---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 12/15/11: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:15 AM - Re: smoke (Richard Pike) 2. 09:41 AM - Re: Mz 201 (FIRESTARII) 3. 10:42 AM - Re: Re: Mz 201 (Phil) 4. 11:02 AM - Re: smoke (cristalclear13) 5. 01:47 PM - Re: Re: Mz 201 (Gary Aman) 6. 02:12 PM - Re: Re: Mz 201 (John Hauck) 7. 03:58 PM - Re: Re: Mz 201 (chris davis) 8. 04:17 PM - Re: Re: Mz 201 (chris davis) 9. 06:04 PM - Re: smoke (Richard Pike) 10. 06:06 PM - Re: Re: Mz 201 (HShack@aol.com) 11. 07:12 PM - Re: Re: Mz 201 (Phil) 12. 07:35 PM - Re: Re: smoke (Larry Cottrell) 13. 07:55 PM - Re: smoke (Richard Pike) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:15:03 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: smoke From: "Richard Pike" I think I spent $10 when I built mine back in 1985. Worked fine. -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) richard (at) bcchapel(dot)org Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=360953#360953 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:41:16 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mz 201 From: "FIRESTARII" :D Ok guys and gals ya'all got me thinking.... I know next to nothing about the MZ engines and have been seriously considering a re-power of my DCDI-503 powered FSII simply because the engine has very near 300 hours TT. NOW, when I posted that I was considering a Hirth some of you got all abrasive [Rolling Eyes] Is, in your opinion, the MZ a better/same/worse choice than the Hirth? Or do you die hard Rotax folks think I am simply better off having the 503 rebuilt and sticking with what I have??? :? I am not trying to rock the boat again just wondering how the MZ compares to the Hirth and the Rotax? -------- Low and Slow FireStar II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=360964#360964 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:42:35 AM PST US From: Phil Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Mz 201 I decided on the mz201 for my Firefly. I only know what I've studied online about Simonini, Hirth, Rotax (used to own a 503 on my past Twinstar), and the mz line. I will know a lot more once I get my Firefly built and start r unning my mz201 on it (in the Spring). My mz201 weighs in at 75lbs total fly-weight without the mounting plates an d h/w for the engine and exhaust system, but including everything else; bel t reduc, air filter, carb, muffler, elec and pull starters, all ignition co mponents (harness, dual CDI, dual plugs). I thought it would weigh a few po unds less, but as far as I can tell, this is still 15-19 lbs less than the 447, with 4-5 HP more. Phil H. --- On Thu, 12/15/11, FIRESTARII wrote: From: FIRESTARII Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mz 201 :D Ok guys and gals- ya'all got me thinking.... I know next to nothing ab out the MZ engines and have been seriously considering a re-power of my DCD I-503 powered FSII simply because the engine has very near 300 hours TT.- NOW,- when I posted that I was considering a Hirth some of you got all a brasive [Rolling Eyes]---Is, in your opinion, the MZ a better/same/wo rse choice than the Hirth?- Or do you die hard Rotax folks think I am sim ply better off having the 503 rebuilt and sticking with what I have??? :? ---I am not trying to rock the boat again just wondering how the MZ c ompares to the Hirth and the Rotax? -------- Low and Slow FireStar II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=360964#360964 le, List Admin. le, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:02:43 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: smoke From: "cristalclear13" I just wonder where would be the best place to put the container holding the oil in my little plane. I don't think I'd want something permanent because of the weight. And I wouldn't want to throw myself out of balance. It sounds like some training from an experienced person might be in order if there is a possibility of the oil catching on fire if you turn it on or off at the wrong time. It just doesn't sound as easy as I had imagined. I guess I thought maybe something already built could just be attached. I'm not much of a builder. And would the speed of the plane matter? I would think it would. -------- Cristal Waters Kolb Mark II Twinstar Rotax 503 DCSI Sept 2007 Private Pilot Aug 2008 ELSA Repairman for N193Y April 2008 Rotax 2 stroke maintenance April 2009 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=360971#360971 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:47:45 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Mz 201 From: Gary Aman I really believe my 503dcdi can't be the only one to run over 650 hrs.Do a de-carbon if you want to but I'd never overhaul a good running 503 at 300hr s. G.Aman -----Original Message----- From: FIRESTARII Sent: Thu, Dec 15, 2011 12:41 pm Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mz 201 :D Ok guys and gals ya'all got me thinking.... I know next to nothing abou t the MZ engines and have been seriously considering a re-power of my DCDI-503 po wered FSII simply because the engine has very near 300 hours TT. NOW, when I po sted that I was considering a Hirth some of you got all abrasive [Rolling Eyes] Is, in your opinion, the MZ a better/same/worse choice than the Hirth? Or do y ou die hard Rotax folks think I am simply better off having the 503 rebuilt an d sticking with what I have??? :? I am not trying to rock the boat again ju st wondering how the MZ compares to the Hirth and the Rotax? -------- Low and Slow FireStar II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=360964#360964 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:12:26 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Mz 201 I really believe my 503dcdi can't be the only one to run over 650 hrs.Do a de-carbon if you want to but I'd never overhaul a good running 503 at 300hrs. G.Aman Gary A/Gang: I'm with Gary on this one. The Rotax TBO for ultralight and experimental aircraft engines is "recommended" only. Not required. It doesn't mean you must go with a new crank, pistons, rings, etc. What it means is to look and verify if a component is out of spec and needs replacing. If it was my engine, I'd run it, like I have all my two strokes and four strokes, run them until they start to tell me they are getting tired or give me some other indication they don't feel well. Establishing a base line compression test when the engine is new might be a good idea to tell you if it is getting tired later on in life. