived". This scenario is much more indicative of an approach-to-land ng- tall=2C rather than the typical GA to LSA failure to handle the mass dif fe ences etween the two (at touchdown). Airspeed is one thing you cannot ignor when flying an airplane=2C lest th ground ise up and smite thee!!! Mike Welch ike=2C Thank you. Brian Carpenter (Rainbow Aviation) just did a webinar titled "GA to LSA: Ma e a Safe Transition" He makes a compelling case for maintaining airspeed o final because of the low mass and high drag of the fat ultralight LSAs. H describes them as a cotton ball compared to the GA golf ball. The highest percentage of LSA accidents occur with GA pilots at the stick. The webinar is archived at http://www.eaavideo.org/channel.aspx?ch=ch_webinars Peter C. King ---- Original Message ----- rom: Mike Welch ent: Thursday=2C September 16=2C 2010 7:48 PM ubject: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered=3B List members=2C I have had many members ask me to bring this subject ma tte out in the pen. Plus=2C there are way too many people now=2C for me to reply to. (a proaching 30+) ere is what I have this far!! My initial thought was to discuss Scott's accident openly with this list 2C but then I thought 'd be criticized by someone for acting like an investigator. Well=2C I' m OT an investigator=2C ut I certainly am curious about the facts that caused Scott's death=2C esp cially since I do ot want to duplicate them. Then=2C I thought maybe the subject would be best discussed privately bet een those only ho show an interest. Last count=2C I've had about 14 responders=2C so may e we should just ring this out in the open. (I had the same concern regarding John Ratcliffe's accident a few months go. Yet=2C I didn't ay anything=2C and John was soon forgotten=2C it appears. I did some chec ing on his situation=2C nd it seems he must have stalled near turning base to final=2C and nosed i in.) With regard to Scott=2C here is what I have found out. This is by NO me ns any kind of official eport=2C nor do I profess to have all the answers. Additionally=2C I acce t any and all new information hat may correct anything that I may misstate. A few days before Scott made his intitial flight=2C I asked him where he ad his main wing's and is h. stabilizers set at (since the Oshkosh photos made the h.s. look like they were too high) is answer to me was " the main wing is set at where Bryan (@ Kolb Aircraft told him to set them." e went on to say "the h. stabilizers are set like the factory recommends 2C but after he's flown or awhile=2C he can adjust that setting later. (I wish!!) So=2C at this point=2C as far as I know=2C he had the wing incidenc es and hor. stabilizers incidences set ccording to the factory recommended locations! Next=2C when I read one of the news reports from one of the local new s s urces=2C I saw where they aid "according to the initial investigators=2C there didn't 'appear' to be anything wrong with the irplane. That would seem to make sense=2C knowing what a perfectionist Sc tt was. The weather was basically calm=2C although at 8:00pm=2C when the acc ident happened=2C twilight was etting. Light=2C however=2C is NOT likely to be a factor. From discussing this situation with 'others'=2C I have been told Scott ha some introductory flights n a MkIII. Most likely=2C Scott would not have flown solo during this int oductory flight. In one of the news articles=2C it mentioned Scott got his Sport Pilot li ense last year. This would ndicate he probably didn't have a lot of flying time=2C especially when yo consider he was spending lot of time trying to finish building his plane! Scott was=2C you coul d ay=2C 'a low-time' pilot. So=2C up to this point=2C the plane itself=2C the weather=2C the lighting 2C and the wing's incidences=2C don't appear o have caused the accident. What's left?? According to Carol=3B Scott took off and flew around a cou le of times=2C and when he came n to land=2C it just nose-dived in. It landed initially on the pacemen t 2C but continued to tumble onto the rass. What does this tell us? If Carol is complete in her description=2C and a l Scott did was "fly around a ouple of times" =2C and then try to land=2C this tells us he did NOT climb to altitude and explore the plane's lying parameters. It primarily tells us he did not find out the plane's E ACT stall speed=2C and now we'll ever know! With the fact that Scott was=3B ) a low-time pilot=2C and ) flying a plane that he may not have known the stall speed of ) the mishap occurred at the runway threshold=2C coming in for his 1st lan ing I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final=2C where it nose -di ed into the runway=2C and rolled. If these events are indeed accurate and correct=2C I am very sad=2C becau e they seem to be so avoidable. will miss Scott. I'm am sorry he misjudged the situation=2C and let it g t out of control (if these facts re accurate). Training=2C people=2C training!! Having crashed an ultralight simil ar to these circumstances=2C all I can say s these accidents can be avoided=2C or at least minimized with proper fl ig t education. These are the facts as I've been able to acertain. If anyone knows more 2C please share it with us. f I've mistated something=2C please correct the record. Best regards to all=2C ike Welch ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics. om/Navigator?Kolb-List ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________ ________ ime: 08:03:33 PM PST US ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident rom: Daniel Myers Class move John I like it aniel Sent from my iPhone On Sep 16=2C 2010=2C at 3:23 PM=2C "John Hauck" wrot : > Mike W: Have you discussed your findings with the NTSB? Maybe your information would help in their investigation and their determ nation of the cause of the accident. john h mkIII Rock House=2C OR I have tried to find out exactly what happened to cause Scott's fatal rash. Why? Because it matters a HELL of a lot to me!! At first=2C I thought I d share what I've found with the entire list=2C then=2C I thought someone may grip e ab ut it. So=2C if anyone wants to know some of the details about what happened 2C including what Scott and I discussed a few days prior to his maiden flight=2C ema il me off the Kolb list=2C and I will share with you what I have found out. Mike Welch ======== ======== ======== ======== ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________ ________ ime: 08:09:48 PM PST US rom: Mike Welch ubject: RE: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident Mike W: >Have you discussed your findings with the NTSB? >Maybe your information would help in their investigation and their determ i ation of >the cause of the accident. >john h mkIII John H=2C No=2C I haven't=2C but I will be calling them tomorrow. But the fac t is 2C I shared hat little information I dug up=2C and packaged into one concise email. T e nformation I gathered was either reading it in news articles relating to t e rash (in otherwords...public information)=2C my emails with Scott=2C just rior o his flight=2C and telephone conversations with a couple of Kolb list mem ers. I'm simply trying to save lives. Do you have a problem with my discuss i n? m I supposed to contact that NTSB to show a concern for Kolb pilots? Mike Welch ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________ ________ ime: 09:27:32 PM PST US ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered; rom: Richard Girard Whoa! Let's get something straight. Gusts and wind affect glide path and round speed, not airspeed. The danger is inexperienced pilots who get ixated on a point and pull back on the stick in an effort to maintain glid e oward that point. The only thing that counts is airspeed, period. s I told Mike when we talked on Sunday, I have a mantra that goes on in my ead, and sometimes out loud, from the moment I pull power back from cruise o set up an approach. It's just two words, Hold 50. If you watched the ideo I made about the sight picture as it changes for flap settings, you an hear me over the sound of the 582 saying, "turning final, HOLD 50". It' s y choice of approach airspeed for my Mk III based upon the stall speeds I ocumented. It makes absolutely no difference if I hold some power in eserve or close the throttle completely, it's HOLD 50 and it stays HOLD 50 ntil I pull back on the stick to round out and let her settle to the round. If I'm a little too high on approach, which I actually prefer, I ca n lip Zulu Delta to lose altitude a little faster, and I still HOLD 50. Rick Girard On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 9:18 PM, PCKing wrote: > Mike, Thank you. Brian Carpenter (Rainbow Aviation) just did a webinar titled "GA to LSA: Make a Safe Transition" He makes a compelling case for maintaining airspe ed on final because of the low mass and high drag of the fat ultralight LSAs .. He describes them as a cotton ball compared to the GA golf ball. The high est percentage of LSA accidents occur with GA pilots at the stick. The webinar is archived at http://www.eaavideo.org/channel.aspx?ch=ch_webinars Peter C. King ----- Original Message ----- *From:* Mike Welch *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com *Sent:* Thursday, September 16, 2010 7:48 PM *Subject:* Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered; List members, I have had many members ask me to bring this subject matte r out in the open. Plus, there are way too many people now, for me to reply to. (approaching 30+) Here is what I have this far!! My initial thought was to discuss Scott's accident openly with this list, but then I thought I'd be criticized by someone for acting like an investigator. Well, I'm NOT an investigator, but I certainly am curious about the facts that caused Scott's death, especially since I do not want to duplicate them. Then, I thought maybe the subject would be best discussed privately between those only who show an interest. Last count, I've had about 14 responders, so maybe we should just bring this out in the open. (I had the same concern regarding John Ratcliffe's accident a few month s ago. Yet, I didn't say anything, and John was soon forgotten, it appears. I did some checki ng on his situation, and it seems he must have stalled near turning base to final, and nosed it in.) With regard to Scott, here is what I have found out. This is by NO means any kind of official report, nor do I profess to have all the answers. Additionally, I accept any and all new information that may correct anything that I may misstate. A few days before Scott made his intitial flight, I asked him where he had his main wing's and his h. stabilizers set at (since the Oshkosh photos made the h.s. look li ke they were too high) His answer to me was " the main wing is set at where Bryan (@ Kolb Aircraft) told him to set them." He went on to say "the h. stabilizers are set like the factory recommends , but after he's flown for awhile, he can adjust that setting later. (I wish!!) So, at this point, as far as I know, he had the wing incidences and hor .. stabilizers incidences set according to the factory recommended locations! Next, when I read one of the news reports from one of the local news sources, I saw where they said "according to the initial investigators, there didn't 'appear' to be anything wrong with the airplane. That would seem to make sense, knowing what a perfectionist Scott was. The weather was basically calm, although at 8:00pm, when the accident happened, twilight was setting. Light, however, is NOT likely to be a factor. From discussing this situation with 'others', I have been told Scott ha d some introductory flights in a MkIII. Most likely, Scott would not have flown solo during this introductory flight. In one of the news articles, it mentioned Scott got his Sport Pilot license last year. This would indicate he probably didn't have a lot of flying time, especially when yo u consider he was spending a lot of time trying to finish building his plane! Scott was, you could say, 'a low-time' pilot. So, up to this point, the plane itself, the weather, the lighting, and the wing's incidences, don't appear to have caused the accident. What's left?? According to Carol; Scott took off and flew around a couple of times, and when he came in to land, it just nose-dived in. It landed initially on the pacement, but continued to tumble onto the grass. What does this tell us? If Carol is complete in her description, and all Scott did was "fly around a couple of times" , and then try to land, this tells us he did NOT climb to altitude and explore the plane's flying parameters. It primarily tells us he did not find out the plane's EXACT stall speed, and now we'll never know! With the fact that Scott was; A) a low-time pilot, and B) flying a plane that he may not have known the stall speed of C) the mishap occurred at the runway threshold, coming in for his 1st landing I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final, where it nose-dived into the runway, and rolled. If these events are indeed accurate and correct, I am very sad, because they seem to be so avoidable. I will miss Scott. I'm am sorry he misjudged the situation, and let it get out of control (if these facts are accurate). Training, people, training!! Having crashed an ultralight similar to these circumstances, all I can say is these accidents can be avoided, or at least minimized with proper flig ht education. These are the facts as I've been able to acertain. If anyone knows mor e, please share it with us. If I've mistated something, please correct the record. Best regards to all, Mike Welch * href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c * * * - ulu Delta olb Mk IIIC 82 Gray head .00 C gearbox blade WD hanks, Homer GBYM It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unab le o imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong. - G.K. Chesterton ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________ ________ ime: 09:39:45 PM PST US ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident rom: Daniel Myers Mike=2C my uncle died in my kolb and no one knows what happened except for im. Kolbs Are great planes but are very unforgiving. I continue to fly Kol s only because I know not to get close to that stall speed. I have only ow ed two Kolbs but I know the limits..this guy was on his first flight=2C it s a terrible situation because he didn't know the kolb and it's limits. aniel Sent from my iPhoned On Sep 16=2C 2010=2C at 11:06 PM=2C Mike Welch wr te: > >Mike W: >Have you discussed your findings with the NTSB? >Maybe your information would help in their investigation and their deter ination of >the cause of the accident. >john h >mkIII John H=2C No=2C I haven't=2C but I will be calling them tomorrow. But the fa ct i =2C I shared what little information I dug up=2C and packaged into one concise email . The information I gathered was either reading it in news articles relating to the crash (in otherwords...public information)=2C my emails with Scott=2C jus prior to his flight=2C and telephone conversations with a couple of Kolb list m mbers. I'm simply trying to save lives. Do you have a problem with my discus ion? Am I supposed to contact that NTSB to show a concern for Kolb pilots? Mike Welch ======== ======== ======== ======== ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________ ________ ime: 10:01:06 PM PST US rom: Mike Welch ubject: RE: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident ike=2C my uncle died in my kolb and no one knows what happened except fo r im. Kolbs Are great planes but are very unforgiving. I continue to fly Kol s only because I know not to get close to that stall speed. I have only ow ed two Kolbs but I know the limits..this guy was on his first flight=2C it s a terrible situation because he didn't know the kolb and it's limits. aniel Daniel=2C You are exactly right (with your last statement). I am afraid it is pos s ble it is as simple as e may have simply misjudged what he was doing. Of course=2C we will nev er know the whole truth now. It is only my intention to help educate those of us who fly=2C or are yet to fly=2C their Kolb aircraft. rashing and dieing does little good to both the families left behind and t e reputation of the aircraft. I ould like to reduce the damage by analyzing what we know=2C and learn fr om our errors. Believe it or ot=2C there may be people who have a problem with that. Mike Welch y condolences regarding your uncle=2C Daniel. -======================= ======================= ========== -= - The Kolb-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List - -======================= ======================= ========== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================= ======================= ========== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================= ======================= ========== ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:30 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Upgrading from current 4.00-6 "Garden" tires. From: "gotime242" Thanks, i just wanted to be sure it was ok/safe to go wider than recommended or than the width of the rim since there is only 4.00's on there now. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312833#312833 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:19 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: kolb stall From: Richard Neilsen Hey All There has been a lot of good discussion since Scott's tragic accident. My concern is that it leaves the impression that there is a problem or bad flight characteristic with our airplanes which there is not. I'm not a major high time pilot but I have had the opportunity to fly quite a few different airplanes and none are as good as our Kolbs. Our planes have tremendous short field capabilities that when fully utilized (flaps and no power landings) does require a high level of precision. Pilots new to the Kolb flight characteristics will have problems with these flight characteristics no matter how skilled they are in other aircraft. Land with power and stay away from the flaps till you get very good at it. Then very gradually land with less power OR using more flaps. Don't progress too quickly. I have a set of fully retracted Kolb landing gear legs that I bent when I progressed to full flaps and no power way too quickly. Flight instructors not used to our Kolbs don't train us how to handle our Kolbs properly/safely. I recently got my check ride with a GA instructor in my Kolb. I was praised for how well I flew the plane in everything but how I flew very short final. He felt I rounded out way too low and with too much airspeed. I think this is a very common mistake that most non Kolb instructors will make. Let me also explain I did fly a bit faster approach rounded out lower because my instructor was a good 100 lbs heaver than anyone I had ever flown in my plane and I was using a very long 2500 ft grass strip. Yes we were a bit over gross weight. Rick Neilsen 1st Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:16:39 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: kolb stall -------------------------------------------------- "John Hauck" wrote: (09/17/2010 16:35) > I know nothing of the results of the investigations, but a Kolb in a nose > high attitude that runs out of airspeed will drop the nose and normally a > wing.... Especially if it's a new airplane that might not be properly trimmed out yet. -Dana ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:41:04 PM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: Kolb-List: airspeed indicator calibration Kolb guys=2C I am in the process of installing all the instruments in my MkIII. One o f the instruments is an analog airspeed indicator. It's a standard=2C typical ty pe of indicator that uses ram air to determine it's reading=2C by way of a pitot tube. Out of the box=2C I can't imagine it can be very accurate=2C can it? I m ean=2C everybody will have their own unique design in installing one of these=2C so I would think that each installation would be off a little from someone else's installation. Or=2C are they much more uniform in their readings? I have the exact placement in my panel and the routing of the tubing pret ty much figured out. For those guys that have installed an airspeed indicator=2C did you calib rate it in any way first=2C or did you just stick it in the plane and live with whatever reading it say s once you start flying the plane? I thought what I would do is essentially build the whole system=2C and ge t someone to drive a car down the road=2C with me hanging the A/S indicator's pitot tube out t