---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 12/10/11: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:53 AM - wiring (Ted Cowan) 2. 03:38 AM - aileron hinge wire (Lanny Fetterman) 3. 04:10 AM - Re: aileron hinge wire (Clyde MacQuarrie) 4. 04:55 AM - Re: aileron hinge wire (Dana Hague) 5. 04:55 AM - Re: Perplexed turns to Bummed (Dana Hague) 6. 05:28 AM - Re: aileron hinge wire (Lanny Fetterman) 7. 05:53 AM - aileron hinge wire (Lanny Fetterman) 8. 06:01 AM - Re: wiring (John Hauck) 9. 06:10 AM - Re: wiring (John Hauck) 10. 06:22 AM - Re: wiring (robert bean) 11. 06:35 AM - Re: wiring (robert bean) 12. 08:43 AM - Re: Re: Mz 201 (Phil) 13. 09:07 AM - Re: Perplexed turns to Bummed (Frankd) 14. 09:22 AM - Re: Mz 201 (mlblank) 15. 09:30 AM - Re: Perplexed turns to Bummed (Richard Girard) 16. 12:37 PM - Re: Re: Mz 201 (Phil) 17. 12:38 PM - Re: Perplexed turns to Bummed (Richard Pike) 18. 02:21 PM - Re: Perplexed turns to Bummed (Charlie England) 19. 02:55 PM - Re: Perplexed turns to Bummed (John Hauck) 20. 03:02 PM - Re: Perplexed turns to Bummed (b young) 21. 03:16 PM - Re: Perplexed turns to Bummed (Charlie England) 22. 06:14 PM - Re: aileron hinge wire (HShack@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:53:15 AM PST US From: "Ted Cowan" Subject: Kolb-List: wiring Friend is putting an older 912 on his plane and purchased a Falcon Dual Oil Pressure guage. Apparently it has both temp and pressure on one guage. One wire is for the pressure sending unit and it has a marked volt inlet swith wire. It also has three other wires, red, black and yellow. Does anyone know how these three other wires hook up? Any help would be appreciated. Ted Cowan, Slingshot, 912 UL zoom zoom ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:38:44 AM PST US From: Lanny Fetterman Subject: Kolb-List: aileron hinge wire When I constructed my Firestar II. I cut the hinge wire 1/2 inch shorter then the hinge, then pinched each end of the hinge closed with a pair of pliers. I`m sure that information was in the blueprints. That wire isn`t going anywhere, except where it belongs. Lanny N598LF ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:10:14 AM PST US From: Clyde MacQuarrie Subject: Re: Kolb-List: aileron hinge wire I installed cotter pins in my hinges which makes it easy to remove the wire later on if needed. Clyde MacQuarrie, Mark 111, 582 -------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanny Fetterman" Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 7:36 AM Subject: Kolb-List: aileron hinge wire > > When I constructed my Firestar II. I cut the hinge wire 1/2 inch shorter > then the hinge, then pinched each end of the hinge closed with a pair of > pliers. I`m sure that information was in the blueprints. That wire isn`t > going anywhere, except where it belongs. Lanny N598LF > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:55:32 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: aileron hinge wire At 06:36 AM 12/10/2011, Lanny Fetterman wrote: > >When I constructed my Firestar II. I cut the hinge wire 1/2 inch shorter >then the hinge, then pinched each end of the hinge closed with a pair of >pliers. I`m sure that information was in the blueprints. That wire isn`t >going anywhere, except where it belongs. Lanny N598LF On my Ultrastar, the wire is longer than the hinges, and simply bent a bit on each end so it can't move. -Dana -- Blow your mind, smoke gunpowder. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:55:33 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Perplexed turns to Bummed Angling the thrust line will do little on a pusher like a Kolb, because the engine is so close to the center of the aircraft. One thing that will affect yaw trim is if the wing and stabilizer aren't level with respect to each other. If, for example, the left side of the stabilizer is too high, the aircraft will tend to yaw to the right, and vice versa. The solution may be as simple as adjusting your tail wires. Unequal length wing struts will cause this, if they're on the wrong side. If the right strut is longer than the left, it's the same effect (the left side of the stabilizer will be high relative to the wings) I got some noticeable improvement in yaw trim on my US when I swapped the struts. If course, even if your tail is straight, adjusting the tail wires (so it's not straight) might fix your yaw problem. On the first successful human powered airplane (the Gossamer Condor), tilting the stabilizer was actually the primary yaw control, since it caused less drag than moving the rudder. -Dana At 11:12 PM 12/9/2011, John Hauck wrote: > I flipped the motor mount over and had high hopes that I would at least > get some response in changing the right yaw, and take some of the > pressure off my poor beleaguered left leg. No such luck, no improvement > whatsoever > > >Rick Girard > > >I believe the long, wide nose pod on the Xtra adversely affects yaw when >not kept exactly in yaw trim. > >john h >mkIII >Titus, Alabama > >www.aeroelectric.com >www.buildersbooks.com >http://www.matronics.com/contribution >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List >http://www.matronics.com/contribution > -- Blow your mind, smoke gunpowder. