---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 02/10/11: 28 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:19 AM - Re: Heavy Passengers (Pat Ladd) 2. 05:24 AM - Re: Re: club planes? (Malcolm Brubaker) 3. 06:18 AM - Re: Question for Richard Pike (winch attach point) (Richard Pike) 4. 07:04 AM - Re: Heavy Passengers (John Hauck) 5. 08:05 AM - Re: nose hoop (Kirby, Dennis Civ USAF AFMC AFNWC/EN) 6. 08:40 AM - Re: Heavy Passengers (Frankd) 7. 08:41 AM - Re: Heavy Passengers (Kirby, Dennis Civ USAF AFMC AFNWC/EN) 8. 08:57 AM - Life insurance (Lanny Fetterman) 9. 09:13 AM - Re: Heavy Passengers (racerjerry) 10. 09:28 AM - Re: Heavy Passengers (Pat Ladd) 11. 09:42 AM - Insurance (Rick Neilsen) 12. 10:09 AM - Re: Heavy Passengers (Rick Neilsen) 13. 10:54 AM - Re: Re: Heavy Passengers (Dana Hague) 14. 10:56 AM - Re: Heavy Passengers (Richard Pike) 15. 11:11 AM - Re: Heavy Passengers (Larry Cottrell) 16. 11:54 AM - Operating at maximum weight (Richard Girard) 17. 11:58 AM - Re: Heavy Passengers (robert bean) 18. 12:05 PM - Re: Re: Heavy Passengers (John Hauck) 19. 12:05 PM - Re: Operating at maximum weight (robert bean) 20. 12:05 PM - Re: Re: Heavy Passengers (Ellery Batchelder Jr) 21. 12:36 PM - Re: Operating at maximum weight (John Hauck) 22. 12:36 PM - Re: Operating at maximum weight (John Hauck) 23. 12:39 PM - Re: Re: Heavy Passengers (John Hauck) 24. 12:39 PM - Re: Operating at maximum weight (Rick Neilsen) 25. 12:42 PM - Re: Operating at maximum weight (Ellery Batchelder Jr) 26. 01:10 PM - IVO prop for Sale (Jason Omelchuck) 27. 01:55 PM - Re: Re: Heavy Passengers (Mike Welch) 28. 02:38 PM - Re: Heavy Passengers (Dana Hague) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:19:46 AM PST US From: "Pat Ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Heavy Passengers If I am going to push the fore or aft limit, I will push the aft limit. >> Thats interesting John. Whats the reasoning? I would have thought that tail heavy the most dangerous. When the speed comes back ,for landing, and you are low a heavy tail is asking for a stall. If you are nose heavy at least when the nose goes down your speed goes up and that gives you more elevator control. Hopefully. Your all up weight is way above ours. Not to say that the Kolb wont handle it but here if you are overweight then you are no longer a `microlight`. That means that your pilots license is not valid and therefore your insurance is invalid as well.. You cannot fly legally here without third party insurance so you are in trouble with the law as well as the CAA. Pat ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:24:34 AM PST US From: Malcolm Brubaker Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: club planes? Ok Group. This was posted on the CGS hawk forum. I want to say Thank You to =0ADanny Dezauche for a well thought out and candid statement. I agree. So , after =0Ayou all have read it, chime in here and let's figure out what we are going to do =0Aabout it! =0A=0A=0ATo whom it may interest =0A=0AI was told by the FAA that clubs were considered a commercial =0AEntity and there fore were only legal for training with "certified =0AAircraft". I was also told "primary" training such as a sport pilot =0ALicense has to be in a cer tified aircraft. I have been a member =0AOf the oldest club in mobile ala f or several years which used =0ACessnas etc for rent and training. These of course were certified =0AAircraft =0AWe here at cgs have lived with the lod a and club question for =0ASeveral years now. The belief and hope that trai ning can and will =0ABe allowed in Elsa aircraft has existed since the adve nt of the =0ALight sport category =0ACgs has only sold 2 slsa models since 2005 and none since =0AApril 2009 since I purchased the business. I too see the need =0AFor trainers of the ultralight type. Remember. Two seat ultral ights =0AWere only allowed by waiver for training purposes only from the st art =0AThe sale and use of two seaters outside the waiver was one of the re asons for =0Athe faa to =0Aimplement this grand experiment in the U.S.known as =0ASport pilot. The word from the FAA now is that they will not =0AAllo w any More lsa models into the market without prior =0AAudit by the FAA as to their qualifications and engineering =0AThose of us in the lsa market ca n also expect to be audited =0ABy the FAA In The near future to make sure w e are in compliance =0AWith all astm standards. =0AThe confusion over the e lsa training issue has had a detremental effect on this =0Asegment of aviat ion obviously. =0Ai want to make it clear what my personal and business pos ition is on this issue =0Aonce and for all i have also said this to the faa =0Awe as manufacturers cannot force people to buy slsa aircraft. however i f no =0Atrainers are available either slsa or elsa no new customers =0Aare trained or exposed to our aircraft. i would rather see training in elsa =0A aircraft instead of not at all and that is where we are today =0Awe can bui ld slsa's all day long but if no one buys them whats the point an =0Aelsa a ircraft built by an individual puts most legal ramifications =0Aon the owne r builder not the factory =0Aso i support any measures that will get this s egment going and training again =0A=0Ahowever faa is not happy with the res ults of their audit on the lsa industry =0Awhich was done over the past two years. So we manufacturers await =0Athe future with some fear of the unkno wn. =0A=0Ain a further effort to get slsa trainers out in the field cgs is putting on a =0Asun n fun sale which will be posted on the web site =0A=0Ai implore the group to choose someone whom is respected among you to contact the =0A=0Afaa and report on their findings =0Ai dont expect anyone here to take my word for it and i prefer another voice to =0Aconcur what ive said =0A=0Asincerely =0Adanny dezauche =0Apresident/cgs aviation=C2-=0A=0A=0A =C2-Malcolm Brubaker =0AMichigan Sport=0APilot Repair =0ALSRM-A, PPC, WS =0A(989)513-3022 =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Th om Riddle =0ATo: kolb-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Mon, F ebruary 7, 2011 8:49:22 AM=0ASubject: Kolb-List: Re: club planes?