---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 11/16/11: 33 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:31 AM - Re: Some success at last (John Hauck) 2. 04:36 AM - taildraggers? (Pat Ladd) 3. 05:18 AM - Re: Re: Firefly landing gear dimensions, please? (Phil) 4. 06:37 AM - Re: Some success at last (Richard Girard) 5. 07:34 AM - Re: Some success at last (Rick Neilsen) 6. 08:19 AM - Re: Some success at last (Danny) 7. 08:33 AM - Re: Nose wheel on a Kolb MK3X (Kirby, Dennis Civ USAF AFMC AFNWC/ENS) 8. 08:42 AM - Re: Some success at last (Ben Ransom) 9. 08:50 AM - Re: Some success at last (Jack B. Hart) 10. 08:54 AM - Re: Nose wheel on a Kolb MK3X (Richard Pike) 11. 09:01 AM - Re: Some success at last (Michael Welch) 12. 10:51 AM - Re: Some success at last (John Hauck) 13. 11:02 AM - Re: Nose wheel on a Kolb MK3X (ces308) 14. 11:06 AM - Re: Nose wheel on a Kolb MK3X (ces308) 15. 11:28 AM - Re: Re: Nose wheel on a Kolb MK3X (Michael Welch) 16. 12:02 PM - Re: Some success at last (b young) 17. 12:16 PM - Slingshot for sale (Thom Riddle) 18. 12:32 PM - Where to buy two stroke oil? (Phil) 19. 01:46 PM - FireFly - the plane I want! (Tom Stephens) 20. 01:46 PM - Greetings (gyrodude) 21. 01:49 PM - Re: Where to buy two stroke oil? (Lanny Fetterman) 22. 02:15 PM - Re: FireFly - the plane I want! (John Hauck) 23. 02:17 PM - Re: Greetings (John Hauck) 24. 02:24 PM - Re: Where to buy two stroke oil? (John Hauck) 25. 02:28 PM - Re: Greetings (gyrodude) 26. 02:32 PM - Re: FireFly - the plane I want! (George Alexander) 27. 02:44 PM - Re: Re: Greetings (John Hauck) 28. 03:35 PM - Re: FireFly - the plane I want! (Eugene Zimmerman) 29. 03:52 PM - Re: FireFly - the plane I want! (John Hauck) 30. 04:18 PM - Re: Some success at last (Richard Girard) 31. 04:32 PM - Re: Where to buy two stroke oil? (Richard Girard) 32. 04:37 PM - Re: Some success at last (John Hauck) 33. 09:24 PM - Re: FireFly - the plane I want! (Tom Stephens) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:31:34 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Some success at last I still have no idea why P factor is so strong in this airplane. Anyway, I think the airplane is much safer, although I can only fly it for about 30 minutes before I get a cramp in my left calf. Rick Girard Rick G/Kolbers: Before I doubled the size of my rudder trim tab my mkIII flew about 1/2 bubble out of trim. Other than bugging me because it was not perfect, the mkIII flew great that way. In fact, I flew the 17,400 mile flight in 1994, that way. I decided to experiment to correct this problem by offsetting the leading edge of the upper vertical stabilizer. Moved it three times in 1/2" increments. Each time there was insignificant improvement in the adverse yaw. After the experiment was over, I returned the upper vertical stabilizer to its centered position and doubled the length of the rudder trim tab, from one rib bay to two. That fixed the adverse yaw problem. Now my mkIII flies in yaw trim with my feet off the pedals. I believe the adverse yaw problem is caused by the way the rotating prop blast hits the tail section. My prop turns counter clockwise when observed from the rear. All the oil that is blown from the oil tank breather hose hits the left side of the upper vertical stabilizer and the top of the left horizontal stabilizer. My rudder trim tab counteracts this force. That big pusher prop does a lot of weird things to some Kolbs. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:36:09 AM PST US From: "Pat Ladd" Subject: Kolb-List: taildraggers? Hi, It seems that some are making very heavy weather of the current trike versus taildragger posts. Some are just retiring to entrenched positions without really considering the alternative very seriously. I transitioned from gliders to microlights, going solo on a Quicksilver. The old design, with tip draggers operated by pieces of string, if you were lucky. I also had some instruction on a Thruster, an Australian designed taildragger which became very popular here. It was a tractor design but apart from that very like the Kolb with a single pole fuselage and a 503 with a high thrust line.There was never any point made that taildraggers were inherently more of a handful on the ground or of the `taildragger problem`. I didn`t know that there was one. I had never flown a trike gear and just accepted the fact that this was way airplanes behaved. Consequently when I bought a plane of my own, like many pilots I bought the design with which I was familiar.. A Thruster. I had many happy hours in it. Later I bought and built a Challenger. Not because it was a trike undercart, but because it scored over the opposition. Taxiing the plane for the first time was a revelation. It actually went where it was pointed. It did not need constant attention in a cross wind taxy. It sat firmly on 3 wheels and the rudder pedal linked nose wheel was as precise as a car. Take offs were simplified. You started in flying position, no raising the tail `to flying position` Just ease the front wheel off the ground and that seemed to be the speed to transfer directional authority to the rudder. Crosswind take offs and landing were