Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:07 AM - Re: club planes? (Thom Riddle)
2. 05:33 AM - Re: Re: club planes? (Dana Hague)
3. 05:36 AM - Re: Christmas Came Today (Kolb Aircraft)
4. 05:51 AM - Re: club planes? (Thom Riddle)
5. 06:31 AM - Re: Re: club planes? (Mike Welch)
6. 06:47 AM - Re: club planes? (Thom Riddle)
7. 08:01 AM - Re: Re: club planes? (Richard Girard)
8. 08:39 AM - Re: Re: club planes? (robert bean)
9. 09:50 AM - Re: bad news good news (ktnc420)
10. 12:55 PM - Re: Re: club planes? (Mike Welch)
11. 02:27 PM - Re: Re: club planes? (Malcolm Brubaker)
12. 03:37 PM - Re: Re: club planes? (Dana Hague)
13. 03:48 PM - Re: Re: club planes? (Dana Hague)
14. 03:50 PM - Re: Re: club planes? (Mike Welch)
15. 04:23 PM - Re: Re: club planes? (Dana Hague)
16. 04:26 PM - Re: Re: club planes? (Dana Hague)
17. 04:54 PM - Re: Re: club planes? (John Hauck)
18. 05:47 PM - Re: club planes? (Thom Riddle)
19. 07:06 PM - Firestar Crash (John Hauck)
20. 07:25 PM - Re: Firestar Crash (Daniel Myers)
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| Subject: | Re: club planes? |
When our group of three owned a Rans S6 Exp A/B and I had an active instructor's
certificate, I considered this. I spoke to our insurance agent about it and
learned the following.
- Every member in the group must have an equity stake in the organization. Some
"significant" equity at risk is required but need not be equal for all members.
- The group instructor does not have to be a member.
- Our insurance limited the total membership to 5 (at one time). Over that and
the insurance policy would have to be for a commercial operation which would make
the premiums on the order of 3 times as high.
- Do not use the term "CLUB" because this implies (to insurance folks) a non-equity
membership organization.
- Students would have to pay an extra insurance premium until they received their
full certificate (sport or private).
So, this idea is viable and the aircraft insurable for small groups, but not for
large clubs.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
Don't accept your dog's admiration as conclusive evidence that you are wonderful.
Ann Landers
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329942#329942
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| Subject: | Re: club planes? |
At 08:05 AM 2/7/2011, Thom Riddle wrote:
>
>When our group of three owned a Rans S6 Exp A/B and I had an active
>instructor's certificate, I considered this. I spoke to our insurance
>agent about it...
That addresses the insurance aspects and is useful information, but doesn't
address the FAA (paid instruction in an experimental) aspect... although a
similar logic _might_ apply.
-Dana
--
2000 mockingbirds = two kilomockingbirds
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| Subject: | Re: Christmas Came Today |
You are very welcome Rick.
Travis
Kolb CO.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Lewis" <cktman@hughes.net>
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 6:50 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Christmas Came Today
>
> Today I received my long awaited plans for my MKIII xtra. I bought the
> plane over three years ago and have been using a set of plans that were
> for another type and a lot of things simply didn't make sense so there
> were a lot of calls to Brian. He is a great guy to talk to and was always
> able to answer any questions I had. The first set of plans were given to
> me by Donnie and I was told to use them until they had the xtra plans
> re-done. Brian bought the Kolb company and one of his first projects was
> to make a good set of plans for the MKIII xtra.
>
> I have looked over these new plans and they are outstanding. They
> came with over 600 pictures on cd and a notebook of detailed text and
> drawings. I now also have the blueprints others have talked about. Brian
> has done a wonderful job on these. They are some of the best set of
> plans I have ever seen. I know this was a lot of work, he obviously took
> great care in making them.
>
> Thank you Brian, Travis, and Dennis. :D
>
> --------
> Rick Lewis
>
> (VW Watercooled Engine)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329666#329666
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: club planes? |
Dana,
The FAA regs allow instruction in any experimental aircraft which is owned by the
person receiving the instruction. My FSDO said that partial ownership or indirect
ownership (share holder in a corporation that owns the aircraft) qualifies
as long as there is an equity position in the aircraft.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
Don't accept your dog's admiration as conclusive evidence that you are wonderful.
