Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:45 AM - Kolb Firestar Fuel consumption (Lanny Fetterman)
2. 05:45 AM - Re: Construction (Rick Lewis)
3. 06:00 AM - Re: Re: Construction (Herb)
4. 06:08 AM - Corrosion (Lanny Fetterman)
5. 07:25 AM - Re: Re: Construction (Richard Girard)
6. 07:34 AM - Re: Corrosion (Richard Girard)
7. 07:40 AM - Re: Kolb Firestar Fuel consumption (Thom Riddle)
8. 07:57 AM - Corrosion (Lanny Fetterman)
9. 08:53 AM - Re: Corrosion (Ralph B)
10. 09:26 AM - Re: Kolb Firestar Fuel consumption (Arksey@aol.com)
11. 09:41 AM - Re: Re: Corrosion (Richard Girard)
12. 10:27 AM - Re: Re: Construction (Dana Hague)
13. 11:44 AM - Re: Re: Construction (Herb)
14. 12:09 PM - Re: Re: Construction (Eugene Zimmerman)
15. 12:38 PM - Kolb Firestar II for sale in Florida. (gotime242)
16. 01:14 PM - Re: Re: Construction (John Hauck)
17. 01:28 PM - Re: Re: Kolb Firestar Fuel consumption (John Hauck)
18. 01:31 PM - Adding additional fuel tanks =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=93?= Jump Seat =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=93?= FS-2 (miyer2u)
19. 01:37 PM - Re: Kolb Firestar Fuel consumption (Thom Riddle)
20. 01:41 PM - Re: Kolb Firestar Fuel consumption (John Hauck)
21. 01:45 PM - Re: Re: Kolb Firestar Fuel consumption (John Hauck)
22. 01:45 PM - Re: Re: Construction (Herb)
23. 01:51 PM - Re: Slingshot thrust line/angle/HKS (McCarthy Tom)
24. 01:58 PM - Re: Re: Construction (John Hauck)
25. 02:04 PM - Re: Kolb Firestar Fuel consumption (Thom Riddle)
26. 02:10 PM - Re: Re: Construction (robert bean)
27. 02:24 PM - Re: Re: Kolb Firestar Fuel consumption (John Hauck)
28. 04:30 PM - Re: Re: Construction (Dennis Souder)
29. 05:09 PM - Replacing UltraStart Red battery (Jack B. Hart)
30. 08:02 PM - Re: Adding additional fuel tanks =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=93?= Jump Seat =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=93?= FS-2 (Richard Pike)
Message 1
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Subject: | Kolb Firestar Fuel consumption |
Dennis, I burn between 3 and 3 1/2 gal per hour. My cruise RPM is
5600 to 5800. Lanny FSII 503 DCDI
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Subject: | Re: Construction |
I absolutely agree with you on this. Every piece of aluminum in my plane has been
corrosion proofed with the epoxy paint recommended in the poly fiber manual.
Its easy to think everything is alright when you can't see it.
Rick Lewis
--------
Rick Lewis
(VW Watercooled Engine)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321906#321906
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/pic00005_182.jpg
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Construction |
6061-T6 does not need corrosion protection in most applications..It
has its own oxidized layer that protects over time.. I would only be
concerned if I were flying near salt water...
I rebuilt an Ultrastar that had steel rivets and found everything
to be in good order...20 some odd years later...it had been on floats
at one time.. Herb
At 07:41 AM 12/1/2010, you wrote:
>
>I absolutely agree with you on this. Every piece of aluminum in my
>plane has been corrosion proofed with the epoxy paint recommended in
>the poly fiber manual. Its easy to think everything is alright when
>you can't see it.
>
>Rick Lewis
>
>--------
>Rick Lewis
>
>(VW Watercooled Engine)
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321906#321906
>
>
>Attachments:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com//files/pic00005_182.jpg
>
>
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I understand that you can`t see the corrosion (if any) on the wing
spars, without inspection plates. However, I would think if you had
the same amount of corrosion, shown on the gusset in the picture, you
could see it though the fabric. I know my fabric is adhered pretty
tight to most of my gussets. I would also like to know if the
aircraft parts pictured, were outside,exposed to weather most of
their lives or near a salt water environment. Anyone have any
thoughts about that. Lanny N598LF
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Construction |
Herb, No offense, but that's an old wives tale. 6061-T6's silicon alloy base
makes it more resistant to corrosion than a copper based alloy like 2024-T3,
but it doesn't give any magical powers. All aluminum gets an oxide layer the
second it's exposed to oxygen and it does slow corrosion after that, but
inside a sealed wing with a condensation cycle every day, unless of course
you're Kolb is somewhere near Davis-Monthan AFB, provides all that's
necessary for corrosion to continue.