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:58:09 PM PST US From: chris davis Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Mz 201 John im with you on this and most everything else aircrasft wise . I flew m yRotax 503, -492 hrs just checked the rings every year and used the right amount of oil and before it was sold i sent it to be rebuilt the report fr om "LOCKHEAD' was the engine was in very good condition .I never decarboned the engine as I believed I would do more damage taking it apart and puttin g it back together ! and i am an LA tech trained motorcycle mechanic Im not saying that the average used and somtimes abused rotax 503 shouldnt be tak en care of by the numbers but those numbers are "recomended " not etched in chromemoly . Chris Chris Davis KXP 503 492 hrs Glider Pilot Disabled from crash building Firefly --- On Thu, 12/15/11, John Hauck wrote: From: John Hauck Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Mz 201 I really believe my 503dcdi can't be the only one to run over 650 hrs.Do a de-carbon if you want to but I'd never overhaul a good running 503 at 300hrs. G.Aman Gary A/Gang: I'm with Gary on this one.- The Rotax TBO for ultralight and experimental aircraft engines is "recommended" only.- Not required.- It doesn't mean you must go with a new crank, pistons, rings, etc.- What it means is to look and verify if a component is out of spec and needs replacing. If it was my engine, I'd run it, like I have all my two strokes and four strokes, run them until they start to tell me they are getting tired or giv e me some other indication they don't feel well. Establishing a base line compression test when the engine is new might be a good idea to tell you if it is getting tired later on in life. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama le, List Admin. le, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:17:51 PM PST US From: chris davis Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Mz 201 Phil , Did you happen to ask what the weight of the fan cooling system woul d be?I am Only concerned Bryan at Kolb was worried about cooling .- Why n ot take off the pullstart and add the fan cooling I think that would be a e ven trade. I am going to Email the factory and ask the questiion tonight. I will let you know as soon as I get an answer Chris Chris Davis KXP 503 492 hrs Glider Pilot Disabled from crash building Firefly --- On Thu, 12/15/11, Phil wrote: From: Phil Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Mz 201 I decided on the mz201 for my Firefly. I only know what I've studied online about Simonini, Hirth, Rotax (used to own a 503 on my past Twinstar), and the mz line. I will know a lot more once I get my Firefly built and start r unning my mz201 on it (in the Spring). My mz201 weighs in at 75lbs total fly-weight without the mounting plates an d h/w for the engine and exhaust system, but including everything else; bel t reduc, air filter, carb, muffler, elec and pull starters, all ignition co mponents (harness, dual CDI, dual plugs). I thought it would weigh a few po unds less, but as far as I can tell, this is still 15-19 lbs less than the 447, with 4-5 HP more. Phil H. --- On Thu, 12/15/11, FIRESTARII wrote: From: FIRESTARII Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mz 201 :D Ok guys and gals- ya'all got me thinking.... I know next to nothing ab out the MZ engines and have been seriously considering a re-power of my DCD I-503 powered FSII simply because the engine has very near 300 hours TT.- NOW,- when I posted that I was considering a Hirth some of you got all a brasive [Rolling Eyes]---Is, in your opinion, the MZ a better/same/wo rse choice than the Hirth?- Or do you die hard Rotax folks think I am sim ply better off having the 503 rebuilt and sticking with what I have??? :? ---I am not trying to rock the boat again just wondering how the MZ c ompares to the Hirth and the Rotax? -------- Low and Slow FireStar II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=36="http://www.matronics.co m/contribution" target=_blank>http://www.matro- - - - - - - - - - -Mattvigator?Kolb-List" sp;--> http://f=- - - - - ---- List Contributionsp; - - - - - - - - - - &bs p;--> ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:19 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: smoke From: "Richard Pike" cristalclear13 wrote: > I just wonder where would be the best place to put the container holding the oil in my little plane. I don't think I'd want something permanent because of the weight. And I wouldn't want to throw myself out of balance. > It sounds like some training from an experienced person might be in order if there is a possibility of the oil catching on fire if you turn it on or off at the wrong time. > It just doesn't sound as easy as I had imagined. I guess I thought maybe something already built could just be attached. I'm not much of a builder. > And would the speed of the plane matter? I would think it would. It really is as easy