---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 10/24/11: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:13 AM - Re: the aft cg club... (Gary Aman) 2. 06:48 AM - Re: the aft cg club... (Dennis Thate) 3. 06:48 AM - Re: Kolb-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 10/23/11 (Bob Green) 4. 07:50 AM - Re: Original Firestar II for sale.........thumbs (thumbs) 5. 08:23 AM - Re: the aft cg club... (Dennis Thate) 6. 08:35 AM - Re: Re: the aft cg club... (John Hauck) 7. 09:28 AM - Re: Re: the aft cg club... (Jack B. Hart) 8. 09:46 AM - Re: Re: the aft cg club... (John Hauck) 9. 10:59 AM - Re: Re: the aft cg club... (Richard Girard) 10. 11:01 AM - Landing at Indian Springs (Richard Pike) 11. 11:23 AM - Re: Re: the aft cg club... (John Hauck) 12. 01:22 PM - Re: Landing at Indian Springs (SEASTARSR@aol.com) 13. 01:27 PM - Re: Landing at Indian Springs (Pat Ladd) 14. 02:40 PM - Re: the aft cg club... (Dennis Thate) 15. 03:44 PM - Re: Landing at Indian Springs (robert bean) 16. 10:04 PM - Trailers (JC Gilpin) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:13:56 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: the aft cg club... From: Gary Aman Includes ailerons -----Original Message----- From: Dennis Thate Sent: Sun, Oct 23, 2011 11:09 am Subject: Kolb-List: the aft cg club... My 503 Rotax Kolb Firestar II is built per plans, even at my meager 220 pou nds, I have a aft CG. What are my options to get back in the envelope ? How is the wing cord measured on a Firestar II, does it include the aileron or just the wing ? Thanks -------- Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society. The optimist inve nts the airplane and the pessimist the parachute. ~Gil Stern =C3=A2=C2=C2=C3=A2=C2=C2=9DThese flying machines are just a fad an d will never catch on=C3=A2=C2=C2=C3=A2=C2=C2=9D Unknown Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355790#355790 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:48:02 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: the aft cg club... From: "Dennis Thate" zeprep251(at)aol.com wrote: > Includes ailerons > > > > > > -- Thankyou ! -------- Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society. The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute. ~Gil Stern These flying machines are just a fad and will never catch on Unknown Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355858#355858 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:48:39 AM PST US From: Bob Green Subject: Kolb-List: RE: Kolb-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 10/23/11 Martin: Take a look at the Great Plains Aviation VW with re-drive. It is a 4 cyl. four stroke air-cooled that can be set up with dual ignition (four spark plugs, etc). The re-drive it will turn out close to 100 hp for take off. These are way less than the other 4 cyl.. The Jabiru is a great little engine too, though more expensive. The 912 is no doubt a great engine. There are two or three MKIIIs with the VW engine flying. Rick Neilsen is the Kolb/VW pioneer. He can answer a lot of questions for you. I am in the building process yet on mine but had Kolb set up the fuselage for the GPAS VW 2180cc. I also have a Culver wood prop. I truly believe this is a viable way to go. To each his own. Bob N830PB MKIIIX with GPAS & re-drive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:50:21 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Original Firestar II for sale.........thumbs From: "thumbs" ulflyer The edited version should have been posted before you read my first post. Please check and make sure the edited version got to your computer. If it didn't there may be a problem. Did you read my entire post? That could account for not seeing the price and location. Again if there is a problem with the post please let me know so I can correct it. thanks for the help Gary -------- Gary Souderton, Pa. Firestar II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355869#355869 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:23:52 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: the aft cg club... From: "Dennis Thate" Wonder how many Kolb Firestar II pilots need ballast in the nose cone to be within proper CG's ? -------- Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society. The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute. ~Gil Stern These flying machines are just a fad and will never catch on Unknown Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355872#355872 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:59 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: the aft cg club... Wonder how many Kolb Firestar II pilots need ballast in the nose cone to be within proper CG's ? Dennis T/Folks: If any Kolb aircraft is built anywhere near plans, it will be within cg limits. Sometimes, paper and actuality do not correspond. In your case, at 220 lbs, I'd bet next month's retirement check you do not have an aft cg problem. To prove a point, I installed a 12 lb Maule Tundra Tail wheel on my MKIII. I flies great with no aft cg tendencies. That is with 150 lbs of fuel and 100 lbs of gear behind the main bulkhead. john h mkIII Mobile, Alabama ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:28:30 AM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: the aft cg club... At 10:33 AM 10/24/11 -0500, you wrote: >Dennis T/Folks: > >If any Kolb aircraft is built anywhere near plans, it will be within cg >limits. Sometimes, paper and actuality do not correspond. > >In your case, at 220 lbs, I'd bet next month's retirement check you do not >have an aft cg problem. > >To prove a point, I installed a 12 lb Maule Tundra Tail wheel on my MKIII. >I flies great with no aft cg tendencies. That is with 150 lbs of fuel and >100 lbs of gear behind the main bulkhead. > John, How much does the main gear legs and tundra tires weigh that you moved forward? Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:46:43 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: the aft cg club... How much does the main gear legs and tundra tires weigh that you moved forward? Jack B. Hart FF004 Jack H/Gang: Main gear and 800X6 tires (not tundra tires) weigh about the same as the tail wheel, maybe a little bit more. My main gear is very light, only 24" long 4130 legs, total length. I didn't have a forward cg problem before I added the heavy TW. Have flown my MKIII with the original skinny nylon snowmobile bogie wheel, 6 lb Maule TW (installed now), and the 12 lb TW. Took the big TW off last year when it got to the point it needed some attention, plus thought I might get another MPH out of it with the smaller TW. No difference in performance, other than the solid 6" wheel is much rougher and noisier than the big 8" pneumatic tire. Ground handled much better with the big TW. john h mkIII Mobile, Alabama ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:59:54 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: the aft cg club... From: Richard Girard Aft of what? Toledo? Let's get some real world numbers into this conversation, please. Aft CG has no meaning other than a vague notion and tossing the term around without specifics can be dangerous. If your idea of perfect weight and balance is a CG at 25% MAC then 26% is aft CG. When I modified the Excel spreadsheet for calculating CG position for the Mk III that was posted here some time ago (my apology to its creator, I do not remember who that was) I set the CG limits at 16% and 35%. My aircraft, with just me in it, flew quite nicely at 33%. I did both departure and approach stalls with it at all flap settings and its handling and recovery were impeccable. Would the same have been true at 40%? 45%? I have no idea. Here is an example of what can happen if the CG is too far aft. During WWII, in order to get the P-51 capable of accompanying allied bombers deep into Germany, the aircraft was fitted with an 80 gallon tank located behind the pilot. One new pilot had never flown the Mustang with the CG that far aft (about 45%, as I recall) and his squadron mates forgot to tell him that it was standard practice to drain that tank first. His first mission was uneventful and once back over the English Channel he was offered the opportunity to get in some dog fighting practice with one of the senior pilots. When he attempted a hard turn to evade the "attack" the aircraft performed a snap roll and was very difficult to recover. Back at base, his buddies knew immediately what had happened and apologized for failing to pass along the knowledge about the need to properly manage the P-51's fuel consumption. What is interesting, to me, is that the pilot found no objectionable handling qualities with the CG that far aft until he tried some hard maneuvering. He did report that he never made that mistake again, though. Now a Kolb is not a P-51, regrettably, but the tale does illustrate the need to know just how an aircraft reacts to a particular aft CG condition in all aspects of flight it will encounter. It might be fine in straight and level cruise, but not so good when flying at Va in turbulence. Just a thought. Rick Girard On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 11:43 AM, John Hauck wrote: > > > How much does the main gear legs and tundra tires weigh that you moved > forward? > > Jack B. Hart FF004 > > > Jack H/Gang: > > Main gear and 800X6 tires (not tundra tires) weigh about the same as the > tail wheel, maybe a little bit more. My main gear is very light, only 24" > long 4130 legs, total length. > > I didn't have a forward cg problem before I added the heavy TW. Have flown > my MKIII with the original skinny nylon snowmobile bogie wheel, 6 lb Maule > TW (installed now), and the 12 lb TW. Took the big TW off last year when > it > got to the point it needed some attention, plus thought I might get another > MPH out of it with the smaller TW. No difference in performance, other > than > the solid 6" wheel is much rougher and noisier than the big 8" pneumatic > tire. Ground handled much better with the big TW. > > john h > mkIII > Mobile, Alabama > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:01:47 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Landing at Indian Springs From: "Richard Pike" Went flying for a bit yesterday, this is the landing at my place. If you look close you can see Ed's FSII landing while I am approaching. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1723870789084#!/photo.php?v=2171928133303 -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) richard (at) bcchapel(dot)org Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355880#355880 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:23:28 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: the aft cg club... Now a Kolb is not a P-51, regrettably, but the tale does illustrate the need to know just how an aircraft reacts to a particular aft CG condition in all aspects of flight it will encounter. It might be fine in straight and level cruise, but not so good when flying at Va in turbulence. Just a thought. Rick Girard Rick G/Gang: Good advice. When I was finished testing, after installation of the 12 lb TW, I was satisfied I was still flying a safe, comfortable MKIII. If I left out anything during that test, I am sure I found/experienced it last May and June when I encountered some of the most exciting weather I have flown in. In addition, I made that flight to Oregon and back at max gross weight. My style of flying is much different from the local flight around the patch in an empty airplane. I think you can attest to that, the day I landed at your airstrip, last May, in less than desirable conditions. john h mkIII Mobile, Alabama ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:22:11 PM PST US From: SEASTARSR@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Landing at Indian Springs Great video! How much runway do you regularly use? What do you consider the minimum? Bill Rice N505BR In a message dated 10/24/2011 2:01:54 P.M. US Eastern Daylight Time, richard@bcchapel.org writes: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1723870789084#!