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:28:30 AM PST US From: Lanny Fetterman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: aileron hinge wire At 07:42 AM 12/10/2011, you wrote: >At 06:36 AM 12/10/2011, Lanny Fetterman wrote: >> >>Dana, That sounds like it may cause alot of extra aerodaminic drag! >>;-) :-D Lanny FSII Do not archive > >On my Ultrastar, the wire is longer than the hinges, and simply bent >a bit on each end so it can't move. > >-Dana >-- >Blow your mind, smoke gunpowder. > > >www.buildersbooks.com >http://www.matronics.com/contribution >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List >http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:53:23 AM PST US From: Lanny Fetterman Subject: Kolb-List: aileron hinge wire On my Ultrastar, the wire is longer than the hinges, and simply bent a bit on each end so it can't move. >>Dana, That sounds like it may cause alot of extra aerodaminic drag! >>;-) :-D Lanny FSII Do not archive ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:01:06 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: wiring Friend is putting an older 912 on his plane and purchased a Falcon Dual Oil Pressure guage. Apparently it has both temp and pressure on one guage. One wire is for the pressure sending unit and it has a marked volt inlet swith wire. It also has three other wires, red, black and yellow. Does anyone know how these three other wires hook up? Any help would be appreciated. Ted Cowan, Slingshot, 912 UL zoom zoom Ted C/Gang: Do a Google search for "Falcon Dual Oil Pressure Gauge". Here are instructions for a single gauge: http://www.falcongauge.com/PDFs/instructions/oil%20pressure%20sender.pdf john h MKIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:10:28 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: wiring Here are instructions for a single gauge: http://www.falcongauge.com/PDFs/instructions/oil%20pressure%20sender.pdf I didn't scroll down far enough. Instructions for the dual gauge are at the bottom of the page. Amazing what we can pull out of a Google search for stuff like this. No way we could have done in earlier years. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:22:30 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: wiring From: robert bean Ted, here's a guess. Yellow is usually for instrument lights. Red would be power (+). Black gnd (-) Sending units operate by grounding at the unit via variable resistance. Be sure of continuity between sending unit bases and panel. BB mkIII, suzuki On 10, Dec 2011, at 5:50 AM, Ted Cowan wrote: > > Friend is putting an older 912 on his plane and purchased a Falcon Dual Oil Pressure guage. Apparently it has both temp and pressure on one guage. One wire is for the pressure sending unit and it has a marked volt inlet swith wire. It also has three other wires, red, black and yellow. Does anyone know how these three other wires hook up? Any help would be appreciated. Ted Cowan, Slingshot, 912 UL zoom zoom > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:35:23 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: wiring From: robert bean OOOPS, color me wrong. Thanks John. Some manufacturers go against the grain and use their own rules. My Kolb is set up so a car mechanic would be familiar with it. BB On 10, Dec 2011, at 9:08 AM, John Hauck wrote: > > > > > Here are instructions for a single gauge: > > http://www.falcongauge.com/PDFs/instructions/oil%20pressure%20sender.pdf > > > > > I didn't scroll down far enough. Instructions for the dual gauge are at the > bottom of the page. > > Amazing what we can pull out of a Google search for stuff like this. No way > we could have done in earlier years. > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:43:26 AM PST US From: Phil Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Mz 201 I have so far arrived at the following weights. I will verify these against another scale soon. I will be able to speak more informatively on engine a nd exhaust mounting in the coming weeks. The belt reduc is indeed 1.77:1 - two crank rotations gave ~406 degrees on the PTO and one PTO rotation gave ~636 degrees on the crank. http://phactor.com/Kolb/201/201.htm I do not have weights for the following, yet. prop (wooden TN 60x24 x 1.75hub on order - (931) 455-4516 - talk to Steve!) prop crush plate prop bolts 12v battery engine mounting plate + bolts muffler mounting h/w + bolts Phil H. --- On Fri, 12/9/11, chris davis wrote: From: chris davis Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Mz 201 Phil----Thanks for the comeback , is it as light as they claim? I h ope so talktoyou more as time goes on . Chris - Chris Davis KXP 503 492 hrs Glider Pilot Disabled from crash building Firefly From: Phil Sent: Friday, December 9, 2011 8:17 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Mz 201 I just got my mz201; a gorgeous little engine. I'm building my 103-legal Fi refly over the Winter and I plan on flying this Spring. Stay tuned. http://phactor.com/Kolb/TestStand2.jpg