as you imagine, I think too many people make it too complicated. I like the idea of using a pump up sprayer for the oil tank. Back in the day I used a 2 liter bottle with a grommet in the cap and a 1/4" copper tube to the bottom. Soldered a metal valve stem into the line a few inches outside of the bottle, and then ran the line on up to the cockpit. Soldered an off/on valve into the line. On the downstream (low pressure) side of the off/on valve I used fish tank air line to run back to the engine. At the engine I took a hose clamp and drilled a hole in it, took a length of metal brake line and brazed a washer on it and poked it through the hose clamp so that I could clamp the hose clamp around the exhaust pipe and the washer kept the steel tube tight to the exhaust. Make the steel tube long enough that it won't get hot enough to melt the plastic tube. I was using a Rotax 277, and I drilled a hole in the middle section of the exhaust, the part with a ball joint at each end. Pressurized the 2 liter bottle from the air hose, the tube fit tight enough in the grommet that it wouldn't leak down. 75 psi worked real well. Once the engine got up to temperature, when you opened the valve, the corvis oil would pour big clouds of smoke out the exhaust pipe. A liter of oil lasted a long time in use. I searched the archives to see if I could find it, but couldn't. I remember discussing this on the list years ago because when I did, somebody took me to task for being a terrible environmentalist... Anyway, I like the idea of using a pump up sprayer and then just rigging an off/on valve and a nozzle - much less work and lower pressure. I never worried about what would happen if you turned the oil on with the engine not running - that's easy. It will fill your muffler up with oil and make one heck of a mess. Something that was interesting is that after a few uses, you could see the pressure pulse wave pattern in the paint, as the paint burned off in some places but not in others. A couple years later one of the baffles in the muffler came loose, and when I cut the can apart to weld it back, there was no mung or carbon in the canister. Also, when you turned the oil on, the RPM went up by about 50. Must not have hurt anything, the last time I heard, that 277 had 750 hours on the original bottom end and the second piston & rings. -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) richard (at) bcchapel(dot)org Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=361000#361000 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:06:35 PM PST US From: HShack@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Mz 201 I have stories I could tell, but they are from several years back; so I won't I did hear that Zanzotera founders were PO'd Hirth people and that it is essentially the same engine. I would rather have a 300 hr, 503 than a new MZ. In a message dated 12/15/2011 7:17:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, capedavis@yahoo.com writes: I am not trying to rock the boat again just wondering how the MZ compares to the Hirth and the Rotax? ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:12:06 PM PST US From: Phil Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Mz 201 It is suggested that the 202 needs the fan, but not the 201. Time will tell . Let us know what the reply to your inquiry is. - Phil H. --- On Thu, 12/15/11, chris davis wrote: From: chris davis Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Mz 201 Phil , Did you happen to ask what the weight of the fan cooling system woul d be?I am Only concerned Bryan at Kolb was worried about cooling .- Why n ot take off the pullstart and add the fan cooling I think that would be a e ven trade. I am going to Email the factory and ask the questiion tonight. I will let you know as soon as I get an answer Chris Chris Davis KXP 503 492 hrs Glider Pilot Disabled from crash building Firefly --- On Thu, 12/15/11, Phil wrote: From: Phil Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Mz 201 I decided on the mz201 for my Firefly. I only know what I've studied online about Simonini, Hirth, Rotax (used to own a 503 on my past Twinstar), and the mz line. I will know a lot more once I get my Firefly built and start r unning my mz201 on it (in the Spring). My mz201 weighs in at 75lbs total fly-weight without the mounting plates an d h/w for the engine and exhaust system, but including everything else; bel t reduc, air filter, carb, muffler, elec and pull starters, all ignition co mponents (harness, dual CDI, dual plugs). I thought it would weigh a few po unds less, but as far as I can tell, this is still 15-19 lbs less than the 447, with 4-5 HP more. Phil H. --- On Thu, 12/15/11, FIRESTARII wrote: From: FIRESTARII Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mz 201 :D Ok guys and gals- ya'all got me thinking.... I know next to nothing ab out the MZ engines and have been seriously considering a re-power of my DCD I-503 powered FSII simply because the engine has very near 300 hours TT.- NOW,- when I posted that I was considering a Hirth some of you got all a brasive [Rolling Eyes]---Is, in your opinion, the MZ a better/same/wo rse choice than the Hirth?