=0A=0A--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" =0A=0ADana, =0AThe FAA regs allow instruction in any experimental aircraft which is own ed by =0Athe person receiving the instruction. My FSDO said that partial ow nership or =0Aindirect ownership (share holder in a corporation that owns t he aircraft) =0Aqualifies as long as there is an equity position in the air craft.=0A=0A--------=0AThom Riddle=0ABuffalo, NY (9G0)=0AKolb Slingshot SS- 021=0AJabiru 2200A #1574=0ATennessee Prop 64x32=0A=0A=0ADon't accept your d og's admiration as conclusive evidence that you are =0Awonderful.=9D =C2-=0A=94Ann Landers=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A =0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329948#329948=0A=0A=0A=0A =====0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:18:27 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Question for Richard Pike (winch attach point) From: "Richard Pike" Took these this morning, the swivel tail wheel is on the FSII, the black and blue one (needs painting, huh?) is a Sorrell Hyperlight tail wheel on the MKIII. (The groove in the middle of the tire is because of a stone that got caught there and scored the solid rubber tire) The yoke for the MKIII is just a bent piece of aluminum flat stock with a couple holes in it. It slips over axle extensions that protrude from either side of the tailwheel yoke, and is tightened or removed with a thumbscrew. So it is removable from the airplane. The full swivel tailwheel on the FSII is the kind that Kolb sells, took two flat washers and welded a 3/16" bent rod to them to make the yoke extension, the washer on one side has two 3/16" rod extensions welded on to keep it from flopping up or down. It stays on the airplane. We have used this method for years to drag the airplanes up the hill into the hangar. I had to replace the tailwheel strut on the MKIII last year when it broke at the lower through bolt, but I seriously doubt that pulling the airplane into the hangar by the tailwheel was a factor. Since this is a hangar situation and not a trailer situation, we are using 100' of nylon rope to pull with. Just pick up the loose end (which has a loop in it) stick a screwdriver through the loop, and start walking backwards. When the tailwheel drops over the lip at the end of the track, stop. And that lip on the track keeps it from rolling back out of the hangar. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330420#330420 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1190143_large_120.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1190144_large_109.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1190150_large_209.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1190157_large_591.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1190168_large_192.jpg ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:16 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Heavy Passengers Thats interesting John. Whats the reasoning? I would have thought that tail heavy the most dangerous. When the speed comes back ,for landing, and you are low a heavy tail is asking for a stall. If you are nose heavy at least when the nose goes down your speed goes up and that gives you more elevator control. Hopefully. Your all up weight is way above ours. Not to say that the Kolb wont handle it but here if you are overweight then you are no longer a `microlight`. That means that your pilots license is not valid and therefore your insurance is invalid as well.. You cannot fly legally here without third party insurance so you are in trouble with the law as well as the CAA. Pat Patrick L/Gang: My MKIII is placarded for 1,200 lbs maximum gross weight based on modifications the manufacturer (me) made during construction to satisfy me, the FAA, and my insurance company. I have difficulty making the Kolb paper weight and balance work in actual flight. I flew my MKIII with a 12 lb Maule 8" Tundra Tailwheel for several years. This blows the paper weight and balance away. My airplane is not supposed to fly on paper, yet it flew quite well. I stalled it in every attitude I could think of and the nose always dropped. I don't like the idea of running out of elevator before the wing stalls. The Kolb's high pusher configuration compounds the forward cg with a heavy passenger, especially on take off and in the event of a go around. I have never had the courage to stall a MKIII with a very heavy passenger, so I really do not know how the aircraft would respond. I don't have to worry about that anymore because I won't be flying large passengers in my aircraft, and I don't fly demonstration flights for Kolb anymore. I have stalled my MKIII