Phil H. --- On Fri, 12/9/11, mlblank wrote: From: mlblank Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mz 201 firefly quick build 2 weeks ago, and I have yet to decide which engine I am going to use. I am considering using a mz201 because of the dual ignition and less weight than the 447. Does anyone use this engine on a pusher, or k now of anyone that has some hours experience with the engine. I was told by someone to just go with a 503 because of the dual ignition, so I talked wi th Travis at kolb about it and He said guys have put 503's on firefly's , b ut I probably won't stay under the legal weight for an ultralight. So I nee d to hear some more pro and cons about the mz201 . Thanks, Michael Blank Ga p Pa Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php ?p=360577#360577http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List http:============== ========= ollow target=_blank>www.aeroelectric.com /" rel=nofollow target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com ofollow target=_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution =nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:07:45 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Perplexed turns to Bummed From: "Frankd" Hi Rick/Kolbers, On Tuesday I attached a rudder trim tab , per John H's specifications, to get rid of the need for right rudder input in cruise flight and take-off. 2 things. a/ I had guessed at the angle and had too much in, so when I flew I had to apply LEFT rudder to keep the string centered. Landed, unbent the tab a little and next flight was good with my feet off the pedals. b/ I did not measure the actual rib spacing on my rudder, just looked up the plans that specified 7 inches between the ribs.. So 14 3/4 inches in length should have been Ok.. NOT. For some reason I spaced my ribs at 7 1/2 inches apart, so the trim tab did not fully span two ribs bays. It still worked wonderfully as I attached it to the Trailing edge as well, but its something to watch for. My engine thrust line is right on the centerline. I cannot mess with that. >From the post I would recheck all angles of incidence of each wing to each other and each Horizontal stab to each other. Having cramps in your left foot sounds just wrong.. I believe something may not be aligned right. I still have a tad of roll to the right ,but its very minor, which I'm going to adjust with bungees to the stick, at first. I also think that the big nose pod on the Xtra has an effect on fore and aft trim. I find I need to constantly adjust elevator to keep straight and level, I cannot fly hands off for very long before it dives or climbs. But thats fine, I like to fly. Its not a big issue. I also wrapped some tinfoil around part of the sparkplug wires on my Jabiru to see if the radio noise was reduced. It did seem to work some. So now I'm going to get some stainless steel braided sleeving and completely cover all the ignition wires with that (with tinfoil inside) to see if my radio reception improves. At full power I cannot hear anything clearly, I have to reduce to about 2000 rpm to hear the traffic. I will keep posting my results on these issues but if I see any funny cat pictures I may throw those in for fun. :) My 2 cents FrankD M3X, N1014S, 8 hrs logged Hollister, Ca Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=360624#360624 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:22:35 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mz 201 From: "mlblank" Thank you for posting the pictures,The engine looks great! I guess you are going without the cooling fan and shroud, would it be possible to mount the cooling fan on later if needed? I won't get my firefly quick build for a couple months yet,So I hope you keep us updated on your progress! Michael Blank Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=360625#360625 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:30:43 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Perplexed turns to Bummed From: Richard Girard Bill, Dana, yes the OB made the struts different lengths. They are marked and on the correct side (on is 1/2" longer than the other and it's obvious if you get them wrong. I did it deliberately once so I could see it for myself. One wing is flat, no dihedral at all, the other is cranked way up. As I told Mike Welch, the tail wires are new, made by me, and as precise as I could make them, to the point that they are interchangeable side to side and they twang when plucked. I long ago fixed the OB's poor installation of the horizontal stabilizer brackets. The attached pictures show how they were when I got the airplane and how they are now (although the HS's are in the bottom holes of the brackets now). Dana, When I put the offset motor mount on with the motor twisted to the left and the thrust center offset about an inch, it DOUBLED the amount of yaw to the right. Rick On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 6:41 AM, Dana Hague wrote: > Angling the thrust line will do little on a pusher like a Kolb, because > the engine is so close to the center of the aircraft. > > One thing that *will* affect yaw trim is if the wing and stabilizer > aren't level with respect to each other. If, for example, the left side of > the stabilizer is too high, the aircraft will tend to yaw to the right, and > vice versa. The solution may be as simple as adjusting your tail wires. > Unequal length wing struts will cause this, if they're on the wrong side. > If the right strut is longer than the left, it's the same effect (the left > side of the stabilizer will be high relative to the wings) I got some > noticeable improvement in yaw trim on my US when I swapped the struts. > > If course, even if your tail *is* straight, adjusting the tail wires (so > it's *not* straight) might fix your yaw problem. > > On the first successful human powered airplane (the Gossamer Condor), > tilting the stabilizer was actually the primary yaw control, since it > caused less drag than moving the rudder. > > -Dana > > > At 11:12 PM 12/9/2011, John Hauck wrote: > > I flipped the motor mount over and had high hopes that I would at least > get some response in changing the right yaw, and take some of the pressure > off my poor beleaguered left leg. No such luck, no improvement whatsoever > > > Rick Girard > > > I believe the long, wide nose pod > on the Xtra adversely affects yaw when not kept exactly in yaw > trim. > > > john > h > > > mkIII > > > Titus, > Alabama > > > www.aeroelectric.comwww.buildersbooks.comwww.homebuilthelp.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > Email Forum -http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > http://forums.matronics.com > - List Contribution Web Site - > -Matt Dralle, List Admin.http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > -- > Blow your mind, smoke gunpowder. > > * > > * > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:37:13 PM PST US From: Phil Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Mz 201 I don't know if you can have all three: pull starter, electric starter, and fan/shroud. My mz201 has pull and elec starter, but no fan/shroud. The mz2 02 has electric start and fan/shroud. But my old Rotax 503 had pull starter and fan/shroud. Anyone know? You should be able to make any mods you want after-the-fact, assuming they' ll fit (see first paragraph), you've left room around your aileron push-pul l linkages, exhaust system, etc., and you have the $bucks. --- On Sat, 12/10/11, mlblank wrote: From: mlblank Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mz 201 Thank you for posting the pictures,The engine looks great! I guess you are going without the cooling fan and shroud, would it be possi ble to mount the cooling fan on later if needed? I won't get my firefly quick build for a couple months yet,So I hope you ke ep us updated on your progress! Michael Blank Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=360625#360625 le, List Admin. le, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:38:55 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Perplexed turns to Bummed From: "Richard Pike" Frankd wrote: > Hi Rick/Kolbers, > > I also wrapped some tinfoil around part of the sparkplug wires on my Jabiru to see if the radio noise was reduced. It did seem to work some. So now I'm going to get some stainless steel braided sleeving and completely cover all the ignition wires with that (with tinfoil inside) to see if my radio reception improves. At full power I cannot hear anything clearly, I have to reduce to about 2000 rpm to hear the traffic. > > FrankD > M3X, N1014S, 8 hrs logged > Hollister, Ca Where is your antenna located? -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) richard (at) bcchapel(dot)org Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=360636#360636 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:21:24 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Perplexed turns to Bummed For a baseline, what does it do if you climb to altitude & pull power to idle, & allow the plane to maintain airspeed? (I mean in terms of yaw/roll; not decent rate...) How does that compare to power off to other similar models in the same idle-power conditions? I have no experience with Kolbs, but I do know that for RV-x's (they are both airplanes, right?), testing involves checking incidence of each wing, how the gear leg fairings are installed (can have as much effect as the rudder), even how sharp the trailing edges of the aluminum ailerons are folded; all have major effects on the yaw/roll characteristics. The RV's have significant vertical stab offset built into the design, & most still need a trim tab on the rudder. Anyway, the reason for the question is to figure out whether you have problem with engine installation or an airframe alignment issue. Charlie On 12/10/2011 11:28 AM, Richard Girard wrote: > Bill, Dana, yes the OB made the struts different lengths. They are > marked and on the correct side (on is 1/2" longer than the other and > it's obvious if you get them wrong. I did it deliberately once so I > could see it for myself. One wing is flat, no dihedral at all, the > other is cranked way up. > As I told Mike Welch, the tail wires are new, made by me, and