---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 02/12/11: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:46 AM - Re: Re: Heavy Passengers (John Hauck) 2. 07:46 AM - Re: Re: Heavy Passengers (John Hauck) 3. 08:49 AM - Re: Re: club planes? (Malcolm Brubaker) 4. 11:15 AM - Re: club planes? (Ralph B) 5. 11:21 AM - changing a posting (Ralph B) 6. 11:37 AM - Re: changing a posting (william sullivan) 7. 12:33 PM - Re: changing a posting (chris davis) 8. 01:00 PM - Re: changing a posting (Ralph B) 9. 01:30 PM - Re: Heavy Passengers (Jason Omelchuck) 10. 02:55 PM - Re: Re: changing a posting (Charlie England) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:46:12 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Heavy Passengers When I was flying off my 40 hours I loaded up the cockpit with a couple of 80# bags of cement and tested the forward limit, I then strapped some diving weights around the tail to test the aft limit. Jason Jason O/Kolbers:\ John Williamson did the same thing you did during testing of his Kolbra, only he took it a bit further. John kept increasing weight until the Kolbra would not fly, either forward or aft excess cg. During one test of the rear CG limit, John stalled the Kolbra to discover it would not recover from the stall. Full power was required to get out of the stall and fly again. I sure miss my flying buddy. john h MKIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:46:12 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Heavy Passengers Several heavy pilot vignettes from of old: Dennis Dennis S/Kolbers: Thanks for sharing your stories. I am looking forward to many more. There is a lot of Kolb history, but most of it is in our memories and not on paper. What I thought would remain vivid in my memory yesterday is not necessarily so today. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:49:13 AM PST US From: Malcolm Brubaker Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: club planes? for those following this thread in-depth and looking toward a solution, ple ase =0Aread this article and give your feed-back.=C2- also, looking into templates for =0Aagreements...=0A=0ACo-Ownership: Navigating Airplane Partn erships -=C2-Plane=C2-& Pilot...=0A21 Oct 2008=C2- This is t he simplest=C2-multiple-owner=C2-arrangement.=C2- There are =0Aseveral agreement=C2-templates=C2-online (for example, try=C2-AOPA 's=C2- indirect operating =0Acosts like pilot=C2-training, han gars, etc.=C2-=0A=C2-Malcolm Brubaker =0AMichigan Sport=0APilo t Repair =0ALSRM-A, PPC, WS=0A(989)513-3022 =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________ ________________=0AFrom: Charlie England =0ATo: ko lb-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Fri, February 11, 2011 2:58:00 PM=0ASubject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: club planes?=0A=0AOn 2/11/2011 11:01 AM, Malcolm Brubake r wrote: =0AAnother point of view, same basic subject - flight training in ELSA, a different =0Aconcept of dealing with it.=0A>Roger Mills has posted this following a conversation with EAA.=0A>=0A>Date: Thu, February 10, 2011 11:58 am=0A>To: =0A>=0A>Per EAA---(as of 1 hour a go)=0A>An E is an E is an E! Regardless of whether it is kit or plans built , EAB or =0A>ELSA.=0A>An experimental category aircraft of any type cannot be formally rented out or =0A>used by anyone "for hire" in any way!!!!!=0A> Cost sharing for 'friendly' use by other than the owner is OK to a point--b e =0A>ready to prove it.=0A>A group of people can form a "club" as an LLC, corp or partnership for the =0A>purpose of building, owning and flying any experimental aircraft.=0A>The orgainization that functions as a fund raiser must be a separate entity from =0A>the one that owns the experimental airc raft.=0A>The members or partners can be the same people, BUT, separate orga nizational =0A>chart etc.=0A>(Even EAA chapters, as the rules stand now, ca n build but not own an aircraft. =0A>This is being worked on to correct.) =0A>Plans or scratch built automatically qualify for the "51%", only approv ed kits =0A>qualify, ELSA can be any % but exacly like the SLSA.=0A>A repai rmans certificate for an EAB can be issued to only one person for any =0A>s pecific aircraft by N number only.=0A>A repairmans certificate for an ELSA requires the course and MAY include the =0A>model???=0A>Without a repairman s certificate only an AP or better can sign the annual.