My Firestar came from mid Pennsylvania and now it's in Kansas. Not a lot of
salt water around here.
Rick
On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 7:57 AM, Herb <herbgh@nctc.com> wrote:
>
> 6061-T6 does not need corrosion protection in most applications..It has its
> own oxidized layer that protects over time.. I would only be concerned if I
> were flying near salt water...
>
> I rebuilt an Ultrastar that had steel rivets and found everything to be in
> good order...20 some odd years later...it had been on floats at one time..
> Herb
>
>
> At 07:41 AM 12/1/2010, you wrote:
>
>>
>> I absolutely agree with you on this. Every piece of aluminum in my plane
>> has been corrosion proofed with the epoxy paint recommended in the poly
>> fiber manual. Its easy to think everything is alright when you can't see
>> it.
>>
>> Rick Lewis
>>
>> --------
>> Rick Lewis
>>
>> (VW Watercooled Engine)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321906#321906
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Attachments:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/pic00005_182.jpg
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Kolb Mk IIIC
582 Gray head
4.00 C gearbox
3 blade WD
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable
to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
Message 6
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Lanny, The aircraft came from the middle region of Pennsylvania and has been
in Kansas the last four years. The pictures were what I found when I took
off the covering after I found that it had been done wrong, i.e. no
PolySpray for UV protection and the cloth failed the 50 lb. test. No, even
with no PolySpray silver coat, and no PolyBrush evident except where the
tapes were applied, the White PolyTone hid even the rusted rivet heads. If I
could have seen it through the cloth I would not have bought the aircraft.
Rick
On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 8:05 AM, Lanny Fetterman <donaho1@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> I understand that you can`t see the corrosion (if any) on the wing spars,
> without inspection plates. However, I would think if you had the same amount
> of corrosion, shown on the gusset in the picture, you could see it though
> the fabric. I know my fabric is adhered pretty tight to most of my gussets.
> I would also like to know if the aircraft parts pictured, were
> outside,exposed to weather most of their lives or near a salt water
> environment. Anyone have any thoughts about that. Lanny N598LF
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Kolb Mk IIIC
582 Gray head
4.00 C gearbox
3 blade WD
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable
to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Kolb Firestar Fuel consumption |
In the range of 15-18 mpg with no winds for a 2-stroke Firestar depending upon
how hard you push it.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321921#321921
Message 8
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|
middle region of Pennsylvania
Rick, Jeesh, that`s where I live! Say it ain`t so! :-( Lanny N598LF
Message 9
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|
It may have been stored outside under a tarp. The tarp can hold moisture in working
on the metal 24/7.
Ralph
--------
Ralph B
Original Firestar 447
N91493 E-AB
1000 hours
23 years flying it
Kolbra 912UL
N20386
2 years flying it
120 hrs
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321930#321930
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Subject: | Re: Kolb Firestar Fuel consumption |
I use cruise RPM of 6000 and always use 4 gal per hour for my fuel
consumption....have not run out of fuel yet....in rough air I slow it down, makes
the ride more enjoyable and less stress on the plane.....Jim Swan
Note: have put the plane away for the winter, was going to fly it on good
days but had change of plans, looks like I may have them put me in a
replacement knee this winter..
Do not archive
FIRESTAR ll 503 Michigan jswan
GPS FOR MY RUNWAY N 42 deg 28.581 W084deg 44.825
ph. 517-663-8488
Message 11
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Pretty much my point, Ralph. What's the difference to the aluminum if it's a
tarp or the polyester covering?
Rick
On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 10:51 AM, Ralph B <rstar447@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It may have been stored outside under a tarp. The tarp can hold moisture in
> working on the metal 24/7.