Ann Landers
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329948#329948
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| Subject: | Re: club planes? |
> The FAA regs allow instruction in any experimental aircraft which is owne
d by the person receiving the instruction. > --------
> Thom Riddle
Thom=2C & knowledgeable 'regs' guys=2C
Your statement above is excellent information=2C but what about the situa
tion
where a plane is just given it's airworthiness certificate?
I get the impression what you said is fine for a fully built=2C previous
flown
airplane=2C but what about a brand new one?
Once a plane is finally finished=2C aren't you supposed to fly off a cert
ain
number of hours before someone can be in the plane also?
How does that work? I never have clearly understood how this part works.
After rereading your statement=2C I think I'm getting more confused. If
a person
had a CFI teach him to fly=2C OF COURSE he could be taught in ANY (legal) a
irplane.
My question is=3B How can a guy learn to fly his brand new=2C never flow
n=2C just
licenced=2C experimental airplane? Can he have an instructor go with him o
n his
maiden flight? Does anyone know how this works??
We've had a few recent incidents where lowtime Kolb pilots bent their pla
nes
(and themselves). What does the FAA regs say to address this problem?
Thanks.
Mike Welch
MkIII
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| Subject: | Re: club planes? |
Mike,
You are correct. The phase one flying must be complete for more than required crew
to be aboard. The builder of an experimental aircraft who is not already a
certificated pilot must learn to fly like the rest of us, in another airplane
that is legal for instruction. In the case of experimental aircraft that means
one that is in phase 2 testing and owned, at least partially, by the wannabe
pilot.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
Don't accept your dog's admiration as conclusive evidence that you are wonderful.
Ann Landers
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329956#329956
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: club planes? |
Mike, You cannot take anyone along for any reason during phase 1 testing,
UNLESS, you can show that that person is essential for some aspect of your
test program and would have to be cleared by the FSDO that sets your test
area and phase 1 testing requirements. Teaching you to fly your aircraft is
not part of a test program of the aircraft. Your best bet is to get someone
else, who has the experience, to do your initial test flights.
Rick Girard
On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 8:27 AM, Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > The FAA regs allow instruction in any experimental aircraft which is
> owned by the person receiving the instruction. > --------
> > Thom Riddle
>
> Thom, & knowledgeable 'regs' guys,
>
> Your statement above is excellent information, but what about the
> situation
> where a plane is just given it's airworthiness certificate?
> I get the impression what you said is fine for a fully built, previous
> flown
> airplane, but what about a brand new one?
> Once a plane is finally finished, aren't you supposed to fly off a
> certain
> number of hours before someone can be in the plane also?
> How does that work? I never have clearly understood how this part works.
>
> After rereading your statement, I think I'm getting more confused. If a
> person
> had a CFI teach him to fly, OF COURSE he could be taught in ANY (legal)
> airplane.
>
> My question is; How can a guy learn to fly his brand new, never flown,
> just
> licenced, experimental airplane? Can he have an instructor go with him on
> his
> maiden flight? Does anyone know how this works??
>
> We've had a few recent incidents where lowtime Kolb pilots bent their
> planes
> (and themselves). What does the FAA regs say to address this problem?
>
> Thanks.
> Mike Welch
> MkIII
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: club planes? |
- good advice. And be sure his experience isn't limited to the Cessna
150/cherokee varieties. That is how I came
to buy a "slightly" damaged cage assembly for my hybrid MkIII. Some
assembly was required.
BB
On 7, Feb 2011, at 10:57 AM, Richard Girard wrote:
> Mike, You cannot take anyone along for any reason during phase 1
testing, UNLESS, you can show that that person is essential for some
aspect of your test program and would have to be cleared by the FSDO
that sets your test area and phase 1 testing requirements. Teaching you
to fly your aircraft is not part of a test program of the aircraft. Your
best bet is to get someone else, who has the experience, to do your
initial test flights.
>
> Rick Girard
>
> On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 8:27 AM, Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> > The FAA regs allow instruction in any experimental aircraft which is
owned by the person receiving the instruction. > --------
> > Thom Riddle
>
> Thom, & knowledgeable 'regs' guys,
>
> Your statement above is excellent information, but what about the
situation
> where a plane is just given it's airworthiness certificate?
