---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 01/14/12: 35 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:20 AM - Re: Re: Mk III max takeoff weight (Pat Ladd) 2. 05:35 AM - Re: Mk III max takeoff weight (Watkinsdw) 3. 05:52 AM - Re: Re: Mk III max takeoff weight (Michael Welch) 4. 05:52 AM - Re: He assumed I knew what I was doing... (John Hauck) 5. 06:20 AM - Re: Re: Mk III max takeoff weight (John Hauck) 6. 06:26 AM - Re: Re: Mk III max takeoff weight (Dana Hague) 7. 06:52 AM - Warp Drive prop (william sullivan) 8. 07:05 AM - Re: Re: Mk III max takeoff weight (Rick Neilsen) 9. 07:05 AM - Re: Re: Mk III max takeoff weight (Herb Gayheart) 10. 07:37 AM - Re: Re: Mk III max takeoff weight (Dana Hague) 11. 08:59 AM - Re: He assumed I knew what I was doing... (Ducati SS) 12. 09:32 AM - Re: He assumed I knew what I was doing... (Beauford) 13. 09:37 AM - Re: He assumed I knew what I was doing... (Richard Girard) 14. 09:42 AM - Re: He assumed I knew what I was doing... (Richard Girard) 15. 10:04 AM - Re: Re: Mk III max takeoff weight (Richard Girard) 16. 10:04 AM - Re: He assumed I knew what I was doing... (Ron @ KFHU) 17. 10:07 AM - Re: He assumed I knew what I was doing... (Dana Hague) 18. 10:11 AM - Re: Re: Mk III max takeoff weight (Ron @ KFHU) 19. 10:14 AM - Re: He assumed I knew what I was doing... (b young) 20. 10:20 AM - Re: He assumed I knew what I was doing... (b young) 21. 10:22 AM - Re: He assumed I knew what I was doing... (Ducati SS) 22. 10:38 AM - Re: He assumed I knew what I was doing... (Herb Gayheart) 23. 03:28 PM - Re: Warp Drive prop (Ellery Batchelder Jr) 24. 03:39 PM - Rotax provision (Ozarkflyer) 25. 04:27 PM - Re: Rotax provision (Richard Girard) 26. 04:51 PM - Testing gross weight (Richard Girard) 27. 05:01 PM - Re: Rotax provision (Ozarkflyer) 28. 05:34 PM - Re: Re: Rotax provision (Herb Gayheart) 29. 05:47 PM - Re: Warp Drive prop (Herb Gayheart) 30. 07:30 PM - changes in EAA? (Malcolm Brubaker) 31. 07:41 PM - Re: Warp Drive prop (Richard Girard) 32. 07:49 PM - Re: Warp Drive prop (Ellery Batchelder Jr) 33. 07:55 PM - Re: Re: Rotax provision (Richard Girard) 34. 10:50 PM - Re: He assumed I knew what I was doing... (henry.voris) 35. 11:31 PM - Re: Warp Drive prop (Bob) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:20:48 AM PST US From: "Pat Ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Mk III max takeoff weight but wonder how to avoid making a really expensive single place Kolb. (My wife would kinda like to come along...) Looks as if you are planning a really expensive one place, or maybe two place grave. You will need a lot of beefing up backed up by a lot of knowledge. Never mind the legality think of airframe stresses. Pat ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:35:44 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mk III max takeoff weight From: "Watkinsdw" Thanks, guys, I'd be interested in knowing what airframe changes would make it safer. I've see Mk III's at S&F with floats, and would like to be able to take advantage of all the lakes and rivers in S. FL. Maybe Bryan is my best source for technical advice on this. I do have a BRS and would like to keep the wife. We're going on 25 years, and I'm almost off probation! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=363716#363716 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:52:25 AM PST US From: Michael Welch Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Mk III max takeoff weight Dave, I've passed the 40 year mark, and I'm pretty sure you never get off probation. Mike Welch On Jan 14, 2012, at 7:33 AM, Watkinsdw wrote: > > Thanks, guys, > I'd be interested in knowing what airframe changes would make it safer. > I've see Mk III's at S&F with floats, and would like to be able to take advantage of all the lakes and rivers in S. FL. > Maybe Bryan is my best source for technical advice on this. > I do have a BRS and would like to keep the wife. We're going on 25 years, and I'm almost off probation! > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=363716#363716 > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:52:55 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: He assumed I knew what I was doing... When Rotax sets limits for the difference of temperature allowable between cylinders, Im pretty sure they are figuring on both pistons being the same size (Krauts are like that) A larger than normal temperature difference in an engine with matching pistons could indicate a problem However, in an engine with different sized pistons, perhaps this temperature difference should simply be expected. Comments? -------- Henry Henry V/Kolbers: This is the difference in size between your two pistons: 0.0004 inch I doubt 4/10,000 inch will make a whole lot of difference. The 447 is not a watch. Austrian standards are not that tight on 447 engines. Most of the temp