---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 12/01/10: 30 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:45 AM - Kolb Firestar Fuel consumption (Lanny Fetterman) 2. 05:45 AM - Re: Construction (Rick Lewis) 3. 06:00 AM - Re: Re: Construction (Herb) 4. 06:08 AM - Corrosion (Lanny Fetterman) 5. 07:25 AM - Re: Re: Construction (Richard Girard) 6. 07:34 AM - Re: Corrosion (Richard Girard) 7. 07:40 AM - Re: Kolb Firestar Fuel consumption (Thom Riddle) 8. 07:57 AM - Corrosion (Lanny Fetterman) 9. 08:53 AM - Re: Corrosion (Ralph B) 10. 09:26 AM - Re: Kolb Firestar Fuel consumption (Arksey@aol.com) 11. 09:41 AM - Re: Re: Corrosion (Richard Girard) 12. 10:27 AM - Re: Re: Construction (Dana Hague) 13. 11:44 AM - Re: Re: Construction (Herb) 14. 12:09 PM - Re: Re: Construction (Eugene Zimmerman) 15. 12:38 PM - Kolb Firestar II for sale in Florida. (gotime242) 16. 01:14 PM - Re: Re: Construction (John Hauck) 17. 01:28 PM - Re: Re: Kolb Firestar Fuel consumption (John Hauck) 18. 01:31 PM - Adding additional fuel tanks =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=93?= Jump Seat =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=93?= FS-2 (miyer2u) 19. 01:37 PM - Re: Kolb Firestar Fuel consumption (Thom Riddle) 20. 01:41 PM - Re: Kolb Firestar Fuel consumption (John Hauck) 21. 01:45 PM - Re: Re: Kolb Firestar Fuel consumption (John Hauck) 22. 01:45 PM - Re: Re: Construction (Herb) 23. 01:51 PM - Re: Slingshot thrust line/angle/HKS (McCarthy Tom) 24. 01:58 PM - Re: Re: Construction (John Hauck) 25. 02:04 PM - Re: Kolb Firestar Fuel consumption (Thom Riddle) 26. 02:10 PM - Re: Re: Construction (robert bean) 27. 02:24 PM - Re: Re: Kolb Firestar Fuel consumption (John Hauck) 28. 04:30 PM - Re: Re: Construction (Dennis Souder) 29. 05:09 PM - Replacing UltraStart Red battery (Jack B. Hart) 30. 08:02 PM - Re: Adding additional fuel tanks =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=93?= Jump Seat =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=93?= FS-2 (Richard Pike) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:45:16 AM PST US From: Lanny Fetterman Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb Firestar Fuel consumption Dennis, I burn between 3 and 3 1/2 gal per hour. My cruise RPM is 5600 to 5800. Lanny FSII 503 DCDI ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:45:01 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Construction From: "Rick Lewis" I absolutely agree with you on this. Every piece of aluminum in my plane has been corrosion proofed with the epoxy paint recommended in the poly fiber manual. Its easy to think everything is alright when you can't see it. Rick Lewis -------- Rick Lewis (VW Watercooled Engine) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321906#321906 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/pic00005_182.jpg ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:00:48 AM PST US From: Herb Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Construction 6061-T6 does not need corrosion protection in most applications..It has its own oxidized layer that protects over time.. I would only be concerned if I were flying near salt water... I rebuilt an Ultrastar that had steel rivets and found everything to be in good order...20 some odd years later...it had been on floats at one time.. Herb At 07:41 AM 12/1/2010, you wrote: > >I absolutely agree with you on this. Every piece of aluminum in my >plane has been corrosion proofed with the epoxy paint recommended in >the poly fiber manual. Its easy to think everything is alright when >you can't see it. > >Rick Lewis > >-------- >Rick Lewis > >(VW Watercooled Engine) > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321906#321906 > > >Attachments: > >http://forums.matronics.com//files/pic00005_182.jpg > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:08:30 AM PST US From: Lanny Fetterman Subject: Kolb-List: Corrosion I understand that you can`t see the corrosion (if any) on the wing spars, without inspection plates. However, I would think if you had the same amount of corrosion, shown on the gusset in the picture, you could see it though the fabric. I know my fabric is adhered pretty tight to most of my gussets. I would also like to know if the aircraft parts pictured, were outside,exposed to weather most of their lives or near a salt water environment. Anyone have any thoughts about that. Lanny N598LF ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:25:30 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Construction From: Richard Girard Herb, No offense, but that's an old wives tale. 6061-T6's silicon alloy base makes it more resistant to corrosion than a copper based alloy like 2024-T3, but it doesn't give any magical powers. All aluminum gets an oxide layer the second it's exposed to oxygen and it does slow corrosion after that, but inside a sealed wing with a condensation cycle every day, unless of