>
> Ralph
>
> --------
> Ralph B
> Original Firestar 447
> N91493 E-AB
> 1000 hours
> 23 years flying it
> Kolbra 912UL
> N20386
> 2 years flying it
> 120 hrs
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321930#321930
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Kolb Mk IIIC
582 Gray head
4.00 C gearbox
3 blade WD
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable
to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Construction |
At 10:22 AM 12/1/2010, Richard Girard wrote:
>Herb, No offense, but that's an old wives tale. 6061-T6's silicon alloy
>base makes it more resistant to corrosion than a copper based alloy like
>2024-T3, but it doesn't give any magical powers. All aluminum gets an
>oxide layer the second it's exposed to oxygen and it does slow corrosion
>after that, but inside a sealed wing with a condensation cycle every day,
>unless of course you're Kolb is somewhere near Davis-Monthan AFB, provides
>all that's necessary for corrosion to continue.
>My Firestar came from mid Pennsylvania and now it's in Kansas. Not a lot
>of salt water around here.
Still, that seemed like _really_ bad corrosion! I have what's left of a
project that started out as an ultralight in 1980, then a trailer some
years later, that's sat outside my house for 23 years, laying on the
ground, getting rained on. All 6061 tubing and AN bolts; it's still
nowhere near as bad as that.
-Dana
--
Beam me up, Scotty, it ate my phaser.
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Construction |
My other point was that I have rebuilt an Ultrastar and a
MkIII ...91 MkIII and an older Us. No Corrosion...Herb
At 09:22 AM 12/1/2010, you wrote:
>Herb, No offense, but that's an old wives tale. 6061-T6's silicon
>alloy base makes it more resistant to corrosion than a copper based
>alloy like 2024-T3, but it doesn't give any magical powers. All
>aluminum gets an oxide layer the second it's exposed to oxygen and
>it does slow corrosion after that, but inside a sealed wing with a
>condensation cycle every day, unless of course you're Kolb is
>somewhere near Davis-Monthan AFB, provides all that's necessary for
>corrosion to continue.
>My Firestar came from mid Pennsylvania and now it's in Kansas. Not a
>lot of salt water around here.
>
>Rick
>
>On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 7:57 AM, Herb
><<mailto:herbgh@nctc.com>herbgh@nctc.com> wrote:
><<mailto:herbgh@nctc.com>herbgh@nctc.com>
>
>6061-T6 does not need corrosion protection in most applications..It
>has its own oxidized layer that protects over time.. I would only
>be concerned if I were flying near salt water...
>
> I rebuilt an Ultrastar that had steel rivets and found everything
> to be in good order...20 some odd years later...it had been on
> floats at one time.. Herb
>
>
>At 07:41 AM 12/1/2010, you wrote:
><<mailto:cktman@hughes.net>cktman@hughes.net>
>
>I absolutely agree with you on this. Every piece of aluminum in my
>plane has been corrosion proofed with the epoxy paint recommended in
>the poly fiber manual. Its easy to think everything is alright when
>you can't see it.
>
>Rick Lewis
>
>--------
>Rick Lewis
>
>(VW Watercooled Engine)
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
><http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321906#321906>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321906#321906
>
>
>Attachments:
>
><http://forums.matronics.com//files/pic00005_182.jpg>http://forums.matronics.com//files/pic00005_182.jpg
>
>
>==========
>om" target="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>le, List Admin.
>==========
>arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
>==========
>http://forums.matronics.com
>==========
>
>
>--
>Zulu Delta
>Kolb Mk IIIC
>582 Gray head
>4.00 C gearbox
>3 blade WD
>Thanks, Homer GBYM
>
>It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to
>be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
> - G.K. Chesterton
>
>
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Construction |
Rick,
What is the procedure you used for corrosion proofing the inside of the aluminum
tubing used on a Kolb?
Gene
On Dec 1, 2010, at 8:41 AM, Rick Lewis wrote:
>
> I absolutely agree with you on this. Every piece of aluminum in my plane has
been corrosion proofed with the epoxy paint recommended in the poly fiber manual.
Its easy to think everything is alright when you can't see it.