he window. While this may seem somewhat silly=2C at least I could an idea how accurate it might b e. At least it's a start=2C right? Has anybody done this?? Or is it a waste of time? For an instrument that has so much riding on it=2C and if new=2C hasn't r eally proven itself for accuracy=2C it seems to me a guy ought to verify in some way it comes "clos e" to the correct airspeed. Any thoughts or experiences would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Mike Welch MkIII ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:02:46 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: airspeed indicator calibration The instrument itself should be quite accurate, but pressure variations at the pitot and static sources can throw it way off. The pressure field around a moving car will make any such calibration meaningless, too. Put it in the plane. You can use your GPS to calibrate it on a dead calm day, or average readings into and with a steady wind. -Dana -------------------------------------------------- Mike Welch wrote: (09/18/2010 18:35) > > Kolb guys, > > I am in the process of installing all the instruments in my MkIII. One of the > instruments is an analog airspeed indicator. It's a standard, typical type of indicator that uses > ram air to determine it's reading, by way of a pitot tube. > > Out of the box, I can't imagine it can be very accurate, can it? I mean, everybody will have > their own unique design in installing one of these, so I would think that each installation would > be off a little from someone else's installation. Or, are they much more uniform in their > readings? > > I have the exact placement in my panel and the routing of the tubing pretty much figured out. > > For those guys that have installed an airspeed indicator, did you calibrate it in any way first, > or did you just stick it in the plane and live with whatever reading it says once you start > flying the plane? > > I thought what I would do is essentially build the whole system, and get someone to drive > a car down the road, with me hanging the A/S indicator's pitot tube out the window. While this > may seem somewhat silly, at least I could an idea how accurate it might be. At least it's a start, > right? Has anybody done this?? Or is it a waste of time? > > For an instrument that has so much riding on it, and if new, hasn't really proven itself for > accuracy, it seems to me a guy ought to verify in some way it comes "close" to the correct > airspeed. > > Any thoughts or experiences would be greatly appreciated. Thanks > > Mike Welch > MkIII > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:28:51 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: airspeed indicator calibration From: "Richard Pike" IMO, it is almost impossible to calibrate an airspeed indicator unless it is in the airplane, because of the variables involved in each installation. When we first flew the FSII, we had screwy airspeed readings, and it turned out we had two problems: one was with the indicator, the other was the pitot location. Fixed the location of the pitot, but the numbers were till odd, so tried an experiment. Strapped a piece of 1 1/2" aluminum tubing onto the roof rack of the Jeep so that the forward end was ahead of and well above the hood (no bow wave allowed) and ran a piece of vinyl tubing to the airspeed indicator. Wrote down the numbers at various speeds, then swapped out the airspeed indicator with another that was known to be good, did it again, and there was quite a disparity. But all that did was prove that the original airspeed indicator was bad. Bought a new one and put it in the airplane and flew it, and compared it to the GPS. It was good enough that we left it alone. Wonder if we hurt it in the wreck? Guess we'll find out in a couple months. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312875#312875 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:27:46 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Here's what I have gathered; From: "R. Hankins" "The kolb stall is very unforgiving-trust me... " h20maule, Your statement is incorrect. It should read: "The stall of my kolb is very unforgiving-trust me... ". I have never flown your kolb, but I have flown 2 MarkIIIs, 4 firestars and a Kolbra and none of them had unforgiving stall characteristics. The worst one was mine when I had the VGs mounted too far back. This was the only kolb I have flown that had a sharp stall break, but recovery was still quick, straightforward and uneventful. Moving the VGs forward gave me back my gentle airplane. Unforgiving is a pretty subjective term. Can you describe what it is about stalls in your kolb that makes them less than desirable? Maybe there is something unique about your plane that can be changed to improve its handling? -------- Roger in Oregon 1992 KXP 503 - N1782C Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312882#312882 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:55:28 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: RE: Kolb-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 09/18/10 From: Richard Girard Thanks for sharing. Perhaps a reding primer would be more appropriate. Rick On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 2:52 AM, Go Flying wrote: > > I have decided to unsubscribe to the Matronics lists, there is nearly no > traffic and no content to red. > > Chris Norman, CEO > www.digitalrealitycorp.com > > owner www.goflying.co > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kolb-List > Digest > Server > Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 1:58 AM > To: Kolb-List Digest List > Subject: Kolb-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 09/18/10 > > * > > ================================================= > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive > ================================================= > > Today's complete Kolb-List Digest can also be found in either of the > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version > of the Kolb-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor > such as Notepad or with a web browser. > > HTML Version: > > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter > 10-09-18&Archive=Kolb > > Text Version: > > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter > 2010-09-18&Archive=Kolb > > > =============================================== > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive > =============================================== > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Kolb-List Digest Archive > --- > Total Messages Posted Sat 09/18/10: 10 > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > Today's Message Index: > ---------------------- > > 1. 03:12 AM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Fran Losey) > 2. 03:36 AM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (william sullivan) > 3. 05:34 AM - Re: Kolb-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 09/16/10 > (icrashrc@aol.com) > 4. 07:02 AM - Re: Upgrading from current 4.00-6 "Garden" tires. > (gotime242) > 5. 07:05 AM - Re: Re: kolb stall (Richard Neilsen) > 6. 07:16 AM - Re: Re: kolb stall (Dana Hague) > 7. 03:41 PM - airspeed indicator calibration (Mike Welch) > 8. 05:02 PM - Re: airspeed indicator calibration (Dana Hague) > 9. 07:28 PM - Re: airspeed indicator calibration (Richard Pike) > 10. 09:27 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (R. Hankins) > > > ________________________________ Message 1 > _____________________________________ > > > Time: 03:12:52 AM PST US > From: Fran Losey > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident > > On 9/17/2010 12:57 AM, Mike Welch wrote: > > Mike, my uncle died in my kolb and no one knows what happened except > > for him. Kolbs Are great planes but are very unforgiving. I continue > > to fly Kolbs only because I know not to get close to that stall speed. > > I have only owned two Kolbs but I know the limits..this guy was on his > > first flight, it's a terrible situation because he didn't know the > > kolb and it's limits. > > Daniel > > > > Daniel, > > You are exactly right (with your last statement). I am afraid it is > > possible it is as simple as > > he may have simply misjudged what he was doing. Of course, we will > > never know the whole truth now. > > It is only my intention to help educate those of us who fly, or are > > yet to fly, their Kolb aircraft. > > Crashing and dieing does little good to both the families left behind > > and the reputation of the aircraft. I > > would like to reduce the damage by analyzing what we know, and learn > > from our errors. Believe it or > > not, there may be people who have a problem with that. > > Mike Welch > > My condolences regarding your uncle, Daniel. > > * > > > > > > * > Mike and all, > > Although some bantering seems to occur when sensitive discussions are > placed in the forum, I truly appreciate all feedback from all parties, > as I feel it refreshes my awareness as a pilot, and allows me to step > back for a minute, think about points that are stated, and reflect how > I would have handled (or not) such a situation. When this forum stops > these healthy (and surely painful) discussions, I will most likely leave > it... > > I am in the middle of building right now, and although I did not know > Scott personally, can say I appreciated his contributions on this forum, > and felt in my gut he was a person that would give you the shirt off his > back, asking nothing in return. > > Thanks for sharing, and listening. RIP Scott. > > -- > Sincerely, Fran Losey www.mykitlog.com\loseyf > > ________________________________ Message 2 > _____________________________________ > > > Time: 03:36:30 AM PST US > From: william sullivan > Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Scott Thompson's accident > > - I think the current thread on the accident is good for the List.- Con > jecture will bring awareness of the peculiarities of the handling of low dr > ag, high lift, low weight aircraft.- The NTSB will eventually give the pa > rticulars.- Both will be good for all.- I hope someone will maintain Sc > ott's web site, as it is an excellent reference.- We all are going to mis > s him. > - > ------------------------- > ------------------------- > Bill Sullivan > ------------------------- > ------------------------- > -Windsor Locks, Ct. > ------------------------- > ------------------------- > FS 447 > > ________________________________ Message 3 > _____________________________________ > > > Time: 05:34:54 AM PST US > Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 09/16/10 > From: icrashrc@aol.com > > For those of you who don't know me, I am Scott's wife. I can assure you th > at when he was flying around the pattern that he tested the stall speed. > He gave me a list of the things he would do on his intial flight. One of > those was stall speed. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kolb-List Digest Server > Sent: Fri, Sep 17, 2010 2:57 am > Subject: Kolb-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 09/16/10 > > > * > ======================= > ======================= > > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive > ======================= > ======================= > > Today's complete Kolb-List Digest can also be found in either of the > wo Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted > > n HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes > nd Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version > f the Kolb-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor > uch as Notepad or with a web browser. > HTML Version: > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=ht > ml&Chapter 10-09-16&Archive=Kolb > Text Version: > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=tx > t&Chapter 10-09-16&Archive=Kolb > > ======================= > ====================== > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive > ======================= > ====================== > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Kolb-List Digest Archive > --- > Total Messages Posted Thu 09/16/10: 18 > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > oday's Message Index: > --------------------- > > 1. 05:51 AM - That pesky ELSA re-registration problem (Richard Girard > ) > 2. 10:36 AM - Annual Condition Inspection checklist for Kolbra (Ralph > B) > 3. 11:24 AM - Re: Annual Condition Inspection checklist for Kolbra (R > alph > ) > 4. 11:52 AM - Scott Thompson's accident (Mike Welch) > 5. 02:04 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Mike Welch) > 6. 02:20 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (PCKing) > 7. 02:41 PM - my email address (Mike Welch) > 8. 04:51 PM - Here's what I have gathered; (Mike Welch) > 9. 05:36 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (ces308) > 10. 05:42 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (Ralph B) > 11. 07:25 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (PCKing) > 12. 07:47 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (John Hauck) > 13. 07:56 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (Mike Welch) > 14. 08:03 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Daniel Myers) > 15. 08:09 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Mike Welch) > 16. 09:27 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (Richard Girard) > 17. 09:39 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Daniel Myers) > 18. 10:01 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Mike Welch) > > > _______________________________ Message 1 ______________________________ > _______ > > ime: 05:51:16 AM PST US > ubject: Kolb-List: That pesky ELSA re-registration problem > rom: Richard Girard > After much thought about how to make it legal to re-register an ELSA that > he owner has allowed the registration to expire under the terms of the new > ule I sent the following to the applicable FAA personnel this morning. > "Dear Sirs, There is a problem with the new rule for triennial > e-registration of aircraft when it is applied to experimental light sport > ircraft (ELSA) that were registered under the provisions of FAR 21.191 > (1). > f an owner of an ELSA fails to re-register during the applicable period an > d > he registration expires there is no legal means to register the aircraft > gain. > AR 21.191 i(1) expired on January 3, 2008. Form 8050-88A (Affidavit of > wnership) that is required to be filed along with 8050-1 to register an > LSA has been revised so that the only two options for registering an ELSA > re through FAR 21.191 i(2) (aircraft built from a kit of a qualifying > pecial light sport aircraft (SLSA)) and FAR 21.190 (essentially for > anufacturers who need to register a prototype to do compliance testing of > n SLSA). > believe there is a simple way to fix this problem. Revise form 8050-88A > to > nclude an option to the effect, "this aircraft was previously registered > as > _______ under the provisions of FAR 21.191 i(1) and the paperwork is on > ile with the FAA". I believe wording like this or similar would allow an > rrant owner to re-register the aircraft following expiration with a minimu > m > f problems and prevent those who might try to use the provision to registe > r > n aircraft that had not previously been registered. > hank you for your time." > I did this after spending a good portion of yesterday morning talking and > riting to various officials in the FAA about the problem. It occurred to > me > ate last night that the easiest way to get something fixed when there is > a > roblem is to present a solution to those who can remedy it. What the heck, > t's worth a try. > Rick Girard > -- > ulu Delta > olb Mk IIIC > 82 Gray head > .00 C gearbox > blade WD > hanks, Homer GBYM > It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unab > le > o imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong. > - G.K. Chesterton > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________ > ________ > > ime: 10:36:54 AM PST US > ubject: Kolb-List: Annual Condition Inspection checklist for Kolbra > rom: "Ralph B" > > ravis Brown from Kolb asked it I would post the Annual Condition inspectio > n > hecklist > or the Kolbra. This checklist will work for other Kolbs too. > Ralph B > -------- > alph B > riginal Firestar 447 > 91493 E-AB > 000 hours > 3 years flying it > olbra 912UL > 20386 > years flying it > 20 hrs > > ead this topic online here: > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312658#312658 > > ttachments: > http://forums.matronics.com//files/annual_inspection_checklist_179.doc > > _______________________________ Message 3 ______________________________ > _______ > > ime: 11:24:48 AM PST US > ubject: Kolb-List: Re: Annual Condition Inspection checklist for Kolbra > rom: "Ralph B" > > fter the inspection is finished, post these words in the aircraft logbook: > date > I certify this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with the scope > nd detail of appendix D to Part 43 and found to be in a condition for safe > peration. > Flight time: XXX.X hours > > ame of inspector > ert #xxxxxxxx > -------- > alph B > riginal Firestar 447 > 91493 E-AB > 000 hours > 3 years flying it > olbra 912UL > 20386 > years flying it > 20 hrs > > ead this topic online here: > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312666#312666 > > _______________________________ Message 4 ______________________________ > _______ > > ime: 11:52:12 AM PST US > rom: Mike Welch > ubject: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident > > olb guys=2C > I have tried to find out exactly what happened to cause Scott's fatal cr > a > h. > hy? Because it matters a HELL of a lot to me!! At first=2C I thought > I'd > share what > 've found with the entire list=2C then=2C I thought someone may gripe > abou > it. > So=2C if anyone wants to know some of the details about what happened > =2C > ncluding > hat Scott and I discussed a few days prior to his maiden flight=2C email > m > off > he Kolb list=2C and I will share with you what I have found out. > Mike Welch > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________ > ________ > > ime: 02:04:08 PM PST US > rom: Mike Welch > ubject: RE: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident > > ist members=2C > I've had a few guys check in=2C but I'm waiting a little while for > few more before we get the conversation going. > The primary reason is for the 'off-list' discussion is I can picture > omeone asking me "who the hell do you think you are.....?" Me? Nobody. > ust a friend of Scott's that would like to figure out what happened=2C > hat's all. I sick and damn tired of hearing about my Kolb buddies > ieing. I'd like to find out why they died...and do my best not to repeat > heir 'mistakes'=2C without trying to pass judgement on them. > Mike Welch > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________ > ________ > > ime: 02:20:48 PM PST US > rom: "PCKing" > ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident > > ike, > You may not have received many offline requests because everyone on the > ist doesn't have your email address. > I met Scott at AirVenture this year. We spoke about where to source > ileron and flap control seals. I was sad to hear that he'd passed away > est flying something he was so proud of. > I'd like to know what happened. > Peter C. King > c.king@comcast.net > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Welch > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 5:00 PM > Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident > > List members, > > I've had a few guys check in, but I'm waiting a little while for > a few more before we get the conversation going. > > The primary reason is for the 'off-list' discussion is I can picture > someone asking me "who the hell do you think you are.....?" Me? > obody. > Just a friend of Scott's that would like to figure out what happened, > that's all. I sick and damn tired of hearing about my Kolb buddies > dieing. I'd like to find out why they died...and do my best not to > epeat > their 'mistakes', without trying to pass judgement on them. > > Mike Welch > > _______________________________ Message 7 ______________________________ > _______ > > ime: 02:41:30 PM PST US > rom: Mike Welch > ubject: Kolb-List: my email address > > y email address is=3B mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com (don't forget the '7'!! > !) > Mike Welch > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________ > ________ > > ime: 04:51:45 PM PST US > rom: Mike Welch > ubject: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered; > > ist members=2C I have had many