- Or do you die hard Rotax folks think I am sim ply better off having the 503 rebuilt and sticking with what I have??? :? ---I am not trying to rock the boat again just wondering how the MZ c ompares to the Hirth and the Rotax? -------- Low and Slow FireStar II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=36="http://www.matronics.co m/contribution" target=_blank>http://www.matro- - - - - - - - - - -Mattvigator?Kolb-List" sp;--> http://f=- - - - - ---- List Contributionsp; - - - - - - - - - - &bs p;--> ollow target=_blank>www.aeroelectric.com /" rel=nofollow target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com ofollow target=_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution =nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:35:13 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: smoke From: Larry Cottrell I find all of this conversation about having a smoke system on a Kolb to be very interesting. I can just picture me flying down the Owyhee Canyon leaving a smoke trail or actually more realistically, enveloped in a cloud of smoke. Mine doesn't fly so fast that I might be able to be able to actually see the landscape. Then of course the next question would be to have a speed dial for the emergency services people that would be making the 2 hour drive to get to where they thought I had gone down. Then of course there is always the question of the artistic value of a straight line of smoke, or if I get really frisky and throw a couple of left and right turns in there to spice it up. I can just imagine the oohs and aaws of the local population when I lumber by stinking up the landscape, and getting the whole rear end of my lovely little Firestar greased up. Then again perhaps the bullshit might slide off a little easier. Larry On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 7:00 PM, Richard Pike wrote: > > > cristalclear13 wrote: > > I just wonder where would be the best place to put the container holding > the oil in my little plane. I don't think I'd want something permanent > because of the weight. And I wouldn't want to throw myself out of balance. > > It sounds like some training from an experienced person might be in > order if there is a possibility of the oil catching on fire if you turn it > on or off at the wrong time. > > It just doesn't sound as easy as I had imagined. I guess I thought > maybe something already built could just be attached. I'm not much of a > builder. > > And would the speed of the plane matter? I would think it would. > > > It really is as easy as you imagine, I think too many people make it too > complicated. I like the idea of using a pump up sprayer for the oil tank. > Back in the day I used a 2 liter bottle with a grommet in the cap and a > 1/4" copper tube to the bottom. Soldered a metal valve stem into the line a > few inches outside of the bottle, and then ran the line on up to the > cockpit. > > Soldered an off/on valve into the line. On the downstream (low pressure) > side of the off/on valve I used fish tank air line to run back to the > engine. At the engine I took a hose clamp and drilled a hole in it, took a > length of metal brake line and brazed a washer on it and poked it through > the hose clamp so that I could clamp the hose clamp around the exhaust > pipe and the washer kept the steel tube tight to the exhaust. Make the > steel tube long enough that it won't get hot enough to melt the plastic > tube. > > I was using a Rotax 277, and I drilled a hole in the middle section of the > exhaust, the part with a ball joint at each end. Pressurized the 2 liter > bottle from the air hose, the tube fit tight enough in the grommet that it > wouldn't leak down. 75 psi worked real well. > > Once the engine got up to temperature, when you opened the valve, the > corvis oil would pour big clouds of smoke out the exhaust pipe. A liter of > oil lasted a long time in use. I searched the archives to see if I could > find it, but couldn't. I remember discussing this on the list years ago > because when I did, somebody took me to task for being a terrible > environmentalist... > > Anyway, I like the idea of using a pump up sprayer and then just rigging > an off/on valve and a nozzle - much less work and lower pressure. I never > worried about what would happen if you turned the oil on with the engine > not running - that's easy. It will fill your muffler up with oil and make > one heck of a mess. > > Something that was interesting is that after a few uses, you could see the > pressure pulse wave pattern in the paint, as the paint burned off in some > places but not in others. A couple years later one of the baffles in the > muffler came loose, and when I cut the can apart to weld it back, there was > no mung or carbon in the canister. Also, when you turned the oil on, the > RPM went up by about 50. Must not have hurt anything, the last time I > heard, that 277 had 750 hours on the original bottom end and the second > piston & rings. > > -------- > Richard Pike > Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > richard (at) bcchapel(dot)org > Kingsport, TN 3TN0 > Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not > seen. > Hebrews 11:1 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=361000#361000 > > -- *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:55:46 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: smoke From: "Richard Pike" lcottrell wrote: > Then of course the next question would be to have a speed dial for the emergency services people that would be making the 2 hour drive to get to where they thought I had gone down. That brings back memories - When the Hummer had the smoke system, we had a supervisor at the tower who was a real ding-dong. If it was on a weekend when the races were running at Bristol, I would fly over the track at altitude, put the smoke on, and then descend and disappear behind the next ridge over, knowing that Milt the Moron was getting bombarded by people calling the tower telling him that they thought they had seen a plane go down. That was before I started preaching - now I don't get to do that stuff anymore; I have to behave. -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) richard (at) bcchapel(dot)org Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 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