---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 04/09/11: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:51 AM - Mark III STOL performance (Lanny Fetterman) 2. 06:03 AM - Re: Re: Firestar II for sale (Brian and Karon Frey) 3. 06:34 AM - Re: Re: Firestar II for sale (frank goodnight) 4. 06:35 AM - Re: Downwind landing tips? (Thom Riddle) 5. 06:50 AM - Re: Kolb-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 04/07/11 (Bob Green) 6. 08:06 AM - Re: Downwind landing tips? (Richard Pike) 7. 11:55 AM - Re: Firestar II for sale (Ozarkflyer) 8. 01:33 PM - Re: Re: Downwind landing tips? (Jack B. Hart) 9. 01:46 PM - Fw: Wing Failure (russ kinne) 10. 02:02 PM - Re: Re: Downwind landing tips? (Jerry Deckard) 11. 03:12 PM - Re: Downwind landing tips? (Thom Riddle) 12. 07:00 PM - First Flight! (mark rinehart) 13. 08:18 PM - Re: First Flight! (Richard Girard) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:51:15 AM PST US From: Lanny Fetterman Subject: Kolb-List: Mark III STOL performance Robert, Thank you for the correction. I did indeed mean Homesick angel. My Bad! ;-) ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:47 AM PST US From: "Brian and Karon Frey" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar II for sale I was wondering the same thing.................I live by Table rock lake......Branson west Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Welch To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 1:30 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar II for sale Hi, I'm Mike Welch, a regular on the Kolb list, almost finished building a MkIII Xtra. I see by your email address with Matronics you call yourself Ozarkflyer. I was curious where you live, since I live near Lake of the Ozarks ( in Camdenton, MO). Is the Ozarks where you are from, or where you live now? Mike > Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar II for sale > From: lragan@hotmail.com > Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 10:00:41 -0700 > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > > > Where is the Firestar located and can you send pics? ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:34:30 AM PST US From: frank goodnight Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar II for sale Hi Mike,=0A=0AFrank Goodnight here. Just moved to Fayetteville , Ark. I fly a Firestar 2 , =0AMaybe that we can get togeather=0Alater in the year. So far I've not been able to- find a Kolb driver close to =0Ahere. On the- plus side-there is a=0Alot on intrest in experimental A/C here. Hope to h ere from you .=0AFrank Goodnight.=0A=0A=0A-=0A=0A________________________ ________=0AFrom: Mike Welch =0ATo: kolb-list@matro nics.com=0ASent: Fri, April 8, 2011 1:30:57 PM=0ASubject: RE: Kolb-List: Re : Firestar II for sale=0A=0AHi, I'm Mike Welch, a regular on the Kolb list, almost finished building a MkIII =0AXtra.=0A-- I see by your email add ress with Matronics you call yourself Ozarkflyer.- I =0Awas =0A=0Acurious where you live, since I live-near Lake of the Ozarks ( in Camdenton, =0A MO).=0A-=0A- Is the Ozarks where you are from, or where you live now? =0A-=0AMike=0A=0A-=0A> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar II for sale=0A> From: lragan@hotmail.com=0A> Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 10:00:41 -0700=0A> To: er" =0A> =0A> Where is the Firestar located and can you =============== ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:35:43 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Downwind landing tips? From: "Thom Riddle" KT, You did not mention whether your strip is level, nor did you mention how long it will be nor what engine is in your mkiii. Nor did you say if the strip is sheltered from cross winds by trees etc. or what typical wind speeds are in your area. All these are factors in take-off and most are factors during landing. If you have a wide enough area, you should consider keeping half of it in long grass (for landing) and the other half mowed short for take-off. The two most important things in short field landing is airspeed control and intimate knowledge of YOUR airplane. This applies whether you are landing upwind, downwind or crosswind. Groundspeed should be ignored while in the air. It is a factor only while on the ground. -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY (9G0) Kolb Slingshot SS-021 Jabiru 2200A #1574 Tennessee Prop 64x32 Don't accept your dog's admiration as conclusive evidence that you are wonderful. Ann Landers Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336447#336447 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:50:50 AM PST US From: Bob Green Subject: Kolb-List: RE: Kolb-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 04/07/11 Daniel, I live near Chattanooga and would enjoy meeting you. 423-326-2074 Bob ________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:06:43 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Downwind landing tips? From: "Richard Pike" What Thom said - How short is short? And is it flat or sloped? My grass strip - 3TN0 - where MKIII N420P is based is 750' long, and is aligned 5/23. You always take off on 23 and land on 5 because it is one way in, one way out. Prevailing wind is from the SW, so the down hill take off is normally into a head wind - but not always. And you typically land uphill with a tail wind. Attached are some pictures of the strip and