members ask me to bring this subject mat > te > out in the > pen. Plus=2C there are way too many people now=2C for me to reply to. > (a > proaching 30+) > ere is what I have this far!! > My initial thought was to discuss Scott's accident openly with this list > 2C but then I thought > 'd be criticized by someone for acting like an investigator. Well=2C I' > m > OT an investigator=2C > ut I certainly am curious about the facts that caused Scott's death=2C > esp > cially since I do > ot want to duplicate them. > Then=2C I thought maybe the subject would be best discussed privately > bet > een those only > ho show an interest. Last count=2C I've had about 14 responders=2C so > may > e we should just > ring this out in the open. > (I had the same concern regarding John Ratcliffe's accident a few months > > go. Yet=2C I didn't > ay anything=2C and John was soon forgotten=2C it appears. I did some > chec > ing on his situation=2C > nd it seems he must have stalled near turning base to final=2C and nosed > i > in.) > With regard to Scott=2C here is what I have found out. This is by NO > me > ns any kind of official > eport=2C nor do I profess to have all the answers. Additionally=2C I > acce > t any and all new information > hat may correct anything that I may misstate. > A few days before Scott made his intitial flight=2C I asked him where > he > ad his main wing's and > is h. stabilizers set at (since the Oshkosh photos made the h.s. look like > they were too high) > is answer to me was " the main wing is set at where Bryan (@ Kolb Aircraft > told him to set them." > e went on to say "the h. stabilizers are set like the factory recommends > 2C but after he's flown > or awhile=2C he can adjust that setting later. (I wish!!) > So=2C at this point=2C as far as I know=2C he had the wing incidenc > es and > hor. stabilizers incidences set > ccording to the factory recommended locations! > Next=2C when I read one of the news reports from one of the local new > s s > urces=2C I saw where they > aid "according to the initial investigators=2C there didn't 'appear' to > be > anything wrong with the > irplane. That would seem to make sense=2C knowing what a perfectionist > Sc > tt was. > The weather was basically calm=2C although at 8:00pm=2C when the acc > ident > happened=2C twilight was > etting. Light=2C however=2C is NOT likely to be a factor. > From discussing this situation with 'others'=2C I have been told Scott > ha > some introductory flights > n a MkIII. Most likely=2C Scott would not have flown solo during this > int > oductory flight. > In one of the news articles=2C it mentioned Scott got his Sport Pilot > li > ense last year. This would > ndicate he probably didn't have a lot of flying time=2C especially when > yo > consider he was spending > lot of time trying to finish building his plane! Scott was=2C you coul > d > ay=2C 'a low-time' pilot. > So=2C up to this point=2C the plane itself=2C the weather=2C the > lighting > 2C and the wing's incidences=2C don't appear > o have caused the accident. > What's left?? According to Carol=3B Scott took off and flew around a > cou > le of times=2C and when he came > n to land=2C it just nose-dived in. It landed initially on the pacemen > t > 2C but continued to tumble onto the > rass. > What does this tell us? If Carol is complete in her description=2C and > a > l Scott did was "fly around a > ouple of times" =2C and then try to land=2C this tells us he did NOT > climb > to altitude and explore the plane's > lying parameters. It primarily tells us he did not find out the plane's > E > ACT stall speed=2C and now we'll > ever know! > With the fact that Scott was=3B > ) a low-time pilot=2C and > ) flying a plane that he may not have known the stall speed of > ) the mishap occurred at the runway threshold=2C coming in for his 1st > lan > ing > I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final=2C where it nose > -di > ed into the runway=2C and rolled. > If these events are indeed accurate and correct=2C I am very sad=2C > becau > e they seem to be so avoidable. > will miss Scott. I'm am sorry he misjudged the situation=2C and let it > g > t out of control (if these facts > re accurate). > Training=2C people=2C training!! Having crashed an ultralight simil > ar to > these circumstances=2C all I can say > s these accidents can be avoided=2C or at least minimized with proper fl > ig > t education. > These are the facts as I've been able to acertain. If anyone knows more > 2C please share it with us. > f I've mistated something=2C please correct the record. > Best regards to all=2C > ike Welch > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________ > ________ > > ime: 05:36:35 PM PST US > ubject: Kolb-List: Re: Here's what I have gathered; > rom: "ces308" > > hank you Mike, > I am sorry for Scott,but it does appear he made a terrible mistake,however > ,It's > ice to here there doesn't appear to have been a fault of the aircraft. > These are fun airplanes to fly,but to an even greater degree because of th > ere > ack > f weight to keep things going,you need to be very aware of your airspeed > n final...where my 172 flies right through a wind gust,my M3X will stop fl > ying > nd you can never forget that. > Thanks again for the information...every one CAN learn from this ,if they > > isten. > chris ambrose > 3X/Jabiru 150.3 hrs 2500. total > 327CS > > ead this topic online here: > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312697#312697 > > _______________________________ Message 10 _____________________________ > _______ > > ime: 05:42:23 PM PST US > ubject: Kolb-List: Re: Here's what I have gathered; > rom: "Ralph B" > > ike, I'm not an accident investigator either, but I do know that many fata > l > ccidents > ccur due to stall-spins on landing. I was once told, "If there is any > ne thing to remember about flying, it's airspeed". This is especially true > upon > anding. It would be better to come in hot and use up runway than to bend > p your airplane or hurt yourself. It's a fine line sometimes to slow it up > or > o off the end of a short runway. I tend to keep more speed than most pilot > s > nd maybe this has saved me a few times. Kolb's, like other light aircraft > have > ore built-in drag than heavy and clean ones. They tend to lose speed more > > uickly. > his means keeping the power on and nose down until it's on the ground. > t's all about speed. Without that, the wings don't lift. > Ralph B > -------- > alph B > riginal Firestar 447 > 91493 E-AB > 000 hours > 3 years flying it > olbra 912UL > 20386 > years flying it > 20 hrs > > ead this topic online here: > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312698#312698 > > _______________________________ Message 11 _____________________________ > _______ > > ime: 07:25:38 PM PST US > rom: "PCKing" > ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered; > Mike, > Thank you. > Brian Carpenter (Rainbow Aviation) just did a webinar titled "GA to LSA: > > ake a Safe Transition" He makes a compelling case for maintaining > irspeed on final because of the low mass and high drag of the fat > ltralight LSAs. He describes them as a cotton ball compared to the GA > olf ball. The highest percentage of LSA accidents occur with GA pilots > t the stick. > The webinar is archived at > http://www.eaavideo.org/channel.aspx?ch=ch_webinars > Peter C. King > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Welch > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 7:48 PM > Subject: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered; > > List members, I have had many members ask me to bring this subject > atter out in the > open. Plus, there are way too many people now, for me to reply to. > approaching 30+) > Here is what I have this far!! > > My initial thought was to discuss Scott's accident openly with this > ist, but then I thought > I'd be criticized by someone for acting like an investigator. Well, > 'm NOT an investigator, > but I certainly am curious about the facts that caused Scott's death, > specially since I do > not want to duplicate them. > Then, I thought maybe the subject would be best discussed privately > etween those only > who show an interest. Last count, I've had about 14 responders, so > aybe we should just > bring this out in the open. > > (I had the same concern regarding John Ratcliffe's accident a few > onths ago. Yet, I didn't > say anything, and John was soon forgotten, it appears. I did some > hecking on his situation, > and it seems he must have stalled near turning base to final, and > osed it in.) > > With regard to Scott, here is what I have found out. This is by NO > eans any kind of official > report, nor do I profess to have all the answers. Additionally, I > ccept any and all new information > that may correct anything that I may misstate. > > A few days before Scott made his intitial flight, I asked him where > e had his main wing's and > his h. stabilizers set at (since the Oshkosh photos made the h.s. look > ike they were too high) > His answer to me was " the main wing is set at where Bryan (@ Kolb > ircraft) told him to set them." > He went on to say "the h. stabilizers are set like the factory > ecommends, but after he's flown > for awhile, he can adjust that setting later. (I wish!!) > So, at this point, as far as I know, he had the wing incidences and > or. stabilizers incidences set > according to the factory recommended locations! > > Next, when I read one of the news reports from one of the local > ews sources, I saw where they > said "according to the initial investigators, there didn't 'appear' to > e anything wrong with the > airplane. That would seem to make sense, knowing what a perfectionist > cott was. > > The weather was basically calm, although at 8:00pm, when the > ccident happened, twilight was > setting. Light, however, is NOT likely to be a factor. > > From discussing this situation with 'others', I have been told Scott > ad some introductory flights > in a MkIII. Most likely, Scott would not have flown solo during this > ntroductory flight. > In one of the news articles, it mentioned Scott got his Sport Pilot > icense last year. This would > indicate he probably didn't have a lot of flying time, especially when > ou consider he was spending > a lot of time trying to finish building his plane! Scott was, you > ould say, 'a low-time' pilot. > > So, up to this point, the plane itself, the weather, the lighting, > nd the wing's incidences, don't appear > to have caused the accident. > > What's left?? According to Carol; Scott took off and flew around a > ouple of times, and when he came > in to land, it just nose-dived in. It landed initially on the > acement, but continued to tumble onto the > grass. > What does this tell us? If Carol is complete in her description, > nd all Scott did was "fly around a > couple of times" , and then try to land, this tells us he did NOT > limb to altitude and explore the plane's > flying parameters. It primarily tells us he did not find out the > lane's EXACT stall speed, and now we'll > never know! > > With the fact that Scott was; > A) a low-time pilot, and > B) flying a plane that he may not have known the stall speed of > C) the mishap occurred at the runway threshold, coming in for his 1st > anding > > I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final, where it > ose-dived into the runway, and rolled. > > If these events are indeed accurate and correct, I am very sad, > ecause they seem to be so avoidable. > I will miss Scott. I'm am sorry he misjudged the situation, and let > t get out of control (if these facts > are accurate). > > Training, people, training!! Having crashed an ultralight similar > o these circumstances, all I can say > is these accidents can be avoided, or at least minimized with proper > light education. > > These are the facts as I've been able to acertain. If anyone knows > ore, please share it with us. > If I've mistated something, please correct the record. > > Best regards to all, > Mike Welch > > > _______________________________ Message 12 _____________________________ > _______ > > ime: 07:47:04 PM PST US > rom: "John Hauck" > ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident > Mike W: > Have you discussed your findings with the NTSB? > Maybe your information would help in their investigation and their > etermination of the cause of the accident. > john h > kIII > ock House, OR > I have tried to find out exactly what happened to cause Scott's > atal crash. > Why? Because it matters a HELL of a lot to me!! At first, I thought > 'd share what > I've found with the entire list, then, I thought someone may gripe > bout it. > > So, if anyone wants to know some of the details about what happened, > ncluding > what Scott and I discussed a few days prior to his maiden flight, > mail me off > the Kolb list, and I will share with you what I have found out. > > Mike Welch > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________ > ________ > > ime: 07:56:23 PM PST US > rom: Mike Welch > ubject: RE: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered; > > eter=2C > Certainly there is no disputing that some GA pilots do seem to have trou > b > e > ransitioning from the factory iron to the lighter=2C less mass SLA or li > gh > planes. > However=2C in Scott's case=2C I'm afraid that "transitioning" wasn't > the > ssue=2C because > ince he only got his Sport Pilot license last year=2C he couldn't have > had > very many > ours in GA airplanes. At least=2C that's what I'm led to believe. > Additionally=2C Carol described him as 'coming in for a landing' and th > en > he sort of > nose-dived". This scenario is much more indicative of an approach-to-land > ng- > tall=2C rather than the typical GA to LSA failure to handle the mass dif > fe > ences > etween the two (at touchdown). > Airspeed is one thing you cannot ignor when flying an airplane=2C lest > th > ground > ise up and smite thee!!! > Mike Welch > > ike=2C > Thank you. > Brian Carpenter (Rainbow Aviation) just did a webinar titled "GA to LSA: > Ma > e a Safe Transition" He makes a compelling case for maintaining airspeed > o > final because of the low mass and high drag of the fat ultralight LSAs. > H > describes them as a cotton ball compared to the GA golf ball. The highest > percentage of LSA accidents occur with GA pilots at the stick. > The webinar is archived at > http://www.eaavideo.org/channel.aspx?ch=ch_webinars > Peter C. King > > ---- Original Message ----- > rom: Mike Welch > ent: Thursday=2C September 16=2C 2010 7:48 PM > ubject: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered=3B > List members=2C I have had many members ask me to bring this subject ma > tte > out in the > pen. Plus=2C there are way too many people now=2C for me to reply to. > (a > proaching 30+) > ere is what I have this far!! > My initial thought was to discuss Scott's accident openly with this list > 2C but then I thought > 'd be criticized by someone for acting like an investigator. Well=2C I' > m > OT an investigator=2C > ut I certainly am curious about the facts that caused Scott's death=2C > esp > cially since I do > ot want to duplicate them. > Then=2C I thought maybe the subject would be best discussed privately > bet > een those only > ho show an interest. Last count=2C I've had about 14 responders=2C so > may > e we should just > ring this out in the open. > (I had the same concern regarding John Ratcliffe's accident a few months > > go. Yet=2C I didn't > ay anything=2C and John was soon forgotten=2C it appears. I did some > chec > ing on his situation=2C > nd it seems he must have stalled near turning base to final=2C and nosed > i > in.) > With regard to Scott=2C here is what I have found out. This is by NO > me > ns any kind of official > eport=2C nor do I profess to have all the answers. Additionally=2C I > acce > t any and all new information > hat may correct anything that I may misstate. > A few days before Scott made his intitial flight=2C I asked him where > he > ad his main wing's and > is h. stabilizers set at (since the Oshkosh photos made the h.s. look like > they were too high) > is answer to me was " the main wing is set at where Bryan (@ Kolb Aircraft > told him to set them." > e went on to say "the h. stabilizers are set like the factory recommends > 2C but after he's flown > or awhile=2C he can adjust that setting later. (I wish!!) > So=2C at this point=2C as far as I know=2C he had the wing incidenc > es and > hor. stabilizers incidences set > ccording to the factory recommended locations! > Next=2C when I read one of the news reports from one of the local new > s s > urces=2C I saw where they > aid "according to the initial investigators=2C there didn't 'appear' to > be > anything wrong with the > irplane. That would seem to make sense=2C knowing what a perfectionist > Sc > tt was. > The weather was basically calm=2C although at 8:00pm=2C when the acc > ident > happened=2C twilight was > etting. Light=2C however=2C is NOT likely to be a factor. > From discussing this situation with 'others'=2C I have been told Scott > ha > some introductory flights > n a MkIII. Most likely=2C Scott would not have flown solo during this > int > oductory flight. > In one of the news articles=2C it mentioned Scott got his Sport Pilot > li > ense last year. This would > ndicate he probably didn't have a lot of flying time=2C especially when > yo > consider he was spending > lot of time trying to finish building his plane! Scott was=2C you coul > d > ay=2C 'a low-time' pilot. > So=2C up to this point=2C the plane itself=2C the weather=2C the > lighting > 2C and the wing's incidences=2C don't appear > o have caused the accident. > What's left?? According to Carol=3B Scott took off and flew around a > cou > le of times=2C and when he came > n to land=2C it just nose-dived in. It landed initially on the pacemen > t > 2C but continued to tumble onto the > rass. > What does this tell us? If Carol is complete in her description=2C and > a > l Scott did was "fly around a > ouple of times" =2C and then try to land=2C this tells us he did NOT > climb > to altitude and explore the plane's > lying parameters. It primarily tells us he did not find out the plane's > E > ACT stall speed=2C and now we'll > ever know! > With the fact that Scott was=3B > ) a low-time pilot=2C and > ) flying a plane that he may not have known the stall speed of > ) the mishap occurred at the runway threshold=2C coming in for his 1st > lan > ing > I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final=2C where it nose > -di > ed into the runway=2C and rolled. > If these events are indeed accurate and correct=2C I am very sad=2C > becau > e they seem to be so avoidable. > will miss Scott. I'm am sorry he misjudged the situation=2C and let it > g > t out of control (if these facts > re accurate). > Training=2C people=2C training!! Having crashed an ultralight simil > ar to > these circumstances=2C all I can say > s these accidents can be avoided=2C or at least minimized with proper fl > ig > t education. > These are the facts as I've been able to acertain. If anyone knows more > 2C please share it with us. > f I've mistated something=2C please correct the record. > Best regards to all=2C > ike Welch > > ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics. > om/Navigator?Kolb-List > ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > ref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________ > ________ > > ime: 08:03:33 PM PST US > ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident > rom: Daniel Myers > Class move John I like it > aniel > Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 16=2C 2010=2C at 3:23 PM=2C "John Hauck" m> wrot > : > > Mike W: > > Have you discussed your findings with the NTSB? > > Maybe your information would help in their investigation and their determ > nation of the cause of the accident. > > john h > mkIII > Rock House=2C OR > I have tried to find out exactly what happened to cause Scott's fatal > > rash. > Why? Because it matters a HELL of a lot to me!! At first=2C I thought > I > d share what > I've found with the entire list=2C then=2C I thought someone may grip > e ab > ut it. > > So=2C if anyone wants to know some of the details about what happened > 2C including > what Scott and I discussed a few days prior to his maiden flight=2C ema > il > me off > the Kolb list=2C and I will share with you what I have found out. > > Mike Welch > > > ======== > ======== > ======== > ======== > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________ > ________ > > ime: 08:09:48 PM PST US > rom: Mike Welch > ubject: RE: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident > > Mike W: > >Have you discussed your findings with the NTSB? > >Maybe your information would help in their investigation and their determ > i > ation of >the cause of the accident. > >john h > mkIII > John H=2C > No=2C I haven't=2C but I will be calling them tomorrow. But the fac > t is > 2C I shared > hat little information I dug up=2C and packaged into one concise email. > T > e > nformation I gathered was either reading it in news articles relating to > t > e > rash (in otherwords...public information)=2C my emails with Scott=2C > just > rior > o his flight=2C and telephone conversations with a couple of Kolb list > mem > ers. > I'm simply trying to save lives. Do you have a problem with my discuss > i > n? > m I supposed to contact that NTSB to show a concern for Kolb pilots? > Mike Welch > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________ > ________ > > ime: 09:27:32 PM PST US > ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered; > rom: Richard Girard > Whoa! Let's get something straight. Gusts and wind affect glide path and > round speed, not airspeed. The danger is inexperienced pilots who get > ixated on a point and pull back on the stick in an effort to maintain glid > e > oward that point. The only thing that counts is airspeed, period. > s I told Mike when we talked on Sunday, I have a mantra that goes on in my > ead, and sometimes out loud, from the moment I pull power back from cruise > o set up an approach. It's just two words, Hold 50. If you watched the > ideo I made about the sight picture as it changes for flap settings, you > an hear me over the sound of the 582 saying, "turning final, HOLD 50". It' > s > y choice of approach airspeed for my Mk III based upon the stall speeds I > ocumented. It makes absolutely no difference if I hold some power in > eserve or close the throttle completely, it's HOLD 50 and it stays HOLD 50 > ntil I pull back on the stick to round out and let her settle to the > round. If I'm a little too high on approach, which I actually prefer, I ca > n > lip Zulu Delta to lose altitude a little faster, and I still HOLD 50. > Rick Girard > On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 9:18 PM, PCKing wrote: > > Mike, > > Thank you. > > Brian Carpenter (Rainbow Aviation) just did a webinar titled "GA to LSA: > Make a Safe Transition" He makes a compelling case for maintaining airspe > ed > on final because of the low mass and high drag of the fat ultralight LSAs > .. > He describes them as a cotton ball compared to the GA golf ball. The high > est > percentage of LSA accidents occur with GA pilots at the stick. > > The webinar is archived at > > http://www.eaavideo.org/channel.aspx?ch=ch_webinars > > Peter C. King > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Mike Welch > *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Thursday, September 16, 2010 7:48 PM > *Subject:* Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered; > > List members, I have had many members ask me to bring this subject matte > r > out in the > open. Plus, there are way too many people now, for me to reply to. > (approaching 30+) > Here is what I have this far!! > > My initial thought was to discuss Scott's accident openly with this > list, but then I thought > I'd be criticized by someone for acting like an investigator. Well, I'm > NOT an investigator, > but I certainly am curious about the facts that caused Scott's death, > especially since I do > not want to duplicate them. > Then, I thought maybe the subject would be best discussed privately > between those only > who show an interest. Last count, I've had about 14 responders, so maybe > we should just > bring this out in the open. > > (I had the same concern regarding John Ratcliffe's accident a few month > s > ago. Yet, I didn't > say anything, and John was soon forgotten, it appears. I did some checki > ng > on his situation, > and it seems he must have stalled near turning base to final, and nosed > it > in.) > > With regard to Scott, here is what I have found out. This is by NO > means any kind of official > report, nor do I profess to have all the answers. Additionally, I accept > any and all new information > that may correct anything that I may misstate. > > A few days before Scott made his intitial flight, I asked him where he > had his main wing's and > his h. stabilizers set at (since the Oshkosh photos made the h.s. look li > ke > they were too high) > His answer to me was " the main wing is set at where Bryan (@ Kolb > Aircraft) told him to set them." > He went on to say "the h. stabilizers are set like the factory recommends > , > but after he's flown > for awhile, he can adjust that setting later. (I wish!!) > So, at this point, as far as I know, he had the wing incidences and hor > .. > stabilizers incidences set > according to the factory recommended locations! > > Next, when I read one of the news reports from one of the local news > sources, I saw where they > said "according to the initial investigators, there didn't 'appear' to be > anything wrong with the > airplane. That would seem to make sense, knowing what a perfectionist > Scott was. > > The weather was basically calm, although at 8:00pm, when the accident > happened, twilight was > setting. Light, however, is NOT likely to be a factor. > > From discussing this situation with 'others', I have been told Scott ha > d > some introductory flights > in a MkIII. Most likely, Scott would not have flown solo during this > introductory flight. > In one of the news articles, it mentioned Scott got his Sport Pilot > license last year. This would > indicate he probably didn't have a lot of flying time, especially when yo > u > consider he was spending > a lot of time trying to finish building his plane! Scott was, you could > say, 'a low-time' pilot. > > So, up to this point, the plane itself, the weather, the lighting, and > the wing's incidences, don't appear > to have caused the accident. > > What's left?? According to Carol; Scott took off and flew around a > couple of times, and when he came > in to land, it just nose-dived in. It landed initially on the pacement, > but continued to tumble onto the > grass. > What does this tell us? If Carol is complete in her description, and > all > Scott did was "fly around a > couple of times" , and then try to land, this tells us he did NOT climb > to > altitude and explore the plane's > flying parameters. It primarily tells us he did not find out the plane's > EXACT stall speed, and now we'll > never know! > > With the fact that Scott was; > A) a low-time pilot, and > B) flying a plane that he may not have known the stall speed of > C) the mishap occurred at the runway threshold, coming in for his 1st > landing > > I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final, where it > nose-dived into the runway, and rolled. > > If these events are indeed accurate and correct, I am very sad, because > they seem to be so avoidable. > I will miss Scott. I'm am sorry he misjudged the situation, and let it > get > out of control (if these facts > are accurate). > > Training, people, training!! Having crashed an ultralight similar to > these circumstances, all I can say > is these accidents can be avoided, or at least minimized with proper flig > ht > education. > > These are the facts as I've been able to acertain. If anyone knows mor > e, > please share it with us. > If I've mistated something, please correct the record. > > Best regards to all, > Mike Welch > > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronic > s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c > * > > * > > * > > > - > ulu Delta > olb Mk IIIC > 82 Gray head > .00 C gearbox > blade WD > hanks, Homer GBYM > It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unab > le > o imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong. > - G.K. Chesterton > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________ > ________ > > ime: 09:39:45 PM PST US > ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident > rom: Daniel Myers > Mike=2C my uncle died in my kolb and no one knows what happened except > for > im. Kolbs Are great planes but are very unforgiving. I continue to fly Kol > s only because I know not to get close to that stall speed. I have only ow > ed two Kolbs but I know the limits..this guy was on his first flight=2C > it > s a terrible situation because he didn't know the kolb and it's limits. > aniel > Sent from my iPhoned > On Sep 16=2C 2010=2C at 11:06 PM=2C Mike Welch com> wr > te: > > >Mike W: > > >Have you discussed your findings with the NTSB? > > >Maybe your information would help in their investigation and their deter > ination of >the cause of the accident. > > >john h > >mkIII > > John H=2C > > No=2C I haven't=2C but I will be calling them tomorrow. But the fa > ct i > =2C I shared > what little information I dug up=2C and packaged into one concise email > . > The > information I gathered was either reading it in news articles relating to > the > crash (in otherwords...public information)=2C my emails with Scott=2C > jus > prior > to his flight=2C and telephone conversations with a couple of Kolb list > m > mbers. > > I'm simply trying to save lives. Do you have a problem with my discus > ion? > Am I supposed to contact that NTSB to show a concern for Kolb pilots? > > Mike Welch > > > ======== > ======== > ======== > ======== > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________ > ________ > > ime: 10:01:06 PM PST US > rom: Mike Welch > ubject: RE: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident > > ike=2C my uncle died in my kolb and no one knows what happened except fo > r > im. Kolbs Are great planes but are very unforgiving. I continue to fly Kol > s only because I know not to get close to that stall speed. I have only ow > ed two Kolbs but I know the limits..this guy was on his first flight=2C > it > s a terrible situation because he didn't know the kolb and it's limits. > aniel > Daniel=2C > You are exactly right (with your last statement). I am afraid it is pos > s > ble it is as simple as > e may have simply misjudged what he was doing. Of course=2C we will nev > er > know the whole truth now. > It is only my intention to help educate those of us who fly=2C or are > yet > to fly=2C their Kolb aircraft. > rashing and dieing does little good to both the families left behind and > t > e reputation of the aircraft. I > ould like to reduce the damage by analyzing what we know=2C and learn fr > om > our errors. Believe it or > ot=2C there may be people who have a problem with that. > Mike Welch > y condolences regarding your uncle=2C Daniel. > > > -======================= > ======================= > ========== > -= - The Kolb-List Email Forum - > -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse > -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, > -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > -= Photoshare, and much much more: > - > -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > - > -======================= > ======================= > ========== > -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! > - > -= --> http://forums.matronics.com > - > -======================= > ======================= > ========== > -= - List Contribution Web Site - > -= Thank you for your generous support! > -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution > -======================= > ======================= > ========== > > > ________________________________ Message 4 > _____________________________________ > > > Time: 07:02:30 AM PST US > Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Upgrading from current 4.00-6 "Garden" tires. > From: "gotime242" > > > Thanks, i just wanted to be sure it was ok/safe to go wider than > recommended > or > than the width of the rim since there is only 4.00's on there now. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312833#312833 > > > ________________________________ Message 5 > _____________________________________ > > > Time: 07:05:19 AM PST US > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: kolb stall > From: Richard Neilsen > > Hey All > > There has been a lot of good discussion since Scott's tragic accident. My > concern is that it leaves the impression that there is a problem or bad > flight characteristic with our airplanes which there is not. > > I'm not a major high time pilot but I have had the opportunity to fly quite > a few different airplanes and none are as good as our Kolbs. Our planes > have > tremendous short field capabilities that when fully utilized (flaps and no > power landings) does require a high level of precision. Pilots new to the > Kolb flight characteristics will have problems with these flight > characteristics no matter how skilled they are in other aircraft. Land with > power and stay away from the flaps till you get very good at it. Then very > gradually land with less power OR using more flaps. Don't progress too > quickly. I have a set of fully retracted Kolb landing gear legs that I bent > when I progressed to full flaps and no power way too quickly. > Flight instructors not used to our Kolbs don't train us how to handle our > Kolbs properly/safely. I recently got my check ride with a GA instructor in > my Kolb. I was praised for how well I flew the plane in everything but how > I > flew very short final. He felt I rounded out way too low and with too much > airspeed. I think this is a very common mistake that most non > Kolb instructors will make. Let me also explain I did fly a bit faster > approach rounded out lower because my instructor was a good 100 lbs heaver > than anyone I had ever flown in my plane and I was using a very long 2500 > ft > grass strip. Yes we were a bit over gross weight. > > Rick Neilsen > 1st Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC > > ________________________________ Message 6 > _____________________________________ > > > Time: 07:16:39 AM PST US > From: Dana Hague > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: kolb stall > > > -------------------------------------------------- > "John Hauck" wrote: > (09/17/2010 16:35) > > > I know nothing of the results of the investigations, but a Kolb in a nose > > high attitude that runs out of airspeed will drop the nose and normally a > > wing.... > > Especially if it's a new airplane that might not be properly trimmed > out yet. > > -Dana > > > ________________________________ Message 7 > _____________________________________ > > > Time: 03:41:04 PM PST US > From: Mike Welch > Subject: Kolb-List: airspeed indicator calibration > > > Kolb guys=2C > > I am in the process of installing all the instruments in my MkIII. One o > f the > instruments is an analog airspeed indicator. It's a standard=2C typical ty > pe of indicator that uses > ram air to determine it's reading=2C by way of a pitot tube. > > Out of the box=2C I can't imagine it can be very accurate=2C can it? I m > ean=2C everybody will have > their own unique design in installing one of these=2C so I would think that > each installation would > be off a little from someone else's installation. Or=2C are they much more > uniform in their > readings? > > I have the exact placement in my panel and the routing of the tubing pret > ty much figured out. > > For those guys that have installed an airspeed indicator=2C did you calib > rate it in any way first=2C > or did you just stick it in the plane and live with whatever reading it say > s once you start > flying the plane? > > I thought what I would do is essentially build the whole system=2C and ge > t someone to drive > a car down the road=2C with me hanging the A/S indicator's pitot tube out t > he window. While this > may seem somewhat silly=2C at least I could an idea how accurate it might b > e. At least it's a start=2C > right? Has anybody done this?? Or is it a waste of time? > > For an instrument that has so much riding on it=2C and if new=2C hasn't r > eally proven itself for > accuracy=2C it seems to me a guy ought to verify in some way it comes "clos > e" to the correct > airspeed. > > Any thoughts or experiences would be greatly appreciated. Thanks > > Mike Welch > MkIII > > > ________________________________ Message 8 > _____________________________________ > > > Time: 05:02:46 PM PST US > From: Dana Hague > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: airspeed indicator calibration > > > The instrument itself should be quite accurate, but pressure > variations at the pitot and static sources can throw it way off. The > pressure field around a moving car will make any such calibration > meaningless, too. Put it in the plane. You can use your GPS to > calibrate it on a dead calm day, or average readings into and with a > steady wind. > > -Dana > > -------------------------------------------------- > Mike Welch wrote: > (09/18/2010 18:35) > > > > > Kolb guys, > > > > I am in the process of installing all the instruments in my MkIII. One > of > the > > instruments is an analog airspeed indicator. It's a standard, typical > type of > indicator that uses > > ram air to determine it's reading, by way of a pitot tube. > > > > Out of the box, I can't imagine it can be very accurate, can it? I > mean, everybody > will have > > their own unique design in installing one of these, so I would think that > each > installation would > > be off a little from someone else's installation. Or, are they much more > uniform > in their > > readings? > > > > I have the exact placement in my panel and the routing of the tubing > pretty > much figured out. > > > > For those guys that have installed an airspeed indicator, did you > calibrate > it in any way first, > > or did you just stick it in the plane and live with whatever reading it > says > once you start > > flying the plane? > > > > I thought what I would do is essentially build the whole system, and > get > someone > to drive > > a car down the road, with me hanging the A/S indicator's pitot tube out > the window. > While this > > may seem somewhat silly, at least I could an idea how accurate it might > be. > At least it's a start, > > right? Has anybody done this?? Or is it a waste of time? > > > > For an instrument that has so much riding on it, and if new, hasn't > really > proven itself for > > accuracy, it seems to me a guy ought to verify in some way it comes > "close" to > the correct > > airspeed. > > > > Any thoughts or experiences would be greatly appreciated. Thanks > > > > Mike Welch > > MkIII > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 > _____________________________________ > > > Time: 07:28:51 PM PST US > Subject: Kolb-List: Re: airspeed indicator calibration > From: "Richard Pike" > > > IMO, it is almost impossible to calibrate an airspeed indicator unless it > is > in > the airplane, because of the variables involved in each installation. When > we > first flew the FSII, we had screwy airspeed readings, and it turned out we > had > two problems: one was with the indicator, the other was the pitot location. > Fixed the location of the pitot, but the numbers were till odd, so tried an > experiment. > > > Strapped a piece of 1 1/2" aluminum tubing onto the roof rack of the Jeep > so > that > the forward end was ahead of and well above the hood (no bow wave allowed) > and ran a piece of vinyl tubing to the airspeed indicator. Wrote down the > numbers > at various speeds, then swapped out the airspeed indicator with another > that > was known to be good, did it again, and there was quite a disparity. > > But all that did was prove that the original airspeed indicator was bad. > Bought > a new one and put it in the airplane and flew it, and compared it to the > GPS. > It was good enough that we left it alone. > > Wonder if we hurt it in the wreck? Guess we'll find out in a couple months. > > Richard Pike > MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312875#312875 > > > ________________________________ Message 10 > ____________________________________ > > > Time: 09:27:46 PM PST US > Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Here's what I have gathered; > From: "R. Hankins" > > > "The kolb stall is very unforgiving-trust me... " > > h20maule, Your statement is incorrect. It should read: "The stall of my > kolb > is very unforgiving-trust me... ". > > I have never flown your kolb, but I have flown 2 MarkIIIs, 4 firestars and > a > Kolbra > and none of them had unforgiving stall characteristics. The worst one was > mine when I had the VGs mounted too far back. This was the only kolb I > have > flown that had a sharp stall break, but recovery was still quick, > straightforward > and uneventful. Moving the VGs forward gave me