difference is probably difference in port size and shape, and other differences in air and fuel flow. They don't do a good job of matching them with the cast iron sleeves. What are the difference in size of bore of the cylinders? Are they within 4/10,000 inch? How accurate and repeatable is your instrumentation? I've seen Kolbers ruin their flying experience because they couldn't get a couple of Westach gauges to agree. Spent more time trying to get everything to match precisely than getting out there and having fun flying. If it was mine, I'd take the warmer temps from the hotter cyl for operating limits, fly and enjoy. I was told by an old time engine builder, that matched the ports and balanced my pistons, pins, and rings, on my 447's, "a little carbon is needed on the tops of the pistons to help lower operating temps of the piston." Carbon acts as an insulator. BTW: I had good luck with my 447's. I had two, one on the Firestar and one on the bench ready to go. Balancing and matching ports made the 447 produce more power and reduced vibration. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama - 20F at hauck's holler this morning. Ain't going flying today. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:20:48 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Mk III max takeoff weight I'd be interested in knowing what airframe changes would make it safer. David Watkins David W/Kolbers: I think Rick N was referring to me when he spoke of a test pilot and a 1200 lb max gross weight MKIII. To answer your question, we didn't do anything to the airframe to beef it up. My MKIII airframe was built at the old Kolb Factory in January and February 1991, by me and Brother Jim Hauck. We did make some changes to the airframe and other components, but not to increase max gross weight capability. Each was blessed each morning when Homer Kolb came to work. Many of these changes were incorporated in the MKIII kits. This was during the time the first 12 MKIII airframes were being built and prior to shipment of the first MKIII Kit, Number 1, to Rudy Doctor. My airframe is Number 11. Most of you MKIII builders and flyers don't know that a lot of the components and changes to the original MKIII Kit were designed and fabricated by my Brother Jim Hauck, with a little help from his little Brother, me. I did add additional lateral bracing to the wings, and reinforced the noses of all 10 ribs and the tails of the first four outboard ribs on each wing panel. This was done in anticipation of winds and weather I would encounter on my 1994 flight around CONUS and up to the North Slope of Alaska. The changes to the ribs were per a plans sheet by Dennis Souder to reinforce the outboard wing rib of all kits to help prevent damage during wing folding and handling. Other mods, moving main gear forward, etc., had nothing to do with increasing the gross weight capability of my MKIII. The standard MKIII is overbuilt (my opinion). We did little things like increase bolt sizes from 5/16" to 3/8" for the inboard main spar attachment to the fuselage. Not much else. I don't recommend anyone change the gross weight of the MKIII without coordinating with Kolb Aircraft and other proper procedures with the FAA. Again, my MKIII was built and changes blessed by Homer Kolb, placarded for 1,200 lbs max gross weight, which is indicated on my Airworthiness Certificate. It has been thoroughly tested and proved to be a tremendous little airplane. I had no idea Miss P'fer ("P" fer plane) would ever accomplish the flights she has made the last 20 years. She sits patiently in the old sagging T hanger at Gantt International Airport, ready and willing to go anywhere I am courageous enough to point her. I think if you contact Bryan, he will tell you your MKIII will be able to haul floats and a passenger. It has been done in the past. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:26:20 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Mk III max takeoff weight At 11:58 PM 1/13/2012, Rick Neilsen wrote: >You have done well to keep the empty weight down to 590. I understand you >want to increase the gross weight. Engine power isn't the limiting factor >and the FAA isn't either. The important part is the air frame. The factory >publishes the gross weight as 1000lbs. They do allow some margin extra and >I for one have increased my MKIIIC to1050lbs. I also make a point of >flying only in smooth air when near the 1050lbs. limit... There's a simple relationship (at least in theory) between gross weight and load factor. If, for example, the aircraft was designed to the utility category limit load factor of 4.4g positive, increasing the gross weight from 1000 to 1200 lbs reduced your load factor to 3.66, or a bit less than the normal category limit of 3.8. Fly the airplane gently in smooth air and you'll have no problem... but you _are_ pushing the