> I get the impression what you said is fine for a fully built,
previous flown
> airplane, but what about a brand new one?
> Once a plane is finally finished, aren't you supposed to fly off a
certain
> number of hours before someone can be in the plane also?
> How does that work? I never have clearly understood how this part
works.
>
> After rereading your statement, I think I'm getting more confused.
If a person
> had a CFI teach him to fly, OF COURSE he could be taught in ANY
(legal) airplane.
>
> My question is; How can a guy learn to fly his brand new, never
flown, just
> licenced, experimental airplane? Can he have an instructor go with
him on his
> maiden flight? Does anyone know how this works??
>
> We've had a few recent incidents where lowtime Kolb pilots bent
their planes
> (and themselves). What does the FAA regs say to address this problem?
>
> Thanks.
> Mike Welch
> MkIII
>
>
>
> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
>
> --
> Zulu Delta
> Mk IIIC
> Thanks, Homer GBYM
>
> It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be
unhappy.
> - Groucho Marx
>
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: bad news good news |
Contact me via e-mail and I'll give address.
Thanks!
KT
Mark III NC
ktony20@hotmail.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329998#329998
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| Subject: | Re: club planes? |
Hi Rick=2C
Thanks for the clarification. This is a confirmation of what I have alw
ays understood.
Mike Welch
>Mike=2C You cannot take anyone along for any reason during phase 1 testing
=2C UNLESS=2C you can show that that person is essential for some >aspect o
f your test program and would have to be cleared by the FSDO that sets your
test area and phase 1 testing requirements. >Teaching you to fly your airc
raft is not part of a test program of the aircraft. Your best bet is to get
someone else=2C who has the >experience=2C to do your initial test flights
.
>Rick Girard
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: club planes? |
We have established the need. We have proven viability. We even have an
apparent precedent. So, what next?
An easy to follow format with all the "legal" jargon included for the average
"layman" CFI or old BFI properly providing for that "equity position". Could
such a "position" be covered by something so simple as a "damage deposit" on the
aircraft??
Malcolm Brubaker
Michigan Sport
Pilot Repair
LSRM-A, PPC, WS
(989)513-3022
________________________________
From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
Sent: Mon, February 7, 2011 9:27:30 AM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: club planes?
> The FAA regs allow instruction in any experimental aircraft which is owned by
the person receiving the instruction. > --------
> Thom Riddle
Thom, & knowledgeable 'regs' guys,
Your statement above is excellent information, but what about the situation
where a plane is just given it's airworthiness certificate?
I get the impression what you said is fine for a fully built, previous flown
airplane, but what about a brand new one?
Once a plane is finally finished, aren't you supposed to fly off a certain
number of hours before someone can be in the plane also?
How does that work? I never have clearly understood how this part works.
After rereading your statement, I think I'm getting more confused. If a
person
had a CFI teach him to fly, OF COURSE he could be taught in ANY (legal)
airplane.
My question is; How can a guy learn to fly his brand new, never flown, just
licenced, experimental airplane? Can he have an instructor go with him on his
maiden flight? Does anyone know how this works??
We've had a few recent incidents where lowtime Kolb pilots bent their planes
(and themselves). What does the FAA regs say to address this problem?
Thanks.
Mike Welch
MkIII
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: club planes? |
At 09:27 AM 2/7/2011, Mike Welch wrote:
> Your statement above is excellent information, but what about the situation
>where a plane is just given it's airworthiness certificate?
> I get the impression what you said is fine for a fully built, previous
> flown
>airplane, but what about a brand new one?
> Once a plane is finally finished, aren't you supposed to fly off a certain
>number of hours before someone can be in the plane also?
As others have said, the aircraft must be flown solo during the initial
testing. I believe, however, than an instructor can sign a student off for
solo in an aircraft still in Phase 1 testing... but of course the student
would have to have prior instruction in something else, and the instructor
confident in the student's ability to handle anything that might arise.
-Dana
--
The Definition of an Upgrade: Take old bugs out, put new ones in.