a doddle. I had experienced no trouble with the Thruster in this regard but this was just so much simpler. The Challenger ran on rails. I still landed pretty much in taildragger fashion, on the mains and tail low but as soon as the nose was lowered, absolute directional control. Then the Kolb became available in the UK and with a 4 stroke engine. I had always liked the look of the Kolb ever since I saw its picture on the door of a clubhouse during training. I bought one. I didn`t think for a moment about `the taildragger problem`, What problem? I had never experienced one. I am pretty happy with the Kolb but had I been offered a choice of undercarriages when I placed the order then I would have unhesitatingly gone for the trike. How hanging a wheel on the front would have affected performance is open to argument. It would certainly have produced a plane with different characteristics, but better or worse, who knows?. I suspect that no argument will change the minds of some people but I have approached the problem, because of the training I received and the flying I have done in probably as neutral an attitude as possible and given all things being equal I would go for a trike configuration every time. That being said I do have a sticker on my car that says ` REAL PILOTS FLY TAILDRAGGERS`. Cheers Pat ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:18:19 AM PST US From: Phil Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firefly landing gear dimensions, please? Excellent! How often do you fly? I'll be looking forward to some trips over there by air to get together to fly; you, me, Bob G, Scott K... Phil --- On Tue, 11/15/11, Dan Breitigam wrote: From: Dan Breitigam Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Firefly landing gear dimensions, please? Hey Phil, Sorry, I don't have the dimensions you need.- I do have one of those mid 80's vintage Twinstars with no canopy or nosecone over at the Collegedale a irport.- You should come check it out sometime. Dan [quote="phactor9"]Thanks. That's my 1988 Twinstar. No canopy, nosecone, e nclosure, just bugs-in-the-teeth flying. I miss it very much. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=358081#358081 le, List Admin. le, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:37:51 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Some success at last From: Richard Girard Thanks, John. My Mk III is completely different from yours apparently. It has almost no trim tab and the tab has almost no bend in it, maybe 10 degrees. The plane needs just a smidgeon of left rudder in climb and the same amount of right rudder in cruise. No comparison to yours and none at all to Ken's X. I was pretty tired when I wrote last night and I got the wrong photo for number 3. Here's the correct photo. Rick On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 6:29 AM, John Hauck wrote: > ** ** > > ** ** > > * ***** > > I still have no idea why P factor is so strong in this airplane. **** > > ** ** > > Anyway, I think the airplane is much safer, although I can only fly it for > about 30 minutes before I get a cramp in my left calf.**** > > ** ** > > Rick Girard**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > Rick G/Kolbers:**** > > ** ** > > Before I doubled the size of my rudder trim tab my mkIII flew about 1/2 > bubble out of trim. Other than bugging me because it was not perfect, the > mkIII flew great that way. In fact, I flew the 17,400 mile flight in 1994, > that way.**** > > ** ** > > I decided to experiment to correct this problem by offsetting the leading > edge of the upper vertical stabilizer. Moved it three times in 1/2" > increments. Each time there was insignificant improvement in the adverse > yaw. **** > > ** ** > > After the experiment was over, I returned the upper vertical stabilizer to > its centered position and doubled the length of the rudder trim tab, from > one rib bay to two. That fixed the adverse yaw problem. Now my mkIII > flies in yaw trim with my feet off the pedals.**** > > ** ** > > I believe the adverse yaw problem is caused by the way the rotating prop > blast hits the tail section. My prop turns counter clockwise when observed > from the rear. All the oil that is blown from the oil tank breather hose > hits the left side of the upper vertical stabilizer and the top of the left > horizontal stabilizer. My rudder trim tab counteracts this force.**** > > ** ** > > That big pusher prop does a lot of weird things to some Kolbs.**** > > ** ** > > john h**** > > mkIII**** > > Titus, Alabama**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > > **** > > ** ** > > * > > * > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:34:16 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Some success at last From: Rick Neilsen Rick Keep looking for that cure I don't think this is it. During primary training I was trained to keep the ball centered at all times especially in stall. In less I'm miss interpreting your description I have to believe you were allowing the plane with the trim tab to yaw when going into stall. I currently have the leading edge of my vertical stabilizer off set by about an inch. I really couldn't tell any difference but it has to help the trim tab do its work. My trim tab is defected about 45 degrees and seems to be about right. I add left rudder under full power climb, right rudder power off and just a bit left in cruise. Big high thrust props flying at a high angles of attack produce lots of asymmetrical thrust referred to a P factor. No thrust, no P factor. Your photo was taken from one side so it will naturally look like it is defected. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 9:35 AM, Richard Girard wrote: > Thanks, John. My Mk III is completely different from yours apparently. It > has almost no trim tab and the tab has almost no bend in it, maybe 10 > degrees. The plane needs just a smidgeon of left rudder in climb and the > same amount of right rudder in cruise. No comparison to yours and none at > all to Ken's X. > I was pretty tired when I wrote last night and I got the wrong photo for > number 3. Here's the correct photo. > > Rick > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 6:29 AM, John Hauck wrote: > >> ** ** >> >> ** ** >> >> * ***** >> >> I still have no idea why P factor is so strong in this airplane. **** >> >> ** ** >> >> Anyway, I think the airplane is much safer, although I can only fly it >> for about 30 minutes before I get a cramp in my left calf.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> Rick Girard**** >> >> ** ** >> >> ** ** >> >> ** ** >> >> Rick G/Kolbers:**** >> >> ** ** >> >> Before I doubled the size of my rudder trim tab my mkIII flew about 1/2 >> bubble out of trim. Other than bugging me because it was not perfect, the >> mkIII flew great that way. In fact, I flew the 17,400 mile flight in 1994, >> that way.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> I decided to experiment to correct this problem by offsetting the leading >> edge of the upper vertical stabilizer. Moved it three times in 1/2" >> increments. Each time there was insignificant improvement in the adverse >> yaw. **** >> >> ** ** >> >> After the experiment was over, I returned the upper vertical stabilizer >> to its centered position and doubled the length of the rudder trim tab, >> from one rib bay to two. That fixed the adverse yaw problem. Now my mkIII >> flies in yaw trim with my feet off the pedals.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> I believe the adverse yaw problem is caused by the way the rotating prop >> blast hits the tail section. My prop turns counter clockwise when observed >> from the rear. All the oil that is blown from the oil tank breather hose >> hits the left side of the upper vertical stabilizer and the top of the left >> horizontal stabilizer. My rudder trim tab counteracts this force.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> That big pusher prop does a lot of weird things to some Kolbs.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> john h**** >> >> mkIII**** >> >> Titus, Alabama**** >> >> ** ** >> >> ** ** >> >> >> **** >> >> ** ** >> >> * >> >> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com >> .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com >> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List >> tp://forums.matronics.com >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> * >> >> > > > -- > Zulu Delta > Mk IIIC > Thanks, Homer GBYM > > It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. > - Groucho Marx > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:19:39 AM PST US From: Danny Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Some success at last http://www.av8n.com/how/htm/yaw.html=0A=0A=0A=0A___________________________ _____=0AFrom: John Hauck =0ATo: kolb-list@matronics.c om=0ASent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 6:29 AM=0ASubject: RE: Kolb-List: S ome success at last=0A=0A=0A-=0A-=0AI still have no idea why P factor i s so strong in this airplane. -=0A-=0AAnyway, I think the airplane is m uch safer, although I can only fly it for about 30 minutes before I get a c ramp in my left calf.=0A-=0ARick Girard=0A-=0A-=0A-=0ARick G/Kolber s:=0A-=0ABefore I doubled the size of my rudder trim tab my mkIII flew ab out 1/2 bubble out of trim.- Other than bugging me because it was not per fect, the mkIII flew great that way.- In fact, I flew the 17,400 mile fli ght in 1994, that way.=0A-=0AI decided to experiment to correct this prob lem by offsetting the leading edge of the upper vertical stabilizer.- Mov ed it three times in 1/2" increments.- Each time there was insignificant improvement in the adverse yaw.- =0A-=0AAfter the experiment was over, I returned the upper vertical stabilizer to its centered position and doubl ed the length of the rudder trim tab, from one rib bay to two.- That fixe d the adverse yaw problem.- Now my mkIII flies in yaw trim with my feet o ff the pedals.=0A-=0AI believe the adverse yaw problem is caused by the w ay the rotating prop blast hits the tail section.- My prop turns counter clockwise when observed from the rear.- All the oil that is blown from th e oil tank breather hose hits the left side of the upper vertical stabilize r and the top of the left horizontal stabilizer.- My rudder trim tab coun teracts this force.