course you're Kolb is somewhere near Davis-Monthan AFB, provides all that's necessary for corrosion to continue. My Firestar came from mid Pennsylvania and now it's in Kansas. Not a lot of salt water around here. Rick On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 7:57 AM, Herb wrote: > > 6061-T6 does not need corrosion protection in most applications..It has its > own oxidized layer that protects over time.. I would only be concerned if I > were flying near salt water... > > I rebuilt an Ultrastar that had steel rivets and found everything to be in > good order...20 some odd years later...it had been on floats at one time.. > Herb > > > At 07:41 AM 12/1/2010, you wrote: > >> >> I absolutely agree with you on this. Every piece of aluminum in my plane >> has been corrosion proofed with the epoxy paint recommended in the poly >> fiber manual. Its easy to think everything is alright when you can't see >> it. >> >> Rick Lewis >> >> -------- >> Rick Lewis >> >> (VW Watercooled Engine) >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321906#321906 >> >> >> >> >> Attachments: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com//files/pic00005_182.jpg >> >> >> >> >> > > -- Zulu Delta Kolb Mk IIIC 582 Gray head 4.00 C gearbox 3 blade WD Thanks, Homer GBYM It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong. - G.K. Chesterton ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:34:13 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Corrosion From: Richard Girard Lanny, The aircraft came from the middle region of Pennsylvania and has been in Kansas the last four years. The pictures were what I found when I took off the covering after I found that it had been done wrong, i.e. no PolySpray for UV protection and the cloth failed the 50 lb. test. No, even with no PolySpray silver coat, and no PolyBrush evident except where the tapes were applied, the White PolyTone hid even the rusted rivet heads. If I could have seen it through the cloth I would not have bought the aircraft. Rick On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 8:05 AM, Lanny Fetterman wrote: > > I understand that you can`t see the corrosion (if any) on the wing spars, > without inspection plates. However, I would think if you had the same amount > of corrosion, shown on the gusset in the picture, you could see it though > the fabric. I know my fabric is adhered pretty tight to most of my gussets. > I would also like to know if the aircraft parts pictured, were > outside,exposed to weather most of their lives or near a salt water > environment. Anyone have any thoughts about that. Lanny N598LF > > -- Zulu Delta Kolb Mk IIIC 582 Gray head 4.00 C gearbox 3 blade WD Thanks, Homer GBYM It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong. - G.K. Chesterton ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:40:51 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb Firestar Fuel consumption From: "Thom Riddle" In the range of 15-18 mpg with no winds for a 2-stroke Firestar depending upon how hard you push it. -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY (9G0) Kolb Slingshot SS-021 Jabiru 2200A #1574 Tennessee Prop 64x32 Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts. Daniel Patrick Moynihan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321921#321921 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:57:03 AM PST US From: Lanny Fetterman Subject: Kolb-List: Corrosion middle region of Pennsylvania Rick, Jeesh, that`s where I live! Say it ain`t so! :-( Lanny N598LF ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:53:27 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Corrosion From: "Ralph B" It may have been stored outside under a tarp. The tarp can hold moisture in working on the metal 24/7. Ralph -------- Ralph B Original Firestar 447 N91493 E-AB 1000 hours 23 years flying it Kolbra 912UL N20386 2 years flying it 120 hrs Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321930#321930 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:26:47 AM PST US From: Arksey@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb Firestar Fuel consumption I use cruise RPM of 6000 and always use 4 gal per hour for my fuel consumption....have not run out of fuel yet....in rough air I slow it down, makes the ride more enjoyable and less stress on the plane.....Jim Swan Note: have put the plane away for the winter, was going to fly it on good days but had change of plans, looks like I may have them put me in a replacement knee this winter.. Do not archive FIRESTAR ll 503 Michigan jswan GPS FOR MY RUNWAY N 42 deg 28.581 W084deg 44.825 ph. 517-663-8488 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:41:30 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Corrosion From: Richard Girard Pretty much my point, Ralph. What's the difference to the aluminum if it's a tarp or the polyester covering? Rick On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 