limit of parameters that were created for a reason. Many aircraft are certificated to normal category with full load and utility category with a reduced load. Now, I don't know what actual load factor the MKIII was designed to (anybody?). In reality, there will likely be one point of the structure that is the weakest link and other areas may well be stronger. Beefing up that weak link may allow it to carry more load, until some other weak link fails. To know for sure requires knowledge of the actual design numbers. You might, for example, beef up the one critical point to be 20% stronger only to have something else fail at only 10% over the max. Or the plane may already be overbuilt; planes often are, to take advantage of readily available materials instead of using the smallest possible size. John's example shows that 1200# is possible for one particular well built and well maintained aircraft. Performance issues are another story. Add weight and climb gets worse, stall speed and fuel consumption increase, etc. A friend of mine put floats (of course there's a drag issue there too) on a 503 powered FSII, and what had been a plane with sparkling performance turned into one that flew, in his words, "like a cinder block". -Dana -- A tree: first you chop it down, then you chop it up. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:52:16 AM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Kolb-List: Warp Drive prop - Ellery- Did anyone ever find out about the prop that came apart?- Las t I remember, there was a discussion as to whether or not it was a stock fa ctory Warp Drive. ------------------------- -------------------- Bill Sullivan ------------------------- -------------------- Windsor Locks, Ct. ------------------------- -------------------- FS 447, Warp D rive prop ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:05 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Mk III max takeoff weight From: Rick Neilsen John I didn't mean to infer that your plane is unsafe but by definition you are still the test pilot. I felt very comfortable flying in it with you except for maybe one of those high banked turns around a monument at Monument Valley. The point is our planes were design to fly with a maximum gross weight of 1000lbs with a safety margin. The designer tried to have a margin to allow for some poor workman ship, age, long term air frame stress, corrosion etc. I talked at length with Dennis Souder the structural engineer for the MKIIIC and he would not budge on the 1000lb. limit. He indicated there is more safety margin on the MKIII than any other Kolb but..... I have also read crash investigation reports where intended structural improvements actually weaken the air frame or moved the stress to a place that wasn't up to the task. John seems to have built his plane in a way the survives but? Some airplanes have hour limits before they need to be rebuilt, is that from structural failures of is it calculated? Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC > Rick N/Kolbers: > > If that test pilot makes it until 15 March 2012, he will have flown more > than a quarter million miles and 3,100.0 plus hours during the past 20 > years. Almost 2,000.0 hours and 160,000 miles of that cross country, at or > close to max gross weight of 1,200 lbs. > > He may be out of the test phase by now. > > The old MKIII still has a ways to go to catch his 1992 Dodge/Cummins with > 388,000 plus miles and 6,500.0+ hours in 20 years. > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:20 AM PST US From: Herb Gayheart Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Mk III max takeoff weight Interesting stuff , John.... My MkIII was built in Montana or the Dakotas,,there bouts, by a couple of fellows.. It had golf cart size tires and heavy steel gear legs...that were not very well tempered... It weighted 490 some odd pounds...with a 532 and three blade IVO... Herb At 08:17 AM 1/14/2012, you wrote: > > >I'd be interested in knowing what airframe changes would make it safer. > >David Watkins > > >David W/Kolbers: > >I think Rick N was referring to me when he spoke of a test pilot and a 1200 >lb max gross weight MKIII. > >To answer your question, we didn't do anything to the airframe to beef it >up. My MKIII airframe was built at the old Kolb Factory in January and >February 1991, by me and Brother Jim Hauck. We did make some changes to the >airframe and other components, but not to increase max gross weight >capability. Each was blessed each morning when Homer Kolb came to work. >Many of these changes were incorporated in the MKIII kits. This was during >the time the first 12 MKIII airframes were being built and prior to shipment >of the first MKIII Kit, Number 1, to Rudy Doctor. My airframe is Number 11. > > >Most of you MKIII builders and flyers don't know that a lot of the >components and changes to