=0A-=0AThat big pusher prop does a lot of weird things to some Kolbs.=0A-=0Ajohn h=0AmkIII=0ATitus, Alabama=0A-=0A-=0A=0A Archive Search & Download, 7-Day ======= ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:33:28 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Nose wheel on a Kolb MK3X From: "Kirby, Dennis Civ USAF AFMC AFNWC/ENS" robert bean wrote: << ... reason for a nose wheel is to avoid having to S turn a blind ship down the taxiway. That isn't a problem in a Kolb. You would have to try hard to ground loop one too. >> Bob - Uh ... I did it without trying too hard. (ground loop a Kolb) Kolbs are not immune. The wingtip dragged on the asphalt when my Mark-3 got hit from the side by a microburst while rolling for takeoff, and turned me 90 degrees. I was not yet at flying speed. The good news is, the Kolb is a pretty sturdy airplane, and there was no damage to any structure. Just torn fabric on the wingtip - an easy repair. Dennis Kirby Mark-3 do not archive ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:42:59 AM PST US From: Ben Ransom Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Some success at last Maybe it's normal construction method by now, but when I built my Firestar I made the front attachment for my vertical stabilizer a little wider than necessary =97 maybe just an 1/8 inch =97 so that I could shim it either way for desired trim. Seems like it was in the right place from the get go an d I never needed to mess with it. ..or I'm just not that discriminating. ; ) I'm not sure I know whether my prop induced yaw is P factor or corkscrew sw irl hitting more the top half than bottom half. I believe shimming the eng ine pitch angle will help either, but mostly the corkscrew effect. Cheers, -Ben Firestar KXP, 1994 From: Danny > tronics.com> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Some success at last http://www.av8n.com/how/htm/yaw.html From: John Hauck > Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 6:29 AM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Some success at last I still have no idea why P factor is so strong in this airplane. Anyway, I think the airplane is much safer, although I can only fly it for about 30 minutes before I get a cramp in my left calf. Rick Girard Rick G/Kolbers: Before I doubled the size of my rudder trim tab my mkIII flew about 1/2 bub ble out of trim. Other than bugging me because it was not perfect, the mkI II flew great that way. In fact, I flew the 17,400 mile flight in 1994, th at way. I decided to experiment to correct this problem by offsetting the leading e dge of the upper vertical stabilizer. Moved it three times in 1/2" increme nts. Each time there was insignificant improvement in the adverse yaw. After the experiment was over, I returned the upper vertical stabilizer to its centered position and doubled the length of the rudder trim tab, from o ne rib bay to two. That fixed the adverse yaw problem. Now my mkIII flies in yaw trim with my feet off the pedals. I believe the adverse yaw problem is caused by the way the rotating prop bl ast hits the tail section. My prop turns counter clockwise when observed f rom the rear. All the oil that is blown from the oil tank breather hose hi ts the left side of the upper vertical stabilizer and the top of the left h orizontal stabilizer. My rudder trim tab counteracts this force. That big pusher prop does a lot of weird things to some Kolbs. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ollow target=_blank>www.aeroelectric.com /" rel=nofollow target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com ofollow target=_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution rsbooks.com> m> 5.1/5.0 This incoming message has been identified by the UCD central filter s as possible spam. This attachment is provided so that you can review the reasons the message was tagged, and to assist with additional filtering if you wish to supplement the central filters with your own local rules. If yo u have further questions please email ithelp@ucdavis.edu for assistance. Content analysis details: (5.1 points, 5.0 require d) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- ------------------ -------------------------------- 0.6 SPF_SOFTFAIL SPF: sender does not matc h SPF record (softfail) 0.8 SPF_HELO_SOFTFAIL SPF: HELO does not match SPF record (softfail) 2.3 FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 'From' yahoo.com does not match 'Re ceived' headers 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 BAYES_2 0 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 5 to 20% [score: 0.0710] 1.4 MIME_QP_L ONG_LINE RAW: Quoted-printable line longer than 76 chars ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:50:45 AM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Some success at last At 10:40 PM 11/15/11 -0600, you wrote: > ......................... > I still have no idea why P >factor is so strong in this airplane. > Rick, There are a couple of reasons. You have a high powered, high drag, and light weight aircraft. When one trims roll to level the wings during cruise, it counter acts propeller torque and possible P factor due to