10:51 AM, Ralph B wrote: > > It may have been stored outside under a tarp. The tarp can hold moisture in > working on the metal 24/7. > > Ralph > > -------- > Ralph B > Original Firestar 447 > N91493 E-AB > 1000 hours > 23 years flying it > Kolbra 912UL > N20386 > 2 years flying it > 120 hrs > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321930#321930 > > -- Zulu Delta Kolb Mk IIIC 582 Gray head 4.00 C gearbox 3 blade WD Thanks, Homer GBYM It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong. - G.K. Chesterton ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:27:28 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Construction At 10:22 AM 12/1/2010, Richard Girard wrote: >Herb, No offense, but that's an old wives tale. 6061-T6's silicon alloy >base makes it more resistant to corrosion than a copper based alloy like >2024-T3, but it doesn't give any magical powers. All aluminum gets an >oxide layer the second it's exposed to oxygen and it does slow corrosion >after that, but inside a sealed wing with a condensation cycle every day, >unless of course you're Kolb is somewhere near Davis-Monthan AFB, provides >all that's necessary for corrosion to continue. >My Firestar came from mid Pennsylvania and now it's in Kansas. Not a lot >of salt water around here. Still, that seemed like _really_ bad corrosion! I have what's left of a project that started out as an ultralight in 1980, then a trailer some years later, that's sat outside my house for 23 years, laying on the ground, getting rained on. All 6061 tubing and AN bolts; it's still nowhere near as bad as that. -Dana -- Beam me up, Scotty, it ate my phaser. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:44:52 AM PST US From: Herb Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Construction My other point was that I have rebuilt an Ultrastar and a MkIII ...91 MkIII and an older Us. No Corrosion...Herb At 09:22 AM 12/1/2010, you wrote: >Herb, No offense, but that's an old wives tale. 6061-T6's silicon >alloy base makes it more resistant to corrosion than a copper based >alloy like 2024-T3, but it doesn't give any magical powers. All >aluminum gets an oxide layer the second it's exposed to oxygen and >it does slow corrosion after that, but inside a sealed wing with a >condensation cycle every day, unless of course you're Kolb is >somewhere near Davis-Monthan AFB, provides all that's necessary for >corrosion to continue. >My Firestar came from mid Pennsylvania and now it's in Kansas. Not a >lot of salt water around here. > >Rick > >On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 7:57 AM, Herb ><herbgh@nctc.com> wrote: ><herbgh@nctc.com> > >6061-T6 does not need corrosion protection in most applications..It >has its own oxidized layer that protects over time.. I would only >be concerned if I were flying near salt water... > > I rebuilt an Ultrastar that had steel rivets and found everything > to be in good order...20 some odd years later...it had been on > floats at one time.. Herb > > >At 07:41 AM 12/1/2010, you wrote: ><cktman@hughes.net> > >I absolutely agree with you on this. Every piece of aluminum in my >plane has been corrosion proofed with the epoxy paint recommended in >the poly fiber manual. Its easy to think everything is alright when >you can't see it. > >Rick Lewis > >-------- >Rick Lewis > >(VW Watercooled Engine) > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321906#321906 > > >Attachments: > >http://forums.matronics.com//files/pic00005_182.jpg > > >========== >om" target="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com >ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com >et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com >="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >le, List Admin. >========== >arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List >========== >http://forums.matronics.com >========== > > >-- >Zulu Delta >Kolb Mk IIIC >582 Gray head >4.00 C gearbox >3 blade WD >Thanks, Homer GBYM > >It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to >be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong. > - G.K. Chesterton > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:09:12 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Construction From: Eugene Zimmerman Rick, What is the procedure you used for corrosion proofing the inside of the aluminum tubing used on a Kolb? Gene On Dec 1, 2010, at 8:41 AM, Rick Lewis wrote: > > I absolutely agree with you on this. Every piece of aluminum in my plane has been corrosion proofed with the epoxy paint recommended in the poly fiber manual. Its easy to think everything is alright when you can't see it. > > Rick Lewis > > -------- > Rick Lewis > > (VW Watercooled Engine) > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321906#321906 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/pic00005_182.jpg > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:38:50 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb Firestar II for sale in Florida. From: "gotime242" Hey all, just figured id post this up here. Its located in west palm beach, details in the ad. It has been a joy to fly. Thanks! http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_496085_KOLB+FIRESTAR+II.html Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321955#321955 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/1_332.jpg ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:14:10 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Construction What is the procedure you used for corrosion proofing the inside of the aluminum tubing used on a Kolb? Gene Gang: Back in the old days, Kolb used carbon steel rivets with carbon steel mandrels. They loved to rust. I built my Ultrastar with carbon rivets and learned soon how quickly they developed rust. When I built my FS, I got Little Mike, Old Kolb Part Man, to get me SS pop rivets to build the FS Kit. They worked much better, but they still used carbon steel mandrels. I used to put a blob of Stitts 2 part expoxy on the heads, but could do nothing with the tails of the rivets. However, this has never been a problem. I am flying a MKIII I built in 1991, and has been flying since 1992. That's a lot of hanger time, and a lot of time out under the stars and rain/dew when I am flying overnight or longer cross country flights. I haven't had a problem with corrosion. My understanding was most aircraft aluminum is "alclad". That is a thin coat of pure aluminum. If you get aluminum that is not "alclad", it is more prone to corrode. Based on the photos Rick G sent to the List of his Kolb project he picked up in PA, I would have left it right where I found it. Never seen anything in the junk pile out side that looked that bad, except when rodents peed on the aluminum. Rodent urine is highly corrosive, and they love Kolbs, especially the tailboom. Occasionally I shoot some anticorrosion spray into my tailboom to counteract rodent urine and water that gets in there from condensation, and also from occasionally washing the airplane. I am more concerned with the 4130 chromoly tubing. I have used tube seal in all three Kolbs I have built. I do have drain holes on wings, ailerons, horizontal stabilizers, elevators, upper and lower vertical stabilizers, and rudder. Don't know if they do more harm than good. They let out moisture, but allow dirt/mud daubers to come inside. I had some corrosion in the trailing edge tube of the left aileron when I rebuilt it in 2000. Undoubtedly, they have a lot of acid in their nests and larvae. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:28:03 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb Firestar Fuel consumption In the range of 15-18 mpg with no winds for a 2-stroke Firestar depending upon how hard you push it. -------- Thom Riddle Thom R/Gang: How does the above convert to GPH? john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:31:59 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Adding additional fuel tanks =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=93?= Jump Seat =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=93?= FS-2 From: "miyer2u" Dear Kolbers, To enable me to have longers XCs with out a fuel stop , I am planning to add two - Six gallon tanks to the rear of the FS-2 and move the existing two - five gallon tanks tanks to the jump seat. This will give me a total fuel capacity of 22 gallons. I have never carried a rear passenger and I weigh in at 195 pounds and have a Rotax -503. I surely plan to do Weights and Balance for the additional 24 pounds of fuel weight in the rear and 72 pounds fuel weight on the jump seat. I wanted to check and run it through the Kolb list whom I consider the list comprising of the Oracles to know if any of you have flown a passenger in the jump seat in a FS-2 and what are the changes that I should anticipate in handling of the airplane by adding the additional weight. Thanks much for your inputs in advance! Mahesh FS-2, Ashland, OR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321959#321959 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:37:55 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb Firestar Fuel consumption From: "Thom Riddle" Depends upon how fast you are going. He was asking about TRIP PLANNING so I figured I'd give a number that would give some idea of how FAR he might get on a gallon. He did not ask about endurance which is what GPH tells us. In any case, as you know, there are too many variables to give precise numbers for any of this. -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY (9G0) Kolb Slingshot SS-021 Jabiru 2200A #1574 Tennessee Prop 64x32 Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts. Daniel Patrick Moynihan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321962#321962 