>
> Rick Lewis
>
> --------
> Rick Lewis
>
> (VW Watercooled Engine)
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321906#321906
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/pic00005_182.jpg
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 15
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Subject: | Kolb Firestar II for sale in Florida. |
Hey all, just figured id post this up here.
Its located in west palm beach, details in the ad.
It has been a joy to fly.
Thanks!
http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_496085_KOLB+FIRESTAR+II.html
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321955#321955
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/1_332.jpg
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Subject: | Re: Construction |
What is the procedure you used for corrosion proofing the inside of the
aluminum tubing used on a Kolb?
Gene
Gang:
Back in the old days, Kolb used carbon steel rivets with carbon steel
mandrels. They loved to rust.
I built my Ultrastar with carbon rivets and learned soon how quickly they
developed rust.
When I built my FS, I got Little Mike, Old Kolb Part Man, to get me SS pop
rivets to build the FS Kit. They worked much better, but they still used
carbon steel mandrels. I used to put a blob of Stitts 2 part expoxy on the
heads, but could do nothing with the tails of the rivets. However, this has
never been a problem. I am flying a MKIII I built in 1991, and has been
flying since 1992. That's a lot of hanger time, and a lot of time out under
the stars and rain/dew when I am flying overnight or longer cross country
flights.
I haven't had a problem with corrosion. My understanding was most aircraft
aluminum is "alclad". That is a thin coat of pure aluminum. If you get
aluminum that is not "alclad", it is more prone to corrode.
Based on the photos Rick G sent to the List of his Kolb project he picked up
in PA, I would have left it right where I found it. Never seen anything in
the junk pile out side that looked that bad, except when rodents peed on the
aluminum.
Rodent urine is highly corrosive, and they love Kolbs, especially the
tailboom. Occasionally I shoot some anticorrosion spray into my tailboom to
counteract rodent urine and water that gets in there from condensation, and
also from occasionally washing the airplane.
I am more concerned with the 4130 chromoly tubing. I have used tube seal in
all three Kolbs I have built.
I do have drain holes on wings, ailerons, horizontal stabilizers, elevators,
upper and lower vertical stabilizers, and rudder. Don't know if they do
more harm than good. They let out moisture, but allow dirt/mud daubers to
come inside. I had some corrosion in the trailing edge tube of the left
aileron when I rebuilt it in 2000. Undoubtedly, they have a lot of acid in
their nests and larvae.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 17
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Subject: | Re: Kolb Firestar Fuel consumption |
In the range of 15-18 mpg with no winds for a 2-stroke Firestar depending
upon how hard you push it.
--------
Thom Riddle
Thom R/Gang:
How does the above convert to GPH?
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 18
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Subject: | Adding additional fuel tanks =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=93?= Jump Seat |
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=93?= FS-2
Dear Kolbers,
To enable me to have longers XCs with out a fuel stop , I am planning to add two
- Six gallon tanks to the rear of the FS-2 and move the existing two - five
gallon tanks tanks to the jump seat. This will give me a total fuel capacity
of 22 gallons. I have never carried a rear passenger and I weigh in at 195 pounds
and have a Rotax -503. I surely plan to do Weights and Balance for the additional
24 pounds of fuel weight in the rear and 72 pounds fuel weight on the
jump seat.
I wanted to check and run it through the Kolb list whom I consider the list comprising
of the Oracles to know if any of you have flown a passenger in the jump
seat in a FS-2 and what are the changes that I should anticipate in handling
of the airplane by adding the additional weight.
Thanks much for your inputs in advance!
Mahesh
FS-2, Ashland, OR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321959#321959
Message 19
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Subject: | Re: Kolb Firestar Fuel consumption |
Depends upon how fast you are going. He was asking about TRIP PLANNING so I figured
I'd give a number that would give some idea of how FAR he might get on a
gallon. He did not ask about endurance which is what GPH tells us.
In any case, as you know, there are too many variables to give precise numbers
for any of this.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321962#321962
Message 20
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Subject: | Re: Kolb Firestar Fuel consumption |
I use cruise RPM of 6000 and always use 4 gal per hour for my fuel
consumption....have not run out of fuel yet....in rough air I slow it down,
makes the ride more enjoyable and less stress on the plane.....Jim Swan
Note: have put the plane away for the winter, was going to fly it on good
days but had change of plans, looks like I may have them put me in a
replacement knee this winter..
jswan
Jim S/Gang:
Always glad to see Jim posting to the Kolb List.
