Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:09 AM - landing gear toe in - out (b young)
2. 08:35 AM - Re: landing gear toe in - out (John Hauck)
3. 09:16 AM - Re: landing gear toe in - out (Ralph B)
4. 09:24 AM - Re: landing gear toe in - out (b young)
5. 09:38 AM - Re: landing gear toe in - out (Ralph B)
6. 10:09 AM - Re: Re: landing gear toe in - out (b young)
7. 11:11 AM - South Florida Flyers (Rick Neilsen)
8. 11:13 AM - Re: landing gear toe in - out (Rick Neilsen)
9. 11:17 AM - New Videos to watch.... (ces308)
10. 11:25 AM - Re: South Florida Flyers (gotime242)
11. 11:59 AM - Runway Lenght for Kolb M3 (mark rinehart)
12. 02:03 PM - Re: landing gear toe in - out (b young)
13. 02:06 PM - Re: Runway Lenght for Kolb M3 (b young)
14. 02:08 PM - Re: Runway Lenght for Kolb M3 (Richard Pike)
15. 03:05 PM - Re: Runway Lenght for Kolb M3 (John Hauck)
16. 03:46 PM - Re: Runway Lenght for Kolb M3 (Larry Cottrell)
17. 03:56 PM - Re: Runway Lenght for Kolb M3 (John Hauck)
18. 04:15 PM - Re: Runway Lenght for Kolb M3 (Ellery Batchelder Jr)
19. 04:53 PM - Re: Runway Lenght for Kolb M3 (Larry Cottrell)
20. 08:35 PM - Re: New Videos to watch.... (Ralph B)
21. 09:06 PM - Re: New Videos to watch.... (ces308)
Message 1
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Subject: | landing gear toe in - out |
OOOOOKKKKKK
i need to apologize to the list... in the past the question has come up
as to what the value of toe in - out was necessary. many on the list
have said you need some toe in,, and my response has always been copied
from the kolb builders manual. which states in short, neutral, if you
have to err, err on the side of toe out. from my experience this
week that is wrong. toe in is needed,, but how much is still evading
me.
while driving the kolb around on snow and ice,, i would notice that
when 1 tire was on a slick spot and the other on dry surface, my mkiii
would jump in the direction of the tire on the ice, now i had
believed my gear to be quite neutral when i last visited the subject 9
years ago.... but this experience convinced me i was toe in by quite a
bit. and more sophisticated measurements has confirmed that. now i am
using the solid tapered steel legs i bought from kolb. and the camber
has always been off since i installed them new, so i have decided to
do something about it. so i did some work on the calculator to decide
how much i wanted to bend the gear legs down to correct the camber, then
how much i wanted to bend the gear back to eliminate the toe in,,
figured the angles to do both with 1 bend. after bending the camber is
perfect, and i left a tiny bit of toe in, and figured before i tried
bending more i would try it. it felt as if i was driving down the
railroad track on the railroad ties. it was near impossible to look
out the windows to see and keep things straight down the runway,,, but
what i think was happening is the rolling resistance would flex the gear
backwards, till i was in a toe out position,,, that would increase the
rolling resistance, bend back more till the wheel would loose traction
then the gear would spring forward, the wheel would slide, skip, roll,
bounce, all at the same time and do it at 30 times a second. or there
about.
long story, but i will start bending some toe in back in the gear, bit
by bit,, and keep trying till i get a smooth roll out. in the past if
i inflated my tires to 15 lb or so, it could get a bit darty, but if i
kept the tire pressure at 8 psi or so, there would be enough flex in the
side walls to roll correct. so i will be doing the test with 15 psi in
the tires and try and get the toe in so that when the gear flexes back,
the tires will be tracking true. so i am thinking my final be will be
back near where i started.
when i come up with some final answers i will post to the list... one
last thought, when i had the alum, gear legs it seems that they flexed
less than the spring steel legs. so my results may not fit everyone's
needs. but my lessons and experience may help.
boyd young
mkiii utah.
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: landing gear toe in - out |
when i come up with some final answers i will post to the list... one
last thought, when i had the alum, gear legs it seems that they flexed less
than the spring steel legs. so my results may not fit everyone's needs.
but my lessons and experience may help.
boyd young
Boyd Y/Kolber:
I always use a lot of camber and a tad of toe in.
Heat treated (48rc) 4130 gear legs are more flexible in all directions than
7075 aluminum legs, especially the extra long legs on the stock MKIII.
Braking will cause the main gear to toe out. Toe out spreads the gear legs
and reduces camber.