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:41:14 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb Firestar Fuel consumption I use cruise RPM of 6000 and always use 4 gal per hour for my fuel consumption....have not run out of fuel yet....in rough air I slow it down, makes the ride more enjoyable and less stress on the plane.....Jim Swan Note: have put the plane away for the winter, was going to fly it on good days but had change of plans, looks like I may have them put me in a replacement knee this winter.. jswan Jim S/Gang: Always glad to see Jim posting to the Kolb List. I am going to make a special effort to fly to Michigan this coming year. I have not been up that way since I met John Williamson St Ignace Airport, Michigan, in 2003, on our way to Oshkosh. It was on that 2003 flight I flew over Rick N's old house and airstrip, but alas, no one was home. That night I camped out on Snuffy Smith's airstrip a couple hundred miles NE, I think. Alas again. Snuffy was not home either. The next night I spent in Gaylord, MI, with my Army Instructor Pilot that soloed me in the TH-55 helicopter at 10.0 hours, in 1968. This young CW2 was my hero. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 01:45:02 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb Firestar Fuel consumption Depends upon how fast you are going. He was asking about TRIP PLANNING so I figured I'd give a number that would give some idea of how FAR he might get on a gallon. He did not ask about endurance which is what GPH tells us. In any case, as you know, there are too many variables to give precise numbers for any of this. -------- Thom Riddle Thom R/Gang: MPG in an airplane means nothing. Works good on the ground though. GPH and airspeed based on current winds gives me how far I can fly. The air is seldom static. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 01:45:02 PM PST US From: Herb Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Construction John The only alclad aluminum that I know is 2024...It is considered to be a primary aircraft metal . .the core metal contains a fair amount of copper..The trick it to lay a pure sheet of aluminum over both sides of the ingot before it goes down the hot roll mill.. this bonds a very thin layer to the core metal... Guys with unpainted GA planes who like to polish will eventually wear the soft cladding of aluminum through... then it is time to paint...Herb 6061 is a high Maganese/Magnesium alloy...from memory..The outer surface corrodes into aluminum oxide which is hard and offers corrosion protection from the normal elements...meaning ,,,no mouse pee or salt water to name a couple.. At 03:11 PM 12/1/2010, you wrote: > > > What is the procedure you used for corrosion proofing the inside of the >aluminum tubing used on a Kolb? > >Gene > > >Gang: > >Back in the old days, Kolb used carbon steel rivets with carbon steel >mandrels. They loved to rust. > >I built my Ultrastar with carbon rivets and learned soon how quickly they >developed rust. > >When I built my FS, I got Little Mike, Old Kolb Part Man, to get me SS pop >rivets to build the FS Kit. They worked much better, but they still used >carbon steel mandrels. I used to put a blob of Stitts 2 part expoxy on the >heads, but could do nothing with the tails of the rivets. However, this has >never been a problem. I am flying a MKIII I built in 1991, and has been >flying since 1992. That's a lot of hanger time, and a lot of time out under >the stars and rain/dew when I am flying overnight or longer cross country >flights. > >I haven't had a problem with corrosion. My understanding was most aircraft >aluminum is "alclad". That is a thin coat of pure aluminum. If you get >aluminum that is not "alclad", it is more prone to corrode. > >Based on the photos Rick G sent to the List of his Kolb project he picked up >in PA, I would have left it right where I found it. Never seen anything in >the junk pile out side that looked that bad, except when rodents peed on the >aluminum. > >Rodent urine is highly corrosive, and they love Kolbs, especially the >tailboom. Occasionally I shoot some anticorrosion spray into my tailboom to >counteract rodent urine and water that gets in there from condensation, and >also from occasionally washing the airplane. > >I am more concerned with the 4130 chromoly tubing. I have used tube seal in >all three Kolbs I have built. > >I do have drain holes on wings, ailerons, horizontal stabilizers, elevators, >upper and lower vertical stabilizers, and rudder. Don't know if they do >more harm than good. They let out moisture, but allow dirt/mud daubers to >come inside. I had some corrosion in the trailing edge tube of the left >aileron when I rebuilt it in 2000. Undoubtedly, they have a lot of acid in >their nests and larvae. > >john h >mkIII >Titus, Alabama > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:51:05 PM PST US From: McCarthy Tom Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Slingshot