---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 02/07/11: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:07 AM - Re: club planes? (Thom Riddle) 2. 05:33 AM - Re: Re: club planes? (Dana Hague) 3. 05:36 AM - Re: Christmas Came Today (Kolb Aircraft) 4. 05:51 AM - Re: club planes? (Thom Riddle) 5. 06:31 AM - Re: Re: club planes? (Mike Welch) 6. 06:47 AM - Re: club planes? (Thom Riddle) 7. 08:01 AM - Re: Re: club planes? (Richard Girard) 8. 08:39 AM - Re: Re: club planes? (robert bean) 9. 09:50 AM - Re: bad news good news (ktnc420) 10. 12:55 PM - Re: Re: club planes? (Mike Welch) 11. 02:27 PM - Re: Re: club planes? (Malcolm Brubaker) 12. 03:37 PM - Re: Re: club planes? (Dana Hague) 13. 03:48 PM - Re: Re: club planes? (Dana Hague) 14. 03:50 PM - Re: Re: club planes? (Mike Welch) 15. 04:23 PM - Re: Re: club planes? (Dana Hague) 16. 04:26 PM - Re: Re: club planes? (Dana Hague) 17. 04:54 PM - Re: Re: club planes? (John Hauck) 18. 05:47 PM - Re: club planes? (Thom Riddle) 19. 07:06 PM - Firestar Crash (John Hauck) 20. 07:25 PM - Re: Firestar Crash (Daniel Myers) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:07:59 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: club planes? From: "Thom Riddle" When our group of three owned a Rans S6 Exp A/B and I had an active instructor's certificate, I considered this. I spoke to our insurance agent about it and learned the following. - Every member in the group must have an equity stake in the organization. Some "significant" equity at risk is required but need not be equal for all members. - The group instructor does not have to be a member. - Our insurance limited the total membership to 5 (at one time). Over that and the insurance policy would have to be for a commercial operation which would make the premiums on the order of 3 times as high. - Do not use the term "CLUB" because this implies (to insurance folks) a non-equity membership organization. - Students would have to pay an extra insurance premium until they received their full certificate (sport or private). So, this idea is viable and the aircraft insurable for small groups, but not for large clubs. -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY (9G0) Kolb Slingshot SS-021 Jabiru 2200A #1574 Tennessee Prop 64x32 Don't accept your dog's admiration as conclusive evidence that you are wonderful. Ann Landers Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329942#329942 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:33:39 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: club planes? At 08:05 AM 2/7/2011, Thom Riddle wrote: > >When our group of three owned a Rans S6 Exp A/B and I had an active >instructor's certificate, I considered this. I spoke to our insurance >agent about it... That addresses the insurance aspects and is useful information, but doesn't address the FAA (paid instruction in an experimental) aspect... although a similar logic _might_ apply. -Dana -- 2000 mockingbirds = two kilomockingbirds ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:36:35 AM PST US From: "Kolb Aircraft" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Christmas Came Today You are very welcome Rick. Travis Kolb CO. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Lewis" Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 6:50 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Christmas Came Today > > Today I received my long awaited plans for my MKIII xtra. I bought the > plane over three years ago and have been using a set of plans that were > for another type and a lot of things simply didn't make sense so there > were a lot of calls to Brian. He is a great guy to talk to and was always > able to answer any questions I had. The first set of plans were given to > me by Donnie and I was told to use them until they had the xtra plans > re-done. Brian bought the Kolb company and one of his first projects was > to make a good set of plans for the MKIII xtra. > > I have looked over these new plans and they are outstanding. They > came with over 600 pictures on cd and a notebook of detailed text and > drawings. I now also have the blueprints others have talked about. Brian > has done a wonderful job on these. They are some of the best set of > plans I have ever seen. I know this was a lot of work, he obviously took > great care in making them. > > Thank you Brian, Travis, and Dennis. :D > > -------- > Rick Lewis > > (VW Watercooled Engine) > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329666#329666 > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:51:56 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: club planes? From: "Thom Riddle" Dana, The FAA regs allow instruction in any experimental aircraft which is owned by the person receiving the instruction. My FSDO said that partial ownership or indirect ownership (share holder in a corporation that owns the aircraft) qualifies as long as there is an equity position in the aircraft. -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY (9G0) Kolb Slingshot SS-021 Jabiru 2200A #1574 Tennessee Prop 64x32 Don't accept your dog's admiration as conclusive evidence that you are wonderful. Ann Landers Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329948#329948 