the propeller axis not being parallel to the direction of flight. If there is no trim on the rudder the aircraft will slip during cruise. To reduce this slip one can reduce the P factor by washering the engine mounts to tilt the engine front to back until one cannot obtain further improvement as indicated by the ball or string. After this you are stuck with adding a trim tab to the rudder to bring the nose around for your normal flight loading and cruise conditions. Fly at any other condition and P factor and engine torque will again come back into focus. Of course when you idle the engine all of these factors disappear. The reason it is so severe in Kolb aircraft is due to the fact that it takes more power and torque to fly at a given cruise speed than a sleeker aircraft of equal weight. Also there is a flywheel gyroscopic progression effect caused by the propeller, which indicates that low inertia propellers will reduc this phenomena. I am fortunate that I can rotate the reduction unit and off set the thrust line to the left or right to compensate and dispense with the use of a rudder trim tab at cruise. fwiw Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:54:35 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Nose wheel on a Kolb MK3X From: "Richard Pike" It is interesting that we went over this topic about a year ago, here is the thread, with pictures of my original - and unneeded - nose gear assembly. http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=75465&highlight I still have the nose wheel assembly out in the hangar, and for whatever it takes to cover the cost of shipping, I'll send it to whoever wants it. Something we hashed over on another thread - as noticeable a difference it makes to your trim when you put streamline coverings on the main gear legs, I suspect that hanging a nose wheel down there is going to really add to the drag equation, and require substantial additional nose up trim. -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) richard (at) bcchapel(dot)org Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=358110#358110 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:53 AM PST US From: Michael Welch Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Some success at last Rick G, I know you are pretty good at analyzing stuff, and with that MkIIIX you're getting a good work-out, but have you checked whether the tailfeather cables are EXACTLY the same length (i.e. matched sets) and are you certain they are tight enough? I recall John H. saying they need to be fairly tight to maintain good flight characteristics. Mike Welch ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:51:39 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Some success at last I recall John H. saying they need to be fairly tight to maintain good flight characteristics. Mike Welch They should be as tight as a banjo string. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:02:44 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Nose wheel on a Kolb MK3X From: "ces308" ....you could put a handicap sticker next to the N number then too...lol JUST KIDDING !!!!...LOL chris ambrose M3X/Jabiru N327CS JUST KIDDING !!!! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=358120#358120 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:06:20 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Nose wheel on a Kolb MK3X From: "ces308" Regarding my plane, it's REALLY close to being done. I only have a couple of days of tinkering with odds and ends to wrap it up! At the moment, it's on hold. Apologies to all about the Sad Sack dribble. Mike Welch Here's a shot of my plane last June. ALL Lexan has been installed since this photo was taken. Mike ...YOUR AIRPLANE IS BEAUTIFUL ! chris ambrose M3X/Jabiru N327CS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=358121#358121 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:28:49 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Nose wheel on a Kolb MK3X From: Michael Welch Thanks, Chris!!! You're very kind. Like our buddy Scott Thompson said, "any plane can be made to look good from a few away". haha Thanks again, Amigo! > > Mike ...YOUR AIRPLANE IS BEAUTIFUL ! > > chris ambrose > M3X/Jabiru > N327CS ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:02:23 PM PST US From: "b young" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Some success at last I still have no idea why P factor is so strong in this airplane. >>>>>>>>> i don't think that we are dealing with "P" factor,,, i think it is simple prop wash, and it is so bad because the prop is so close to the tail.... and there is no fuselage between the prop and tail. "P" factor as explained to me when flying a c 150. the air through the prop in straight and level flight should be perpendicular to the prop. thus the ascending and descending blades of the prop have the same bite in the air. when you are in a climb, the prop disk is no longer perpendicular to the air flow. the descending blade has a greater bite into the air then does the ascending blade. in a C 150 with the prop turning clockwise when looking from the rear, that means, in a climb, the prop blade on the