I am going to make a special effort to fly to Michigan this coming year. I
have not been up that way since I met John Williamson St Ignace Airport,
Michigan, in 2003, on our way to Oshkosh.
It was on that 2003 flight I flew over Rick N's old house and airstrip, but
alas, no one was home. That night I camped out on Snuffy Smith's airstrip a
couple hundred miles NE, I think. Alas again. Snuffy was not home either.
The next night I spent in Gaylord, MI, with my Army Instructor Pilot that
soloed me in the TH-55 helicopter at 10.0 hours, in 1968. This young CW2
was my hero.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 21
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Subject: | Re: Kolb Firestar Fuel consumption |
Depends upon how fast you are going. He was asking about TRIP PLANNING so I
figured I'd give a number that would give some idea of how FAR he might get
on a gallon. He did not ask about endurance which is what GPH tells us.
In any case, as you know, there are too many variables to give precise
numbers for any of this.
--------
Thom Riddle
Thom R/Gang:
MPG in an airplane means nothing. Works good on the ground though.
GPH and airspeed based on current winds gives me how far I can fly.
The air is seldom static.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 22
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Subject: | Re: Construction |
John
The only alclad aluminum that I know is 2024...It is considered to
be a primary aircraft metal . .the core metal contains a fair amount
of copper..The trick it to lay a pure sheet of aluminum over both
sides of the ingot before it goes down the hot roll mill.. this bonds
a very thin layer to the core metal...
Guys with unpainted GA planes who like to polish will eventually
wear the soft cladding of aluminum through... then it is time to paint...Herb
6061 is a high Maganese/Magnesium alloy...from memory..The outer
surface corrodes into aluminum oxide which is hard and offers
corrosion protection from the normal elements...meaning ,,,no mouse
pee or salt water to name a couple..
At 03:11 PM 12/1/2010, you wrote:
>
>
> What is the procedure you used for corrosion proofing the inside of the
>aluminum tubing used on a Kolb?
>
>Gene
>
>
>Gang:
>
>Back in the old days, Kolb used carbon steel rivets with carbon steel
>mandrels. They loved to rust.
>
>I built my Ultrastar with carbon rivets and learned soon how quickly they
>developed rust.
>
>When I built my FS, I got Little Mike, Old Kolb Part Man, to get me SS pop
>rivets to build the FS Kit. They worked much better, but they still used
>carbon steel mandrels. I used to put a blob of Stitts 2 part expoxy on the
>heads, but could do nothing with the tails of the rivets. However, this has
>never been a problem. I am flying a MKIII I built in 1991, and has been
>flying since 1992. That's a lot of hanger time, and a lot of time out under
>the stars and rain/dew when I am flying overnight or longer cross country
>flights.
>
>I haven't had a problem with corrosion. My understanding was most aircraft
>aluminum is "alclad". That is a thin coat of pure aluminum. If you get
>aluminum that is not "alclad", it is more prone to corrode.
>
>Based on the photos Rick G sent to the List of his Kolb project he picked up
>in PA, I would have left it right where I found it. Never seen anything in
>the junk pile out side that looked that bad, except when rodents peed on the
>aluminum.
>
>Rodent urine is highly corrosive, and they love Kolbs, especially the
>tailboom. Occasionally I shoot some anticorrosion spray into my tailboom to
>counteract rodent urine and water that gets in there from condensation, and
>also from occasionally washing the airplane.
>
>I am more concerned with the 4130 chromoly tubing. I have used tube seal in
>all three Kolbs I have built.
>
>I do have drain holes on wings, ailerons, horizontal stabilizers, elevators,
>upper and lower vertical stabilizers, and rudder. Don't know if they do
>more harm than good. They let out moisture, but allow dirt/mud daubers to
>come inside. I had some corrosion in the trailing edge tube of the left
>aileron when I rebuilt it in 2000. Undoubtedly, they have a lot of acid in
>their nests and larvae.
