Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:07 AM - Re: Dependable instruments (John Hauck)
2. 07:46 AM - Re: Dependable instruments (Jack B. Hart)
3. 08:04 AM - Re: Dependable instruments (robert bean)
4. 08:48 AM - Re: Dependable instruments (Mike Welch)
5. 08:55 AM - Re: Dependable instruments (Vic Peters)
6. 09:21 AM - Re: Re: Dependable instruments (Mike Welch)
7. 09:40 AM - Re: Dependable Instruments (william sullivan)
8. 09:43 AM - Re: Re: Dependable instruments (frank goodnight)
9. 10:09 AM - Re: Re: Dependable instruments (robert bean)
10. 10:49 AM - Re: Re: Dependable instruments (Mike Welch)
11. 11:09 AM - Re: Re: Dependable instruments (frank goodnight)
12. 11:45 AM - Re: Re: Dependable instruments (Mike Welch)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Dependable instruments |
Now, if I stick my finger in the airsteam just a bit, the Dynon will
reflect a
modest decrease, 1, 2, maybe even 3 mph, but the UMA...no change. If
I remove my finger out of the flow of air, the Dynon goes back to 50. In
the
meantime, the UMA never left 50.
> john h
Mike W/Kolbers:
Sorry, I misunderstood your initial post comparing the two ASI's.
The UMA is probably not slow and/or lagging, but insensitive to small
changes. Probably a cheap bellows and operating mechanism.
I tried to get a new UMA tach to work on my 912 some years ago. Worked with
the factory techs through three different new UMA tachs. Never could get it
to work correctly. Finally, went back to the Rotax tach. I wanted a 3 inch
tach instead of the 2" Rotax tach.
I haven't bought an ASI in some time, but I have always used Winter brand
built in Germany, primarily for sail planes.
You are correct, Michael. You get what you pay for. That's why I have
flown with the 912 series engines since 1994. They are outrageously
exensive, but reliable.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama - Watching the rain drops fall.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Dependable instruments |
At 08:05 AM 1/25/11 -0600, you wrote:
>
>
>The UMA is probably not slow and/or lagging, but insensitive to small
>changes. Probably a cheap bellows and operating mechanism.
>
John is correct in that each instrument will have a different threshold to
incremental change due to the mechanisms internal resistance or friction.
If you are going to compare two different ASI, it is best to put them in the
same flying environment. What was the poorest performing may equal the best
performing when both are subjected normal vibrations due to powered flight.
I use a Winter ASI in the FireFly. I was disappointed due to it's slow
reaction time. I minimized the reaction time by drilling out the flow
control orifice to the point that it is a little on the nervous side.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Dependable instruments |
Another factor may cause lagging response in an otherwise good system. A bug.
Insect residue such as a small piece of spiderweb can cause a small enough restriction
to
give a lagging or a small series of steps in needle response. Not enough to prevent
a steady state reading
which will still be accurate. Disconnect at the panel and blow out in reverse.
Sorry if this is too obvious.
BB
On 25, Jan 2011, at 10:48 AM, Jack B. Hart wrote:
>
> At 08:05 AM 1/25/11 -0600, you wrote:
>>
>>
>> The UMA is probably not slow and/or lagging, but insensitive to small
>> changes. Probably a cheap bellows and operating mechanism.
>>
>
> John is correct in that each instrument will have a different threshold to
> incremental change due to the mechanisms internal resistance or friction.
>
> If you are going to compare two different ASI, it is best to put them in the
> same flying environment. What was the poorest performing may equal the best
> performing when both are subjected normal vibrations due to powered flight.
>
> I use a Winter ASI in the FireFly. I was disappointed due to it's slow
> reaction time. I minimized the reaction time by drilling out the flow
> control orifice to the point that it is a little on the nervous side.
>
> Jack B. Hart FF004
> Winchester, IN
>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Dependable instruments |
Jack=2C
Hi. Hiding out from the snow=2C lately???