the approach. Just to make things more interesting, TVA has giant power lines and towers on the approach to the strip. I marked them with little red dots in the pictures. So you have to cross the tower and then let the air out in a hurry. The first picture is on half mile final, the second picture is crossing the tower. To optimize for consistency, I make all my landings with full flaps, everywhere, every time. I do this so that the airplane always acts exactly the same, I never have to think about slightly different aircraft behavior. Someone with a higher skill level than I have might not need this, but I am trying to stack the deck in my favor as much as I can. The grass next to the strip is usually several inches high, at times during the summer it can get a foot high. If you land long and hot, get the airplane down and stabilized and then go for the tall grass. Several years ago I had a fuel filter get partially plugged while departing from a friends short strip and the engine began to surge. I did a 180 and went straight back in. Landed long and hot and once the airplane was slowed down a bit, ran it off the runway into 2' high grass. It stopped in about ten feet. Fortunately I was solo, if I had a passenger it might have tipped up. So like Thom said, tall grass off to one side of the runway is a good thing. You want vortex generators for the wings and the underside of the horizontal stab, and gap seal the horizontal stab to the elevators. Once I did this on mine, I could consistently make an approach about ten mph slower. The mods to the tail will give you more control authority in the flair when you have a heavy passenger. A MKIII flies good without these mods, but if you are going to be habitually flying out of a less than ideal strip like I do, VG's are just another way to stack the deck in your favor. As far as down wind landings - unless the wind is blowing really hard, you won't notice it much once you get used to it, the MKIII is pretty easy to work with in that situation. I am spoiled, I have good brakes and I don't have to wiggle my feet around on the rudder pedals to use them, which makes keeping the airplane straight and stopping at the same time easier. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336455#336455 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/3tn01_small_116.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/3tn02_small_162.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/3tn03_small_155.jpg ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:55:00 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar II for sale From: "Ozarkflyer" Mountain View, AR. 7M2 www.mountainviewcc.org Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336469#336469 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:33:16 PM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Downwind landing tips? At 08:04 AM 4/9/11 -0700, you wrote: > Richard's email reminded me of my first experience with a Kolb design. Before purchasing a FireFly kit, I wanted to see a Kolb design in the flesh. I had contacted the old Kolb Company and asked it there was someone in southeast Missouri that had a Kolb. I was given a name and telephone number for a fellow who worked in a Dexter, Missouri machine shop. We made arrangements to meet after his work day and trailed him further west and north to an out in the country hayfield and landing strip. At the entrance of the field there was a truck trailer set up on cement blocks and it was a little machine shop he had set up and in which he had built his FireStar. He said he was going to build a house on the property. His landing strip was north and south along the west line fence, and it was filled with mature trees. We walked out to a trailer on which the FireStar was folded and covered by a tarp. We removed the tarp and unfolded the wings while it sat on the trailer. He had not covered the cockpit end of the wings and so they rumbled and rattled as the acorns and hickory nuts rolled around in the leading edge compartments. His trailer was interesting in that it squat so that the lower frame rested on the ground. He used some VW Rabbit rear wheel spindles on swing arms outside the frame with a locking lever arrangement to lift the frame up into the transport position. This made it easy to roll the plane off the trailer bed. He started and warmed it up and proceed to taxi to the north end of the strip. I stood there wondering how he was going to handle the cross wind from the west coming over and through the trees in the line fence. He handled it very well on take off and few several low passes and then he set up for a landing. He kept the speed up and came down through the rotor off the trees, fighting and crabbing to keep position and the wings somewhat level. Then I realized he was much to hot and I backed closer to the tree line. He touched down about 50 feet from me, shut the engine off and kicked a hard left rudder into the un mowed hay field. Then he held full right rudder, and the plane stopped 50 feet on the other side me with the nose sticking out of the hay. We pulled it a little ways to the trailer, de-hayed the horizontal tail and cables, and the landing gear, and rolled it on the trailer bed, folded the wings, and covered it back up with the tarp. It was ready for the squirrel to resume his work of adding nuts to the wing interior. I went home and mailed off my check for the FireFly. Years later, I passed by and stopped to see him but he was not home. He had completed his house. Later on, I flew down and over to a Poplar Bluff, MO fly in, and on the return flight I flew over his home site as a way of saying thank you for helping me to make up my mind about a Kolb FireFly. The tubing need to splice the broken FireFly wing braces has come, and tomorrow is supposed to be warm. Hope to get started on the repairs. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:46:08 PM PST US From: russ kinne Subject: Kolb-List: Fwd: Wing Failure >>>> NOT Kolb-related, but a homebuilt >>>> Pucker factor of 14, scale of 1 to 10 >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Remember that fake video last year showing the aerobatic plane lose it's wing? >>>>> Well this one's real. It was at an airshow in Argentina, involved a home-built airplane not designed for significant negative G's, and a pilot flying it over gross weight and above limit speeds doing negative pushes. Fortunately for him, he had a BRS (Ballistic Recovery System) parachute on the airplane that saved his butt. >>>>> After the first regular speed video pass, it shows it again in slow-motion. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.eaa.org/news/2010/2010-08-17_BRS-WingSeparate.asp >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:02:55 PM PST US From: "Jerry Deckard" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Downwind landing tips? Jack Who was it that had a kolb at Dexter? Jerry Deckard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack B. Hart" Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 3:32 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Downwind landing tips? > > At 08:04 AM 4/9/11 -0700, you wrote: >> > Richard's email reminded me of my first experience with a Kolb design. > Before purchasing a FireFly kit, I wanted to see a Kolb design in the > flesh. > I had contacted the old Kolb Company and asked it there was someone in > southeast Missouri that had a Kolb. I was given a name and telephone > number > for a fellow who worked in a Dexter, Missouri machine shop. We made > arrangements to meet after his work day and trailed him further west and > north to an out in the country hayfield and landing strip. At the > entrance > of the field there was a truck trailer set up on cement blocks and it was > a > little machine shop he had set up and in which he had built his FireStar. > He said he was going to build a house on the property. > > His landing strip was north and south along the west line fence, and it > was > filled with mature trees. We walked out to a trailer on which the > FireStar > was folded and covered by a tarp. We removed the tarp and unfolded the > wings while it sat on the trailer. He had not covered the cockpit end of > the wings and so they rumbled and rattled as the acorns and hickory nuts > rolled around in the leading edge compartments. > > His trailer was interesting in that it squat so that the lower frame > rested > on the ground. He used some VW Rabbit rear wheel spindles on swing arms > outside the frame with a locking lever arrangement to lift the frame up > into > the transport position. This made it easy to roll the plane off the > trailer > bed. > > He started and warmed it up and proceed to taxi to the north end of the > strip. I stood there wondering how he was going to handle the cross wind > from the west coming over and through the trees in the line fence. He > handled it very well on take off and few several low passes and then he > set > up for a landing. He kept the speed up and came down through the rotor > off > the trees, fighting and crabbing to keep position and the wings somewhat > level. Then I realized he was much to hot and I backed closer to the tree > line. He touched down about 50 feet from me, shut the engine off and > kicked > a hard left rudder into the un mowed hay field. Then he held full right > rudder, and the plane stopped 50 feet on the other side me with the nose > sticking out of the hay. > > We pulled it a little ways to the trailer, de-hayed the horizontal tail > and > cables, and the landing gear, and rolled it on the trailer bed, folded the > wings, and covered it back up with the tarp. It was ready for the > squirrel > to resume his work of adding nuts to the wing interior. > > I went home and mailed off my check for the FireFly. Years later, I > passed > by and stopped to see him but he was not home. He had completed his house. > Later on, I flew down and over to a Poplar Bluff, MO fly in, and on the > return flight I flew over his home site as a way of saying thank you for > helping me to make up my mind about a Kolb FireFly. > > The tubing need to splice the broken FireFly wing braces has come, and > tomorrow is supposed to be warm. Hope to get started on the repairs. > > Jack B. Hart FF004 > Winchester, IN > > do not archive > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:12:40 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Downwind landing tips? From: "Thom Riddle" Thanks, Jack for that great story. Says a lot about Kolbs and at least some of their pilots. -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY (9G0) Kolb Slingshot SS-021 Jabiru 2200A #1574 Tennessee Prop 64x32 Don't accept your dog's admiration as conclusive evidence that you are wonderful. Ann Landers Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336479#336479 