>
>john h
>mkIII
>Titus, Alabama
>
>
Message 23
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Subject: | Re: Slingshot thrust line/angle/HKS |
Tom,
That sounds like pretty good performance. I only get a climb rate of
about 6-700
fpm on the Firestar, but that's enough for me to safely fly around here
in the
flatlands.
Do you have the 3.47 - 1 gearbox or the 2.58?
--------
Jimmy Young
Missouri City, TX
Kolb FS II/HKS 700
Jim,
The motor came with the 3.47 gearbox, but wish it had the 2.58, If I was
starting fresh. I believe the 2.58 with the gearbox down and a 66" 3
blade Warp on a Slingshot would work the best all things considered. I
reserve the right to take that back after more testing, however.
The Slingshot is a neat little plane. Anyone interested in owning one
should understand that there are a few differences between it and a FS
or MK3.
First is the stall speed, in the high 40's, but still very Kolb like.
The glide rate(or lack thereof) is something to get used to as well. It
indicated around 700FPM descent at VY, but feels like even more. Also
with the gear forward stance, it has close to 100lbs on the tail wheel,
which makes it more of a hand full on the ground, and could easily make
anyone look like a fool who does not pay attention on blacktop.
These differences I've mentioned are not negative to me, just the
opposite. I just wanted to let people know. I'm glad it was not my first
Kolb.
Tom McCarthy
Fort Atkinson, WI
N514 TM Zenith 601HD
N414 TM Kolb Firestar
N863 GB Kolb Slingshot
Message 24
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Subject: | Re: Construction |
The only alclad aluminum that I know is 2024...It is considered to
be a primary aircraft metal . .the core metal contains a fair amount
of copper..The trick it to lay a pure sheet of aluminum over both
sides of the ingot before it goes down the hot roll mill.. this bonds
a very thin layer to the core metal...
Guys with unpainted GA planes who like to polish will eventually
wear the soft cladding of aluminum through... then it is time to
paint...Herb
6061 is a high Maganese/Magnesium alloy...from memory..The outer
surface corrodes into aluminum oxide which is hard and offers
corrosion protection from the normal elements...meaning ,,,no mouse
pee or salt water to name a couple..
Herb/Gang:
Thanks for correcting me. I remember reading about alclad somewhere many
years ago.
I've got old 6061 tubing hanging in the shop that has turned dark and old
looking, but when inspected, it is like surface dirt, extremely thin layer.
I don't hesitate to use this old tubing when necessary.
For items that should not be painted, like aluminum engine mounts on Kolbs
with 912's, I use alodine after giving them a phosphoric acid bath. This
works good. I learned from my first set of aluminum 912 engine mounts that
if primed and painted, where the engine case makes contact with the aluminum
mount, vibration and stress will soon wear away the primer and paint,
leaving four loose engine mount bolts. Of course one could prime and paint
the mounts, but mask off the areas where the engine case makes contact with
the mounts.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 25
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Subject: | Re: Kolb Firestar Fuel consumption |
We can argue this all day long if you want, John. But it IS meaningful to me.
If I know the MPG in static air and know my headwind or tailwind component I can
easily determine in my head how far over the ground I can go. With GPH all we
know is how long we can stay in the air. That plus knowing your ground speed
and a little bit of math we can come up with the same result. Neither is meaningless.
Just a different way to approach it.
Plus it also gives you a relative efficiency number for comparing aircraft, if
anyone cares to do that. In static air my normal cruise speed of 85 mph and 3.75
gph gives me about 22.5 mpg. Your MkIII at 85 mph and 5 GPH yields about 17
MPG in static air.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321969#321969
Message 26
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Subject: | Re: Construction |
Herb, quite right. If you go to buy an old airplane check to see how long it has
been painted. Those polished antiques may look dandy
but all they are doing is harm. Better to paint it from the get go or leave the
surface to chalk.
Even then I have heard about older airplanes that looked great on the surface but
you could push a pencil through the skin. Mostly
the result of intergranular reaction due to dissimilar metals. A friend who refueled
Air America gooneys in VN said he had to be careful
to not put a foot through the wing skin. :(
BB
On 1, Dec 2010, at 4:42 PM, Herb wrote:
>
>
> John
>
> The only alclad aluminum that I know is 2024...It is considered to be a primary
aircraft metal . .the core metal contains a fair amount of copper..The trick
it to lay a pure sheet of aluminum over both sides of the ingot before it goes
down the hot roll mill.. this bonds a very thin layer to the core metal...