back my gentle airplane. > > Unforgiving is a pretty subjective term. Can you describe what it is > about > stalls > in your kolb that makes them less than desirable? Maybe there is something > unique about your plane that can be changed to improve its handling? > > -------- > Roger in Oregon > 1992 KXP 503 - N1782C > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312882#312882 > > -- Zulu Delta Kolb Mk IIIC 582 Gray head 4.00 C gearbox 3 blade WD Thanks, Homer GBYM It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong. - G.K. Chesterton ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:13:58 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: airspeed indicator calibration From: "Thom Riddle" Another way to test the ASI itself is with a manometer which you can build easily enough but Richard Pike's method was probably more fun. On my Slingshot, the most accurate airspeed indication was achieved by having two static sources. One is the standard opening in the aft end of the static tube portion of the combo pitot/static tube. The static tube going from there to the back of the ASI also has an open Tee fitting in it to read the ambient pressure in the nose cone. The average of these two soruces give results that are equal to TAS at a density altitude of 1500', which is quite close enoughin my book. On the Allegro 2000 SLSA I once part owned, I was able to adjust the indication by altering the static pressure perceived by the instrument. In this case there were two static ports, one on each side of the fuselage. From the factory it indicated as much as 13% faster than it should have, which meant that the static pressure was lower than it should have been. Since the static ports were flush with the fuselage, I put a spot of RTV just aft of the static ports creating a slightly higher pressure area at the ports. After a few trial and error modifications of the size of the RTV bump, I got the IAS to read within 2% throughout the normal speed range. Getting an accurate airspeed indication is sometimes a bit of an art but mostly just trial and error, one of the joys of experimenting. -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY (9G0) Kolb Slingshot SS-021 Jabiru 2200A #1574 Tennessee Prop 64x32 Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts. Daniel Patrick Moynihan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312899#312899 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:48 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: airspeed indicator calibration From: robert bean > On your first ride in your new bird keep one eye on the ASI during takeoff. The speed you see just at the point you can coax it off the ground will suffice for an initial stall speed. The actual numbers are not as important as stability and repeatability. My pitot will sometimes get a bug in it even though I plug it. You can tell because the needle will stutter a bit and then suddenly start indicating again. I figure mine is off some but that is WAY down on my list of things to do. It's like your age, knowing it won't change it. BB > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:51:47 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: airspeed indicator calibration From: "olendorf" Thom Riddle wrote: > .., the most accurate airspeed indication was achieved by having two static sources. One is the standard opening in the aft end of the static tube portion of the combo pitot/static tube. The static tube going from there to the back of the ASI also has an open Tee fitting in it to read the ambient pressure in the nose cone. The average of these two soruces give results that are equal to TAS at a density altitude of 1500', which is quite close enoughin my book. That is exactly what I did also. It happened to be very accurate. When I take my doors off though it reads about 10mph too low. -------- Scott Olendorf Original Firestar, Rotax 447, Powerfin prop Schenectady, NY http://sites.google.com/site/kolbfirestar/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312914#312914 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:05:48 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Kolb-List: Simple Info > I have decided to unsubscribe to the Matronics lists, there is nearly no > traffic and no content to red. > > Chris Norman, CEO > www.digitalrealitycorp.com > > owner www.goflying.co Well, Chris Norman, CEO, are you a Kolb builder and flyer? I know a good "proof reeding" web page you might enjoy. ;-) BTW: Gary Haley and Henry Curd departed the Rock House this morning for Houston. Gary is a MKIII owner. Ken Korenik, former FS owner and flyer, departed next for DFW area. Mike and Jan Marker, FS owner and flyer, departed last for Blanding, UT, and Los Lunas, NM. Boyd Young departed for Brigham City, UT, last Friday, in his MKIII. Roger Hankins will arrive the Rock House today. Roger flies a Kolb KXP. Roger's KXP does not have an unforgiving stall. Neither does my MKIII. john h - CEO of hauck's holler, alabama mkIII Rock House, OR ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:13:05 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: airspeed indicator calibration > It's like your age, knowing it won't change it. > BB Bob B/Gang: I like my ASI reading high. Watching that needle indicating 90 when it is flying 60 is exhilarating. I don't think anyone has mentioned during this ASI thread that is the ASI is serviceable, but not calibrated to the aircraft, no matter what the indicated airspeed is at stall, it will always stall at that indicated airspeed under the same conditions. I once asked Steve Whitman at Sun and Fun 1993, how he calibrated his ASI, what static airpressure source he used. His replay was, "Right out the back of the instrument." Said he was not concerned with his true airspeed and the stall speed was always the same. He did share with me that the cut the pitot tube at a 45 deg angle. Thought that would give him a better indication at high angles of attack and slow airspeeds. john h mkIII Rock House, OR ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:28:30 AM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: kolb stall Kolbers, A couple of comments. VG's will move the center of lift a little to the rear. Also different planes of the same model will stall differently due to differences in cg. Moving them to the rear will give a more gentle break and/or mush. Move them forward, and the stall will be more pronounced. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:34:42 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Any KOLBs in South Florida? From: "gotime242" Hello all, Just wanted to revive this thread from the dead. Anyone still flying around S FL? I fly a FS 2 out of lantana airport and live in west palm beach. It would be cool to meet up with some other kolb flyers. Ill be flying mine for a couple more months and then probably selling it. Its very airworthy, just not very pretty which is what i intend to change. Anyway...let me know! -Dylan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312922#312922 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:45:33 AM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: airspeed indicator calibration > no matter what the indicated airspeed is at stall=2C it will always stall at that indicated > airspeed under the same conditions. > john h > mkIII > Rock House=2C OR John=2C guys=2C You're right=2C John=2C and this IS an important point. When the A/S ind icator is on it's very first test flight=2C one would likely want to establish it's exact rea ding while testing an aircraft's stall speed. We want the "indicated aispeed" (IAS)=2C regard less of whether or not the A/S indicator is accurate for all flight speeds. If it read 35=2C or 62=2C or whatever...(at stall)=2C that's going to be that magic number to stay well above when shooting the f irst landing. Yes? Having never "test" flown anything=2C I would think the very first thing a guy would do is take the airplane to a safe altitude (2500'+ agl) and cafefully find the st all=2C or possibly the beginning of the stall=2C and note what his A/S indicator is reading. The FAA reg that Rick G. shared with us seemed to be very good advice. At least to me=2C I would think bef ore a guy tried to land his newly completed plane=2C he would want to know the indicated airspeed ( IAS)=2C and do his darndest to stay above it. I have heard from some that 1.5 X IAS (at stall ) would be a good choice in the early stages of flight testing. Mike Welch ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:45:34 AM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Airspeed indicator calibration - Just an opinion from an observer with no experience.- It doesn't matt er if the indicator is exact, as long as it's consistant.- You will still have to determine take-off speed, stall speed, and safe landing speed base d on the readings that the instrument is giving.- The indicator should be reliable, consistant, and reasonably quick to respond.- If it gives the same readings every time, it only applies to your plane, anyway.- Other t han for navigation purposes, and comparison purposes, I don't think it matt ers.- Somebody correct me on this.- And, there is always a Hall meter i f you want to check.- $20, I think. - ------------------------- ------------------- Bill Sullivan ------------------------- ------------------- Windsor Locks, Ct .. ------------------------- ------------------- FS 447 - ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:11:43 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: airspeed indicator calibration Mike W/Gang: Yes, about as basic as you can get to keep on flying. I said earlier, I periodically stall my mkIII, in different configurations, to keep me informed of the current stall speed. Homer Kolb recommended in the 1984 Ultrastar Builders Guide to climb to 1,000 feet AGL on the first flight and check stall speed. Stalling a Kolb is about as simple a maneuver as one can perform in an airplane. Bring the power back to idle, bleed off airspeed until it stalls. Probably all you will get is a little burble as it reaches mush/stall speed and continue flying, either with a nug of the forward stick, or nothing at all. About the only way I can get my Kolbs to do a classic drop the nose and fall out of the sky type stall is chop power, pull the nose up as high as I can until the airspeed bleeds off to about zero and the Kolb falls out of the sky. Even then, a little forward stick and she will fly immediately. I believe one of the problems with inadvertently stalling a Kolb close to the ground is the conditioned reflex to pull the stick back to make it fly, because pushing the nose down close to the ground is unnatural. Enjoying some cooler weather and overcast sky for the first time at the Rock House. john h mkIII At least to me, I would think before a guy tried to land his newly completed plane, he would want to know the indicated airspeed (IAS), and do his darndest to stay above it. I have heard from some that 1.5 X IAS (at stall) would be a good choice in the early stages of flight testing. Mike Welch ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:40:20 AM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: airspeed indicator calibration > > There are two methods of take off: the zoomie-zoomie type that RVs use on paved runways and the coax it off that old taildraggers use on grass. The zoomie guys like a (10%?) margin before they rotate like the big commercial tin cans. Due to circumstances the minimum/at stall method is more appropriate for grass strips, especially if you have limited horsepower. Not so fancy strips may be a little bumpy which is to your advantage. That last bump will launch you into the barely flying zone. Now you can pick up a little speed in ground effect before resuming a climb. This is especially important when flying out of deep or wet snow. -otherwise you may remain ground bound. Also a great technique for escaping from that plowed field that you had to plop into when the noise maker stopped. I hate those big rocks. It's really quite harmless to stagger the bird off the ground. Remember the earth is still only a few inches away. Can't get hurt. BB > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:51:31 AM PST US From: chris davis Subject: Re: Kolb-List: RE: Kolb-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 09/18/10 No Traffic , I have 27050 emails from the matronics lists I am on Thats The TRAFFIC I have for the last 12 months, enough for me but maybe your requirements are higher? Chris Davis KXP 503 492 hrs Glider Pilot Disabled from crash building Firefly ----- Original Message ---- From: Go Flying Sent: Sun, September 19, 2010 3:52:28 AM Subject: Kolb-List: RE: Kolb-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 09/18/10 I have decided to unsubscribe to the Matronics lists, there is nearly no traffic and no content to red. Chris Norman, CEO www.digitalrealitycorp.com owner www.goflying.co -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kolb-List Digest Server Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 1:58 AM Subject: Kolb-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 09/18/10 * ================================================= Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive ================================================= Today's complete Kolb-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the Kolb-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 10-09-18&Archive=Kolb Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 2010-09-18&Archive=Kolb =============================================== EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive =============================================== ---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 09/18/10: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:12 AM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Fran Losey) 2. 03:36 AM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (william sullivan) 3. 05:34 AM - Re: Kolb-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 09/16/10 (icrashrc@aol.com) 4. 07:02 AM - Re: Upgrading from current 4.00-6 "Garden" tires. (gotime242) 5. 07:05 AM - Re: Re: kolb stall (Richard Neilsen) 6. 07:16 AM - Re: Re: kolb stall (Dana Hague) 7. 03:41 PM - airspeed indicator calibration (Mike Welch) 8. 05:02 PM - Re: airspeed indicator calibration (Dana Hague) 9. 07:28 PM - Re: airspeed indicator calibration (Richard Pike) 10. 09:27 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (R. Hankins) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:12:52 AM PST US From: Fran Losey Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident On 9/17/2010 12:57 AM, Mike Welch wrote: > Mike, my uncle died in my kolb and no one knows what happened except > for him. Kolbs Are great planes but are very unforgiving. I continue > to fly Kolbs only because I know not to get close to that stall speed. > I have only owned two Kolbs but I know the limits..this guy was on his > first flight, it's a terrible situation because he didn't know the > kolb and it's limits. > Daniel > > Daniel, > You are exactly right (with your last statement). I am afraid it is > possible it is as simple as > he may have simply misjudged what he was doing. Of course, we will > never know the whole truth now. > It is only my intention to help educate those of us who fly, or are > yet to fly, their Kolb aircraft. > Crashing and dieing does little good to both the families left behind > and the reputation of the aircraft. I > would like to reduce the damage by analyzing what we know, and learn > from our errors. Believe it or > not, there may be people who have a problem with that. > Mike Welch > My condolences regarding your uncle, Daniel. > * > > > * Mike and all, Although some bantering seems to occur when sensitive discussions are placed in the forum, I truly appreciate all feedback from all parties, as I feel it refreshes my awareness as a pilot, and allows me to step back for a minute, think about points that are stated, and reflect how I would have handled (or not) such a situation. When this forum stops these healthy (and surely painful) discussions, I will most likely leave it... I am in the middle of building right now, and although I did not know Scott personally, can say I appreciated his contributions on this forum, and felt in my gut he was a person that would give you the shirt off his back, asking nothing in return. Thanks for sharing, and listening. RIP Scott. -- Sincerely, Fran Losey www.mykitlog.com\loseyf ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:36:30 AM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Scott Thompson's accident - I think the current thread on the accident is good for the List.- Con jecture will bring awareness of the peculiarities of the handling of low dr ag, high lift, low weight aircraft.- The NTSB will eventually give the pa rticulars.- Both will be good for all.- I hope someone will maintain Sc ott's web site, as it is an excellent reference.- We all are going to mis s him. - ------------------------- ------------------------- Bill Sullivan ------------------------- ------------------------- -Windsor Locks, Ct. ------------------------- ------------------------- FS 447 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:34:54 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 09/16/10 From: icrashrc@aol.com For those of you who don't know me, I am Scott's wife. I can assure you th at when he was flying around the pattern that he tested the stall speed. He gave me a list of the things he would do on his intial flight. One of those was stall speed. -----Original Message----- From: Kolb-List Digest Server Sent: Fri, Sep 17, 2010 2:57 am Subject: Kolb-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 09/16/10 * ======================= ======================= Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive ======================= ======================= Today's complete Kolb-List Digest can also be found in either of the wo Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted n HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes nd Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version f the Kolb-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor uch as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=ht ml&Chapter 10-09-16&Archive=Kolb Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=tx t&Chapter 10-09-16&Archive=Kolb ======================= ====================== EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive ======================= ====================== ---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 09/16/10: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- oday's Message Index: --------------------- 1. 05:51 AM - That pesky ELSA re-registration problem (Richard Girard ) 2. 10:36 AM - Annual Condition Inspection checklist for Kolbra (Ralph B) 3. 11:24 AM - Re: Annual Condition Inspection checklist for Kolbra (R alph ) 4. 11:52 AM - Scott Thompson's accident (Mike Welch) 5. 02:04 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Mike Welch) 6. 02:20 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (PCKing) 7. 02:41 PM - my email address (Mike Welch) 8. 04:51 PM - Here's what I have gathered; (Mike Welch) 9. 05:36 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (ces308) 10. 05:42 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (Ralph B) 11. 07:25 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (PCKing) 12. 07:47 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (John Hauck) 13. 07:56 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (Mike Welch) 14. 08:03 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Daniel Myers) 15. 08:09 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Mike Welch) 16. 09:27 PM - Re: Here's what I have gathered; (Richard Girard) 17. 09:39 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Daniel Myers) 18. 