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:00:29 PM PST US From: mark rinehart Subject: Kolb-List: First Flight! After more years building than I care to admit, my Mark3 Classic made it's first flight today. It was a short flight because the engine overheated shortly after takeoff after I turned to downwind. It was running about 135F prior to takeoff, and I had not had any problem with it during previous taxi tests (I had 3.6 hrs engine run time prior to first flight). Airplane handled well, slight left wing heaviness (I fly from the left seat). I made a quick loop around the pattern and landed. I let myself be distracted by the coolant temp and the EIS light flashing red, and dropped the landing in a little. Slightly bent the left gear. Looking at the video, it wasn't the prettiest landing, but I really didn't think it was hard enough to bend the gear leg. I guess I'll be getting a new one from Travis, or the steel gear if I can retrofit it on a Classic. I've heard folks say you can straight the gear leg and reuse it, but I'm a little worried about bending aluminum a lot (is it heat treated?). Not sure what to do about the coolant temp. I had quite a bit of trouble during the engine break-in with coolant temp and had to run two garden hoses (one to each radiator) to waterfall water over it to get thru the engine breaking. I figured this was just because engine break-in is a static test and the engine was new so the seals were being rubbed in. Since then I've had no problems until today. I don't have a coolant recovery bottle but I haven't noticed any fluid coming out of my overflow tube. I'll check the radiator level when the engine cools down and see if it's low. I did burp the system several times during breakin and again after first flight. Didn'd see a lot of air coming out. The engine is new but the twin radiator is used. Instead of the expensive Rotax cross under molded hose I have a a short radiator hose from each radiator connected to a copper cross under tube, but not sure why that wouldn't work. I do have a BRS (canister) and the Rotax engine mounted oil tank, so there is quite a bit of blockage in front of the radiators. I may have to make a pair of baffles to improve the airflow. All in all it was an exciting day. Can't wait to get it fixed and get flying again. Mark Rinehart Indy Mark3 N68MR ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:18:43 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: First Flight! From: Richard Girard Mark, The gear legs are 7075-T6. Pretty tough stuff, they'll handle being straightened more than a few times. I'll tell you what Travis told me, aluminum gear legs are a lot cheaper than fuselage frames. I had similar problems with the Rotax radiators and got rid of them for a one piece motorcycle unit. Try putting an airfoil shaped block off plate in the gap between the radiators to force the air through them rather than letting it spill around the edges. Rick Girard On Sat, Apr 9, 2011 at 8:55 PM, mark rinehart wrote: > > After more years building than I care to admit, my Mark3 Classic made it's > first flight today. It was a short flight because the engine overheated > shortly after takeoff after I turned to downwind. It was running about 135F > prior to takeoff, and I had not had any problem with it during previous taxi > tests (I had 3.6 hrs engine run time prior to first flight). Airplane > handled well, slight left wing heaviness (I fly from the left seat). I made > a quick loop around the pattern and landed. I let myself be distracted by > the coolant temp and the EIS light flashing red, and dropped the landing in > a little. Slightly bent the left gear. Looking at the video, it wasn't the > prettiest landing, but I really didn't think it was hard enough to bend the > gear leg. I guess I'll be getting a new one from Travis, or the steel gear > if I can retrofit it on a Classic. I've heard folks say you can straight the > gear leg and reuse it, but I'm a little worried about bending > aluminum a lot (is it heat treated?). > > Not sure what to do about the coolant temp. I had quite a bit of trouble > during the engine break-in with coolant temp and had to run two garden hoses > (one to each radiator) to waterfall water over it to get thru the engine > breaking. I figured this was just because engine break-in is a static test > and the engine was new so the seals were being rubbed in. Since then I've > had no problems until today. I don't have a coolant recovery bottle but I > haven't noticed any fluid coming out of my overflow tube. I'll check the > radiator level when the engine cools down and see if it's low. I did burp > the system several times during breakin and again after first flight. > Didn'd see a lot of air coming out. The engine is new but the twin radiator > is used. Instead of the expensive Rotax cross under molded hose I have a a > short radiator hose from each radiator connected to a copper cross under > tube, but not sure why that wouldn't work. I do have a BRS (canister) and > the Rotax engine mounted oil tank, so there is quite a bit of blockage in > front of the radiators. I may have to make a pair of baffles to improve the > airflow. > > All in all it was an exciting day. Can't wait to get it fixed and get > flying again. > > > Mark Rinehart > Indy Mark3 N68MR > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.