---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 02/20/11: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:14 AM - Re: Re: N213 Wreck (russ kinne) 2. 05:38 AM - Re: Re: N213 Wreck (Ellery Batchelder Jr) 3. 08:43 AM - Re: prop for 447 on UltraStar? (Ron @ KFHU) 4. 10:01 AM - Re: N213 Wreck (Thom Riddle) 5. 10:27 AM - Re: Re: N213 Wreck (John Hauck) 6. 10:42 AM - Re: prop for 447 on UltraStar? (Thom Riddle) 7. 11:41 AM - Re: Re: prop for 447 on UltraStar? (Dana Hague) 8. 12:39 PM - Re: Re: prop for 447 on UltraStar? (John Hauck) 9. 12:50 PM - Re: prop for 447 on UltraStar? (Thom Riddle) 10. 02:13 PM - Re: Re: prop for 447 on UltraStar? (Dana Hague) 11. 02:13 PM - Re: Re: prop for 447 on UltraStar? (Dana Hague) 12. 02:28 PM - The winter fly-in experience (Ralph B) 13. 04:52 PM - Re: The winter fly-in experience (ces308) 14. 05:28 PM - Re: Re: prop for 447 on UltraStar? (Ron @ KFHU) 15. 09:13 PM - Warp Drive/GSC Prop Blade Grip Comparison (John Hauck) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:14:07 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: N213 Wreck From: russ kinne Ellery Aren't you glad you didn't have a 350-lb passenger?? ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:38:17 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: N213 Wreck From: Ellery Batchelder Jr Oh yes That wouldn't have been good at all, im Glad I made the choice to fly alone that day to Ellery Batchelder Jr. -----Original Message----- From: russ kinne Sent: Sun, Feb 20, 2011 8:11 am Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: N213 Wreck Ellery ren't you glad you didn't have a 350-lb passenger?? ======================== =========== -= - The Kolb-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:43:31 AM PST US From: "Ron @ KFHU" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: prop for 447 on UltraStar? I bought a Tennessee prop last year I think it was when I was flying the Duc. It was great, and it looked great. Still looks good. They make some mighty fine looking stuff, and the price is good too. Never thought I'd like a wooden prop; now I do. I also fixed the old prop with Gorilla glue and fiber glass after some ground damage. It was an emergency repair to meet a flight schedule. So I am ever more convinced about the virtues of wood prop. I doubt you'd do better than the same prop I had on the 430. When I called them the fellow that answered the phone knew what prop I needed and sent me that one. 447 is a rotax,,, I had the Cuyana, in any event the Tennessee prop was very good choice for me, and pretty as it gets. ---- Dana Hague wrote: ============ My UltraStar currently has the original Cuyuna engine with the 50x30 Culver prop. I just acquired a 447, which I plan to install. Can anybody tell me what is a good prop for this combination? I believe (need to confirm) that it's a 2.58 ratio B box. I'm thinking 3 blades due to the limited diameter possible on the US, can't go 4 blades and fold the wings... perhaps even smaller than 50" to give better ground clearance? A friend gave me the engine in the interest of me being quieter than I am with the 447; a number of people have commented on how loud my plane is. Also for anybody who's flown the US with both engines, how much performance increase should I expect? I calculate about 350fpm better climb in theory. -Dana -- Art and technical perfection are not the same thing in cars, and hard-core car buffs often prefer art. Which is why they own so many tools. -- kugelair.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:01:23 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: N213 Wreck From: "Thom Riddle" Ellery, I'd like to add my congratulations to you for a job well done. Emergencies handled well are what training, practice and experience are all about. PLEASE keep us posted on the prop assessment by NTSB. Has Warp Drive expressed interest in getting it back for their own evaluation? Care to share your plans/thoughts on re-building or building new? -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY (9G0) Kolb Slingshot SS-021 Jabiru 2200A #1574 Tennessee Prop 64x32 Don't accept your dog's admiration as conclusive evidence that you are wonderful. Ann Landers Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=331623#331623 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:27:03 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: N213 Wreck Has Warp Drive expressed interest in getting it back for their own evaluation? Thom Riddle I am sure Warp Drive will be interested in those prop blades. However, I don't think they are Warp Drive Blades. To the best of my knowledge Warp Drive has never built anything but solid carbon fiber blades. The blade that failed on Ellery's MKIII looks like a honey comb core blade. Another peculiarity of this failure is the area of the blade that failed, the trailing edge. If I am wrong, promptly correct me. I plan to call Daryl in the morning and will confirm if they have ever manufactured and sold honey comb prop blades. All Warp Drive Prop Blades have the serial number and maybe the weight of the blade inscribed in pencil on the butt end of each blade. Also, one blade of a two or three blade prop will have the data sticker on it with SN. I have flown and been sponsored by Warp Drive since September 1993. During that time have flown my MKIII with Warp Drive props mounted on 582, 912UL and 912ULS, for more than 3,000.0 hours. The worst situation I have encountered with the Warp Drive Prop was when an 18" section of 1.5" exhaust pipe with a 180 degree and a 90 degree bends, broke and went through the prop at wide open throttle. Was climbing out when I heard and felt a huge explosion. Had a slight vibration. Made a precautionary landing at the next airport to check out the damage. There was a ding in the