=0A>Any flight instr uctor can be paid to teach in any experimental aircraft as long =0A>as they have the qualifications necessary.=0A>The flight instructor may or may not be an owner/partner in the aircraft.=0A>Flight instruction may be given to the level allowed by the equipment installed =0A>in the aircraft.=0A>(I th ink this last one means that you can get full IFR if the aircraft has the =0A>stuff)=0A>The individual owner/builder of a two place aircraft, who has received an N =0A>number for that aircraft, is the only one who can "teach " anyone else to fly =0A>that aircraft until an otherwise qualified flight instructor has been "taught".=0A>(I am not sure how to really works--on the surface it seems to mean that if you =0A>built it, flew off the restrictio ns and got an N number-you are a qualified =0A>flight instructor for that a ircraft only?????, and can be paid to teach in that =0A>aircraft???)=0A>(I was specifically told that since flight instruction is desired--the FAA has =0A>not restricted the ability of a flight instructor to teach in an exper imental- =0A>--EAB or ELSA. You just CANNOT charge a fee for the aircraft i tself.)=0A>(I was also told that insurance is problematic in an experimenta l of any =0A>kind--Falcon insurance does it---rates are much different for a Christen Eagle =0A>vs a Pete etc. I have not spoken with them.)=0A>=0A>Ag ain, Per the EAA. (my comments)=0A>=0A>=C2-One small item to add--my comm ent---based on the sum of the conversation and =0A>not specifically stated: =0A>=0A>The way the rule is written it gets real grey if one partner pays m ore than his =0A>or her share of the hourly cost. Say 6 people form a partn ership to build an =0A>experimental aircraft---If one partner pays the enti re cost of a one hour flight =0A>then the others partners benefit. Confused me for a while but I can see where =0A>the FAA may see that as 5 owners re nting the aircraft to the sixth partner. I =0A>suspect that this kind of th ing is why the FAA frouns on "club" ownership of an =0A>experimental.=0A>Po sted by : Roger Mills on UL forum=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2-Malcolm Brubaker =0A>Mic higan Sport=0A>Pilot Repair =0A>LSRM-A, PPC, WS=0A>(989)513-3022=0A>A coupl e of thoughts:=0A=0Aquote=0AThe individual owner/builder of a two place air craft, who has received an N =0Anumber for that aircraft, is the only one w ho can "teach" anyone else to fly =0Athat aircraft until an otherwise quali fied flight instructor has been "taught".=0Aunquote=0A=0AI've never seen th at in the form that it's written. I wonder if it is specific =0Ato the 'exe mption' for transition training in a homebuilt experimental. That =0Aexempt ion isn't for what most would consider flight training; it's an exemption =0Ato provide *transition* instruction for a qualified pilot to get comfort able in =0A*that particular design*, new-to-him/her experimental a/c. For e xample, a 5000 =0Ahr ex-military pilot who's only flown C-130's & never a l ight plane, would need =0Ainstruction to handle a taildragger homebuilt lik e a Thorp T-18 (or Kolb).=0A=0AOn the overall question of 'club' a/c: peopl e may be getting the wrong =0A(undesirable) answer because they are asking the wrong question. The word 'club' =0Aprobably does trigger a reaction fro m the FAA, because most clubs operate as =0Abusinesses, charging monthly du es, etc. If the question was phrased as 'multiple =0Aowners', or 'partnersh ip',=C2- there would probably be a different answer. If you =0Asearch FAA records, you'll find many experimental homebuilts registered to =0Apartner ships, and even corporations. As the EAA said, any experimental can be =0Au sed for instruction, as long as there is no payment to the owner for the us e of =0Athe a/c (commercial use). I have read about (but have no direct exp erience) that =0Aan experimental can even be loaned to a non-owner for trai ning. Memory is less =0Aclear on whether a third-party instructor can be pa id in that scenario. The =0Aquestion of 5 owners 'renting' to the 6th owner probably wouldn't come up as =0Along as most of the owners fly at least oc casionally, & all share more or less =0Aequally in fixed costs like insuran ce & annuals. =0A=0A=0AI'd bet that a more likely problem is going to be fi nding an instructor whose =0Aliability insurance will cover him while instr ucting in a homebuilt. Not saying =0Ait makes sense; it's just an unfortuna ====================== =0A=0A =0A=0A =0A_________________________________________________________________ ___________________=0ADon't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast /shortcuts/#loc_weather ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:15:07 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: club planes? From: "Ralph B" John Hauck > Folks, see if you can clean up your posts prior to hitting the send button. Leave enough of the previous post as a reference to know where you are > coming from. Helps a whole bunch when we are searching for info in the Kolb > List Archives. > > Thanks, > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama Posts can be cleaned up using the "edit" button to the right. Here's how you do it: Log in and go to your post that you made. It doesn't matter how old it is. Click the "edit" button to the right (not the right mouse click) and change/delete what you need to and click on "submit" below. That's it. Try it and then look for the new posting. I thought you guys might like to know since there are a lot of posts that are sent and later changed by adding a new posting. Ralph B -------- Ralph B Original Firestar 447 N91493 E-AB 1000 hours 24 years flying it Kolbra 912UL N20386 3 years flying it 150 hrs Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330784#330784 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:21:31 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: changing a posting From: "Ralph B" Posts can be cleaned up using the "edit" button to the right. Here's how you do it: Log in and go to your post that you made. It doesn't matter how old it is. Click the "edit" button to the right (not the right mouse click) and change/delete what you need to and click on "submit" below. That's it. Try it and then look for the new posting. I thought you guys might like to know since there are a lot of posts that are sent and later changed by adding a new posting. Ralph B -------- Ralph B Original Firestar 447 N91493 E-AB 1000 hours 24 years flying it Kolbra 912UL N20386 3 years flying it 150 hrs Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330785#330785 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:37:54 AM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Re: Kolb-List: changing a posting - Ralph- I don't have an "edit" button, or a "submit" button.- Maybe yo u have a different format than I get. - ------------------------- -------------------- Bill Sullivan ------------------------- -------------------- Windsor Locks, Ct. ------------------------- -------------------- FS 447 --- On Sat, 2/12/11, Ralph B wrote: From: Ralph B Subject: Kolb-List: changing a posting Posts can be cleaned up using the "edit" button to the right. Here's how yo u do it: Log in and go to your post that you made. It doesn't matter how ol d it is. Click the "edit" button to the right (not the right mouse click) a nd change/delete what you need to and click on "submit" below. That's it. T ry it and then look for the new posting. I thought you guys might like to know since there are a lot of posts that a re sent and later changed by adding a new posting. Ralph B -------- Ralph B Original Firestar 447 N91493 E-AB 1000 hours 24 years flying it Kolbra 912UL N20386 3 years flying it 150 hrs Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330785#330785 le, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:33:53 PM PST US From: chris davis Subject: Re: Kolb-List: changing a posting ME EITHER=0A-Chris Davis=0AKXP 503 492 hrs=0AGlider Pilot=0ADisabled from crash building Firefly =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AF rom: william sullivan =0ATo: kolb-list@matronics. com=0ASent: Sat, February 12, 2011 2:33:03 PM=0ASubject: Re: Kolb-List: cha nging a posting=0A=0A=0A- Ralph- I don't have an "edit" button, or a "sub mit" button.- Maybe you have a =0Adifferent format than I get.=0A=0A- ------------------------- ------------------- Bill Sullivan=0A ------------------------- -------------------- Windsor Locks, Ct.