Regarding the UMA airspeed indicator=2C it isn't that it "lags". Very sm
all
airspeed changes do not move the needle....at all.
It frankly just isn't that high of a quality of an indicator!! There are $
170
A/S gauges and there are $800 A/S gauges. The 'more expensive' gauge
will likely be=3B more accurate=2C more smooth in operation=2C and in gener
al=2C
basically perform better. Maybe not always......but most of the time.
My UMA A/S indicator is a $170 version. It is 'entry level'. I chose it
because I knew I had a back-up. However=2C as I said before=2C it IS reaso
nably
accurate. It performs an adequate job. If it was my ONLY A/S indicator=2C
I
would still feel confident I could depend on it (after testing it and verif
ying that
it operates just fine!!)
Having never flown with either the Dynon or the UMA=2C I just wanted a li
ttle
'piece of mind' that they simply worked!! Accuracy I can work on later (bu
t
from appearances=2C I doubt I'll need to!!). But=2C a completely 'non-work
ing'
airspeed system may not give me a 'later'=2C and that's all I was trying to
avoid
with the test. : (
Mike Welch
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Dependable instruments |
Anyone
I have a UMA asi. It stopped working a couple times. 1st I thought it
was the air flow pitot cover. Not. Started woking during climb. 2nd time
I hit ET (gauge cluster) on the head and it worked.
What should I look for besides a new one?
Vic
912ul
xtra
--------
Vic
912ul Xtra
Maine
Too old to cut the mustard but not the cheese.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=328430#328430
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Dependable instruments |
> I have a UMA asi. It stopped working a couple times. > Vic
> 912ul
> xtra
Hi Vic=2C
I took apart a poorly working TSO'd airspeed indicator once.
(I've taken apart two airspeed indicators=2C and put them back together)
If I remember correctly=2C there was very slight metal corrosion
on the internal moving and touching parts. I carefully cleaned
them up with an electronic parts cleaner product=2C put on a
couple of tiny drops of mineral oil (really tiny!!!) on the moving
parts where they contact=2C and it worked like a champ!!
I even took the time to clean the dial face real nice=2C and purdy. I
polished the glass lens=2C and put the whole arrangement back together.
It was given to me for free. I sold it for $130 to a guy on eBay.
He installed it immediately after getting it=2C and said it worked
flawlessly for his flight back to Los Angeles.
So=2C in a nutshell=2C I'd say you might have some light corrosion.
Take it apart=2C and look.
BTW=2C you'll want a spotless work environment!! Lay out a clean
light colored towel. Light colored so you can see the tiny little screws
=2C
when you drop them.
Just a thought....
Mike Welch
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Dependable Instruments |
- Mike- One note on the ASI.- Check it again after you install it.- I
thought I was safe if my ASI read under 20mph.- Didn't move at all while
taxiing.- Turned out it was hooked up backwards, leading to my surprise
flight.- I had depended on someone else saying the needle had moved while
testing it.- I think it must have moved backwards, or something.
-
-------------------------
------------------- Bill Sullivan
-------------------------
------------------- Windsor Locks, Ct
. (snowing again)
-------------------------
------------------- FS 447
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Dependable instruments |
All the talk about airspeed indicaters leads to me to ask if I am the only
one =0Athat routinely practices flying=0Awith out useing the ASI ,take off,
landings, slow flight , stalls ,unsual =0Aattitudes .especially takeoffs a
nd landings=0Afrom differant alt above sea level --35ft to over 6000ft .dif
ferent aproch =0Aspeeds , landing uphill- downhill or anythin=0Aelse I can
think of that will help me to fly the airplane.=0AFrank Goodnight=0A=0A=0A
=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotm
ail.com>=0ATo: kolb-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tue, January 25, 2011 11:18:
09 AM=0ASubject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Dependable instruments=0A=0A> I have a
UMA asi. It stopped working a couple times. > Vic=0A> 912ul=0A> xtra=0A-
=0AHi Vic,=0A-=0A- I took apart a poorly working TSO'd airspeed indicat
or once.=0A(I've taken apart two airspeed indicators, and put them back tog
ether)=0AIf I remember correctly, there was very slight metal corrosion=0Ao
n the internal moving and touching parts.- I carefully cleaned=0Athem up
with an electronic parts cleaner product, put on a =0Acouple of tiny drops
of mineral oil (really tiny!!!) on the moving=0Aparts where they contact, a
nd it worked like a champ!!=0A-=0A- I even took the time to clean the d
ial face-real nice, and purdy.- I=0Apolished the glass lens, and put th
e whole arrangement back together.=0A-=0A- It was given to me for free.