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| Subject: | Re: club planes? |
At 05:19 PM 2/7/2011, Malcolm Brubaker wrote:
>We have established the need. We have proven viability. We even have an
>apparent precedent. So, what next?
>An easy to follow format with all the "legal" jargon included for the
>average "layman" CFI or old BFI properly providing for that "equity
>position". Could such a "position" be covered by something so simple as a
>"damage deposit" on the aircraft??
You could pitch it to the prospective student as a "damage
deposit". However, I think it would have to be, in writing, a purchase of
a "share" of the corporation owning the aircraft.
-Dana
--
Come to think of it, there already are a million monkeys at a million
typewriters, and the Internet is _NOTHING_ like Shakespeare!
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| Subject: | Re: club planes? |
>As others have said=2C the aircraft must be flown solo during the initial
testing. I believe=2C however=2C than an instructor can sign a student >of
f for solo in an aircraft still in Phase 1 testing... but of course the stu
dent would have to have prior instruction in something else=2C and >the ins
tructor confident in the student's ability to handle anything that might ar
ise.
>Dana
Dana=2C
In a private conversation=2C Thom Riddle and I came to the opinion
that a student pilot can NOT fly an experimental airplane in 'phase 1'
testing.
For clarification's sake=2C could someone look this up?
Thanks=2C Mike W
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: club planes? |
At 06:47 PM 2/7/2011, Mike Welch wrote:
>
> In a private conversation, Thom Riddle and I came to the opinion
>that a student pilot can NOT fly an experimental airplane in 'phase 1'
>testing.
>
> For clarification's sake, could someone look this up?
It may depend on the operating limitations which are, I believe, at the
discretion of the FAA inspector or DAR.
Back in the Bensen Gyrocopter days (pre 103), it was permissible for a
helicopter CFI to sign a student off for solo in their brand new never
flown single seat homebuilt gyro (since there were no 2-seat gyros and no
gyro CFIs). I don't know what the deal is nowadays.
-Dana
--
Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to
teenage boys.
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| Subject: | Re: club planes? |
At 06:47 PM 2/7/2011, Mike Welch wrote:
>
> In a private conversation, Thom Riddle and I came to the opinion
>that a student pilot can NOT fly an experimental airplane in 'phase 1'
>testing.
>
> For clarification's sake, could someone look this up?
It may depend on the operating limitations which are, I believe, at the
discretion of the FAA inspector or DAR.
Back in the Bensen Gyrocopter days (pre 103), it was permissible for a
helicopter CFI to sign a student off for solo in their brand new never
flown single seat homebuilt gyro (since there were no 2-seat gyros and no
gyro CFIs). I don't know what the deal is nowadays.
-Dana
--
Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to
teenage boys.
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: club planes? |
For clarification's sake, could someone look this up?
Thanks, Mike W
Q: I've just finished building my Pietenpol, which is an experimental
amateur-built aircraft that meets the LSA definition. I'm ready to begin the
phase-one flight testing. I'm a student pilot working toward my sport pilot
certificate and I don't hold a current medical. Is it legal for me to do the
flight testing as a student pilot? Can a student pilot fly an experimental
aircraft at all?
A: Let's take the second part of your question first. There is no regulatory
prohibition on a student pilot (sport pilot or otherwise) flying an
experimental aircraft. Pilot requirements, privileges, and limitations are
found in 14 CFR Part 61, and student pilot privileges and limitations are
specifically found in subpart C. There is no specific limitation in that
section prohibiting a student pilot from flying an aircraft with an
experimental airworthiness certificate.
Now let's look at the first part of your question regarding a student pilot
(sport pilot or otherwise) flying an experimental aircraft during flight
testing. Certification requirements for the pilot in command of an
experimental aircraft are not found in the FAA regulations themselves but
rather in the operating limitations of the individual aircraft. These
operating limitations are issued by the FAA as a part of the aircraft's
airworthiness certificate and will vary depending on exactly what type of
airworthiness certificate the aircraft holds. For an amateur-built aircraft
such as your Pietenpol, the operating limitations will contain the following
statement:
"The pilot in command of this aircraft must hold a pilot certificate or an
authorized instructor's logbook endorsement. The pilot in command must meet
the requirements of 61.31(e), (f), (g), (h), (i), and (j) as appropriate."