right side has more pull than the blade on the left. turning the plane to the left. SO you have to add right rudder to fly straight. change the concept to the kolb, on the 912, the prop turns counter clock wise when looking from the rear, if the air is perpendicular to the prop in level flight, the pull should be the same, but in a climb, the prop blade while on the left should have more bite into the air,,, wanting to yaw the plane to the right,,, which should require left rudder,,,, but in fact as the swirling mass of air hits the rudder, it moves the tail to the right,(nose left) i have to add right rudder, not left as the "P" factor would suggest, the "P" factor counteracts partially the prop swirling factor, but not completely. this is the simple strait forward explanation,,,, now we have to add into the mix. the air that is being deflected downward from the effect of the wing. that will change the entire dynamic of the problem. to what extent,,, i dont know, that would probably require time in a wind tunnel, now with the 2 strokes, the prop turns clockwise looking from the rear,,, and the pressure are on the opposite side compared to the 912's, and the rudder inputs and trim requirements are opposite. boyd young mkiii utah ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:16:07 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Slingshot for sale From: "Thom Riddle" I just saw a Kolb Slingshot w/ 503 posted for sale on Barnstormers.com. As it happens, for reasons of economics, I've decided to put my Slingshot up for sale too. Just posted an ad on Barnstormers. The reason for selling is that I am losing my hangar partner (splitting 50% of hangar rent) soon and cannot justify paying the entire hangar rent. I've been offered a share in a Diamond Katana (the one I've been maintaining for about six years) which will end up getting me back to about the same flying overhead cost I've had up until now. I'll miss the Slingshot take-off & climb performance but the Katana is lots faster and quieter. Anyone interested in my excellent Slingshot should contact me through the Barnstormers ad. -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY (9G0) Kolb Slingshot SS-021 Jabiru 2200A #1574 Tennessee Prop 64x32 Truth is what stands the test of experience. - Albert Einstein Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=358127#358127 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/slingshotforsale_177.gif ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:32:19 PM PST US From: Phil Subject: Kolb-List: Where to buy two stroke oil? Next topic: What oil do you use, why, and where can you get quantities, and at what price? Castrol TTS cannot be found (discontinued). My bike mechanic (Powersports Honda) recommended Amsoil hp injector ($35/gal) and Amsoil interceptor ($39/gal, higher temperature additives for "power valves"). I told him it wasn't for marine, snow or road transport but for an ultralight, and I wanted all the obvious qualities involved in feeding my two-stroke engine. He said HE could no longer get Castrol TTS from either of his suppliers, either, and suggested Amsoil would be the best. Phil H. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:46:48 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: FireFly - the plane I want! From: "Tom Stephens" I got permission from the photographer of this plane to list. Is this a member's plane? I like it! www.planeaday.com until 9pm PST tonight. After that, http://www.planeaday.com/2011_Nov.htm#111611 Tom -------- Tom Stephens www.planeaday.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=358129#358129 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:46:54 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Greetings From: "gyrodude" I'm a long time ultralight and gyro pilot. I recently bought a Firestar single seat. Have about 6hrs on it now and love it. I fly out of Bear Creek here in central N.C., a 2100ft grass strip. Any Kolbers in the area welcome to stop in. Thanks Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=358130#358130 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 01:49:20 PM PST US From: Lanny Fetterman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Where to buy two stroke oil? Check out Aeroshell II plus (I think that is what it is called). I haven`t tried it yet, however, after reading about it, I plan to use it next spring. N598LF At 03:28 PM 11/16/2011, you wrote: >Next topic: What oil do you use, why, and where can you get >quantities, and at what price? > >Castrol TTS cannot be found (discontinued). > >My bike mechanic (Powersports Honda) recommended Amsoil hp injector >($35/gal) and Amsoil interceptor ($39/gal, higher temperature >additives for "power valves"). I told him it wasn't for marine, snow >or road transport but for an ultralight, and I wanted all the >obvious qualities involved in feeding my two-stroke engine. > >He said HE could no longer get Castrol TTS from either of his >suppliers, either, and suggested Amsoil would be the best. >Phil H. > > >www.buildersbooks.com >http://www.matronics.com/contribution >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List >http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 02:15:28 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: FireFly - the plane I want! Is this a member's plane? I like it! Tom Stephens Looks like Terry Swartz near Smoke Town, PA. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 02:17:40 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Greetings I'm a long time ultralight and gyro pilot. I recently bought a Firestar single seat. Have about 6hrs on it now and love it. I fly out of Bear Creek here in central N.C., a 2100ft grass strip. Any Kolbers in the area welcome to stop in. Thanks Welcome to the Kolb List. What is your name? Found three Bear Creeks in NC. Which one is yours? john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:24:37 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Where to buy two stroke oil? http://www.conocophillipslubricants.com/brands-products/Single.aspx?pid=39&b rand That ought to fill the bill for Rotax air cooled engines. That is as far as I looked. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:28:54 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Greetings From: "gyrodude" Gary Safrit. I'm at NC79 4miles east of Mt. Pleasant. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=358136#358136 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:32:51 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: FireFly - the plane I want! From: "George Alexander" Tom Stephens wrote: > I got permission from the photographer of this plane to list. Is this a member's plane? I like it! > > Tom That would be Terry FRANTZ. Do believe that he dropped from the list. I will forward your email to him. He can contact you if he wishes. Here is another shot of him/his plane. http://home.comcast.net/~kolbplanes/Kolb05_04b.htm -------- George Alexander FS II R503 N709FS http://www.oh2fly.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=358137#358137 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:44:48 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Greetings Gary Safrit. I'm at NC79 4miles east of Mt. Pleasant. Gary S/Kolbers: Now I know where you are. Thanks, john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:35:21 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FireFly - the plane I want! From: Eugene Zimmerman Ooops John, wrong "Terry". Good friend Terry Frantz is the builder/ owner of that beautiful Firefly. He usually monitors the list and will be happy to see his plane featured favorably on this list. Gene Z On Nov 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, John Hauck wrote: > > > > > > Is this a member's plane? I like it! > Tom Stephens > > > > Looks like Terry Swartz near Smoke Town, PA. > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 03:52:04 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: FireFly - the plane I want! Ooops John, wrong "Terry" Gene Z Gene Z/Gang: That was about as close as I could guess on the last name. ;-) john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 04:18:44 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Some success at last From: Richard Girard Okay, I'll go through this one question at a time. "In less I'm miss interpreting your description I have to believe you were allowing the plane with the trim tab to yaw when going into stall." Yes, the trim tab was pushing the tail to the right (nose to the left) and causing the aircraft to break hard left when stalled. With the trim tab gone and my feet off the rudder peddles the yaw string and the ball are centered when the engine is at idle. Any power above about 2800 rpm causes the nose to push off to the right. The more power, the more the right yaw requiring left rudder. "Your photo was taken from one side so it will naturally look like it is defected. " It looks deflected because it is. It takes about half the left rudder travel to center the ball and the yaw string. It's obvious enough that it can be seen from 200 to 300 feet below, that's why my neighbor was able to make his observation. "have you checked whether the tailfeather cables are EXACTLY the same length (i.e. matched sets) and are you certain they are tight enough?" Yep, making new cables was one of the first things I did on this aircraft. They can be strummed like a base viola. One of the few things the OB did was to get the holes in the horizontal stabilizers where the wires attach exactly alike so the left and right "when you are in a climb, the prop disk is no longer perpendicular to the air flow. the descending blade has a greater bite into the air then does the ascending blade." Yep, that's the classic explanation, but both my plane and this X are 582 powered (prop rotation is clockwise viewed from the rear looking forward) and "P" factor is pushing the nose to the right, which means it's the ascending blade doing the pushing. Go figure. My interpretation of this is that the air flowing over the wing is pretty broken up in climb and both sides of the prop above the wing get that crappy inflow. The air coming from under the wing is cleaner so now the ascending blade, on the left has a lower angle of attack and the right side, descending blade is