- I sold it for $130 to a guy on eBay.=0AHe installed it immediately afte
r getting it, and said it worked=0Aflawlessly for his flight back to Los An
geles.=0A-=0A- So, in a nutshell, I'd say you might have some light cor
rosion.=0ATake it apart, and look.=0A-=0A- BTW, you'll want a spotless
work environment!!- Lay out a clean=0Alight colored towel.- Light color
ed so you can see the tiny little screws,=0Awhen you drop them.=0A-=0A-
=== =0A
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Dependable instruments |
Frank, there are those who can and those who shouldn't fly without an
ASI. If you are in the former group, you are both
a better pilot and better practicing it. In my aeronca I flew more than
one season with it inop. -Didn't make any difference.
I knew the plane that well. -although comparing it to a Kolb is apples
to oranges. The aeronca gave more airspeed feedback
via control heaviness than a Kolb. Most of the old taildraggers were
the same.
Of course there is a big inertia difference between a 800 lb plane and a
1300 lb plane which also has less drag.
The only thing I glanced at occasionally was the oil pressure gauge.
On 25, Jan 2011, at 12:40 PM, frank goodnight wrote:
> All the talk about airspeed indicaters leads to me to ask if I am the
only one that routinely practices flying
> with out useing the ASI ,take off, landings, slow flight , stalls
,unsual attitudes .especially takeoffs and landings
> from differant alt above sea level --35ft to over 6000ft .different
aproch speeds , landing uphill- downhill or anythin
> else I can think of that will help me to fly the airplane.
> Frank Goodnight
>
> From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tue, January 25, 2011 11:18:09 AM
> Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Dependable instruments
>
> > I have a UMA asi. It stopped working a couple times. > Vic
> > 912ul
> > xtra
>
> Hi Vic,
>
> I took apart a poorly working TSO'd airspeed indicator once.
> (I've taken apart two airspeed indicators, and put them back together)
> If I remember correctly, there was very slight metal corrosion
> on the internal moving and touching parts. I carefully cleaned
> them up with an electronic parts cleaner product, put on a
> couple of tiny drops of mineral oil (really tiny!!!) on the moving
> parts where they contact, and it worked like a champ!!
>
> I even took the time to clean the dial face real nice, and purdy. I
> polished the glass lens, and put the whole arrangement back together.
>
> It was given to me for free. I sold it for $130 to a guy on eBay.
> He installed it immediately after getting it, and said it worked
> flawlessly for his flight back to Los Angeles.
>
> So, in a nutshell, I'd say you might have some light corrosion.
> Take it apart, and look.
>
> BTW, you'll want a spotless work environment!! Lay out a clean
> light colored towel. Light colored so you can see the tiny little
screws,
> when you drop them.
>
> Just a thought....
>
> Mike Welch
>
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Dependable instruments |
Yes=2C Frank=2C but how many BRAND NEW=2C NEVER FLOWN airplanes=2C
with "never proven that they even work" airpeed indicators in them
have you flown??
When I take my maiden flight=2C it will be the FIRST time my plane will
have ever been in the air. It will also be the FIRST time the
airspeed instruments will ever be asked to show a useful reading.
No one=2C (NONE) has said anything about needing an airspeed
instrument=2C or NOT needing one. The subject has just been
about the accuracy of cheaper vs. more expensive ones.