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:31:32 AM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: club planes? > The FAA regs allow instruction in any experimental aircraft which is owne d by the person receiving the instruction. > -------- > Thom Riddle Thom=2C & knowledgeable 'regs' guys=2C Your statement above is excellent information=2C but what about the situa tion where a plane is just given it's airworthiness certificate? I get the impression what you said is fine for a fully built=2C previous flown airplane=2C but what about a brand new one? Once a plane is finally finished=2C aren't you supposed to fly off a cert ain number of hours before someone can be in the plane also? How does that work? I never have clearly understood how this part works. After rereading your statement=2C I think I'm getting more confused. If a person had a CFI teach him to fly=2C OF COURSE he could be taught in ANY (legal) a irplane. My question is=3B How can a guy learn to fly his brand new=2C never flow n=2C just licenced=2C experimental airplane? Can he have an instructor go with him o n his maiden flight? Does anyone know how this works?? We've had a few recent incidents where lowtime Kolb pilots bent their pla nes (and themselves). What does the FAA regs say to address this problem? Thanks. Mike Welch MkIII ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:06 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: club planes? From: "Thom Riddle" Mike, You are correct. The phase one flying must be complete for more than required crew to be aboard. The builder of an experimental aircraft who is not already a certificated pilot must learn to fly like the rest of us, in another airplane that is legal for instruction. In the case of experimental aircraft that means one that is in phase 2 testing and owned, at least partially, by the wannabe pilot. -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY (9G0) Kolb Slingshot SS-021 Jabiru 2200A #1574 Tennessee Prop 64x32 Don't accept your dog's admiration as conclusive evidence that you are wonderful. Ann Landers Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329956#329956 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:01:15 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: club planes? From: Richard Girard Mike, You cannot take anyone along for any reason during phase 1 testing, UNLESS, you can show that that person is essential for some aspect of your test program and would have to be cleared by the FSDO that sets your test area and phase 1 testing requirements. Teaching you to fly your aircraft is not part of a test program of the aircraft. Your best bet is to get someone else, who has the experience, to do your initial test flights. Rick Girard On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 8:27 AM, Mike Welch wrote: > > The FAA regs allow instruction in any experimental aircraft which is > owned by the person receiving the instruction. > -------- > > Thom Riddle > > Thom, & knowledgeable 'regs' guys, > > Your statement above is excellent information, but what about the > situation > where a plane is just given it's airworthiness certificate? > I get the impression what you said is fine for a fully built, previous > flown > airplane, but what about a brand new one? > Once a plane is finally finished, aren't you supposed to fly off a > certain > number of hours before someone can be in the plane also? > How does that work? I never have clearly understood how this part works. > > After rereading your statement, I think I'm getting more confused. If a > person > had a CFI teach him to fly, OF COURSE he could be taught in ANY (legal) > airplane. > > My question is; How can a guy learn to fly his brand new, never flown, > just > licenced, experimental airplane? Can he have an instructor go with him on > his > maiden flight? Does anyone know how this works?? > > We've had a few recent incidents where lowtime Kolb pilots bent their > planes > (and themselves). What does the FAA regs say to address this problem? > > Thanks. > Mike Welch > MkIII > > * > > * > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:39:57 AM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: club planes? - good advice. And be sure his experience isn't limited to the Cessna 150/cherokee varieties. That is how I came to buy a "slightly" damaged cage assembly for my hybrid MkIII. Some assembly was required. BB On 7, Feb 2011, at 10:57 AM, Richard Girard wrote: > Mike, You cannot take anyone along for any reason during phase 1 testing, UNLESS, you can show that that person is essential for some aspect of your test program and would have to be cleared by the FSDO that sets your test area and phase 1 testing requirements. Teaching you to fly your aircraft is not part of a test program of the aircraft. Your best bet is to get someone else, who has the experience, to do your initial test flights. > > Rick Girard > > On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 8:27 AM, Mike Welch wrote: > > The FAA regs allow instruction in any experimental aircraft which is owned by the person receiving the instruction. > -------- > > Thom Riddle > > Thom, & knowledgeable 'regs' guys, > > Your statement above is excellent information, but what about the situation > where a plane is just given it's airworthiness certificate? > I get the impression what you said is fine for a fully built, previous flown > airplane, but what about a brand new one? > Once a plane is finally finished, aren't you supposed to fly off a certain > number of hours before someone can be in the plane also? > How does that work? I never have clearly understood how this part works. > > After rereading your statement, I think I'm getting more confused. If a person > had a CFI teach him to fly, OF COURSE he could be taught in ANY (legal) airplane. > > My question is; How can a guy learn to fly his brand new, never flown, just > licenced, experimental airplane? Can he have an instructor go with him on his > maiden flight? Does anyone know how this works?? > > We've had a few recent incidents where lowtime Kolb pilots bent their planes > (and themselves). What does the FAA regs say to address this problem? > > Thanks. > Mike Welch > MkIII > > > > get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > > -- > Zulu Delta > Mk IIIC > Thanks, Homer GBYM > > It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. > - Groucho Marx > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:50:35 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: bad news good news From: "ktnc420" Contact me via e-mail and I'll give address. Thanks! KT Mark III NC ktony20@hotmail.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329998#329998 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:55:29 PM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: club planes? Hi Rick=2C Thanks for the clarification. This is a confirmation of what I have alw ays understood. Mike Welch >Mike=2C You cannot take anyone along for any reason during phase 1 testing =2C UNLESS=2C you can show that that person is essential for some >aspect o f your test program and would have to be cleared by the FSDO that sets your test area and phase 1 testing requirements. >Teaching you to fly your airc raft is not part of a test program of the aircraft. Your best bet is to get someone else=2C who has the >experience=2C to do your initial test flights .. >Rick Girard ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:27:54 PM PST US From: Malcolm Brubaker Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: club planes? We have established the need. We have proven viability. We even have an apparent precedent. So, what next? An easy to follow format with all the "legal" jargon included for the average "layman" CFI or old BFI properly providing for that "equity position". Could such a "position" be covered by something so simple as a "damage deposit" on the aircraft?? Malcolm Brubaker Michigan Sport Pilot Repair LSRM-A, PPC, WS (989)513-3022 ________________________________ From: Mike Welch Sent: Mon, February 7, 2011 9:27:30 AM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: club planes? > The FAA regs allow instruction in any experimental aircraft which is owned by the person receiving the instruction. > -------- > Thom Riddle Thom, & knowledgeable 'regs' guys, Your statement above is excellent information, but what about the situation where a plane is just given it's airworthiness certificate? I get the impression what you said is fine for a fully built, previous flown airplane, but what about a brand new one? Once a plane is finally finished, aren't you supposed to fly off a certain number of hours before someone can be in the plane also? How does that work? I never have clearly understood how this part works. After rereading your statement, I think I'm getting more confused. If a person had a CFI teach him to fly, OF COURSE he could be taught in ANY (legal) airplane. My question is; How can a guy learn to fly his brand new, never flown, just licenced, experimental airplane? Can he have an instructor go with him on his maiden flight? Does anyone know how this works?? We've had a few recent incidents where lowtime Kolb pilots bent their planes (and themselves). What does the FAA regs say to address this problem? Thanks. Mike Welch MkIII ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:37:44 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: club planes? At 09:27 AM 2/7/2011, Mike Welch wrote: > Your statement above is excellent information, but what about the situation >where a plane is just given it's airworthiness certificate? > I get the impression what you said is fine for a fully built, previous > flown >airplane, but what about a brand new one? > Once a plane is finally finished, aren't you supposed to fly off a certain >number of hours before someone can be in the plane also? As others have said, the aircraft must be flown solo during the initial testing. I believe, however, than an instructor can sign a student off for solo in an aircraft still in Phase 1 testing... but of course the student would have to have prior instruction in something else, and the instructor confident in the student's ability to handle anything that might arise. -Dana -- The Definition of an Upgrade: Take old bugs out, put new ones in. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:48:02 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: club planes? At 05:19 PM 2/7/2011, Malcolm Brubaker wrote: >We have established the need. We have proven viability. We even have an >apparent precedent. So, what next? >An easy to follow format with all the "legal" jargon included for the >average "layman" CFI or old BFI properly providing for that "equity >position". Could such a "position" be covered by something so simple as a >"damage deposit" on the aircraft?? You could pitch it to the prospective student as a "damage deposit". However, I think it would have to be, in writing, a purchase of a "share" of the corporation owning the aircraft. -Dana -- Come to think of it, there already are a million monkeys at a million typewriters, and the Internet is _NOTHING_ like Shakespeare! ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:50:44 PM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: club planes? >As others have said=2C the aircraft must be flown solo during the initial testing. I believe=2C however=2C than an instructor can sign a student >of f for solo in an aircraft still in Phase 1 testing... but of course the stu dent would have to have prior instruction in something else=2C and >the ins tructor confident in the student's ability to handle anything that might ar ise. >Dana Dana=2C In a private conversation=2C Thom Riddle and I came to the opinion that a student pilot can NOT fly an experimental airplane in 'phase 1' testing. For clarification's sake=2C could someone look this up? Thanks=2C Mike W ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:23:59 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: club planes? At 06:47 PM 2/7/2011, Mike Welch wrote: > > In a private conversation, Thom Riddle and I came to the opinion >that a student pilot can NOT fly an experimental airplane in 'phase 1' >testing. > > For clarification's sake, could someone look this up? It may depend on the operating limitations which are, I believe, at the discretion of the FAA inspector or DAR. Back in the Bensen Gyrocopter days (pre 103), it was permissible for a helicopter CFI to sign a student off for solo in their brand new never flown single seat homebuilt gyro (since there were no 2-seat gyros and no gyro CFIs). I don't know what the deal is nowadays. -Dana -- Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:26:19 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: club planes? At 06:47 PM 2/7/2011, Mike Welch wrote: > > In a private conversation, Thom Riddle and I came to the opinion >that a student pilot can NOT fly an experimental airplane in 'phase 1' >testing. > > For clarification's sake, could someone look this up? It may depend on the operating limitations which are, I believe, at the discretion of the FAA inspector or DAR. Back in the Bensen Gyrocopter days (pre 103), it was permissible for a helicopter CFI to sign a student off for solo in their brand new never flown single seat homebuilt gyro (since there were no 2-seat gyros and no gyro CFIs). I don't know what the deal is nowadays. -Dana -- Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:54:05 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: club planes? For clarification's sake, could someone look this up? Thanks, Mike W Q: I've just finished building my Pietenpol, which is an experimental amateur-built aircraft that meets the LSA definition. I'm ready to begin the phase-one flight testing. I'm a student pilot working toward my sport pilot certificate and I don't hold a current medical. Is it legal for me to do the flight testing as a student pilot? Can a student pilot fly an experimental aircraft at all? A: Let's take the second part of your question first. There is no regulatory prohibition on a student pilot (sport pilot or otherwise) flying an experimental aircraft. Pilot requirements, privileges, and limitations are found in 14 CFR Part 61, and student pilot privileges and limitations are specifically found in subpart C. There is no specific limitation in that section prohibiting a student pilot from flying an aircraft with an experimental airworthiness certificate. Now let's look at the first part of your question regarding a student pilot (sport pilot or otherwise) flying an experimental aircraft during flight testing. Certification requirements for the pilot in command of an experimental aircraft are not found in the FAA regulations themselves but rather in the operating limitations of the individual aircraft. These operating limitations are issued by the FAA as a part of the aircraft's airworthiness certificate and will vary depending on exactly what type of airworthiness certificate the aircraft holds. For an amateur-built aircraft such as your Pietenpol, the operating limitations will contain the following statement: "The pilot in command of this aircraft must hold a pilot certificate or an authorized instructor's logbook endorsement. The pilot in command must meet the requirements of 61.31(e), (f), (g), (h), (i), and (j) as appropriate." Note that the pilot may hold a pilot certificate (which would include sport pilot) or an authorized instructor's endorsement. This would