My gear legs are 24" total with 18" outside the gear leg sockets. Don't get
near the flex with the short stubby legs.
john h
Titus, Alabama
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: landing gear toe in - out |
Boyd,
The gear is toed in slightly on both my Firestar and Kolbra. It taxies fine on
both aircraft and have not noticed the type of problem you are seeing. When either
aircraft is picked up by the tail and moved backwards, the gear spreads out
and it looks like I had a very hard landing. I will usually put my back to
the cockpit and lift underneath with my hands. This will spring the gear back
to their original position to make it look like it's not spread out like that.
If one side is not sprung back, it can make your wings look like they are not
level even if it's sitting on level ground.
Ralph B
--------
Ralph B
Original Firestar 447
N91493 E-AB
1000 hours
24 years flying it
Kolbra 912UL
N20386
3 years flying it
150 hrs
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=331231#331231
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: landing gear toe in - out |
I always use a lot of camber and a tad of toe in.
john h
Titus, Alabama
>>>>>>>>>
john and kolbers
been doing a lot of investigating the last couple days... it seems the
best i have learned about camber,,, it that it should be positive, on
an empty plane,,, but when the plane is loaded to grose wt,, they
should be netural. i guess the book furtherer clairified that they
should be netural at the normal loading of the plane,,, example,, if
you normaly fly at 80 % gr, wt. then you should set it at netural at
that wt.... if occasional you are at 60 or 100 % you would be only
slightly pos, or neg, camber. this will maximize the tire wear.
likewise the 'toe in' should be equal to the amount the wheel pulls back
due to the rolling resistance,, which will vary depending on the flex
for and aft in the gear leg, and the loading of the plane. kind of
hard to measure at 50 mph... guess you go by feel at that point..
everything else is just a starting point. trouble in a kolb,,, once it
is set,,, its kind of hard to change.
boyd young
mkiii utah
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: landing gear toe in - out |
> kind of hard to measure at 50 mph... guess you go by feel at that point..
everything else is just a starting point. trouble in a kolb,,, once it is
set,,, its kind of hard to change.
>
> boyd young
> mkiii utah
This obviously is one of the shortcomings of Kolb aircraft. It's a guessing game
on toe-in. What I did for the Firestar is to adjust it to neutral to begin with
and then equally toe in on both sides. With the aluminum gear, it tends to
toe out quite a bit with added weight. Once the gear leg hole is drilled, there's
no re-drilling, unless you get another gear leg. One advantage to this type
of gear, is that it can be removed easily. That's got to be a big plus.
Ralph B
--------
Ralph B
Original Firestar 447
N91493 E-AB
1000 hours
24 years flying it
Kolbra 912UL
N20386
3 years flying it
150 hrs
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=331234#331234
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: landing gear toe in - out |
Boyd,
The gear is toed in slightly on both my Firestar and Kolbra. It taxies
fine on both aircraft and have not noticed the type of problem you are
seeing. When either aircraft is picked up by the tail and moved
backwards, the gear spreads out and it looks like I had a very hard
landing. I will usually put my back to the cockpit and lift underneath
with my hands. This will spring the gear back to their original position
to make it look like it's not spread out like that. If one side is not
sprung back, it can make your wings look like they are not level even if
it's sitting on level ground.
Ralph B
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
what type of gear legs do you have?
other than my camber being way off... it drove ok before i started..
except when i was on ice. i may end back wher i started with toe in.
wish now i had only adjusted camber. hind sight. i am getting too soon
old and too late smart
boyd
Message 7
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Subject: | South Florida Flyers |
Hey South Florida Flyers or any one that wants to fly in somewhere
in Florida some morning.
I don't have my Kolb down here this winter but I'm renting a SportCruiser
out of Charlotte county and I can meet most any where. How about it? Gary A,
Buford, George A, and anyone else want to meet some where? I have a plane
available (right now) this Saturday 2/19/ 11 AM we could meet at Arcadia or
Wauchula.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: landing gear toe in - out |
Boyd
It sounds like I have the same solid steel gear legs. I really like the gear
but don't like the look of negative camber. Where/how did you bend the gear
and did you remove the gear to bend it? I clamped a staight 2X4 between both
axles notched for the brake attachment while installing my gear legs so I
think they are neutral. But they flex under load so much that things could
change.
Keep us posted
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 11:03 AM, b young <byoungplumbing@gmail.com> wrote:
> OOOOOKKKKKK
>
> i need to apologize to the list... in the past the question has come up as
> to what the value of toe in - out was necessary. many on the list have said
> you need some toe in,, and my response has always been copied from the kolb
> builders manual. which states in short, neutral, if you have to err, err on
> the side of toe out. from my experience this week that is wrong. toe
> in is needed,, but how much is still evading me.