the original MKIII Kit were designed and >fabricated by my Brother Jim Hauck, with a little help from his little >Brother, me. > >I did add additional lateral bracing to the wings, and reinforced the noses >of all 10 ribs and the tails of the first four outboard ribs on each wing >panel. This was done in anticipation of winds and weather I would encounter >on my 1994 flight around CONUS and up to the North Slope of Alaska. The >changes to the ribs were per a plans sheet by Dennis Souder to reinforce the >outboard wing rib of all kits to help prevent damage during wing folding and >handling. > >Other mods, moving main gear forward, etc., had nothing to do with >increasing the gross weight capability of my MKIII. The standard MKIII is >overbuilt (my opinion). > >We did little things like increase bolt sizes from 5/16" to 3/8" for the >inboard main spar attachment to the fuselage. Not much else. > >I don't recommend anyone change the gross weight of the MKIII without >coordinating with Kolb Aircraft and other proper procedures with the FAA. > >Again, my MKIII was built and changes blessed by Homer Kolb, placarded for >1,200 lbs max gross weight, which is indicated on my Airworthiness >Certificate. It has been thoroughly tested and proved to be a tremendous >little airplane. I had no idea Miss P'fer ("P" fer plane) would ever >accomplish the flights she has made the last 20 years. She sits patiently >in the old sagging T hanger at Gantt International Airport, ready and >willing to go anywhere I am courageous enough to point her. > >I think if you contact Bryan, he will tell you your MKIII will be able to >haul floats and a passenger. It has been done in the past. > >john h >mkIII >Titus, Alabama > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:37:38 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Mk III max takeoff weight At 10:02 AM 1/14/2012, Rick Neilsen wrote: >Some airplanes have hour limits before they need to be rebuilt, is that >from structural failures of is it calculated? Metal fatigues, and the fatigue behavior is predictable. This can be used to set life limits, for a specific number of load/unload cycles. The numbers, of course, are adjusted if problems are found during inspections. Light planes rarely reach the number of cycles that airliners do. -Dana -- To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:59:15 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: He assumed I knew what I was doing... From: "Ducati SS" Did you swap EGT probes? if so was the PTO reading still high? During reassembly did you align the cylinder intake manifold surfaces, check the intake manifold with a straight edge, do a post repair pressure test? Remember unlike a 4 stroke a 2 stroke can leak unmetered air almost anywhere but the exhaust port. a small bit of old base gasket left behind can cause a lean condition. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=363741#363741 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:32:10 AM PST US From: "Beauford " Subject: RE: Kolb-List: He assumed I knew what I was doing... Brother Voris: Your temps, as shown in your nifty spread sheet, show deltas on both EGT and CHT which closely resemble mine, but the overall range of yours, is a little cooler. My engine has had two green dot pistons installed about 130 hours ago and I just had it torn down and inspected last month out of suspicion that the crankcase seals were leaking. Nothing significant was found, although one wrist pin was replaced as an "option" since it displayed minor wear. Both con rod top ends and wrist pins showed some bluing which reflected the high temps for which the 447 is well known. For what it's worth, the rear (PTO end) cylinder on mine has always run around 25 to 30 hotter on CHT and 40 to 60 degrees hotter on EGT. I worried about that for a while... played games with minor adjustments of the angle of the Bing on the manifold, repeatedly checking fan belt/shroud, tinkered with jetting and needle, etc. Finally decided to hell with it and just flew it. The CHT's were in the 380 to 405 range at WOT and the EGT's ran 1040 to 1100 at 5800 cruise. Since the teardown inspection, head temps and EGTs have jumped up and I can't figure out why. At WOT climb after about 45 seconds the rear cylinder is climbing through the red line at 425 and the front is right behind it at about 415... I have to throttle back and level off or they would continue to increase. The EGT's are also higher and now show 1100 and 1150 at 5,800 cruise with the heads hanging around 400. The plugs are both a nice brown color. I have run it a total of about three hours since the teardown am about ready to re-torque the heads. Other than the new wrist pin and all of the gaskets and seals, nothing was changed in the engine. The work was done by an experienced, certified shop in which I have confidence. The jets