---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 02/08/11: 1 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:51 AM - Re: Re: club planes? (Malcolm Brubaker) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:51:03 AM PST US From: Malcolm Brubaker Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: club planes? There has been some significant discussion on the topic of training in ELSA aircraft on some other forums which I am involved in. CGS Hawk, FLY UL, and LINKDIN are a few. The responses in those forums spurred me to write this in response. Please check out those forums if you are interested! sent to LINKDIN I want to keep the focus. What we will be doing is essentially taking hamburger and putting it all back together to make a steak. Ultra light flying is getting more difficult because of the non-availability of training. No one is going to give hours of training time and the use of an aircraft for free. Ultra lights therefore, literally, fly under the radar. Sport pilots can't do that quite so readily, but unfortunately, many are trying. While an ELSA built to SLSA standards is an appropriate aircraft, many experimentals simply do not fit the bill for appropriate training aircraft. I make this statement to have it understood that I do not advocate training in ALL experimental aircraft. Back to the focus of this discussion. I do not have the background I believe is required for developing the type of format needed here. I came up through the ranks of ultra lights as a self taught pilot. I received my BFI, trained several people in ultra lights, then received the training I needed when Sport Pilot came to be to transition to a sport pilot license. I have passed the first step - the FOI test - toward getting my CFI. But I do not have the legal background or the depth of knowledge regarding the FARs I feel is needed to produce this format in a viable and usable program for the Sport Pilot training arena. Mark, if you or someone else who is following this thread, or even a group of others, have the knowledge to pull this together, I would be willing to contribute what I can. This subject has spurred a lot of discussion as you know here and in other forums. Let's see if we can take it to a desired completion. There are some people who would be comfortable training with only a verbal contract. Others will require a written contract with the basics of cost and damage deposit and a disclaimer of liability in the event of an accident included. Still others will want a written contract in triplicate spelling out every possible nuance, required insurances, and a liability waiver signed by the trainee's family before they feel comfortable taking on the responsibility. And, yet others, will require a corporation development, corporate insurance, an aircraft meeting specified standards..... We now need to develop a format that can easily be adapted to allow each instructor to use their own level of comfort as a guide to what type of contract they want to use. >From hamburger .... to steak. Malcolm Brubaker Michigan Sport Pilot Repair LSRM-A, PPC, WS (989)513-3022 ________________________________ From: Malcolm Brubaker Sent: Mon, February 7, 2011 5:19:27 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: club planes? We have established the need. We have proven viability. We even have an apparent precedent. So, what next? An easy to follow format with all the "legal" jargon included for the average "layman" CFI or old BFI properly providing for that "equity position". Could such a "position" be covered by something so simple as a "damage deposit" on the aircraft?? Malcolm Brubaker Michigan Sport Pilot Repair LSRM-A, PPC, WS (989)513-3022 ________________________________ From: Mike Welch Sent: Mon, February 7, 2011 9:27:30 AM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: club planes? > The FAA regs allow instruction in any experimental aircraft which is owned by the person receiving the instruction. > -------- > Thom Riddle Thom, & knowledgeable 'regs' guys, Your statement above is excellent information, but what about the situation where a plane is just given it's airworthiness certificate? I get the impression what you said is fine for a fully built, previous flown airplane, but what about a brand new one? Once a plane is finally finished, aren't you supposed to fly off a certain number of hours before someone can be in the plane also? How does that work? I never have clearly understood how this part works. After rereading your statement, I think I'm getting more confused. If a person had a CFI teach him to fly, OF COURSE he could be taught in ANY (legal) airplane. My question is; How can a guy learn to fly his brand new, never flown, just licenced, experimental airplane? Can he have an instructor go with him on his maiden flight? Does anyone know how this works?? We've had a few recent incidents where lowtime Kolb pilots bent their planes (and themselves). What does the FAA regs say to address this problem? Thanks. Mike Welch MkIII ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.