>
> while driving the kolb around on snow and ice,, i would notice that when 1
> tire was on a slick spot and the other on dry surface, my mkiii would jump
> in the direction of the tire on the ice, now i had believed my gear to be
> quite neutral when i last visited the subject 9 years ago.... but this
> experience convinced me i was toe in by quite a bit. and more sophisticated
> measurements has confirmed that. now i am using the solid tapered steel
> legs i bought from kolb. and the camber has always been off since i
> installed them new, so i have decided to do something about it. so i did
> some work on the calculator to decide how much i wanted to bend the gear
> legs down to correct the camber, then how much i wanted to bend the gear
> back to eliminate the toe in,, figured the angles to do both with 1
> bend. after bending the camber is perfect, and i left a tiny bit of toe
> in, and figured before i tried bending more i would try it. it felt as
> if i was driving down the railroad track on the railroad ties. it was near
> impossible to look out the windows to see and keep things straight down the
> runway,,, but what i think was happening is the rolling resistance would
> flex the gear backwards, till i was in a toe out position,,, that would
> increase the rolling resistance, bend back more till the wheel would loose
> traction then the gear would spring forward, the wheel would slide, skip,
> roll, bounce, all at the same time and do it at 30 times a second. or there
> about.
>
> long story, but i will start bending some toe in back in the gear, bit
> by bit,, and keep trying till i get a smooth roll out. in the past if i
> inflated my tires to 15 lb or so, it could get a bit darty, but if i kept
> the tire pressure at 8 psi or so, there would be enough flex in the side
> walls to roll correct. so i will be doing the test with 15 psi in the
> tires and try and get the toe in so that when the gear flexes back, the
> tires will be tracking true. so i am thinking my final be will be back near
> where i started.
>
> when i come up with some final answers i will post to the list... one
> last thought, when i had the alum, gear legs it seems that they flexed less
> than the spring steel legs. so my results may not fit everyone's needs.
> but my lessons and experience may help.
>
> boyd young
> mkiii utah.
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 9
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Subject: | New Videos to watch.... |
Hi All!
Took these yesterday...first will be the flight...second will be us digging out
the plane after it fell through the crusty snow....third is taxiing out of the
mess....and forth is of the well jacks I made to get the plane in and out of
the hangar....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM3zDj729Wc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BiwRQX6VfY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvYpzzN64nE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNfz07uUfwM
chris ambrose
M3X/Jabiru A-2200
N327CS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=331239#331239
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: South Florida Flyers |
I fly out of Lantana Airport in west palm beach and have been considering heading
to okeechobee airport one of these days...
Here are some other florida flyers:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=55393&highlight
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=331249#331249
Message 11
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Subject: | Runway Lenght for Kolb M3 |
I'm wanting to create a grass strip for my Mark3 on a farm my brother owns in central
Indiana. How much runway do I need assuming clear approaches (no obstacles)
at both ends. This is all level land and is currently being farmed in corn
or beans. Thanks.
Mark Rinehart
Indy Kolb Mark3 N68MR
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: landing gear toe in - out |
Boyd
It sounds like I have the same solid steel gear legs. I really like the
gear but don't like the look of negative camber. Where/how did you bend
the gear and did you remove the gear to bend it? I clamped a staight 2X4
between both axles notched for the brake attachment while installing my
gear legs so I think they are neutral. But they flex under load so much
that things could change.
Keep us posted
Rick Neilsen
>>>>>>>>
Rick yes i had to remove the gear,,, my son bought a pipe bender that
goes up to 2 inch,, the bending was easy,, but wish i had left toe in
alone and only did the camber.
b oyd
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Runway Lenght for Kolb M3 |
I'm wanting to create a grass strip for my Mark3 on a farm my brother
owns in central Indiana. How much runway do I need assuming clear
approaches (no obstacles) at both ends. This is all level land and is
currently being farmed in corn or beans. Thanks.
Mark Rinehart
Indy Kolb Mark3 N68MR
>>>>>>>>>>>>
with good skills and lo altitude,, 600 ft seems to work for some,,,
less skills and higher altitude = longer. mark it out on the
runway you are using now and compare, your mileage may vary.
boyd young mkiii
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Runway Lenght for Kolb M3 |
A friend of mine has a level strip with good approaches in both directions that
is exactly 1,000' long, and when I have a passenger and it is hot, I wouldn't
want any less. What works when things are optimum is not what you want on those
occasions when things are less than ideal. If you can come up with 1,200'
- take all of it.