as > precise as I could make them, to the point that they are > interchangeable side to side and they twang when plucked. > I long ago fixed the OB's poor installation of the horizontal > stabilizer brackets. The attached pictures show how they were when I > got the airplane and how they are now (although the HS's are in the > bottom holes of the brackets now). > Dana, When I put the offset motor mount on with the motor twisted to > the left and the thrust center offset about an inch, it DOUBLED the > amount of yaw to the right. > > Rick > > On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 6:41 AM, Dana Hague > wrote: > > Angling the thrust line will do little on a pusher like a Kolb, > because the engine is so close to the center of the aircraft. > > One thing that /will/ affect yaw trim is if the wing and > stabilizer aren't level with respect to each other. If, for > example, the left side of the stabilizer is too high, the aircraft > will tend to yaw to the right, and vice versa. The solution may > be as simple as adjusting your tail wires. Unequal length wing > struts will cause this, if they're on the wrong side. If the > right strut is longer than the left, it's the same effect (the > left side of the stabilizer will be high relative to the wings) I > got some noticeable improvement in yaw trim on my US when I > swapped the struts. > > If course, even if your tail /is/ straight, adjusting the tail > wires (so it's /not/ straight) might fix your yaw problem. > > On the first successful human powered airplane (the Gossamer > Condor), tilting the stabilizer was actually the primary yaw > control, since it caused less drag than moving the rudder. > > -Dana > > > At 11:12 PM 12/9/2011, John Hauck wrote: > >> I flipped the motor mount over and had high hopes that I would at >> least get some response in changing the right yaw, and take some >> of the pressure off my poor beleaguered left leg. No such luck, >> no improvement whatsoever >> >> >> Rick Girard >> >> >> >> I believe the long, wide nose pod >> on the Xtra adversely affects yaw when not kept exactly in yaw >> trim. >> >> >> john >> h >> >> mkIII >> >> Titus, >> Alabama >> ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:02 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Perplexed turns to Bummed Anyway, the reason for the question is to figure out whether you have problem with engine installation or an airframe alignment issue. Charlie Charlie E/Gang: I believe an RV is a tractor and a Kolb is a pusher. Both fly much the same with the engine off, but bring in the power and they are two different animals. In my limited experience with Kolbs, trim problems are caused by prop wash and a high thrust line. When I pull off the power of my mkIII, I don't need forced trim or trim tabs to trim up perfectly. But, when I bring the power back up to cruise, I do. The addition of a very long flat nose to the MKIII, to call it a MKIIIx, created a lot of problems. Not only does relative wind grab the nose when it gets out of yaw trim, it also changes relative wind over the tail section. Brother Jim designed and fabricated adjustable brackets for the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizers on my MKIII when we were building it in 1991. My intended purpose for these brackets was to be able to reduce nose down pitching forces caused by the high thrust line. During experimentation I discovered a sweet spot when the center hole of the bracket is used. That is where the leading edge stays, primarily because that is where my MKIII settles down in pitch at cruise power. If I go up or down a hole, flying at cruise is much like trying to balance on a ball. The MKIII wants to fall off the back side or pitch over on its nose. Center hole, she settles down in cruise attitude. Kolb aircraft are happy whether rigged perfectly, if there is such a thing, or not rigged so perfectly. The sheer number of Kolbs happily flying around all over the world is testament to that fact. I think I flew my MKIII half a ball out of yaw trim for the first 8 or 10 years. That included some very long cross country flights and a couple thousand hours. Finally came up with a trim tab that worked, keeping the ball centered. Could I tell the difference in the way my MKIII flew? Don't think so. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:02:53 PM PST US From: "b young" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Perplexed turns to Bummed For a baseline, what does it do if you climb to altitude & pull power to idle, & allow the plane to maintain airspeed? (I mean in terms of yaw/roll; not decent rate...) I have no experience with Kolbs, but I do know that for RV-x's (they are both airplanes, right?), Anyway, the reason for the question is to figure out whether you have problem with engine installation or an airframe alignment issue. Charlie >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. Charlie with the 912 on my mkiii I need right rudder in powered flight.. when pulled to idle and up to speed, I need a small amount of left rudder. the difference is the way the air swirls off the prop when it