thrust line/angle/HKS Tom, That sounds like pretty good performance. I only get a climb rate of about 6-700 fpm on the Firestar, but that's enough for me to safely fly around here in the flatlands. Do you have the 3.47 - 1 gearbox or the 2.58? -------- Jimmy Young Missouri City, TX Kolb FS II/HKS 700 Jim, The motor came with the 3.47 gearbox, but wish it had the 2.58, If I was starting fresh. I believe the 2.58 with the gearbox down and a 66" 3 blade Warp on a Slingshot would work the best all things considered. I reserve the right to take that back after more testing, however. The Slingshot is a neat little plane. Anyone interested in owning one should understand that there are a few differences between it and a FS or MK3. First is the stall speed, in the high 40's, but still very Kolb like. The glide rate(or lack thereof) is something to get used to as well. It indicated around 700FPM descent at VY, but feels like even more. Also with the gear forward stance, it has close to 100lbs on the tail wheel, which makes it more of a hand full on the ground, and could easily make anyone look like a fool who does not pay attention on blacktop. These differences I've mentioned are not negative to me, just the opposite. I just wanted to let people know. I'm glad it was not my first Kolb. Tom McCarthy Fort Atkinson, WI N514 TM Zenith 601HD N414 TM Kolb Firestar N863 GB Kolb Slingshot ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:58:40 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Construction The only alclad aluminum that I know is 2024...It is considered to be a primary aircraft metal . .the core metal contains a fair amount of copper..The trick it to lay a pure sheet of aluminum over both sides of the ingot before it goes down the hot roll mill.. this bonds a very thin layer to the core metal... Guys with unpainted GA planes who like to polish will eventually wear the soft cladding of aluminum through... then it is time to paint...Herb 6061 is a high Maganese/Magnesium alloy...from memory..The outer surface corrodes into aluminum oxide which is hard and offers corrosion protection from the normal elements...meaning ,,,no mouse pee or salt water to name a couple.. Herb/Gang: Thanks for correcting me. I remember reading about alclad somewhere many years ago. I've got old 6061 tubing hanging in the shop that has turned dark and old looking, but when inspected, it is like surface dirt, extremely thin layer. I don't hesitate to use this old tubing when necessary. For items that should not be painted, like aluminum engine mounts on Kolbs with 912's, I use alodine after giving them a phosphoric acid bath. This works good. I learned from my first set of aluminum 912 engine mounts that if primed and painted, where the engine case makes contact with the aluminum mount, vibration and stress will soon wear away the primer and paint, leaving four loose engine mount bolts. Of course one could prime and paint the mounts, but mask off the areas where the engine case makes contact with the mounts. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:04:01 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb Firestar Fuel consumption From: "Thom Riddle" We can argue this all day long if you want, John. But it IS meaningful to me. If I know the MPG in static air and know my headwind or tailwind component I can easily determine in my head how far over the ground I can go. With GPH all we know is how long we can stay in the air. That plus knowing your ground speed and a little bit of math we can come up with the same result. Neither is meaningless. Just a different way to approach it. Plus it also gives you a relative efficiency number for comparing aircraft, if anyone cares to do that. In static air my normal cruise speed of 85 mph and 3.75 gph gives me about 22.5 mpg. Your MkIII at 85 mph and 5 GPH yields about 17 MPG in static air. -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY (9G0) Kolb Slingshot SS-021 Jabiru 2200A #1574 Tennessee Prop 64x32 Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts. Daniel Patrick Moynihan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321969#321969 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:10:35 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Construction From: robert bean Herb, quite right. If you go to buy an old airplane check to see how long it has been painted. Those polished antiques may look dandy but all they are doing is harm. Better to paint it from the get go or leave the surface to chalk. Even then I have heard about older airplanes that looked great on the surface but you could push a pencil through the skin. Mostly the result of intergranular reaction due to dissimilar metals. A friend who refueled Air America gooneys in VN said he had to be careful to not put a foot through the wing skin. :( BB On 1, Dec 2010, at 4:42 PM, Herb wrote: > > > John > > The