with full flaps and a passenger on board. To my surprise, the elevator stalled when I attempted to recover. That'll get your attention. Have no statistics to back me up, but there seem to be many fatal Kolb crashes while carrying passengers. I don't know how valid that is. I have always flown with a recovery parachute. ;-) john h Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:05:21 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: nose hoop From: "Kirby, Dennis Civ USAF AFMC AFNWC/EN" << Kolb guys . Is there a big need for a nose hoop? Are a lot of guys standing their planes up on their noses a lot? Mike Welch >> Hi, Mike - As you are seeing from the replies, opinions on the Kolb nose hoop are varied. Here's my story, from last year: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=75581 &highlight=nose+hoop And so, MY opinion is, I was glad I had it - saved me from scraping up the bottom of my fiberglass nose cone. Dennis Kirby Mark-3, 912ul (flew it last week in 16 degree F weather) Sandia Park, NM ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:40:10 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Heavy Passengers From: "Frankd" Hi Guys, responding to Pats comment about weight and insurance, do aircraft in the US require insurance to legally fly?? I know you have to have car insurance but I can't find anything that says you have to have aircraft insurance. Also, has anyone had luck getting life insurance when you fly an experimental?? (My wife REALLY would like this!) I can get life but only if I fly certified aircraft and no ACRO.. Looking for answers. FrankD MkIII Xtra, Now legally airworthy. Soon to fly. no more excuses. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330451#330451 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:41:38 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Heavy Passengers From: "Kirby, Dennis Civ USAF AFMC AFNWC/EN" << speaking of passengers I have a friend that wants a ride in my MK3c and he is 350 lbs im not sure I should even attempt it, ... the most I have had with me is 250 lbs and 20 gallons fuel Ellery Batchelder Jr. >> Ellery - When I calculated the Weight & Balance for my Mark-3, it came out that the MOST heavy passenger I could "safely" carry was 250 lbs. This was based on my weight of 190 lbs, and minimal fuel (less than a quarter tank). In this configuration, the CG was at its forward-most allowable point, as specified by Homer. It's not a gross weight limitation - it's an out-of-CG issue. I suspect that you are correct - taking a 350 lb passenger in your Mark-3 might be a tad risky. Might even put your Kolb at the brink of destruction. Dennis Kirby Mark-III N93DK, "Magic Bike" New Mexico ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:57:16 AM PST US From: Lanny Fetterman Subject: Kolb-List: Life insurance Frank and All, I bought life Ins. through the EAA. They were the only one that I could find, that covered you, if you were PIC. However, everything must be legal. Both the aircraft and the pilot, or the coverage is void. Lanny N598LF ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:13:53 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Heavy Passengers From: "racerjerry" You do not have to say NO. Do him and yourself a great favor and rent a 172 for an hour and take him up. Or give him a present and BUY him a sightseeing flight at your local airport and go with him. Good advice about No flaps and increasing landing speed; but with such a large percentage change in gross weight and CG, even if successful, you will be operating in very unfamiliar and dangerous territory. Flight characteristics will change greatly, at which point you will become a test pilot with a large frightened passenger who is most likely restricting stick movement. -------- Jerry King Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330462#330462 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:28:52 AM PST US From: "Pat Ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Heavy Passengers there seem to be many fatal Kolb crashes while carrying passengers. >> Do you think that by some extraordinary chance that might be telling us that there is something in weight and balance after all? Cheers Pat (off to Tenerife and some sunshine at sparrows tomorrow. See you in a week) ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:42:03 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Insurance From: Rick Neilsen I have been flying legally for thirty years, ultralights (no license), general aviation (private pilot), and now LSA (private pilot without medical) with no insurance. Quite a few life insurance companies don't have any flying exemption. I once checked the wording on a term life policy I had that my work provided and there was no stipulation against flying. I have a friend that is a insurance agent. His comment is if you ask a agent they are very well trained to answer in a way that will indicate you need more insurance. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Frankd wrote: > > Hi Guys, > > responding to Pats comment about weight and insurance, do aircraft in the > US require insurance to legally fly?? > > I know you have to have car insurance but I can't find anything that says > you have to have aircraft insurance. > > Also, has anyone had luck getting life insurance when you fly an > experimental?? (My wife REALLY would like this!) I can get life but only if > I fly certified aircraft and no ACRO.. > > Looking for answers. > FrankD > > MkIII Xtra, > Now legally airworthy. > Soon to fly. no more excuses. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330451#330451 > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:09:01 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Heavy Passengers From: Rick Neilsen I have been flying quite a bit near or slightly over gross weight lately. Yes the plane does fly differently the most concerning is the bad combination of high power and flaps. I use flaps on landing but I tell myself and my passenger that if I have to add power for a go around that all flaps must be retracted. With that said my personal feeling is that Kolb accidents are mostly caused by passengers panicking on approach to landing. I have had a number of people get excited and later comment that I didn't warn them strongly enough. The normal Kolb approach is a bit unsettling to everyone and even more so to private pilots. The best advice I can give is to make it clear what the approach will look like and to warn you passenger to never never touch the controls without permission. Also be ready to use your elbow as much as necessary to enforce that rule. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 12:25 PM, Pat Ladd wrote: > > there seem to be many fatal Kolb crashes while carrying passengers. >> > > Do you think that by some extraordinary chance that might be telling us > that there is something in weight and balance after all? > > Cheers > > Pat (off to Tenerife and some sunshine at sparrows tomorrow. See you in a > week) > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:54:55 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Heavy Passengers At 11:37 AM 2/10/2011, Frankd wrote: > >responding to Pats comment about weight and insurance, do aircraft in the >US require insurance to legally fly?? > >I know you have to have car insurance but I can't find anything that says >you have to have aircraft insurance. There is no legal requirements for insurance, but many airports require insurance for aircraft based there. -Dana -- I only drink to make other people more interesting. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:56:46 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Heavy Passengers From: "Richard Pike" John Hauck wrote: > > > I have stalled my MKIII with full flaps and a passenger on board. To my > surprise, the elevator stalled when I attempted to recover. That'll get > your attention. > john h > Titus, Alabama You nailed that one. Several years ago I gap sealed my elevator to the horizontal stab in an effort to eliminate that particular problem. At the same time, added VG's to the lower forward horizontal stab. Should have done them one at a time to see which was the most effective. Not sure which of those 2 things helped the most, but together it has made a huge improvement in elevator authority with flaps and a passenger. (massive forward CG) Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330482#330482 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:11:30 AM PST US From: "Larry Cottrell" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Heavy Passengers "With that said my personal feeling is that Kolb accidents are mostly caused by passengers panicking on approach to landing. I have had a number of people get excited and later comment that I didn't warn them strongly enough. The normal Kolb approach is a bit unsettling to everyone and even more so to private pilots. " I bought a Mark III when I was taking my P.Pilots training. I talked my young instructor into going around with me to sign off on it so that I could fly it with a Student lic. Every thing was fine and when I lined up for short final at 1000 feet above the ground, I put in full flaps when I was almost over the numbers, brought it back to a bit of a mush and landed on the numbers with no incident other than having to pull my instructor out of the wing gap seal. He did sign me off, but would not fly with me any more. Puss! Pat attempted to link heavy passengers and crashes with a weight and balance issue. Much too simple an answer, most likely it would be due to not taking into account the different flight requirements with a heavy passenger in the front. Larry Note: If you forward this email, please delete the forwarding history, which includes my email address. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:54:00 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Operating at maximum weight From: Richard Girard You guys remember that part of your operating instructions that says you'll test the aircraft at max gross weight while in phase 1 testing? You know, buy four bags of sand or cement and put them in the passenger seat and test in all configurations and put this statement in the aircraft's log book, =93I certify that the prescribed flight test hours have been completed and the aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all maneuvers to be executed, has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features, and is safe for operation. The flight test was completed under the following conditions: *maximum operating weight*, style/set of wing or sail, maximum demonstrated airspeed , and minimum demonstrated stall speed.