is being driven, or the swirling air changes direction when the plane is at idle and the air is wind milling the prop. it seems to me if I make an approach at 3200 rpm, plus or minus,,, no rudder input is necessary. yes the kolbs and rv's are both airplanes,,, but in a design standpoint,,, the rv's,, the ones I know of all use an engine that turns clockwise when looking from the back. so trim issues can be built into the design, also the rv's are tractor, and the long fuselage can help straighten the prop blast so it has less affect on the tail, than the kolbs do because of the short open distance between the prop and tail. the other factor is that some kolbs are built with 2 strokes, clockwise when looking from the rear, and the 912 series, that turns counter clock in the pusher configuration. so modifying the airframe would be dependent on the engine used, by building things straight, the mod needed is the rudder trim, left or right depending on the engine used. I hope this made sense, my mind was clear when my fingers started on the keyboard. and because my mind works faster than my fingers,,, sometimes what comes out is less clear than I would like. yes they are both airplanes,, comparing to fruit,,, they are both fruit but the apple and orange differences are still present. boyd young mkiii utah ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:16:17 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Perplexed turns to Bummed On 12/10/2011 04:52 PM, John Hauck wrote: > > **Anyway, the reason for the question is to figure out whether you > have problem with engine installation or an airframe alignment issue. > > Charlie > > Charlie E/Gang: > > I believe an RV is a tractor and a Kolb is a pusher.Both fly much the > same with the engine off, but bring in the power and they are two > different animals. > > In my limited experience with Kolbs, trim problems are caused by prop > wash and a high thrust line.When I pull off the power of my mkIII, I > don't need forced trim or trim tabs to trim up perfectly.But, when I > bring the power back up to cruise, I do. > > The addition of a very long flat nose to the MKIII, to call it a > MKIIIx, created a lot of problems.Not only does relative wind grab the > nose when it gets out of yaw trim, it also changes relative wind over > the tail section. > > Brother Jim designed and fabricated adjustable brackets for the > leading edge of the horizontal stabilizers on my MKIII when we were > building it in 1991.My intended purpose for these brackets was to be > able to reduce nose down pitching forces caused by the high thrust > line.During experimentation I discovered a sweet spot when the center > hole of the bracket is used.That is where the leading edge stays, > primarily because that is where my MKIII settles down in pitch at > cruise power.If I go up or down a hole, flying at cruise is much like > trying to balance on a ball.The MKIII wants to fall off the back side > or pitch over on its nose.Center hole, she settles down in cruise > attitude. > > Kolb aircraft are happy whether rigged perfectly, if there is such a > thing, or not rigged so perfectly.The sheer number of Kolbs happily > flying around all over the world is testament to that fact.I think I > flew my MKIII half a ball out of yaw trim for the first 8 or 10 > years.That included some very long cross country flights and a couple > thousand hours.Finally came up with a trim tab that worked, keeping > the ball centered.Could I tell the difference in the way my MKIII > flew?Don't think so. > > john h > > mkIII > > Titus, Alabama > > * * *We could probably split hairs on what's a real 'pusher', when it comes to flying characteristics. :-) The vertical stab is still in the prop wash on a Kolb, right? His problems seem more related to yaw/roll than pitchover. The point of my question is to ask whether that particular airframe flies differently from other airframes of the same model. It seems obvious, at least to Rick, that it's power-on cruise performance is quite different from what others are experiencing. So that begs the question: Is it engine installation related, or is it airframe alignment related? I haven't followed every single post in this thread; is Rick flying the same or similar motor as typical for this airframe design, and does the prop turn the same direction, and is the diameter significantly larger or smaller than typical for this design? Any or all of the above would have an effect. Charlie * ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 06:14:09 PM PST US From: HShack@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: aileron hinge wire Some years back, I discovered a hinge pin missing from the aileron on my FS II, For some reason, the aileron would not move. It was the inner one. When I replaced the pin, I just cut it about 3/4" long and bent the ends 90*. That makes it easy to see if the pin is in at preflight. Shack In a message dated 12/10/2011 6:38:48 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, donaho1@verizon.net writes: When I constructed my Firestar II. 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