My home field (3TN0) is 750' long, but it has a good slope to it, takeoff is downhill
into the prevailing wind and landing is uphill, and a sloped runway makes
a huge difference. I wouldn't want any less, because every once in a while
I use most all of it. Not all landings turn out the way you plan, and once I touch
down, (headed uphill towards the neighbor's house and trees) there is no
go-around.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=331273#331273
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: Runway Lenght for Kolb M3 |
How much runway do I need assuming clear approaches (no obstacles) at both
ends.
Mark Rinehart
Mark R/Gang:
Gantt International Airport is 750 feet useable. Approaches aren't all that
clear. Plenty room for me and my mkIII. I also fly passengers out of
Gantt, which is a cow pasture.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 16
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Subject: | Re: Runway Lenght for Kolb M3 |
Mark,
I would consider John's 750 feet, a bare minimum, get more if you
can. Keep in mind that John is a much better pilot than most of us. The
only time the runway is too long is when you have to push the plane.
Larry
Note: If you forward this email, please delete the forwarding history,
which includes my email address.
----- Original Message -----
From: John Hauck
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 3:55 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Runway Lenght for Kolb M3
How much runway do I need assuming clear approaches (no obstacles)
at both
ends.
Mark Rinehart
Mark R/Gang:
Gantt International Airport is 750 feet useable. Approaches aren't
all that
clear. Plenty room for me and my mkIII. I also fly passengers out of
Gantt, which is a cow pasture.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 17
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Subject: | Re: Runway Lenght for Kolb M3 |
I would consider John's 750 feet, a bare minimum, get more if you can.
Keep in mind that John is a much better pilot than most of us. The only time
the runway is too long is when you have to push the plane.
Larry
Larry/Kolbers:
I beg to disagree.
Gantt International was 600 feet when I made my first solo flight in a fixed
wing aircraft, the Ultrastar I built in 1984. Of course, I crashed on my
first landing, but two weeks later armed with new main gear, nose, and prop,
I learned to land on my second ever attempt. That was without brakes too.
I'd have a longer strip if I could. Get all you can get while you can.
Larry is used to flying off his own 2,600 foot gravel strip with no trees in
his part of the State of Oregon.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 18
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Subject: | Re: Runway Lenght for Kolb M3 |
Take all that is available you will be coming up with friends that can not
use a kolb strip
Ellery Batchelder Jr.
-----Original Message-----
From: mark rinehart <capt_riney@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wed, Feb 16, 2011 2:18 pm
Subject: Kolb-List: Runway Lenght for Kolb M3
I'm wanting to create a grass strip for my Mark3 on a farm my brother owns
in
entral Indiana. How much runway do I need assuming clear approaches (no
bstacles) at both ends. This is all level land and is currently being far
med
n corn or beans. Thanks.
Mark Rinehart
ndy Kolb Mark3 N68MR
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Message 19
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Subject: | Re: Runway Lenght for Kolb M3 |
I am not sure which part John is disagreeing with, but I am used to it.
:-) I didn't always fly where there were no trees. My last runway before
this one was about 400 feet. I had to touch down under power lines, the
small ones, and there was a wall of Ponderosa trees that I was landing
up against. I did it, didn't like it! You just had to get it right,
every time. It was always exciting.
Larry
Note: If you forward this email, please delete the forwarding history,
which includes my email address.
----- Original Message -----
From: John Hauck
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Runway Lenght for Kolb M3
I beg to disagree.
Gantt International was 600 feet when I made my first solo flight in a
fixed
wing aircraft, the Ultrastar I built in 1984. Of course, I crashed on
my
first landing, but two weeks later armed with new main gear, nose, and
prop,
I learned to land on my second ever attempt. That was without brakes
too.
I'd have a longer strip if I could. Get all you can get while you
can.
Larry is used to flying off his own 2,600 foot gravel strip with no
trees in
his part of the State of Oregon.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 20
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Subject: | Re: New Videos to watch.... |
Chris, good videos. You could have plowed through that snow if the skis were waxed.
Ralph B
--------
Ralph B
Original Firestar 447
N91493 E-AB
1000 hours
24 years flying it
Kolbra 912UL
N20386
3 years flying it
150 hrs
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=331309#331309
Message 21
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Subject: | Re: New Videos to watch.... |
Ralph,
The snow was to deep and packed and frozen...once it broke through,it was all done...I
have Lexan on the bottom of the skis and it really works good ! The first
flight with the skis was without the Lexan and there was still some grass
showing...maybe an inch or 2 of snow and I could feel the drag on the skis...next
day I put the Lexan on the bottoms and holy cow...what a difference ! I
had to be careful with the throttle coming up to the hangar it was so slippery!
chris ambrose
M3X/Jabiru A-2200
N327CS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=331312#331312
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