>
> Guys with unpainted GA planes who like to polish will eventually wear the soft
cladding of aluminum through... then it is time to paint...Herb
>
>
> 6061 is a high Maganese/Magnesium alloy...from memory..The outer surface corrodes
into aluminum oxide which is hard and offers corrosion protection from the
normal elements...meaning ,,,no mouse pee or salt water to name a couple..
>
> At 03:11 PM 12/1/2010, you wrote:
>>
>>
>> What is the procedure you used for corrosion proofing the inside of the
>> aluminum tubing used on a Kolb?
>>
>> Gene
>>
>>
>> Gang:
>>
>> Back in the old days, Kolb used carbon steel rivets with carbon steel
>> mandrels. They loved to rust.
>>
>> I built my Ultrastar with carbon rivets and learned soon how quickly they
>> developed rust.
>>
>> When I built my FS, I got Little Mike, Old Kolb Part Man, to get me SS pop
>> rivets to build the FS Kit. They worked much better, but they still used
>> carbon steel mandrels. I used to put a blob of Stitts 2 part expoxy on the
>> heads, but could do nothing with the tails of the rivets. However, this has
>> never been a problem. I am flying a MKIII I built in 1991, and has been
>> flying since 1992. That's a lot of hanger time, and a lot of time out under
>> the stars and rain/dew when I am flying overnight or longer cross country
>> flights.
>>
>> I haven't had a problem with corrosion. My understanding was most aircraft
>> aluminum is "alclad". That is a thin coat of pure aluminum. If you get
>> aluminum that is not "alclad", it is more prone to corrode.
>>
>> Based on the photos Rick G sent to the List of his Kolb project he picked up
>> in PA, I would have left it right where I found it. Never seen anything in
>> the junk pile out side that looked that bad, except when rodents peed on the
>> aluminum.
>>
>> Rodent urine is highly corrosive, and they love Kolbs, especially the
>> tailboom. Occasionally I shoot some anticorrosion spray into my tailboom to
>> counteract rodent urine and water that gets in there from condensation, and
>> also from occasionally washing the airplane.
>>
>> I am more concerned with the 4130 chromoly tubing. I have used tube seal in
>> all three Kolbs I have built.
>>
>> I do have drain holes on wings, ailerons, horizontal stabilizers, elevators,
>> upper and lower vertical stabilizers, and rudder. Don't know if they do
>> more harm than good. They let out moisture, but allow dirt/mud daubers to
>> come inside. I had some corrosion in the trailing edge tube of the left
>> aileron when I rebuilt it in 2000. Undoubtedly, they have a lot of acid in
>> their nests and larvae.
>>
>> john h
>> mkIII
>> Titus, Alabama
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 27
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Subject: | Re: Kolb Firestar Fuel consumption |
We can argue this all day long if you want, John. But it IS meaningful to
me.
If I know the MPG in static air and know my headwind or tailwind component I
can easily determine in my head how far over the ground I can go. With GPH
all we know is how long we can stay in the air. That plus knowing your
ground speed and a little bit of math we can come up with the same result.
Neither is meaningless. Just a different way to approach it.
Plus it also gives you a relative efficiency number for comparing aircraft,
if anyone cares to do that. In static air my normal cruise speed of 85 mph
and 3.75 gph gives me about 22.5 mpg. Your MkIII at 85 mph and 5 GPH yields
about 17 MPG in static air.
--------
Thom Riddle
Thom R/Gang:
I am sure your system of mpg works for you, but not for me. I never heard
the term mpg in military or civilian flight training I have attended. It
has been a long time since I have been to school, so maybe current aviation
is not using GPH, but MPG now.
Let me know when you find some static air. ;-)
Most of us are flying with GPS now days. Mine is an old Garmin 196, but it
does give me constantly updated info like "time to my next waypoint", etc.
Much better system than the old E6B. I don't need to know wind speed or
direction, at my altitude, and where I am located. Knowing my accurate fuel
burn, I know immediately how much fuel and time it will take me to get to my
next.