10:01 PM - Re: Scott Thompson's accident (Mike Welch) _______________________________ Message 1 ______________________________ _______ ime: 05:51:16 AM PST US ubject: Kolb-List: That pesky ELSA re-registration problem rom: Richard Girard After much thought about how to make it legal to re-register an ELSA that he owner has allowed the registration to expire under the terms of the new ule I sent the following to the applicable FAA personnel this morning. "Dear Sirs, There is a problem with the new rule for triennial e-registration of aircraft when it is applied to experimental light sport ircraft (ELSA) that were registered under the provisions of FAR 21.191 (1). f an owner of an ELSA fails to re-register during the applicable period an d he registration expires there is no legal means to register the aircraft gain. AR 21.191 i(1) expired on January 3, 2008. Form 8050-88A (Affidavit of wnership) that is required to be filed along with 8050-1 to register an LSA has been revised so that the only two options for registering an ELSA re through FAR 21.191 i(2) (aircraft built from a kit of a qualifying pecial light sport aircraft (SLSA)) and FAR 21.190 (essentially for anufacturers who need to register a prototype to do compliance testing of n SLSA). believe there is a simple way to fix this problem. Revise form 8050-88A to nclude an option to the effect, "this aircraft was previously registered as _______ under the provisions of FAR 21.191 i(1) and the paperwork is on ile with the FAA". I believe wording like this or similar would allow an rrant owner to re-register the aircraft following expiration with a minimu m f problems and prevent those who might try to use the provision to registe r n aircraft that had not previously been registered. hank you for your time." I did this after spending a good portion of yesterday morning talking and riting to various officials in the FAA about the problem. It occurred to me ate last night that the easiest way to get something fixed when there is a roblem is to present a solution to those who can remedy it. What the heck, t's worth a try. Rick Girard -- ulu Delta olb Mk IIIC 82 Gray head .00 C gearbox blade WD hanks, Homer GBYM It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unab le o imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong. - G.K. Chesterton ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________ ________ ime: 10:36:54 AM PST US ubject: Kolb-List: Annual Condition Inspection checklist for Kolbra rom: "Ralph B" ravis Brown from Kolb asked it I would post the Annual Condition inspectio n hecklist or the Kolbra. This checklist will work for other Kolbs too. Ralph B -------- alph B riginal Firestar 447 91493 E-AB 000 hours 3 years flying it olbra 912UL 20386 years flying it 20 hrs ead this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312658#312658 ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/annual_inspection_checklist_179.doc _______________________________ Message 3 ______________________________ _______ ime: 11:24:48 AM PST US ubject: Kolb-List: Re: Annual Condition Inspection checklist for Kolbra rom: "Ralph B" fter the inspection is finished, post these words in the aircraft logbook: date I certify this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with the scope nd detail of appendix D to Part 43 and found to be in a condition for safe peration. Flight time: XXX.X hours ame of inspector ert #xxxxxxxx -------- alph B riginal Firestar 447 91493 E-AB 000 hours 3 years flying it olbra 912UL 20386 years flying it 20 hrs ead this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312666#312666 _______________________________ Message 4 ______________________________ _______ ime: 11:52:12 AM PST US rom: Mike Welch ubject: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident olb guys=2C I have tried to find out exactly what happened to cause Scott's fatal cr a h. hy? Because it matters a HELL of a lot to me!! At first=2C I thought I'd share what 've found with the entire list=2C then=2C I thought someone may gripe abou it. So=2C if anyone wants to know some of the details about what happened =2C ncluding hat Scott and I discussed a few days prior to his maiden flight=2C email m off he Kolb list=2C and I will share with you what I have found out. Mike Welch ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________ ________ ime: 02:04:08 PM PST US rom: Mike Welch ubject: RE: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident ist members=2C I've had a few guys check in=2C but I'm waiting a little while for few more before we get the conversation going. The primary reason is for the 'off-list' discussion is I can picture omeone asking me "who the hell do you think you are.....?" Me? Nobody. ust a friend of Scott's that would like to figure out what happened=2C hat's all. I sick and damn tired of hearing about my Kolb buddies ieing. I'd like to find out why they died...and do my best not to repeat heir 'mistakes'=2C without trying to pass judgement on them. Mike Welch ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________ ________ ime: 02:20:48 PM PST US rom: "PCKing" ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident ike, You may not have received many offline requests because everyone on the ist doesn't have your email address. I met Scott at AirVenture this year. We spoke about where to source ileron and flap control seals. I was sad to hear that he'd passed away est flying something he was so proud of. I'd like to know what happened. Peter C. King c.king@comcast.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Welch Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 5:00 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident List members, I've had a few guys check in, but I'm waiting a little while for a few more before we get the conversation going. The primary reason is for the 'off-list' discussion is I can picture someone asking me "who the hell do you think you are.....?" Me? obody. Just a friend of Scott's that would like to figure out what happened, that's all. I sick and damn tired of hearing about my Kolb buddies dieing. I'd like to find out why they died...and do my best not to epeat their 'mistakes', without trying to pass judgement on them. Mike Welch _______________________________ Message 7 ______________________________ _______ ime: 02:41:30 PM PST US rom: Mike Welch ubject: Kolb-List: my email address y email address is=3B mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com (don't forget the '7'!! !) Mike Welch ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________ ________ ime: 04:51:45 PM PST US rom: Mike Welch ubject: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered; ist members=2C I have had many members ask me to bring this subject mat te out in the pen. Plus=2C there are way too many people now=2C for me to reply to. (a proaching 30+) ere is what I have this far!! My initial thought was to discuss Scott's accident openly with this list 2C but then I thought 'd be criticized by someone for acting like an investigator. Well=2C I' m OT an investigator=2C ut I certainly am curious about the facts that caused Scott's death=2C esp cially since I do ot want to duplicate them. Then=2C I thought maybe the subject would be best discussed privately bet een those only ho show an interest. Last count=2C I've had about 14 responders=2C so may e we should just ring this out in the open. (I had the same concern regarding John Ratcliffe's accident a few months go. Yet=2C I didn't ay anything=2C and John was soon forgotten=2C it appears. I did some chec ing on his situation=2C nd it seems he must have stalled near turning base to final=2C and nosed i in.) With regard to Scott=2C here is what I have found out. This is by NO me ns any kind of official eport=2C nor do I profess to have all the answers. Additionally=2C I acce t any and all new information hat may correct anything that I may misstate. A few days before Scott made his intitial flight=2C I asked him where he ad his main wing's and is h. stabilizers set at (since the Oshkosh photos made the h.s. look like they were too high) is answer to me was " the main wing is set at where Bryan (@ Kolb Aircraft told him to set them." e went on to say "the h. stabilizers are set like the factory recommends 2C but after he's flown or awhile=2C he can adjust that setting later. (I wish!!) So=2C at this point=2C as far as I know=2C he had the wing incidenc es and hor. stabilizers incidences set ccording to the factory recommended locations! Next=2C when I read one of the news reports from one of the local new s s urces=2C I saw where they aid "according to the initial investigators=2C there didn't 'appear' to be anything wrong with the irplane. That would seem to make sense=2C knowing what a perfectionist Sc tt was. The weather was basically calm=2C although at 8:00pm=2C when the acc ident happened=2C twilight was etting. Light=2C however=2C is NOT likely to be a factor. From discussing this situation with 'others'=2C I have been told Scott ha some introductory flights n a MkIII. Most likely=2C Scott would not have flown solo during this int oductory flight. In one of the news articles=2C it mentioned Scott got his Sport Pilot li ense last year. This would ndicate he probably didn't have a lot of flying time=2C especially when yo consider he was spending lot of time trying to finish building his plane! Scott was=2C you coul d ay=2C 'a low-time' pilot. So=2C up to this point=2C the plane itself=2C the weather=2C the lighting 2C and the wing's incidences=2C don't appear o have caused the accident. What's left?? According to Carol=3B Scott took off and flew around a cou le of times=2C and when he came n to land=2C it just nose-dived in. It landed initially on the pacemen t 2C but continued to tumble onto the rass. What does this tell us? If Carol is complete in her description=2C and a l Scott did was "fly around a ouple of times" =2C and then try to land=2C this tells us he did NOT climb to altitude and explore the plane's lying parameters. It primarily tells us he did not find out the plane's E ACT stall speed=2C and now we'll ever know! With the fact that Scott was=3B ) a low-time pilot=2C and ) flying a plane that he may not have known the stall speed of ) the mishap occurred at the runway threshold=2C coming in for his 1st lan ing I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final=2C where it nose -di ed into the runway=2C and rolled. If these events are indeed accurate and correct=2C I am very sad=2C becau e they seem to be so avoidable. will miss Scott. I'm am sorry he misjudged the situation=2C and let it g t out of control (if these facts re accurate). Training=2C people=2C training!! Having crashed an ultralight simil ar to these circumstances=2C all I can say s these accidents can be avoided=2C or at least minimized with proper fl ig t education. These are the facts as I've been able to acertain. If anyone knows more 2C please share it with us. f I've mistated something=2C please correct the record. Best regards to all=2C ike Welch ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________ ________ ime: 05:36:35 PM PST US ubject: Kolb-List: Re: Here's what I have gathered; rom: "ces308" hank you Mike, I am sorry for Scott,but it does appear he made a terrible mistake,however ,It's ice to here there doesn't appear to have been a fault of the aircraft. These are fun airplanes to fly,but to an even greater degree because of th ere ack f weight to keep things going,you need to be very aware of your airspeed n final...where my 172 flies right through a wind gust,my M3X will stop fl ying nd you can never forget that. Thanks again for the information...every one CAN learn from this ,if they isten. chris ambrose 3X/Jabiru 150.3 hrs 2500. total 327CS ead this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312697#312697 _______________________________ Message 10 _____________________________ _______ ime: 05:42:23 PM PST US ubject: Kolb-List: Re: Here's what I have gathered; rom: "Ralph B" ike, I'm not an accident investigator either, but I do know that many fata l ccidents ccur due to stall-spins on landing. I was once told, "If there is any ne thing to remember about flying, it's airspeed". This is especially true upon anding. It would be better to come in hot and use up runway than to bend p your airplane or hurt yourself. It's a fine line sometimes to slow it up or o off the end of a short runway. I tend to keep more speed than most pilot s nd maybe this has saved me a few times. Kolb's, like other light aircraft have ore built-in drag than heavy and clean ones. They tend to lose speed more uickly. his means keeping the power on and nose down until it's on the ground. t's all about speed. Without that, the wings don't lift. Ralph B -------- alph B riginal Firestar 447 91493 E-AB 000 hours 3 years flying it olbra 912UL 20386 years flying it 20 hrs ead this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312698#312698 _______________________________ Message 11 _____________________________ _______ ime: 07:25:38 PM PST US rom: "PCKing" ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered; Mike, Thank you. Brian Carpenter (Rainbow Aviation) just did a webinar titled "GA to LSA: ake a Safe Transition" He makes a compelling case for maintaining irspeed on final because of the low mass and high drag of the fat ltralight LSAs. He describes them as a cotton ball compared to the GA olf ball. The highest percentage of LSA accidents occur with GA pilots t the stick. The webinar is archived at http://www.eaavideo.org/channel.aspx?ch=ch_webinars Peter C. King ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Welch Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 7:48 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered; List members, I have had many members ask me to bring this subject atter out in the open. Plus, there are way too many people now, for me to reply to. approaching 30+) Here is what I have this far!! My initial thought was to discuss Scott's accident openly with this ist, but then I thought I'd be criticized by someone for acting like an investigator. Well, 'm NOT an investigator, but I certainly am curious about the facts that caused Scott's death, specially since I do not want to duplicate them. Then, I thought maybe the subject would be best discussed privately etween those only who show an interest. Last count, I've had about 14 responders, so aybe we should just bring this out in the open. (I had the same concern regarding John Ratcliffe's accident a few onths ago. Yet, I didn't say anything, and John was soon forgotten, it appears. I did some hecking on his situation, and it seems he must have stalled near turning base to final, and osed it in.) With regard to Scott, here is what I have found out. This is by NO eans any kind of official report, nor do I profess to have all the answers. Additionally, I ccept any and all new information that may correct anything that I may misstate. A few days before Scott made his intitial flight, I asked him where e had his main wing's and his h. stabilizers set at (since the Oshkosh photos made the h.s. look ike they were too high) His answer to me was " the main wing is set at where Bryan (@ Kolb ircraft) told him to set them." He went on to say "the h. stabilizers are set like the factory ecommends, but after he's flown for awhile, he can adjust that setting later. (I wish!!) So, at this point, as far as I know, he had the wing incidences and or. stabilizers incidences set according to the factory recommended locations! Next, when I read one of the news reports from one of the local ews sources, I saw where they said "according to the initial investigators, there didn't 'appear' to e anything wrong with the airplane. That would seem to make sense, knowing what a perfectionist cott was. The weather was basically calm, although at 8:00pm, when the ccident happened, twilight was setting. Light, however, is NOT likely to be a factor. From discussing this situation with 'others', I have been told Scott ad some introductory flights in a MkIII. Most likely, Scott would not have flown solo during this ntroductory flight. In one of the news articles, it mentioned Scott got his Sport Pilot icense last year. This would indicate he probably didn't have a lot of flying time, especially when ou consider he was spending a lot of time trying to finish building his plane! Scott was, you ould say, 'a low-time' pilot. So, up to this point, the plane itself, the weather, the lighting, nd the wing's incidences, don't appear to have caused the accident. What's left?? According to Carol; Scott took off and flew around a ouple of times, and when he came in to land, it just nose-dived in. It landed initially on the acement, but continued to tumble onto the grass. What does this tell us? If Carol is complete in her description, nd all Scott did was "fly around a couple of times" , and then try to land, this tells us he did NOT limb to altitude and explore the plane's flying parameters. It primarily tells us he did not find out the lane's EXACT stall speed, and now we'll never know! With the fact that Scott was; A) a low-time pilot, and B) flying a plane that he may not have known the stall speed of C) the mishap occurred at the runway threshold, coming in for his 1st anding I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final, where it ose-dived into the runway, and rolled. If these events are indeed accurate and correct, I am very sad, ecause they seem to be so avoidable. I will miss Scott. I'm am sorry he misjudged the situation, and let t get out of control (if these facts are accurate). Training, people, training!! Having crashed an ultralight similar o these circumstances, all I can say is these accidents can be avoided, or at least minimized with proper light education. These are the facts as I've been able to acertain. If anyone knows ore, please share it with us. If I've mistated something, please correct the record. Best regards to all, Mike Welch _______________________________ Message 12 _____________________________ _______ ime: 07:47:04 PM PST US rom: "John Hauck" ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident Mike W: Have you discussed your findings with the NTSB? Maybe your information would help in their investigation and their etermination of the cause of the accident. john h kIII ock House, OR I have tried to find out exactly what happened to cause Scott's atal crash. Why? Because it matters a HELL of a lot to me!! At first, I thought 'd share what I've found with the entire list, then, I thought someone may gripe bout it. So, if anyone wants to know some of the details about what happened, ncluding what Scott and I discussed a few days prior to his maiden flight, mail me off the Kolb list, and I will share with you what I have found out. Mike Welch ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________ ________ ime: 07:56:23 PM PST US rom: Mike Welch ubject: RE: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered; eter=2C Certainly there is no disputing that some GA pilots do seem to have trou b e ransitioning from the factory iron to the lighter=2C less mass SLA or li gh planes. However=2C in Scott's case=2C I'm afraid that "transitioning" wasn't the ssue=2C because ince he only got his Sport Pilot license last year=2C he couldn't have had very many ours in GA airplanes. At least=2C that's what I'm led to believe. Additionally=2C Carol described him as 'coming in for a landing' and th en he sort of nose-dived". This scenario is much more indicative of an approach-to-land ng- tall=2C rather than the typical GA to LSA failure to handle the mass dif fe ences etween the two (at touchdown). Airspeed is one thing you cannot ignor when flying an airplane=2C lest th ground ise up and smite thee!!! Mike Welch ike=2C Thank you. Brian Carpenter (Rainbow Aviation) just did a webinar titled "GA to LSA: Ma e a Safe Transition" He makes a compelling case for maintaining airspeed o final because of the low mass and high drag of the fat ultralight LSAs. H describes them as a cotton ball compared to the GA golf ball. The highest percentage of LSA accidents occur with GA pilots at the stick. The webinar is archived at http://www.eaavideo.org/channel.aspx?ch=ch_webinars Peter C. King ---- Original Message ----- rom: Mike Welch ent: Thursday=2C September 16=2C 2010 7:48 PM ubject: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered=3B List members=2C I have had many members ask me to bring this subject ma tte out in the pen. Plus=2C there are way too many people now=2C for me to reply to. (a proaching 30+) ere is what I have this far!! My initial thought was to discuss Scott's accident openly with this list 2C but then I thought 'd be criticized by someone for acting like an investigator. Well=2C I' m OT an investigator=2C ut I certainly am curious about the facts that caused Scott's death=2C esp cially since I do ot want to duplicate them. Then=2C I thought maybe the subject would be best discussed privately bet een those only ho show an interest. Last count=2C I've had about 14 responders=2C so may e we should just ring this out in the open. (I had the same concern regarding John Ratcliffe's accident a few months go. Yet=2C I didn't ay anything=2C and John was soon forgotten=2C