When I had my Cessna 172=2C I used to fly all the time not looking at the
airspeed indicator. I especially like "super slow flight"=2C where I was
practically hanging on the prop=2C and the stall horn 'a blarin'.
I've crashed an ultralight once. Hurt so damn bad=2C I can't even face
thinking about it. I darn sure don't want to do that again. It was one of
the top
two injuries in my life!!!
Sorry if I sound miffed=2C but you make it seem as if I'm concerned about
nothing=2C either that=2C or you didn't catch the point of the discussion.
Several of our Kolb friends are not with us anymore. I'd like to NOT
join them!!
After a person is familiar with their plane=2C sure=2C then they can practi
ce
lots of flying without an airspeed indicator. But for me=2C I'd rather be
over-cautious with my track record of new flights.
Mike Welch
From: frank.goodnight@att.net
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Dependable instruments
All the talk about airspeed indicaters leads to me to ask if I am the only
one that routinely practices flying
with out useing the ASI =2Ctake off=2C landings=2C slow flight =2C stalls
=2Cunsual attitudes .especially takeoffs and landings
from differant alt above sea level --35ft to over 6000ft .different aproch
speeds =2C landing uphill- downhill or anythin
else I can think of that will help me to fly the airplane.
Frank Goodnight
From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tue=2C January 25=2C 2011 11:18:09 AM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Dependable instruments
> I have a UMA asi. It stopped working a couple times. > Vic
> 912ul
> xtra
Hi Vic=2C
I took apart a poorly working TSO'd airspeed indicator once.
(I've taken apart two airspeed indicators=2C and put them back together)
If I remember correctly=2C there was very slight metal corrosion
on the internal moving and touching parts. I carefully cleaned
them up with an electronic parts cleaner product=2C put on a
couple of tiny drops of mineral oil (really tiny!!!) on the moving
parts where they contact=2C and it worked like a champ!!
I even took the time to clean the dial face real nice=2C and purdy. I
polished the glass lens=2C and put the whole arrangement back together.
It was given to me for free. I sold it for $130 to a guy on eBay.
He installed it immediately after getting it=2C and said it worked
flawlessly for his flight back to Los Angeles.
So=2C in a nutshell=2C I'd say you might have some light corrosion.
Take it apart=2C and look.
BTW=2C you'll want a spotless work environment!! Lay out a clean
light colored towel. Light colored so you can see the tiny little screws
=2C
when you drop them.
Just a thought....
Mike Welch
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Dependable instruments |
Hi Mike' sorry if I touched a nerve.Didn't mean to upset anyone.Could be I
=0Ashould have used a different thread.=0A-Answer to your question --how
many brand new , never flown, never proven =0Aairplanes have I flown?- I'
ve flown 2=0AMy B8M gyro and my Kolb firestar (after I had built them) Grea
t Fun!!!=0AFrank Goodnight=0Ado not archive=0A=0A=0A_______________________
_________=0AFrom: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>=0ATo: kolb-list@matr
onics.com=0ASent: Tue, January 25, 2011 12:45:42 PM=0ASubject: RE: Kolb-Lis
t: Re: Dependable instruments=0A=0AYes, Frank,-- but how many BRAND NEW
, NEVER FLOWN airplanes, =0Awith "never-proven that they even work" airpe
ed indicators in them=0Ahave you flown??=0A-=0AWhen I take my maiden flig
ht, it will be the FIRST time-my plane-will=0Ahave ever been in the air
.- It will-also be the FIRST time the=0Aairspeed instruments will ever
be asked to show a-useful reading.=0A-=0ANo-one, (NONE) has said anyt
hing about needing an airspeed=0Ainstrument, or NOT needing one.- The sub
ject has just been=0Aabout the accuracy of cheaper vs. more expensive ones.