=94? You all did that, right? By this discussion, I'd say not. Rick Girard -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:58:31 AM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Heavy Passengers That sounds interesting. -anybody else have stories about passengers invading the flight controls? Personally I have never experienced anything like that and I have given a lot of free rides. I did have one guy get so distraught at being too far away from mother earth that I immediately turned downwind and landed. Thankfully he didn't grab anything but the pipes in the windshield. I think full flaps with a passenger in a MkIII is not necessary and possibly hazardous. Now, getting on in years, I think I will discourage would be riders. BB On 10, Feb 2011, at 1:02 PM, Rick Neilsen wrote: > I have been flying quite a bit near or slightly over gross weight lately. Yes the plane does fly differently the most concerning is the bad combination of high power and flaps. I use flaps on landing but I tell myself and my passenger that if I have to add power for a go around that all flaps must be retracted. > > With that said my personal feeling is that Kolb accidents are mostly caused by passengers panicking on approach to landing. I have had a number of people get excited and later comment that I didn't warn them strongly enough. The normal Kolb approach is a bit unsettling to everyone and even more so to private pilots. The best advice I can give is to make it clear what the approach will look like and to warn you passenger to never never touch the controls without permission. Also be ready to use your elbow as much as necessary to enforce that rule. > Rick Neilsen > Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC > On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 12:25 PM, Pat Ladd wrote: > > there seem to be many fatal Kolb crashes while carrying passengers. >> > > Do you think that by some extraordinary chance that might be telling us that there is something in weight and balance after all? > > Cheers > > Pat (off to Tenerife and some sunshine at sparrows tomorrow. See you in a week) > bscription, > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > Matt Dralle, List Admin. > ==== > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:05:11 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Heavy Passengers You nailed that one. Several years ago I gap sealed my elevator to the horizontal stab in an effort to eliminate that particular problem. At the same time, added VG's to the lower forward horizontal stab. Should have done them one at a time to see which was the most effective. Not sure which of those 2 things helped the most, but together it has made a huge improvement in elevator authority with flaps and a passenger. (massive forward CG) Richard Pike Richard P/Kolbers: > I have stalled my MKIII with full flaps and a passenger on board. To my > surprise, the elevator stalled when I attempted to recover. That'll get > your attention. > john h Maybe I should correct the above and further explain my maneuver with full flaps that caused the elevator to stall. I was not performing a full flap stall, but a dive with full flaps, idle power, and an abrupt pull out when we reached 85 mph. Was down at Sun and Fun demonstrating my MKIII to a reporter for an aviation magazine. We were having a good time wringing out most of the neat little things a MKIII is capable of doing safely, when I got the idea to try something I had never done before. That was to pull in full flaps, idle power, push the nose over and dive to 85 mph. At 85 mph pull out of the dive abruptly. When I pulled the stick back abruptly the MKIII kept heading earthward with the elevator fully stalled. Surprise, surprise! First and only time I have had the elevator stall on my MKIII. I can not think of a scenario I could get myself into that would result in a replay of that maneuver. I normally use full flaps for every landing, unless it is really turbulent and/or a severe cross wind, and have no issues with elevator authority. Nope, not ready for VGs under my tail. ;-) john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:05:16 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Operating at maximum weight Rick, I didn't enter the specific exercise in my log book but I did strap several 80 lb salt bags in the passenger seat for a free excursion before I took a passenger. I didn't want to hurt the salt bags. BB On 10, Feb 2011, at 2:29 PM, Richard Girard wrote: > You guys remember that part of your operating instructions that says you'll test the aircraft at max gross weight while in phase 1 testing? You know, buy four bags of sand or cement and put them in the passenger seat and test in all configurations and put this statement in the aircraft's log book, =93I certify that the prescribed flight test hours have been completed and the aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all maneuvers to be executed, has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features, and is safe for operation. The flight test was completed under the following conditions: maximum operating weight, style/set of wing or sail, maximum demonstrated airspeed, and minimum demonstrated stall speed.