in a stalled condition. It may be wishful thinking, but my Mk III behaves the same way, except that it's not as extreme as it is on the X. When I flew approach stalls yesterday I did them with my feet pulled back so there's no way I was influencing the airplane's actions in yaw. Both clean and with half flaps the yaw string and ball were centered and stayed that way through the stall. I also did power off glides up to 65 mph and the yaw string and ball were centered then, too, again, with my feet off the rudder peddles. Rick Girard On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 1:55 PM, b young wrote: > ** > > ** > I still have no idea why P factor is so strong in this airplane. > >>>>>>>>> > > > i don't think that we are dealing with "P" factor,,, i think it is simple > prop wash, and it is so bad because the prop is so close to the tail.... > and there is no fuselage between the prop and tail. > > "P" factor as explained to me when flying a c 150. > > the air through the prop in straight and level flight should be > perpendicular to the prop. thus the ascending and descending blades of the > prop have the same bite in the air. when you are in a climb, the prop > disk is no longer perpendicular to the air flow. the descending blade has > a greater bite into the air then does the ascending blade. in a C 150 with > the prop turning clockwise when looking from the rear, that means, in a > climb, the prop blade on the right side has more pull than the blade on > the left. turning the plane to the left. SO you have to add right rudder > to fly straight. > > change the concept to the kolb, on the 912, the prop turns counter > clock wise when looking from the rear, > > if the air is perpendicular to the prop in level flight, the pull should > be the same, but in a climb, the prop blade while on the left should have > more bite into the air,,, wanting to yaw the plane to the right,,, which > should require left rudder,,,, but in fact as the swirling mass of air > hits the rudder, it moves the tail to the right,(nose left) i have to > add right rudder, not left as the "P" factor would suggest, the "P" > factor counteracts partially the prop swirling factor, but not completely. > > this is the simple strait forward explanation,,,, now we have to add into > the mix. the air that is being deflected downward from the effect of the > wing. that will change the entire dynamic of the problem. to what > extent,,, i dont know, that would probably require time in a wind tunnel, > > now with the 2 strokes, the prop turns clockwise looking from the > rear,,, and the pressure are on the opposite side compared to the 912's, > and the rudder inputs and trim requirements are opposite. > > boyd young > mkiii utah > > * > > * > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 04:32:58 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Where to buy two stroke oil? From: Richard Girard "Two stroke AeroShell Oil Sport Plus 2 is the first aviation quality oil that has been specifically developed for Light Sport, Very Light and Ultralight 2-stroke engines such as the ROTAX=AE air and water-cooled serie s engines." http://www.shell.com/home/content/aviation/products/lubricants/piston_engin e_oils/sports_plus2/ Rick Girard On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 2:28 PM, Phil wrote: > Next topic: What oil do you use, why, and where can you get quantities, > and at what price? > > Castrol TTS cannot be found (discontinued). > > My bike mechanic (Powersports Honda) recommended Amsoil hp injector > ($35/gal) and Amsoil interceptor ($39/gal, higher temperature additives f or > "power valves"). I told him it wasn't for marine, snow or road transport > but for an ultralight, and I wanted all the obvious qualities involved in > feeding my two-stroke engine. > > He said HE could no longer get Castrol TTS from either of his suppliers, > either, and suggested Amsoil would be the best. > Phil H. > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 04:37:20 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Some success at last Rick G/Kolbers: Prop blast is hitting the right side of the upper vertical stabilizer, clockwise prop rotation. Takes left pedal under power on the two stroke. Just the opposite on the 912 series. Prop turns counterclockwise, blast hits the left side of the upper vertical stabilizer. Takes right pedal or a proper size rudder trim tab to keep the aircraft trimmed in yaw. My Firestar had the same undesirable habit, but the Ultrastar, prop under the tail boom, did not. Don't think anything has changed with these airplanes until TNK stuck the big nose on the MKIII. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 09:24:57 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: FireFly - the plane I want! From: "Tom Stephens" Thanks guys! I see Terry has brakes, but no N number, so I assume he's running as an ultralight, as I would want to? Have any of you or others flown the FireStar and FireFly? I'm curious as to how they compare. Tom -------- Tom Stephens www.planeaday.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=358160#358160 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.