and needle in the Bing are stock sizes and show no wear. The IVO is loaded to the same 6000 RPM static as before. I went so far as to replace all four of the EIS sensor probes to make sure they were giving accurate data... They are. I am baffled by the increased temps. Overall, Henry, yours looks to be running cooler than mine. Personally, I would settle for your temps and just go fly it, watching the plug color for anything strange. My engine, on the other hand, definitely has a newly developed higher temp problem which requires attention... In the absence of any better idea, I am going to start with further searches for leaks in the manifolds and then move into the Bing jetting and setting business... If anyone on the List has experienced similar high temp fun & games with a 447 and successfully whipped the problem, (or blew/burned it up, but executed a successful autopsy) I would appreciate hearing from you. Baffled beauford in Brandon FF-076 -----Original Message----- Subject: Kolb-List: He assumed I knew what I was doing... Cylinder #1, Closest to the alternator, 67.46, green dot Cylinder #2, Closest to the PTO, 67.45, red dot In reviewing the spreadsheet It appears that each piston is operating within the temperature limits set by the factory for operation. The problem is the temperature difference between cylinder #1 and #2. When Rotax sets limits for the difference of temperature allowable between cylinders, Im pretty sure they are figuring on both pistons being the same size (Krauts are like that) A larger than normal temperature difference in an engine with matching pistons could indicate a problem However, in an engine with different sized pistons, perhaps this temperature difference should simply be expected. Comments? -------- Henry Firefly Five-Charlie-Bravo ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:37:10 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: He assumed I knew what I was doing... From: Richard Girard One simple, easy, and cheap thing you can do is check the condition and resistance of the spark plug wires, caps, and the condition of the plugs themselves. Rotax two stroke ignitions are notoriously weak and small differences in the condition of the components can effect ignition efficiency. Rick Girard On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 1:34 AM, henry.voris wrote: > > 13jan12 > > Gentlemen, > > My pal Lance asked, =93So=85 Do you wanna put the big piston in the front or > the rear?=94 > I assumed he was kidding=85 He assumed I knew what I was doing=85 A > train-wreck of assumptions. Deliberating shortly, we figured the larger > piston would run hotter and should live closest to the fan. > > After a couple of hours of swearing, doing-it-again, and fumbling around > we got the thundering 447 back together=85 I=92m sure we got most of thos e dang > needle bearings back in the wristpins=85 > > Back on the plane, the engine fired right up and ran strong=85 But the > cylinder closest to the PTO (#2) was running a bit hotter than the cylind er > closest to the alternator (#1). At 5,000 RPM and above, the temperature > difference (both CHT and EGT) exceeded the difference allowed by the > factory (36=BA CHT and 45=BA EGT). I have attached a spreadsheet that ref lects > the temperatures at different RPMs. > > I got back to Lance and he said that he had not been kidding about two > sizes of pistons=85 I was sick. > > Purchased a dandy little bore-scope from Aircraft Spruce and with more > swearing and fumbling about I could see what I have (done)=85 > Cylinder #1, Closest to the alternator, 67.46, green dot > Cylinder #2, Closest to the PTO, 67.45, red dot > > Cylinder #2 is hotter=85 that shoots my theory about the bigger piston > running hotter=85 > > Also the top of piston #2 has accumulated a coating of carbon in only 5 > hours of operation, while piston #1 is much cleaner. (Photos attached) I > have run only AV-2 two-stroke oil in an effort to minimize carbon build u p=85 > I=92m somewhat disappointed. > > In reviewing the spreadsheet=85 It appears that each piston is operating > within the temperature limits set by the factory for operation. The probl em > is the temperature difference between cylinder #1 and #2. > > Before installing the digital engine monitor, I only knew the temperature s > on one cylinder=85 I would have never have seen this problem and would > probably be having a great time out flying, right now. > > When Rotax sets limits for the difference of temperature allowable betwee n > cylinders, I=92m pretty sure they are figuring on both pistons being the same > size=85 (Krauts are like that=85) A larger than normal temperature differ ence > in an engine with matching pistons could indicate a problem=85 However, i n an > engine with different sized pistons, perhaps this temperature difference > should simply be expected. > > Comments? > > -------- > Henry > Firefly Five-Charlie-Bravo > > Do Not Archive > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=363707#363707 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/cht_egt_run_13jan12_269.xls > http://forums.matronics.com//files/piston_2_pto_6745_red_dot_188.