it appears. I did some chec ing on his situation=2C nd it seems he must have stalled near turning base to final=2C and nosed i in.) With regard to Scott=2C here is what I have found out. This is by NO me ns any kind of official eport=2C nor do I profess to have all the answers. Additionally=2C I acce t any and all new information hat may correct anything that I may misstate. A few days before Scott made his intitial flight=2C I asked him where he ad his main wing's and is h. stabilizers set at (since the Oshkosh photos made the h.s. look like they were too high) is answer to me was " the main wing is set at where Bryan (@ Kolb Aircraft told him to set them." e went on to say "the h. stabilizers are set like the factory recommends 2C but after he's flown or awhile=2C he can adjust that setting later. (I wish!!) So=2C at this point=2C as far as I know=2C he had the wing incidenc es and hor. stabilizers incidences set ccording to the factory recommended locations! Next=2C when I read one of the news reports from one of the local new s s urces=2C I saw where they aid "according to the initial investigators=2C there didn't 'appear' to be anything wrong with the irplane. That would seem to make sense=2C knowing what a perfectionist Sc tt was. The weather was basically calm=2C although at 8:00pm=2C when the acc ident happened=2C twilight was etting. Light=2C however=2C is NOT likely to be a factor. From discussing this situation with 'others'=2C I have been told Scott ha some introductory flights n a MkIII. Most likely=2C Scott would not have flown solo during this int oductory flight. In one of the news articles=2C it mentioned Scott got his Sport Pilot li ense last year. This would ndicate he probably didn't have a lot of flying time=2C especially when yo consider he was spending lot of time trying to finish building his plane! Scott was=2C you coul d ay=2C 'a low-time' pilot. So=2C up to this point=2C the plane itself=2C the weather=2C the lighting 2C and the wing's incidences=2C don't appear o have caused the accident. What's left?? According to Carol=3B Scott took off and flew around a cou le of times=2C and when he came n to land=2C it just nose-dived in. It landed initially on the pacemen t 2C but continued to tumble onto the rass. What does this tell us? If Carol is complete in her description=2C and a l Scott did was "fly around a ouple of times" =2C and then try to land=2C this tells us he did NOT climb to altitude and explore the plane's lying parameters. It primarily tells us he did not find out the plane's E ACT stall speed=2C and now we'll ever know! With the fact that Scott was=3B ) a low-time pilot=2C and ) flying a plane that he may not have known the stall speed of ) the mishap occurred at the runway threshold=2C coming in for his 1st lan ing I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final=2C where it nose -di ed into the runway=2C and rolled. If these events are indeed accurate and correct=2C I am very sad=2C becau e they seem to be so avoidable. will miss Scott. I'm am sorry he misjudged the situation=2C and let it g t out of control (if these facts re accurate). Training=2C people=2C training!! Having crashed an ultralight simil ar to these circumstances=2C all I can say s these accidents can be avoided=2C or at least minimized with proper fl ig t education. These are the facts as I've been able to acertain. If anyone knows more 2C please share it with us. f I've mistated something=2C please correct the record. Best regards to all=2C ike Welch ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics. om/Navigator?Kolb-List ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________ ________ ime: 08:03:33 PM PST US ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident rom: Daniel Myers Class move John I like it aniel Sent from my iPhone On Sep 16=2C 2010=2C at 3:23 PM=2C "John Hauck" wrot : > Mike W: Have you discussed your findings with the NTSB? Maybe your information would help in their investigation and their determ nation of the cause of the accident. john h mkIII Rock House=2C OR I have tried to find out exactly what happened to cause Scott's fatal rash. Why? Because it matters a HELL of a lot to me!! At first=2C I thought I d share what I've found with the entire list=2C then=2C I thought someone may grip e ab ut it. So=2C if anyone wants to know some of the details about what happened 2C including what Scott and I discussed a few days prior to his maiden flight=2C ema il me off the Kolb list=2C and I will share with you what I have found out. Mike Welch ======== ======== ======== ======== ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________ ________ ime: 08:09:48 PM PST US rom: Mike Welch ubject: RE: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident Mike W: >Have you discussed your findings with the NTSB? >Maybe your information would help in their investigation and their determ i ation of >the cause of the accident. >john h mkIII John H=2C No=2C I haven't=2C but I will be calling them tomorrow. But the fac t is 2C I shared hat little information I dug up=2C and packaged into one concise email. T e nformation I gathered was either reading it in news articles relating to t e rash (in otherwords...public information)=2C my emails with Scott=2C just rior o his flight=2C and telephone conversations with a couple of Kolb list mem ers. I'm simply trying to save lives. Do you have a problem with my discuss i n? m I supposed to contact that NTSB to show a concern for Kolb pilots? Mike Welch ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________ ________ ime: 09:27:32 PM PST US ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered; rom: Richard Girard Whoa! Let's get something straight. Gusts and wind affect glide path and round speed, not airspeed. The danger is inexperienced pilots who get ixated on a point and pull back on the stick in an effort to maintain glid e oward that point. The only thing that counts is airspeed, period. s I told Mike when we talked on Sunday, I have a mantra that goes on in my ead, and sometimes out loud, from the moment I pull power back from cruise o set up an approach. It's just two words, Hold 50. If you watched the ideo I made about the sight picture as it changes for flap settings, you an hear me over the sound of the 582 saying, "turning final, HOLD 50". It' s y choice of approach airspeed for my Mk III based upon the stall speeds I ocumented. It makes absolutely no difference if I hold some power in eserve or close the throttle completely, it's HOLD 50 and it stays HOLD 50 ntil I pull back on the stick to round out and let her settle to the round. If I'm a little too high on approach, which I actually prefer, I ca n lip Zulu Delta to lose altitude a little faster, and I still HOLD 50. Rick Girard On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 9:18 PM, PCKing wrote: > Mike, Thank you. Brian Carpenter (Rainbow Aviation) just did a webinar titled "GA to LSA: Make a Safe Transition" He makes a compelling case for maintaining airspe ed on final because of the low mass and high drag of the fat ultralight LSAs .. He describes them as a cotton ball compared to the GA golf ball. The high est percentage of LSA accidents occur with GA pilots at the stick. The webinar is archived at http://www.eaavideo.org/channel.aspx?ch=ch_webinars Peter C. King ----- Original Message ----- *From:* Mike Welch *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com *Sent:* Thursday, September 16, 2010 7:48 PM *Subject:* Kolb-List: Here's what I have gathered; List members, I have had many members ask me to bring this subject matte r out in the open. Plus, there are way too many people now, for me to reply to. (approaching 30+) Here is what I have this far!! My initial thought was to discuss Scott's accident openly with this list, but then I thought I'd be criticized by someone for acting like an investigator. Well, I'm NOT an investigator, but I certainly am curious about the facts that caused Scott's death, especially since I do not want to duplicate them. Then, I thought maybe the subject would be best discussed privately between those only who show an interest. Last count, I've had about 14 responders, so maybe we should just bring this out in the open. (I had the same concern regarding John Ratcliffe's accident a few month s ago. Yet, I didn't say anything, and John was soon forgotten, it appears. I did some checki ng on his situation, and it seems he must have stalled near turning base to final, and nosed it in.) With regard to Scott, here is what I have found out. This is by NO means any kind of official report, nor do I profess to have all the answers. Additionally, I accept any and all new information that may correct anything that I may misstate. A few days before Scott made his intitial flight, I asked him where he had his main wing's and his h. stabilizers set at (since the Oshkosh photos made the h.s. look li ke they were too high) His answer to me was " the main wing is set at where Bryan (@ Kolb Aircraft) told him to set them." He went on to say "the h. stabilizers are set like the factory recommends , but after he's flown for awhile, he can adjust that setting later. (I wish!!) So, at this point, as far as I know, he had the wing incidences and hor .. stabilizers incidences set according to the factory recommended locations! Next, when I read one of the news reports from one of the local news sources, I saw where they said "according to the initial investigators, there didn't 'appear' to be anything wrong with the airplane. That would seem to make sense, knowing what a perfectionist Scott was. The weather was basically calm, although at 8:00pm, when the accident happened, twilight was setting. Light, however, is NOT likely to be a factor. From discussing this situation with 'others', I have been told Scott ha d some introductory flights in a MkIII. Most likely, Scott would not have flown solo during this introductory flight. In one of the news articles, it mentioned Scott got his Sport Pilot license last year. This would indicate he probably didn't have a lot of flying time, especially when yo u consider he was spending a lot of time trying to finish building his plane! Scott was, you could say, 'a low-time' pilot. So, up to this point, the plane itself, the weather, the lighting, and the wing's incidences, don't appear to have caused the accident. What's left?? According to Carol; Scott took off and flew around a couple of times, and when he came in to land, it just nose-dived in. It landed initially on the pacement, but continued to tumble onto the grass. What does this tell us? If Carol is complete in her description, and all Scott did was "fly around a couple of times" , and then try to land, this tells us he did NOT climb to altitude and explore the plane's flying parameters. It primarily tells us he did not find out the plane's EXACT stall speed, and now we'll never know! With the fact that Scott was; A) a low-time pilot, and B) flying a plane that he may not have known the stall speed of C) the mishap occurred at the runway threshold, coming in for his 1st landing I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final, where it nose-dived into the runway, and rolled. If these events are indeed accurate and correct, I am very sad, because they seem to be so avoidable. I will miss Scott. I'm am sorry he misjudged the situation, and let it get out of control (if these facts are accurate). Training, people, training!! Having crashed an ultralight similar to these circumstances, all I can say is these accidents can be avoided, or at least minimized with proper flig ht education. These are the facts as I've been able to acertain. If anyone knows mor e, please share it with us. If I've mistated something, please correct the record. Best regards to all, Mike Welch * href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c * * * - ulu Delta olb Mk IIIC 82 Gray head .00 C gearbox blade WD hanks, Homer GBYM It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unab le o imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong. - G.K. Chesterton ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________ ________ ime: 09:39:45 PM PST US ubject: Re: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident rom: Daniel Myers Mike=2C my uncle died in my kolb and no one knows what happened except for im. Kolbs Are great planes but are very unforgiving. I continue to fly Kol s only because I know not to get close to that stall speed. I have only ow ed two Kolbs but I know the limits..this guy was on his first flight=2C it s a terrible situation because he didn't know the kolb and it's limits. aniel Sent from my iPhoned On Sep 16=2C 2010=2C at 11:06 PM=2C Mike Welch wr te: > >Mike W: >Have you discussed your findings with the NTSB? >Maybe your information would help in their investigation and their deter ination of >the cause of the accident. >john h >mkIII John H=2C No=2C I haven't=2C but I will be calling them tomorrow. But the fa ct i =2C I shared what little information I dug up=2C and packaged into one concise email . The information I gathered was either reading it in news articles relating to the crash (in otherwords...public information)=2C my emails with Scott=2C jus prior to his flight=2C and telephone conversations with a couple of Kolb list m mbers. I'm simply trying to save lives. Do you have a problem with my discus ion? Am I supposed to contact that NTSB to show a concern for Kolb pilots? Mike Welch ======== ======== ======== ======== ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________ ________ ime: 10:01:06 PM PST US rom: Mike Welch ubject: RE: Kolb-List: Scott Thompson's accident ike=2C my uncle died in my kolb and no one knows what happened except fo r im. Kolbs Are great planes but are very unforgiving. I continue to fly Kol s only because I know not to get close to that stall speed. I have only ow ed two Kolbs but I know the limits..this guy was on his first flight=2C it s a terrible situation because he didn't know the kolb and it's limits. aniel Daniel=2C You are exactly right (with your last statement). I am afraid it is pos s ble it is as simple as e may have simply misjudged what he was doing. Of course=2C we will nev er know the whole truth now. It is only my intention to help educate those of us who fly=2C or are yet to fly=2C their Kolb aircraft. rashing and dieing does little good to both the families left behind and t e reputation of the aircraft. I ould like to reduce the damage by analyzing what we know=2C and learn fr om our errors. Believe it or ot=2C there may be people who have a problem with that. Mike Welch y condolences regarding your uncle=2C Daniel. -======================= ======================= ========== -= - The Kolb-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List - -======================= ======================= ========== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================= ======================= ========== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================= ======================= ========== ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:30 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Upgrading from current 4.00-6 "Garden" tires. From: "gotime242" Thanks, i just wanted to be sure it was ok/safe to go wider than recommended or than the width of the rim since there is only 4.00's on there now. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312833#312833 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:19 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: kolb stall From: Richard Neilsen Hey All There has been a lot of good discussion since Scott's tragic accident. My concern is that it leaves the impression that there is a problem or bad flight characteristic with our airplanes which there is not. I'm not a major high time pilot but I have had the opportunity to fly quite a few different airplanes and none are as good as our Kolbs. Our planes have tremendous short field capabilities that when fully utilized (flaps and no power landings) does require a high level of precision. Pilots new to the Kolb flight characteristics will have problems with these flight characteristics no matter how skilled they are in other aircraft. Land with power and stay away from the flaps till you get very good at it. Then very gradually land with less power OR using more flaps. Don't progress too quickly. I have a set of fully retracted Kolb landing gear legs that I bent when I progressed to full flaps and no power way too quickly. Flight instructors not used to our Kolbs don't train us how to handle our Kolbs properly/safely. I recently got my check ride with a GA instructor in my Kolb. I was praised for how well I flew the plane in everything but how I flew very short final. He felt I rounded out way too low and with too much airspeed. I think this is a very common mistake that most non Kolb instructors will make. Let me also explain I did fly a bit faster approach rounded out lower because my instructor was a good 100 lbs heaver than anyone I had ever flown in my plane and I was using a very long 2500 ft grass strip. Yes we were a bit over gross weight. Rick Neilsen 1st Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:16:39 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: kolb stall -------------------------------------------------- "John Hauck" wrote: (09/17/2010 16:35) > I know nothing of the results of the investigations, but a Kolb in a nose > high attitude that runs out of airspeed will drop the nose and normally a > wing.... Especially if it's a new airplane that might not be properly trimmed out yet. -Dana ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:41:04 PM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: Kolb-List: airspeed indicator calibration Kolb guys=2C I am in the process of installing all the instruments in my MkIII. One o f the instruments is an analog airspeed indicator. It's a standard=2C typical ty pe of indicator that uses ram air to determine it's reading=2C by way of a pitot tube. Out of the box=2C I can't imagine it can be very accurate=2C can it? I m ean=2C everybody will have their own unique design in installing one of these=2C so I would think that each installation would be off a little from someone else's installation. Or=2C are they much more uniform in their readings? I have the exact placement in my panel and the routing of the tubing pret ty much figured out. For those guys that have installed an airspeed indicator=2C did you calib rate it in any way first=2C or did you just stick it in the plane and live with whatever reading it say s once you start flying the plane? I thought what I would do is essentially build the whole system=2C and ge t someone to drive a car down the road=2C with me hanging the A/S indicator's pitot tube out t he window. While this may seem somewhat silly=2C at least I could an idea how accurate it might b e. At least it's a start=2C right? Has anybody done this?? Or is it a waste of time? For an instrument that has so much riding on it=2C and if new=2C hasn't r eally proven itself for accuracy=2C it seems to me a guy ought to verify in some way it comes "clos e" to the correct airspeed. Any thoughts or experiences would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Mike Welch MkIII ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:02:46 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: airspeed indicator calibration The instrument itself should be quite accurate, but pressure variations at the pitot and static sources can throw it way off. The pressure field around a moving car will make any such calibration meaningless, too. Put it in the plane. You can use your GPS to calibrate it on a dead calm day, or average readings into and with a steady wind. -Dana -------------------------------------------------- Mike Welch wrote: (09/18/2010 18:35) > > Kolb guys, > > I am in the process of installing all the instruments in my MkIII. One of the > instruments is an analog airspeed indicator. It's a standard, typical type of indicator that uses > ram air to determine it's reading, by way of a pitot tube. > > Out of the box, I can't imagine it can be very accurate, can it? I mean, everybody will have > their own unique design in installing one of these, so I would think that each installation would > be off a little from someone else's installation. Or, are they much more uniform in their > readings? > > I have the exact placement in my panel and the routing of the tubing pretty much figured out. > > For those guys that have installed an airspeed indicator, did you calibrate it in any way first, > or did you just stick it in the plane and live with whatever reading it says once you start > flying the plane? > > I thought what I would do is essentially build the whole system, and get someone to drive > a car down the road, with me hanging the A/S indicator's pitot tube out the window. While this > may seem somewhat silly, at least I could an idea how accurate it might be. At least it's a start, > right? Has anybody done this?? Or is it a waste of time? > > For an instrument that has so much riding on it, and if new, hasn't really proven itself for > accuracy, it seems to me a guy ought to verify in some way it comes "close" to the correct > airspeed. > > Any thoughts or experiences would be greatly appreciated. Thanks > > Mike Welch > MkIII > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:28:51 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: airspeed indicator calibration From: "Richard Pike" IMO, it is almost impossible to calibrate an airspeed indicator unless it is in the airplane, because of the variables involved in each installation. When we first flew the FSII, we had screwy airspeed readings, and it turned out we had two problems: one was with the indicator, the other was the pitot location. Fixed the location of the pitot, but the numbers were till odd, so tried an experiment. Strapped a piece of 1 1/2" aluminum tubing onto the roof rack of the Jeep so that the forward end was ahead of and well above the hood (no bow wave allowed) and ran a piece of vinyl tubing to the airspeed indicator. Wrote down the numbers at various speeds, then swapped out the airspeed indicator with another that was known to be good, did it again, and there was quite a disparity. But all that did was prove that the original airspeed indicator was bad. Bought a new one and put it in the airplane and flew it, and compared it to the GPS. It was good enough that we left it alone. Wonder if we hurt it in the wreck? Guess we'll find out in a couple months. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312875#312875 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:27:46 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Here's what I have gathered; From: "R. Hankins" "The kolb stall is very unforgiving-trust me... " h20maule, Your statement is incorrect. It should read: "The stall of my kolb is very unforgiving-trust me... ". I have never flown your kolb, but I have flown 2 MarkIIIs, 4 firestars and a Kolbra and none of them had unforgiving stall characteristics. The worst one was mine when I had the VGs mounted too far back. This was the only kolb I have flown that had a sharp stall break, but recovery was still quick, straightforward and uneventful. Moving the VGs forward gave me back my gentle airplane. Unforgiving is a pretty subjective term. Can you describe what it is about stalls in your kolb that makes them less than desirable? Maybe there is something unique about your plane that can be changed to improve its handling? -------- Roger in Oregon 1992 KXP 503 - N1782C Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312882#312882 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:33 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Any KOLBs in South Florida? From: "Fran Losey" I am in West Boca. Building right now(long way to go). Loseyf@comcast.net is my personal email. Fran Losey ------Original Message------ From: gotime242 Sender: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com ReplyTo: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Any KOLBs in South Florida? Sent: Sep 19, 2010 11:31 Hello all, Just wanted to revive this thread from the dead. Anyone still flying around S FL? I fly a FS 2 out of lantana airport and live in west palm beach. It would be cool to meet up with some other kolb flyers. Ill be flying mine for a couple more months and then probably selling it. Its very airworthy, just not very pretty which is what i intend to change. Anyway...let me know! -Dylan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312922#312922 Fran Losey www.mykitlog.com/loseyf Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:02:17 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Kolb-List: Rock House 2010 Hi Gang: Some recent photos from the Rock House, Oregon: Places a Kolb will take you: -Owyhee River Canyon. -Flightline at the Rock House. -Sometimes we can not always fly our Kolbs. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:27:11 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Any KOLBs in South Florida? From: zeprep251@aol.com South Florida guys, I' m down to Lakeland after Thanksgiving and have gotten together with Bea uford,Rick Nielsen and 3 or 4 other Kolb pilots from the East side a coupl e of times last winter.We picked an airport about 40 miles east of Venice, can't remember the name,for a packed lunch.All you have to do is start the ball rolling,pick a neutral field and you'd be surprised at how many Kolb s show up. G.Aman MK-3/Jabiru 2200a 590hrs P.S. If you don't bring the Kolb down this year Rick,I,ll pick you up on the wa y to gather up Beauford. -----Original Message----- From: Fran Losey Sent: Sun, Sep 19, 2010 1:17 pm Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Any KOLBs in South Florida? I am in West Boca. Building right now(long way to go). Loseyf@comcast.net is my personal email. Fran Losey ------Original Message------ From: gotime242 Sender: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com ReplyTo: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Any KOLBs in South Florida? Sent: Sep 19, 2010 11:31 Hello all, Just wanted to revive this thread from the dead. Anyone still flying around S FL? I fly a FS 2 out of lantana airport and live in west palm beach. It would be cool to meet up with some other kolb flyers. Ill be flying mine for a couple more months and then probably selling it. Its very airworthy, just not very pretty which is what i intend to change. Anyway...let me know! -Dylan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312922#312922 Fran Losey www.mykitlog.com/loseyf Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerr y ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:12:29 PM PST US From: Ron Hoyt Subject: Re: Kolb-List: airspeed indicator calibration Here is a paper on calibrating Air speed. For initial flights the other comments on watching for the stall/takeoff are all you need. Ron On 9/18/2010 5:35 PM, Mike Welch wrote: > > Kolb guys, > > I am in the process of installing all the instruments in my MkIII. One of the > instruments is an analog airspeed indicator. It's a standard, typical type of indicator that uses > ram air to determine it's reading, by way of a pitot tube. > > Out of the box, I can't imagine it can be very accurate, can it? I mean, everybody will have > their own unique design in installing one of these, so I would think that each installation would > be off a little from someone else's installation. Or, are they much more uniform in their > readings? > > I have the exact placement in my panel and the routing of the tubing pretty much figured out. > > For those guys that have installed an airspeed indicator, did you calibrate it in any way first, > or did you just stick it in the plane and live with whatever reading it says once you start > flying the plane? > > I thought what I would do is essentially build the whole system, and get someone to drive > a car down the road, with me hanging the A/S indicator's pitot tube out the window. While this > may seem somewhat silly, at least I could an idea how accurate it might be. At least it's a start, > right? Has anybody done this?? Or is it a waste of time? > > For an instrument that has so much riding on it, and if new, hasn't really proven itself for > accuracy, it seems to me a guy ought to verify in some way it comes "close" to the correct > airspeed. > > Any thoughts or experiences would be greatly appreciated. Thanks > > Mike Welch > MkIII > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:49:52 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Kolb-List: Rock House 2010 Gene Z/Gang: The photos came out great on the BBS: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=74637&sid=7f7045dc8c1c19757e2c7e4a4ec8faa2 Sorry about the gigantic mess it created on the email list. ;-) john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:36 PM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Rock House 2010 - John- Thanks for the photos.- Having somebody in the river gives a ne w perspective on the stuff he's been flying over.- May as well be fishing on Mars, compared to here.- I will never see it, so you have to do it fo r me.- Want more! - do not archive - ------------------------- ------------------------- --- Bill Sullivan ------------------------- ------------------------- --- Windsor Locks, Ct. ------------------------- ------------------------- --- FS 447 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:28:04 PM PST US From: russ kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rock House 2010 Bill Of course you'll see it! -- just have to finish the Kolb & maybe win a lotto or two. Think positive! Russ On Sep 19, 2010, at 5:52 PM, william sullivan wrote: > John- Thanks for the photos. Having somebody in the river gives > a new perspective on the stuff he's been flying over. May as well > be fishing on Mars, compared to here. I will never see it, so you > have to do it for me. Want more! > > do not archive > > Bill Sullivan > Windsor > Locks, Ct. > FS 447 > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:51:22 PM PST US From: "gtaylor" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: kolb stall Not to ask a stupid question, I am familiar with CG, is VG a typo, or something else. Thanks, Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack B. Hart" Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 12:36 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: kolb stall > > Kolbers, > > A couple of comments. VG's will move the center of lift a little to the > rear. Also different planes of the same model will stall differently due > to > differences in cg. Moving them to the rear will give a more gentle break > and/or mush. Move them forward, and the stall will be more pronounced. > > Jack B. Hart FF004 > Winchester, IN > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:56:41 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Any KOLBs in South Florida? From: "Watkinsdw" Hi, guys, We have a Mk3c at Pompano. Don't fly every weekend, but are almost always accessible. The flyin mentioned was Arcadia. One poss is Okeechobee. Decent restaurant, lots of room on ramp. Dave Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312964#312964 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 04:03:55 PM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb stall - VG's are vortex generators.- Look them up on the Matronics Wiki for d iscussions.- Jack Hart has an excellent web site, and they can also be lo oked up there.- Look it up on the web as "Firefly Slide Show".- I don't have the address handy.- - ------------------------- ------------------- Bill Sullivan ------------------------- ------------------- Windsor Locks, Ct .. ------------------------- --------------------FS 447 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:09:35 PM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: kolb stall At 06:37 PM 9/19/10 -0400, you wrote: > >Not to ask a stupid question, I am familiar with CG, is VG a typo, or >something else. --------------------------- Greg, VG's is a short form for vortex generators Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 05:29:02 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Any KOLBs in South Florida? From: "gotime242" Watkinsdw wrote: > Hi, guys, > We have a Mk3c at Pompano. > Don't fly every weekend, but are almost always > accessible. > The flyin mentioned was Arcadia. > One poss is Okeechobee. Decent restaurant, lots of room on ramp. > Dave That would be fun due to the restaurant, ive been up there quite a bit in the past. I would love to get a little kolb fly-in going in this area. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312976#312976 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 05:34:44 PM PST US From: russ kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: kolb stall Can you access the subject of VG's thru Matt or somehow? (Vortex Generators) There's been a lot of talk about them in the past Worth reading. On Sep 19, 2010, at 6:37 PM, gtaylor wrote: > > > Not to ask a stupid question, I am familiar with CG, is VG a typo, > or something else. > Thanks, Greg > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack B. Hart" > > To: > Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 12:36 PM > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: kolb stall > > >> >> >> Kolbers, >> >> A couple of comments. VG's will move the center of lift a little >> to the >> rear. Also different planes of the same model will stall >> differently due to >> differences in cg. Moving them to the rear will give a more >> gentle break >> and/or mush. Move them forward, and the stall will be more >> pronounced. >> >> Jack B. Hart FF004 >> Winchester, IN >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 06:42:20 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: airspeed indicator calibration From: "Richard Pike" rrh(at)rrhoyt.com wrote: > Here is a paper on calibrating Air speed. For initial flights the other > comments on watching for the stall/takeoff are all you need. > > Ron > > Great paper. It had a url for a downloadable Excel spread sheet but the link was broken. By any chance do you have a copy of that spread sheet? And if so, can you make it available? That would be a great resource. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312985#312985 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 08:40:02 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Any KOLBs in South Florida? From: "JetPilot" There are two of us flying two different Kolb MK-III's in Miami. It would be cool to get get together of the Kolbs around here !!! Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312996#312996 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 09:10:15 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Here's what I have gathered; From: "JetPilot" The Kolb will stall VERY easily compared to most sport aircraft. The high thrust line of the Kolb MK III assures that the Kolb will tend to pitch up as soon as you pull the power off, the very high drag and low mass of the Kolb MK III will assure that the Kolb will bleed its speed off almost instantly once you pull off the power. Combine the two, a pitching up moment, and an almost instantaneous loss of speed and you have something that is guaranteed to kill a pilot that is not prepared for it, or one that has been flying other types of aircraft. I do not consider this a problem at all, dealing with these characteristics is second nature to me and I do not even have to think about it... But I have no illusions about this either, this characteristic would be a HUGE surprise and most likely kill a pilot that had been flying other tractor type aircraft. We would be doing any new Kolb pilot a life saving favor to make him very aware of these things before his first flight rather than being in denial about it. The Kolb has a very gentle stall, but if you are not experienced in a Kolb, it will take you into that gentle stall very very quickly when the power is pulled off. Having a gentle stall is not much of a consolation when you are 30 feet over the runway, hitting the ground in a stall can kill you weather the stall was gentle or not... My MK III Xtra would be very difficult to fly with the Horizontal tail incidence set so high on the tail boom. Mine MK III Xtra flys with the leading edge of the horizontal stab set to the middle of the boom. My wings, boom etc, are set exactly per the Kolb specs, to 1/10 of a degree according to my very accurate digital level. If Scott had an out of trim condition, and was not experienced in flying a Kolb, it is no surprise that his first flight ended the way it did. So there are two things to learn here. First have an experienced pilot fly any new Kolb on its first flight, it may be very very difficult. Second, before a new pilot flys a Kolb, he should have sufficient instruction, and should be made WELL AWARE of how quickly he will run out of speed once the power is pulled off. The Kolbs will fly well, and are a lot of fun, relaxing, and safe when you know how to fly them, but they are NOT easy to fly, especially for pilots of tractor type aircraft that will not be expecting the pitch up combined with instant loss of airspeed when the power is reduced. If we can get this information out, we can help avoid any repeats of this type of accident in the future. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312997#312997 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 11:01:23 PM PST US From: "gtaylor" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: kolb stall I'm not sure who Matt is, I am new to the list, a 250 hr pilot with IFR, but I have only about 1.5 in my Kolb Firestar. I bought it already built, went through it pretty thoroughly and then test flew it. I have seen all the threads about Scott's accident and was worried that his wife could be monitoring the list and see all the comments. This is something that she doesn't need right now, what she needs is our condolences and our prayers. As pilots we all know and I remember my ground school instructor telling us that airspeed is your life, so the most important thing in flying is managing that air speed. I told myself what testing I was going to do on my initial flight, and I wound up just flying around the patch several times and doing touch and goes. I did no stalls, or any of the testing I was planning on doing. This was about a month or two ago maybe longer, since then I have mowed a runway off behind my house and tried to fly out of it. I only have about 400 ft of good usable runway maybe five, and I learned the hard way how easy it is to put the nose in the dirt, I aborted a take off because when I was ready to leave the ground at a certain point on the runway the plane wasn't. I went past the end of my runway because the breaks weren't strong enough and went into some high weeds which along with full breaks caused me to put the nose in the dirt. After repairing the nose cone and replacing the tube/hinge for the rudder pedals I have decided that I need to go back to the airport, maybe even fly from there to a local grass strip to do some more testing before I play bush pilot out of my back yard. I don't consider myself to be an elite pilot at 250 hrs nor will I at a thousand, It seems that I have read before that we are all student pilots because there is always something new to learn in aviation, Its when we think we know it all that we get ourselves into trouble, that's why I talked to a lot of people with experience with Kolb's and ultralights to learn as much as I can and I believe it saved my life because I had never heard of aileron flutter before, I saw it on a thread on this list and ask a local guy who is in the know when comes to building ultralights and LSA, and sure enough on my first go around the pattern I experienced it turning on final because I let my airspeed get to high, I did what Mike said that he did when he experienced it, and it came right out of it. Thanks, Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: "russ kinne" Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 7:21 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: kolb stall > > Can you access the subject of VG's thru Matt or somehow? (Vortex > Generators) > There's been a lot of talk about them in the past > Worth reading. > > On Sep 19, 2010, at 6:37 PM, gtaylor wrote: > >> >> Not to ask a stupid question, I am familiar with CG, is VG a typo, or >> something else. >> Thanks, Greg >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack B. Hart" >> >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 12:36 PM >> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: kolb stall >> >> >>> >>> >>> Kolbers, >>> >>> A couple of comments. VG's will move the center of lift a little to >>> the >>> rear. Also different planes of the same model will stall differently >>> due to >>> differences in cg. Moving them to the rear will give a more gentle >>> break >>> and/or mush. Move them forward, and the stall will be more pronounced. >>> >>> Jack B. Hart FF004 >>> Winchester, IN >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.