=0A-=0AWhen I had my Cessna 172, I used to fly all the-time not looking
at the=0Aairspeed indicator.- I especially like "super slow flight", whe
re-I was =0Apractically hanging on the prop, and the stall horn 'a blarin
'.=0A-=0AI've crashed an ultralight once.- Hurt so damn bad, I can't ev
en face=0Athinking about it.- I darn sure don't want to do that again.-
It was one of the =0Atop=0Atwo injuries in my life!!!=0A-=0ASorry if I s
ound miffed, but you make it seem as if I'm concerned about=0Anothing, eith
er that, or you didn't catch the point of the discussion.=0ASeveral of our
Kolb friends are not with us anymore.- I'd like to NOT=0Ajoin them!!=0A
-=0AAfter a person is familiar with their plane, sure, then they can prac
tice=0Alots of flying without an airspeed indicator.- But for me, I'd rat
her be=0Aover-cautious with my track record of new flights.=0A-=0AMike We
lch=0A________________________________=0ADate: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 09:40:49 -0
800=0AFrom: frank.goodnight@att.net=0ASubject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Dependabl
e instruments=0ATo: kolb-list@matronics.com=0A=0A=0AAll the talk about airs
peed indicaters leads to me to ask if I am the only one =0Athat routinely p
ractices flying=0Awith out useing the ASI ,take off, landings, slow flight
, stalls ,unsual =0Aattitudes .especially takeoffs and landings=0Afrom diff
erant alt above sea level --35ft to over 6000ft .different aproch =0Aspeeds
, landing uphill- downhill or anythin=0Aelse I can think of that will help
me to fly the airplane.=0AFrank Goodnight=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A__________________
______________=0AFrom: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>=0ATo: kolb-list
@matronics.com=0ASent: Tue, January 25, 2011 11:18:09 AM=0ASubject: RE: Kol
b-List: Re: Dependable instruments=0A=0A> I have a UMA asi. It stopped work
ing a couple times. > Vic=0A> 912ul=0A> xtra=0A-=0AHi Vic,=0A-=0A- I
took apart a poorly working TSO'd airspeed indicator once.=0A(I've taken ap
art two airspeed indicators, and put them back together)=0AIf I remember co
rrectly, there was very slight metal corrosion=0Aon the internal moving and
touching parts.- I carefully cleaned=0Athem up with an electronic parts
cleaner product, put on a =0Acouple of tiny drops of mineral oil (really ti
ny!!!) on the moving=0Aparts where they contact, and it worked like a champ
!!=0A-=0A- I even took the time to clean the dial face-real nice, and
purdy.- I=0Apolished the glass lens, and put the whole arrangement back
together.=0A-=0A- It was given to me for free.- I sold it for $130 to
a guy on eBay.=0AHe installed it immediately after getting it, and said it
worked=0Aflawlessly for his flight back to Los Angeles.=0A-=0A- So, in
a nutshell, I'd say you might have some light corrosion.=0ATake it apart,
and look.=0A-=0A- BTW, you'll want a spotless work environment!!- Lay
out a clean=0Alight colored towel.- Light colored so you can see the tin
y little screws,=0Awhen you drop them.=0A-=0A- Just a thought....=0A-
=0AMike Welch=0A=0A=0A arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?K
olb-List =0Attp://forums.matronics.com =_blank>http://www.matronics.com/c
-========================
================== =0A
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Dependable instruments |
Hi Mike' sorry if I touched a nerve.Didn't mean to upset anyone.
No problem=2C Frank.
I would agree if anybody said I was touchy about flying my
new Kolb=2C though. I applaud you for your two maiden
flight successes. Oh=2C how I dream of that day (and live to
brag about it!!)
Back when I crashed my U/L=2C it was MY fault. I did not have
sufficient or recent training. I do NOT want to make that mistake
again!
If I were to crash like the last time=2C and I were given the choice of
the same pain=2C or death=2C it would be a tough call=2C you can believe me
on that one.
I think all pilots should be completely familiar with as much of
the flight experience as they can be. Practice=2C practice=2C practice.
The more practice we have=2C the safer we should be. And safe
is always a good thing.
Mike W
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