MPG is for automobiles. GPH is for aircraft.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 28
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Subject: | Re: Construction |
For those interested in painting the inside of tubes:
Years ago we built a float FS that was intended to be flown on the
Chesapeake where the water is brackish - somewhat salty.
We have always urged strong caution in flying Kolbs on salt water because
there are so many dissimilar metals. John Pitre in HI flew a TS for many
years but he went to great pains to protect and to rinse thoroughly with
fresh water after flying.
Getting back to the FS on the Chesapeake: We made a shallow pan and soaked
the ribs in lacquer thinner and swished it around to remove as much of the
oily coating on - and in - the tubing.
Then we immersed the ribs in a shallow pan of epoxy chromate primer and hung
them up to drip dry. For the spars we cleaned them inside and out with
lacquer thinner and then poured epoxy chromate paint thru them with the ends
capped off with plastic. The spars were then rotated and tilted to get the
inside thoroughly covered.
Then when the wing was assembled we sprayed epoxy chromate paint to paint
all the rivets and any missed areas. The tail surfaces, etc got even better
treatment because the tail typically receives spray from the floats.
I don't know how much of that was necessary, but we thought we were being as
thorough as we could.
I lost track of that FS, so ultimately I do not know how successful or
unsuccessful the preventative measures were.
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hauck
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Construction
What is the procedure you used for corrosion proofing the inside of the
aluminum tubing used on a Kolb?
Gene
Gang:
Back in the old days, Kolb used carbon steel rivets with carbon steel
mandrels. They loved to rust.
I built my Ultrastar with carbon rivets and learned soon how quickly they
developed rust.
When I built my FS, I got Little Mike, Old Kolb Part Man, to get me SS pop
rivets to build the FS Kit. They worked much better, but they still used
carbon steel mandrels. I used to put a blob of Stitts 2 part expoxy on the
heads, but could do nothing with the tails of the rivets. However, this has
never been a problem. I am flying a MKIII I built in 1991, and has been
flying since 1992. That's a lot of hanger time, and a lot of time out under
the stars and rain/dew when I am flying overnight or longer cross country
flights.
I haven't had a problem with corrosion. My understanding was most aircraft
aluminum is "alclad". That is a thin coat of pure aluminum. If you get
aluminum that is not "alclad", it is more prone to corrode.
Based on the photos Rick G sent to the List of his Kolb project he picked up
in PA, I would have left it right where I found it. Never seen anything in
the junk pile out side that looked that bad, except when rodents peed on the
aluminum.
Rodent urine is highly corrosive, and they love Kolbs, especially the
tailboom. Occasionally I shoot some anticorrosion spray into my tailboom to
counteract rodent urine and water that gets in there from condensation, and
also from occasionally washing the airplane.
I am more concerned with the 4130 chromoly tubing. I have used tube seal in
all three Kolbs I have built.
I do have drain holes on wings, ailerons, horizontal stabilizers, elevators,
upper and lower vertical stabilizers, and rudder. Don't know if they do
more harm than good. They let out moisture, but allow dirt/mud daubers to
come inside. I had some corrosion in the trailing edge tube of the left
aileron when I rebuilt it in 2000. Undoubtedly, they have a lot of acid in
their nests and larvae.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 29
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Subject: | Replacing UltraStart Red battery |
Kolbers,
I was about to purchase the second replacement battery for the FireFly. And
then I thought I would look at finding something different that may not be
so expensive. I stripped off the adhesive label and found that the battery
was made by GS Battery, a Portalac PX12050SHR. I went to a local battery
shop and purchase an equivalent battery and modified it to replace the
UltraStart Red. The dollar savings were substantial.
If you would like to see how it was done, check out:
http://jackbhart.com/firefly/firefly160.html
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 30
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Subject: | Re: Adding additional fuel tanks =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=93?= Jump |
Seat =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=93?= FS-2
I think your weight and balance would probably come out better with the six gallon
tanks where the jump seat used to be, and then put one five gallon tank just
behind them where the original front tank was, that will give you 17 gallons,
and with a 503, that is a lot of fuel.
Here's how the two six gallon tanks fit in N582EF. No current pictures, can get
some if you want. (Tomorrow)
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=322018#322018
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