open the door for a properly endorsed student pilot (including a sport pilot student) to fly the aircraft. The limitation makes no distinction between phase-one flight testing and phase-two normal operations. This limitation is in place for all operations. The limitation does go on to require any appropriate endorsements called out by 14 CFR 61.31(e) though (j). The most common of these endorsements are for tailwheel aircraft, high-performance aircraft, and complex aircraft. The only endorsement applicable to the Pietenpol would be the tailwheel endorsement, so the instructor would have to endorse the student appropriately before allowing him or her to solo a tailwheel aircraft as well as give the standard solo endorsement in order to be in compliance with this operating limitation. Remember that, if the student seeks to solo an aircraft that does not meet the definition of a light-sport aircraft he/she would also need to hold a 3rd class FAA medical certificate. This would be the case whether the aircraft holds a standard or special (such as experimental) airworthiness certificate. The question you did not ask, but one I will answer anyway, is whether it is smart for a student pilot to perform the flight testing on an experimental aircraft. This is the most important question, and the answer is, no, it is not a good idea for a student pilot to perform flight testing on a new amateur-built aircraft. The purpose of flight testing is to verify the aircraft's handling characteristics and make sure it does not have any issues that would affect the safety of flight. Flight testing a new aircraft should be left to experienced pilots who are familiar with the normal handling characteristics of the aircraft being tested and are prepared to handle possible emergency situations that might arise. A student pilot does not have the background and experience to identify abnormal handling characteristics and may not be prepared to handle an emergency situation if one should present itself. So while it may be technically legal for a student pilot (sport pilot or otherwise) to fly an aircraft during the initial flight-test period, I strongly discourage this. Find an appropriate test pilot to perform the flight tests on the aircraft, then find a qualified instructor to check you out in the aircraft after it has been tested. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:47:58 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: club planes? From: "Thom Riddle" Ok. Perhaps a student pilot working toward sport pilot can legally fly an Exp a/b aircraft during phase 1 with proper endorsements. But, 61.87 states clearly that solo endorsements must be for a particular make and model aircraft. So the solo training and endorsement for the student pilot working toward sport pilot certificate to fly his Pietenpol must get that solo training and endorsement in a Pietenpol, not some other type of tail dragger. Since a phase 1 test flights in a Pietepol must be done solo, this student pilot must get his solo training for a Pietenpol in another Pietenpol which is not in phase 1 test phase. If he does not own the other Pietenpol then the instructor can not charge for his instruction in that airplane, since it is an experimental aircraft. So as a practical matter, it will be somewhat difficult to make happen, not impossible though. But definitely not wise for an inexperienced student pilot to be doing any testing of any newly built experimental aircraft. -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY (9G0) Kolb Slingshot SS-021 Jabiru 2200A #1574 Tennessee Prop 64x32 Don't accept your dog's admiration as conclusive evidence that you are wonderful. Ann Landers Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330078#330078 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:06:57 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Kolb-List: Firestar Crash Kolbers: Bill Belcher of Brent, AL, crashed his FS into the trees near West Blocton, AL. He is in serious condition. It happened about 1730 yesterday. That's all I know of the accident. Bill flew out of Centerville Airport, a few miles from his home. I met him by chance when I landed at Centerville on the way to Tuscaloosa, Alabama, a few years ago. http://www.faa.gov/data_research/accident_incident/preliminary_data/media/A_0207_N.txt Then scroll down to accident number 9. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:25 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Firestar Crash From: Daniel Myers Terrible news. Hope he pulls through Thanks, Daniel Myers Cell: 407 920 7700 On Feb 7, 2011, at 10:04 PM, "John Hauck" wrote: > > Kolbers: > > Bill Belcher of Brent, AL, crashed his FS into the trees near West Blocton, > AL. He is in serious condition. It happened about 1730 yesterday. That's > all I know of the accident. > > Bill flew out of Centerville Airport, a few miles from his home. I met him > by chance when I landed at Centerville on the way to Tuscaloosa, Alabama, a > few years ago. > > http://www.faa.gov/data_research/accident_incident/preliminary_data/media/A_0207_N.txt > > Then scroll down to accident number 9. > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.