=0A---------------------- ----------------------- FS 44 7=0A=0A--- On Sat, 2/12/11, Ralph B wrote:=0A=0A=0A>Fr om: Ralph B =0A>Subject: Kolb-List: changing a posting =0A>To: kolb-list@matronics.com=0A>Date: Saturday, February 12, 2011, 2:19 m>=0A>=0A>Posts can be cleaned up using the "edit" button to the right. Her e's how you do =0A>it: Log in and go to your post that you made. It doesn't matter how old it is. =0A>Click the "edit" button to the right (not the ri ght mouse click) and =0A>change/delete what you need to and click on "submi t" below. That's it. Try it =0A>and then look for the new posting. =0A>=0A> =0A>I thought you guys might like to know since there are a lot of posts th at are =0A>sent and later changed by adding a new posting. =0A>=0A>=0A>Ralp h B=0A>=0A>--------=0A>Ralph B=0A>Original Firestar 447=0A>N91493 E-AB=0A>1 000 hours=0A>24 years flying it=0A>Kolbra 912UL=0A>N20386=0A>3 years flying it=0A>150 hrs=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Read this topic online here:=0A>=0A>http: //forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330785#330785 =0A>http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Kolb-Lis-----> http://forums.matronbsp; - - - =0A>---- List Contribution Web Site - http://www===== ===================0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> =0A ============ =0A=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:00:15 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: changing a posting From: "Ralph B" williamtsullivan(at)att.n > Ralph- I don't have an "edit" button, or a "submit" button. Maybe you have a different format than I get. > > William, you can get on the list here instead of getting your Kolb postings in your email. This will free up your email from the Kolb postings and then you can edit and post as I stated. This is much better than the email version. http://forums.matronics.com/viewforum.php?f=5 Ralph B -------- Ralph B Original Firestar 447 N91493 E-AB 1000 hours 24 years flying it Kolbra 912UL N20386 3 years flying it 150 hrs Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330800#330800 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:30:45 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Heavy Passengers From: "Jason Omelchuck" I understand setting weight and balance for the aft range of the cg envelope. The question was meant as what did you test? Stalls with all flap settings, both approach and departure? Stalls while banked to right and left? Accelerated stalls? Rick Girard Hello Rick I did power off stalls only, with flaps and no flaps. All of the other configurations are too exciting for me. Jason Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330801#330801 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:44 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: changing a posting On 2/12/2011 2:58 PM, Ralph B wrote: > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ralph B" > > williamtsullivan(at)att.n >> Ralph- I don't have an "edit" button, or a "submit" button. Maybe you have a different format than I get. >> >> > > William, you can get on the list here instead of getting your Kolb postings in your email. This will free up your email from the Kolb postings and then you can edit and post as I stated. This is much better than the email version. > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewforum.php?f=5 > > Ralph B > > -------- > Ralph B > Original Firestar 447 > N91493 E-AB > 1000 hours > 24 years flying it > Kolbra 912UL > N20386 > 3 years flying it > 150 hrs Or, if you prefer email, like me, then start with opening your email by clicking 'reply', as you normally would. Then, just point your mouse at the starting point of the text you want to delete, hold down the left mouse button, & drag the mouse to the end of the text you want to delete, and release the button. That text will be highlighted (typically changed to a blue background on a 'stock' windows system). Then, hit your choice of or or or or just about any other text or number key, & all the highlighted text will disappear & be replaced by one keystroke of whatever key you hit (enter, space, backspace, etc). Type your response normally & hit send. (But please leave enough of the original message that your response has some context. Some of us get hundreds of emails a day in our inboxes & may skip to the most recent post to save time.) While we're talking about list courtesy, how about this: If we reply to a message that already has a previous reply, try to follow the reply format of the previous reply (top reply, top reply again, or bottom reply, bottom reply again). We each have our preferences, but a half-dozen replies with half on bottom (where they should be :-) ) & half on top & the email has become nothing but gibberish. It would be nice to preserve chronological order, even if it's backward order. Thanks, Charlie ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.