only alclad aluminum that I know is 2024...It is considered to be a primary aircraft metal . .the core metal contains a fair amount of copper..The trick it to lay a pure sheet of aluminum over both sides of the ingot before it goes down the hot roll mill.. this bonds a very thin layer to the core metal... > > Guys with unpainted GA planes who like to polish will eventually wear the soft cladding of aluminum through... then it is time to paint...Herb > > > 6061 is a high Maganese/Magnesium alloy...from memory..The outer surface corrodes into aluminum oxide which is hard and offers corrosion protection from the normal elements...meaning ,,,no mouse pee or salt water to name a couple.. > > At 03:11 PM 12/1/2010, you wrote: >> >> >> What is the procedure you used for corrosion proofing the inside of the >> aluminum tubing used on a Kolb? >> >> Gene >> >> >> Gang: >> >> Back in the old days, Kolb used carbon steel rivets with carbon steel >> mandrels. They loved to rust. >> >> I built my Ultrastar with carbon rivets and learned soon how quickly they >> developed rust. >> >> When I built my FS, I got Little Mike, Old Kolb Part Man, to get me SS pop >> rivets to build the FS Kit. They worked much better, but they still used >> carbon steel mandrels. I used to put a blob of Stitts 2 part expoxy on the >> heads, but could do nothing with the tails of the rivets. However, this has >> never been a problem. I am flying a MKIII I built in 1991, and has been >> flying since 1992. That's a lot of hanger time, and a lot of time out under >> the stars and rain/dew when I am flying overnight or longer cross country >> flights. >> >> I haven't had a problem with corrosion. My understanding was most aircraft >> aluminum is "alclad". That is a thin coat of pure aluminum. If you get >> aluminum that is not "alclad", it is more prone to corrode. >> >> Based on the photos Rick G sent to the List of his Kolb project he picked up >> in PA, I would have left it right where I found it. Never seen anything in >> the junk pile out side that looked that bad, except when rodents peed on the >> aluminum. >> >> Rodent urine is highly corrosive, and they love Kolbs, especially the >> tailboom. Occasionally I shoot some anticorrosion spray into my tailboom to >> counteract rodent urine and water that gets in there from condensation, and >> also from occasionally washing the airplane. >> >> I am more concerned with the 4130 chromoly tubing. I have used tube seal in >> all three Kolbs I have built. >> >> I do have drain holes on wings, ailerons, horizontal stabilizers, elevators, >> upper and lower vertical stabilizers, and rudder. Don't know if they do >> more harm than good. They let out moisture, but allow dirt/mud daubers to >> come inside. I had some corrosion in the trailing edge tube of the left >> aileron when I rebuilt it in 2000. Undoubtedly, they have a lot of acid in >> their nests and larvae. >> >> john h >> mkIII >> Titus, Alabama >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:24:26 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb Firestar Fuel consumption We can argue this all day long if you want, John. But it IS meaningful to me. If I know the MPG in static air and know my headwind or tailwind component I can easily determine in my head how far over the ground I can go. With GPH all we know is how long we can stay in the air. That plus knowing your ground speed and a little bit of math we can come up with the same result. Neither is meaningless. Just a different way to approach it. Plus it also gives you a relative efficiency number for comparing aircraft, if anyone cares to do that. In static air my normal cruise speed of 85 mph and 3.75 gph gives me about 22.5 mpg. Your MkIII at 85 mph and 5 GPH yields about 17 MPG in static air. -------- Thom Riddle Thom R/Gang: I am sure your system of mpg works for you, but not for me. I never heard the term mpg in military or civilian flight training I have attended. It has been a long time since I have been to school, so maybe current aviation is not using GPH, but MPG now. Let me know when you find some static air. ;-) Most of us are flying with GPS now days. Mine is an old Garmin 196, but it does give me constantly updated info like "time to my next waypoint", etc. Much better system than the old E6B. I don't need to know wind speed or direction, at my altitude, and where I am located. Knowing my accurate fuel burn, I know immediately how much fuel and time it will take me to get to my next. MPG is for automobiles. GPH is for aircraft. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 04:30:12 PM PST US From: "Dennis Souder" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Construction For those interested in painting the inside of tubes: Years ago we built a float FS that was intended to be flown on the Chesapeake where the water is brackish - somewhat salty. We have always urged strong caution in flying Kolbs on salt water because there are so many dissimilar metals. John Pitre in HI flew a TS for many years but he went to great pains to protect and to rinse thoroughly with fresh water after flying. Getting back to the FS on the Chesapeake: We made a shallow pan and soaked the ribs in lacquer thinner and swished it around to remove as much of the oily coating on - and in - the tubing. Then we immersed the ribs in a shallow pan of epoxy chromate primer and hung them up to drip dry. For the spars we cleaned them inside and out with lacquer thinner and then poured epoxy chromate paint thru them with the ends capped off with plastic. The spars were then rotated and tilted to get the inside thoroughly covered. Then when the wing was assembled we sprayed epoxy chromate paint to paint all the rivets and any missed areas. The tail surfaces, etc got even better treatment because the tail typically receives spray from the floats. I don't know how much of that was necessary, but we thought we were being as thorough as we could. I lost track of that FS, so ultimately I do not know how successful or unsuccessful the preventative measures were. Dennis -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hauck Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 4:12 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Construction What is the procedure you used for corrosion proofing the inside of the aluminum tubing used on a Kolb? Gene Gang: Back in the old days, Kolb used carbon steel rivets with carbon steel mandrels. They loved to rust. I built my Ultrastar with carbon rivets and learned soon how quickly they developed rust. When I built my FS, I got Little Mike, Old Kolb Part Man, to get me SS pop rivets to build the FS Kit. They worked much better, but they still used carbon steel mandrels. I used to put a blob of Stitts 2 part expoxy on the heads, but could do nothing with the tails of the rivets. However, this has never been a problem. I am flying a MKIII I built in 1991, and has been flying since 1992. That's a lot of hanger time, and a lot of time out under the stars and rain/dew when I am flying overnight or longer cross country flights. I haven't had a problem with corrosion. My understanding was most aircraft aluminum is "alclad". That is a thin coat of pure aluminum. If you get aluminum that is not "alclad", it is more prone to corrode. Based on the photos Rick G sent to the List of his Kolb project he picked up in PA, I would have left it right where I found it. Never seen anything in the junk pile out side that looked that bad, except when rodents peed on the aluminum. Rodent urine is highly corrosive, and they love Kolbs, especially the tailboom. Occasionally I shoot some anticorrosion spray into my tailboom to counteract rodent urine and water that gets in there from condensation, and also from occasionally washing the airplane. I am more concerned with the 4130 chromoly tubing. I have used tube seal in all three Kolbs I have built. I do have drain holes on wings, ailerons, horizontal stabilizers, elevators, upper and lower vertical stabilizers, and rudder. Don't know if they do more harm than good. They let out moisture, but allow dirt/mud daubers to come inside. I had some corrosion in the trailing edge tube of the left aileron when I rebuilt it in 2000. Undoubtedly, they have a lot of acid in their nests and larvae. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 05:09:43 PM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Kolb-List: Replacing UltraStart Red battery Kolbers, I was about to purchase the second replacement battery for the FireFly. And then I thought I would look at finding something different that may not be so expensive. I stripped off the adhesive label and found that the battery was made by GS Battery, a Portalac PX12050SHR. I went to a local battery shop and purchase an equivalent battery and modified it to replace the UltraStart Red. The dollar savings were substantial. If you would like to see how it was done, check out: http://jackbhart.com/firefly/firefly160.html Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 08:02:20 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Adding additional fuel tanks =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=93?= Jump Seat =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=93?= FS-2 From: "Richard Pike" I think your weight and balance would probably come out better with the six gallon tanks where the jump seat used to be, and then put one five gallon tank just behind them where the original front tank was, that will give you 17 gallons, and with a 503, that is a lot of fuel. Here's how the two six gallon tanks fit in N582EF. No current pictures, can get some if you want. (Tomorrow) Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=322018#322018 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/normal_1_760.jpg ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.