leading edge of one blade. Flew the remaining 11 miles back to my airstrip with no further problems except the slight vibration. Was lucky the prop did not kick the pipe into an aileron, wing, or tailboom. However, it did get the bottom frame of my radiator which was mounted between prop and tail of fuselage cage. john h Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:42:05 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: prop for 447 on UltraStar? From: "Thom Riddle" Dana, Can't comment first hand on a prop for a 447 powered UltraStar but had a PowerFin on my 447 early Firestar and an IVO on my 377 powered even earlier Firestar. Both were good props but I now have a Tennessee prop on the Slingshot. I really like the TN prop and the company is unbeatable for customer service. Customer Service Story: When I bought the Slingshot with this prop, it was black plastic coated from the factory per the builder's request to match his color scheme. When I flew it through a light rain shower, the outer 6-8" of each blade showed damage to the black plastic coating, none to the blade itself. At that time I measured the pitch of both blades since it was not turning up as close to redline as I wanted in S&L flight. It turned out there was about 3/4 degree difference in pitch between the blades. I removed the prop, called TPI and they told me to send it back, which I did. Per my request they reduced the pitch a little and evened them up and refinished it with their natural clear coat polyurethane, a true work of art. I wish I had a photo of it to post. They sent it back and asked me to report back after flying with it. The pitch difference was now almost not measurable and it turns up to within 50 rpm of redline, just like I asked for. They did this absolutely free of charge, even though I was not the original purchaser of this over 5 year old prop. http://www.tn-prop.com/prop.htm is now my first choice in prop vendors where a wood prop is appropriate. -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY (9G0) Kolb Slingshot SS-021 Jabiru 2200A #1574 Tennessee Prop 64x32 Don't accept your dog's admiration as conclusive evidence that you are wonderful. Ann Landers Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=331628#331628 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:41:25 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: prop for 447 on UltraStar? Ron, Thom, What I'm really looking for is input on prop pitch, diameter, and number of blades... of course pitch doesn't matter if I get an adjustable prop. I like wood props too, but a tough prop like a WD (Ellery's adventure notwithstanding) is attractive for an airplane with as low prop ground clearance as the UltraStar. I'm leery of Powerfin, because I watched a Kolb crash after the Powerfin came apart apparently due to internal damage... they're just not as robust as a WD or Ivo. I had good results with a GSC adjustable (wood blades) on my PPG. I'd try the original prop, but the rotation direction is opposite. Hmmm... I see I may have to change out the redrive, if it's a 2.58 ratio as I believe... Tenesee calls for 58-68" props for that ratio; I'd need a 2:1 redrive for the 50" prop that would fit on the US. -Dana At 01:39 PM 2/20/2011, Thom Riddle wrote: > >Dana, > >Can't comment first hand on a prop for a 447 powered UltraStar but had a >PowerFin on my 447 early Firestar and an IVO on my 377 powered even >earlier Firestar. Both were good props but I now have a Tennessee prop on >the Slingshot. > >I really like the TN prop and the company is unbeatable for customer service. -- When you were born, you cried and the world rejoiced... Live your life so that when you die, the world cries and you rejoice. -- Cherokee saying ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:39:36 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: prop for 447 on UltraStar? What I'm really looking for is input on prop pitch, diameter, and number of blades... of course pitch doesn't matter if I get an adjustable prop. -Dana Dana: US is a good little aircraft, but also had some weaknesses. One was prop to ground and tailboom clearance, which limits max prop diameter to 50" on the Cuyuna and Kolb reduction drive. On my 447 powered original FS, I was dialed in with a Jim Culver 60X30 two blade wooden prop with polyurethane leading edge. I think if I was going to power an US with a 447 I would go with a 3 blade WD and nickle steel leading edges on the blades. Position of gear box and prop flange will dictate max prop diameter. Better yet, sell the US and get an original FS powered with the 447 and a 60X30 two blade wooden prop. With a wind shield and cockpit you can actually read a map while you fly. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:50:54 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: prop for 447 on UltraStar? From: "Thom Riddle" Dana, There is no arguing against the advantages of an adjustable pitch prop. I had an in-flight adjustable GSC on my old Titan and had no complaints. Did you know that TN Prop makes a four blade? Not pushing any brand, just relating my experiences, as are the others. -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY (9G0) Kolb Slingshot SS-021 Jabiru 2200A #1574 Tennessee Prop 64x32 Don't accept your dog's admiration as conclusive evidence that you are wonderful. Ann Landers Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=331638#331638 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:13:41 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: prop for 447 on UltraStar? At 03:48 PM 2/20/2011, Thom Riddle wrote: > >Dana, > >There is no arguing against the advantages of an adjustable pitch prop. I >had an in-flight adjustable GSC on my old Titan and had no complaints. Did >you know that TN Prop makes a four blade? Not pushing any brand, just >relating my experiences, as are the others. Can't do a four blade. I need to fold the wings. -Dana -- For every new foolproof invention there is a new and improved fool. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:13:41 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: prop for 447 on UltraStar? At 03:34 PM 2/20/2011, John Hauck wrote: >US is a good little aircraft, but also had some weaknesses. One was prop to >ground and tailboom clearance, which limits max prop diameter to 50" on the >Cuyuna and Kolb reduction drive. Yes, that's why I'm hoping an extra 5HP with a three blade prop might give me a bit better performance. >I think if I was going to power an US with a 447 I would go with a 3 blade >WD and nickle steel leading edges on the blades. From what I understand, the WD has too much inertia for the B box, no? >Position of gear box and prop flange will dictate max prop diameter. Yes, that's one issue that concerns me... the Rotax gearbox puts the prop shaft closer to the engine crank, i.e. closer to the ground (with the original engine mount). I might gain boom clearance, but lose it on the ground side. >Better yet, sell the US and get an original FS powered with the 447 and a >60X30 two blade wooden prop. With a wind shield and cockpit you can >actually read a map while you fly. ... and lose the visibility. Not that I haven't thought about it (or better yet, a Firefly)... but it isn't in the budget right now. Hmmm, I wonder what I could find an engineless FS or FF for? I've got an engine... -Dana -- For every new foolproof invention there is a new and improved fool. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:28:16 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: The winter fly-in experience From: "Ralph B" Here are the videos of the Chetek Wisconsin winter fly-in we attended on Saturday. Enjoy ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxHV5vczS2o http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LISD3Go3sRg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7Pgqs-DAzQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGPpRC4bfQs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2_eJA97aX4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_xMqUVBoNM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9M99qTls5g Ralph B -------- Ralph B Original Firestar 447 N91493 E-AB 1000 hours 24 years flying it Kolbra 912UL N20386 3 years flying it 150 hrs Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=331645#331645 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:52:41 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: The winter fly-in experience From: "ces308" Good job Ralph! Nice videos ! chris ambrose M3X/Jab N327CS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=331661#331661 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:28:56 PM PST US From: "Ron @ KFHU" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: prop for 447 on UltraStar? I'd say call them up and talk to them, they really know their stuff there. I am sure they'd be able to recommend something good for your mission. Ron @ KFHU ============================== ---- Dana Hague wrote: ============ Ron, Thom, What I'm really looking for is input on prop pitch, diameter, and number of blades... of course pitch doesn't matter if I get an adjustable prop. I like wood props too, but a tough prop like a WD (Ellery's adventure notwithstanding) is attractive for an airplane with as low prop ground clearance as the UltraStar. I'm leery of Powerfin, because I watched a Kolb crash after the Powerfin came apart apparently due to internal damage... they're just not as robust as a WD or Ivo. I had good results with a GSC adjustable (wood blades) on my PPG. I'd try the original prop, but the rotation direction is opposite. Hmmm... I see I may have to change out the redrive, if it's a 2.58 ratio as I believe... Tenesee calls for 58-68" props for that ratio; I'd need a 2:1 redrive for the 50" prop that would fit on the US. -Dana At 01:39 PM 2/20/2011, Thom Riddle wrote: > >Dana, > >Can't comment first hand on a prop for a 447 powered UltraStar but had a >PowerFin on my 447 early Firestar and an IVO on my 377 powered even >earlier Firestar. Both were good props but I now have a Tennessee prop on >the Slingshot. > >I really like the TN prop and the company is unbeatable for customer service. -- When you were born, you cried and the world rejoiced... Live your life so that when you die, the world cries and you rejoice. -- Cherokee saying -- kugelair.com ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:13:24 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Warp Drive/GSC Prop Blade Grip Comparison From: "John Hauck" Folks: We had a RANS try to take off, WOT, no pilot and no wings at our airport. The RANS went through some pine trees and took off all three Warp Drive blades as they tried to cut down a 10" pine. We disected the WD blade grip as well as a blade grip off my GSC wooden prop that came apart on me and my 582 powered MKIII. Here are photos illustrating the difference in the composition of the two different props. The WD blade is built up of solid carbon fibers that run from the blade tip to the blade grip/butt, around a metal ring and back to the blade tip. The GSC blade grip has a hole drilled through it that is elongated to allow ground pitch change. Not much keeping the blade in the hub. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -------- John Hauck MKIII/912ULS hauck's holler, alabama Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=331684#331684 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/warpdrive_blade_butt_147.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/gsc_blade_grip_884.jpg ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.