/photo.php?v=21719281333 03 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:27:41 PM PST US From: "Pat Ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Landing at Indian Springs Went flying for a bit yesterday>> Lovely pics. Nice countryside with the fall colours just coming in. As in the UK everything is late this year with the trees only now beginning to change. I assume that you have a camera on your helmet. What is it? . Those pics were some of the clearest I have seen very nice Pat ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:40:46 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: the aft cg club... From: "Dennis Thate" I decided to rent a professional scale from the airport and eliminate the bathroom scales. Tomorrow we will redo the W&B and get it down to the a Gnats-Ass . No responsible pilot wants to fly fudging numbers. There is enough risk in flying an experimental aircraft already ! Stay Tuned ! -------- Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society. The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute. ~Gil Stern These flying machines are just a fad and will never catch on Unknown Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355894#355894 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc03204_884.jpg ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:44:04 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Landing at Indian Springs From: robert bean thanks Richard, I needed that. BB MkIII, suzuki On 24, Oct 2011, at 1:58 PM, Richard Pike wrote: > > Went flying for a bit yesterday, this is the landing at my place. If you look close you can see Ed's FSII landing while I am approaching. > https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1723870789084#!/photo.php?v=2171928133303 > > -------- > Richard Pike > Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > richard (at) bcchapel(dot)org > Kingsport, TN 3TN0 > Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. > Hebrews 11:1 > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355880#355880 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:58 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Trailers From: JC Gilpin Gday All, I've bought a FireFly! It's in Mississippi, and luckily I have a friend near enough to there to check it out for me, and he reckons it's very tidy. But no trailer with it...... I just did a search on this forum for 'trailers' and got 2200 hits. I'm now x-eyed and head spinning after sorting through 1200 of them back to the year 2000..... It seems that there's liable to be really serious aircraft damage if you don't do it right. But some good solutions have been worked out and proven by owners. Some excellent home-built trailers and fittings have been developed from experience, but it doesn't sound simple. The same questions are still being asked on the forum today that were being asked in 2000. Some very patient contributors are answering those questions over and over.... But new-comers like myself are still asking where we can buy a suitable trailer. Looking on the latest Kolb site, I was disappointed to find that they don't know of any suitable trailers, and only link to a couple that they admit are too heavy. Following those links I only find trailers built for carrying loads of 5000 lbs! Doesn't sound suitable at all for a 254 lb aircraft plus a few tools and a couple of jerry cans...... Considering that the Kolbs have by far the best wing folding design, and that aspect attracts a lot of us to the Kolb, I would have thought that the company would have made arrangements with a trailer builder, or maybe better a small welding shop, to produce exactly the right trailers to fit the Kolbs - right size, right weight, right springing, right aircraft attachments and good streamlining. Working with the experience of owners who have done it, wouldn't be all that hard.... Once the shop has got the details all sorted out, they could be built at a reasonable cost. Not a big market, but could be a good side-line for the right shop. Seems it'd be good marketing for Kolb, no one else can really offer a 'Trailaplane' package. Talking to friends who build Legal Eagles, they're envious of my flying/camping plans, and are now working on adapting their aircraft to that use. I reckon it could be pretty popular if it was a tidy complete package ready to go. Or if good *detailed* proven plans were available, so we could build ourselves or take those plans to a local welding shop for a quote. If we have to go to a welding shop with only a vague sketch, they're going to have to quote high enough to allow for all the unexpected hitches that will be encountered... If we build it ourselves and each have to figure it out all the details and source the right materials, it's a big, long job....... But in this case I'll be living out of a suitcase so don't have the chance to build one...... So, does anyone have an enclosed trailer suitable for a FireFly for sale?? j.gilpin@bigpond.com Must be light and easy towing and suitable for long hauling, cause my purpose is to tour the USA towing it behind a camper van. I won't get over there until about March, but can't leave it to the last minute to start looking.... If there's something suitable I'll arrange to buy it and store it until I get there. Tailwinds Always, JG ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.