=94? You all did that, right? By this discussion, I'd say not. > > Rick Girard > > -- > Zulu Delta > Mk IIIC > Thanks, Homer GBYM > > It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. > - Groucho Marx > > > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:05:52 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Heavy Passengers From: Ellery Batchelder Jr I have calculated this again it has been a while and I agree with you a Fa t man was not meant to fly in a small airplane, however if i fill my 20 ga llon fuel tank it would help the CG issue but then send the weight over th e Gross limit so I will tell him if he wants to fly to leave 100 lbs home or buy a ticket on a Delta Flight Ellery Batchelder Jr. -----Original Message----- From: Kirby, Dennis Civ USAF AFMC AFNWC/EN Sent: Thu, Feb 10, 2011 11:19 am Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Heavy Passengers << speaking of passengers I have a friend that wants a ride in my MK3c and he is 350 lbs im not sure I should even attempt it, the most I have had with me is 250 lbs and 20 gallons fuel Ellery Batchelder Jr. >> Ellery =93 When I calculated the Weight & Balance for my Mark-3, it came out that the MOST heavy passenger I could =9Csafely=9D carry was 250 lbs. This was based on my weight of 190 lbs, and minimal fuel (less than a qu arter tank). In this configuration, the CG was at its forward-most allowa ble point, as specified by Homer. It=99s not a gross weight limitat ion =93 it=99s an out-of-CG issue. I suspect that you are correct =93 taking a 350 lb passenger in your Mark-3 might be a tad risky. Might even put your Kolb at the brink of de struction. Dennis Kirby Mark-III N93DK, =9CMagic Bike=9D New Mexico ======================== =========== -= - The Kolb-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:36:20 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Operating at maximum weight You guys remember that part of your operating instructions that says you'll test the aircraft at max gross weight while in phase 1 testing? Rick Girard Rick G/Kolbers: Sorry about the previous. I fired a blank. ;-( Was that 91.319? I have trouble remembering 5 minutes ago, much less when I test flew my MKIII. ;-) john h ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:36:20 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Operating at maximum weight You guys remember that part of your operating instructions that says you'll test the aircraft at max gross weight while in phase 1 testing? You know, buy four bags of sand or cement and put them in the passenger seat and test in all configurations and put this statement in the aircraft's log book, I certify that the prescribed flight test hours have been completed and the aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all maneuvers to be executed, has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features, and is safe for operation. The flight test was completed under the following conditions: *maximum operating weight*, style/set of wing or sail, maximum demonstrated airspeed, and minimum demonstrated stall speed.? You all did that, right? By this discussion, I'd say not. Rick Girard -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:39:35 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Heavy Passengers Ellery: This is bc. You made me laugh out loud when I read your comment below. Maybe I should keep quiet and not share my crazy experiences with these little airplanes. I seem to get folks upset easily. ;-) How are you all making it up in iceland? It never got above 32F here today with snow last night. john ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ellery Batchelder Jr" Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2011 2:03 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Heavy Passengers I have calculated this again it has been a while and I agree with you a Fat man was not meant to fly in a small airplane, however if i fill my 20 gallon fuel tank it would help the CG issue but then send the weight over the Gross limit so I will tell him if he wants to fly to leave 100 lbs home or buy a ticket on a Delta Flight Ellery Batchelder Jr. -----Original Message----- From: Kirby, Dennis Civ USAF AFMC AFNWC/EN Sent: Thu, Feb 10, 2011 11:19 am Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Heavy Passengers << speaking of passengers I have a friend that wants a ride in my MK3c and he is 350 lbs im not sure I should even attempt it, . the most I have had with me is 250 lbs and 20 gallons fuel Ellery Batchelder Jr. >> Ellery - When I calculated the Weight & Balance for my Mark-3, it came out that the MOST heavy passenger I could "safely" carry was 250 lbs. This was based on my weight of 190 lbs, and minimal fuel (less than a quarter tank). In this configuration, the CG was at its forward-most allowable point, as specified by Homer. It's not a gross weight limitation - it's an out-of-CG issue. I suspect that you are correct - taking a 350 lb passenger in your Mark-3 might be a tad risky. Might even put your Kolb at the brink of destruction. Dennis Kirby Mark-III N93DK, "Magic Bike" New Mexico =================================== -= - The Kolb-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List - -=========================================================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -=========================================================== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -=========================================================== ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:39:57 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Operating at maximum weight From: Rick Neilsen Rick Yes I did load my plane up with salt bags to gross weight and test flew it. The suprising thing was my lack of understanding how much further forward the CG was with a real person than I had figured with the salt bags. The other suprising think was how much worse it gets with a high thrust line an d the extra thrust with the redrive. I did three different maximum weight flight tests with different engine configurations. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 2:29 PM, Richard Girard wrote : > You guys remember that part of your operating instructions that says you' ll > test the aircraft at max gross weight while in phase 1 testing? You know, > buy four bags of sand or cement and put them in the passenger seat and te st > in all configurations and put this statement in the aircraft's log book, =93I > certify that the prescribed flight test hours have been completed and the > aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and > throughout all maneuvers to be executed, has no hazardous operating > characteristics or design features, and is safe for operation. The > flight test was completed under the following conditions: *maximum > operating weight*, style/set of wing or sail, maximum demonstrated > airspeed, and minimum demonstrated stall speed.=94? You all did that, rig ht? > By this discussion, I'd say not. > > Rick Girard > > -- > Zulu Delta > Mk IIIC > Thanks, Homer GBYM > > It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhapp y. > - Groucho Marx > > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:42:00 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Operating at maximum weight From: Ellery Batchelder Jr Rick I didn't build this particular airplane in fact I am the third owner of it ,it was not my job to do all this testing so I am using the numbers that have been scribed in stone in the paperwork that was included with it Ellery Batchelder Jr. -----Original Message----- From: Richard Girard Sent: Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:29 pm Subject: Kolb-List: Operating at maximum weight You guys remember that part of your operating instructions that says you'l l test the aircraft at max gross weight while in phase 1 testing? You know , buy four bags of sand or cement and put them in the passenger seat and test in all configurations and put this statement in the aircraft's log book, =9CI certify that the prescribed flight test hours have been completed and the aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all maneuvers to be executed, has no hazardous oper ating characteristics or design features, and is safe for operation. The flight test was completed under the following conditions: maximum operat ing weight, style/set of wing or sail, maximum demonstrated airspeed, and minimum demonstrated stall speed.=9D? You all did that, right? By this discussion, I'd say not. Rick Girard -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy .. - Groucho Marx ======================== =========== -= - The Kolb-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 01:10:34 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: IVO prop for Sale From: "Jason Omelchuck" I have put it up on barnstormers. I am asking $800 OBO IVO 3 bladed in flight adjustable Ultralight Model Propller. 35" to 70" pitch range. 72" diameter (may be cut down to as short as 48" diameter). Includes Spinner. Also includes spacer blocks so you may use it as a 2 bladed propeller. New price is $1,200 without the spinner and blocks. It can be used on a Rotax 2 stroke in the pusher application or Rotax 912's in the tractor application (it might need some kind of adapter from IVO to make it fit the 912 bolt pattern) Jason Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330519#330519 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:55:58 PM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Heavy Passengers > Ellery: > > This is bc. > > You made me laugh out loud when I read your comment below. > > Maybe I should keep quiet and not share my crazy experiences with these > little airplanes. I seem to get folks upset easily. =3B-) > > How are you all making it up in iceland? It never got above 32F here toda y > with snow last night. > > john John=2C Saying it's bc=2C don't necessarily make it so!! Trust me=2C I know thes e things!! : ) Mike Welch ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 02:38:02 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Heavy Passengers At 02:53 PM 2/10/2011, robert bean wrote: >That sounds interesting. -anybody else have stories about passengers >invading the flight controls? Not a Kolb, but years ago I had a girlfriend whose mother had been a glider CFI; she owned the school. On a flight with a student, the tow rope broke on takeoff. Just like an engine out in a powered plane, the procedure is to land straight ahead, which she attempted to do. The student panicked, and being male and much stronger than her, overpowered her on the controls and tried to turn back. About what you'd expect, stall/spin, crash, injuries. The student (who was a doctor and had money for lawyers) sued her, claimed the turning back was _her_ idea (she was, of course, legally PIC). She couldn't afford to fight it and lost her business. When I met her she was flying for some two bit commuter line. -Dana -- Alpha test version: too buggy to release. Beta test version: still too buggy to release. Release 1.0: alternate pronounciation of beta test version. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.