Note that the pilot may hold a pilot certificate (which would include sport
pilot) or an authorized instructor's endorsement. This would open the door
for a properly endorsed student pilot (including a sport pilot student) to
fly the aircraft. The limitation makes no distinction between phase-one
flight testing and phase-two normal operations. This limitation is in place
for all operations. The limitation does go on to require any appropriate
endorsements called out by 14 CFR 61.31(e) though (j). The most common of
these endorsements are for tailwheel aircraft, high-performance aircraft,
and complex aircraft. The only endorsement applicable to the Pietenpol would
be the tailwheel endorsement, so the instructor would have to endorse the
student appropriately before allowing him or her to solo a tailwheel
aircraft as well as give the standard solo endorsement in order to be in
compliance with this operating limitation.
Remember that, if the student seeks to solo an aircraft that does not meet
the definition of a light-sport aircraft he/she would also need to hold a
3rd class FAA medical certificate. This would be the case whether the
aircraft holds a standard or special (such as experimental) airworthiness
certificate.
The question you did not ask, but one I will answer anyway, is whether it is
smart for a student pilot to perform the flight testing on an experimental
aircraft. This is the most important question, and the answer is, no, it is
not a good idea for a student pilot to perform flight testing on a new
amateur-built aircraft.
The purpose of flight testing is to verify the aircraft's handling
characteristics and make sure it does not have any issues that would affect
the safety of flight. Flight testing a new aircraft should be left to
experienced pilots who are familiar with the normal handling characteristics
of the aircraft being tested and are prepared to handle possible emergency
situations that might arise. A student pilot does not have the background
and experience to identify abnormal handling characteristics and may not be
prepared to handle an emergency situation if one should present itself. So
while it may be technically legal for a student pilot (sport pilot or
otherwise) to fly an aircraft during the initial flight-test period, I
strongly discourage this. Find an appropriate test pilot to perform the
flight tests on the aircraft, then find a qualified instructor to check you
out in the aircraft after it has been tested.
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: club planes? |
Ok. Perhaps a student pilot working toward sport pilot can legally fly an Exp a/b
aircraft during phase 1 with proper endorsements.
But, 61.87 states clearly that solo endorsements must be for a particular make
and model aircraft. So the solo training and endorsement for the student pilot
working toward sport pilot certificate to fly his Pietenpol must get that solo
training and endorsement in a Pietenpol, not some other type of tail dragger.
Since a phase 1 test flights in a Pietepol must be done solo, this student pilot
must get his solo training for a Pietenpol in another Pietenpol which is
not in phase 1 test phase. If he does not own the other Pietenpol then the instructor
can not charge for his instruction in that airplane, since it is an experimental
aircraft.
So as a practical matter, it will be somewhat difficult to make happen, not impossible
though. But definitely not wise for an inexperienced student pilot to
be doing any testing of any newly built experimental aircraft.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
Don't accept your dog's admiration as conclusive evidence that you are wonderful.
Ann Landers
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330078#330078
Message 19
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Kolbers:
Bill Belcher of Brent, AL, crashed his FS into the trees near West Blocton,
AL. He is in serious condition. It happened about 1730 yesterday. That's
all I know of the accident.
Bill flew out of Centerville Airport, a few miles from his home. I met him
by chance when I landed at Centerville on the way to Tuscaloosa, Alabama, a
few years ago.
http://www.faa.gov/data_research/accident_incident/preliminary_data/media/A_0207_N.txt
Then scroll down to accident number 9.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Firestar Crash |
Terrible news. Hope he pulls through
Thanks,
Daniel Myers
Cell: 407 920 7700
On Feb 7, 2011, at 10:04 PM, "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
>
> Kolbers:
>
> Bill Belcher of Brent, AL, crashed his FS into the trees near West Blocton,
> AL. He is in serious condition. It happened about 1730 yesterday. That's
> all I know of the accident.
>
> Bill flew out of Centerville Airport, a few miles from his home. I met him
> by chance when I landed at Centerville on the way to Tuscaloosa, Alabama, a
> few years ago.
>
> http://www.faa.gov/data_research/accident_incident/preliminary_data/media/A_0207_N.txt
>
> Then scroll down to accident number 9.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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