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/piston_1_alt_6746_green_dot_459.jpg > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:42:33 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: He assumed I knew what I was doing... From: Richard Girard Beauford, Do you have spark plug ring temp senders? If so, polish them up with Scotchbrite and do the surface of the head where the sender seats, making sure any debris doesn't go down the plug hole, of course. The senders work on resistance so any corrosion on them or the head will affect their readings. Just a thought. Rick Girard On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Beauford wrote: > > Brother Voris: > > Your temps, as shown in your nifty spread sheet, show deltas on both EGT > and CHT which closely resemble mine, but > the overall range of yours, is a little cooler. My engine has had two > green dot pistons installed about 130 hours ago and I just had it torn do wn > and inspected last month out of suspicion that the crankcase seals were > leaking. Nothing significant was found, although one wrist pin was > replaced as an "option" since it displayed minor wear. Both con rod top > ends and wrist pins showed some bluing which reflected the high temps for > which the 447 is well known. > > For what it's worth, the rear (PTO end) cylinder on mine has always run > around 25 to 30 hotter on CHT and 40 to 60 degrees hotter on EGT. I > worried about that for a while... played games with minor adjustments of > the angle of the Bing on the manifold, repeatedly checking fan belt/shrou d, > tinkered with jetting and needle, etc. Finally decided > to hell with it and just flew it. The CHT's were in the 380 to 405 range > at WOT and the EGT's ran 1040 to 1100 > at 5800 cruise. > > Since the teardown inspection, head temps and EGTs have jumped up and I > can't figure out why. At WOT climb after about 45 seconds the rear > cylinder is climbing through the red line at 425 and the front is right > behind it at about 415... I have to throttle back and level off or they > would continue to increase. The EGT's are also higher and now show 1100 > and 1150 at 5,800 cruise with the heads hanging around 400. The plugs ar e > both a nice brown color. I have run it a total of about three hours sinc e > the teardown am about ready to re-torque the heads. > > Other than the new wrist pin and all of the gaskets and seals, nothing wa s > changed in the engine. The work was done by an experienced, certified sh op > in which I have confidence. The jets and needle in the Bing are stock > sizes and show no wear. The IVO is loaded to the same 6000 RPM static as > before. I went so far as to replace all four of the EIS sensor probes to > make sure they were giving accurate data... They are. I am baffled by t he > increased temps. > > Overall, Henry, yours looks to be running cooler than mine. Personally, I > would settle for your temps and just go fly it, watching the plug color f or > anything strange. > > My engine, on the other hand, definitely has a newly developed higher tem p > problem which requires attention... In the absence of any better idea, I > am going to start with further searches for leaks in the manifolds and th en > move into the Bing jetting and setting business... > > If anyone on the List has experienced similar high temp fun & games with a > 447 and successfully whipped the problem, (or blew/burned it up, but > executed a successful autopsy) I would appreciate hearing from you. > > Baffled beauford in Brandon > FF-076 > -----Original Message----- > > > Subject: Kolb-List: He assumed I knew what I was doing... > > > Cylinder #1, Closest to the alternator, 67.46, green dot > Cylinder #2, Closest to the PTO, 67.45, red dot > > In reviewing the spreadsheet It appears that each piston is oper ating > within the temperature limits set by the factory for operation. The probl em > is the temperature difference between cylinder #1 and #2. > When Rotax sets limits for the difference of temperature allowable betwee n > cylinders, I=99m pretty sure they are figuring on both pistons bein g the > same size (Krauts are like that) A larger than normal t emperature > difference in an engine with matching pistons could indicate a problem > However, in an engine with different sized pistons, perhaps this > temperature difference should simply be expected. > > Comments? > > -------- > Henry > Firefly Five-Charlie-Bravo > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:03 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Mk III max takeoff weight From: Richard Girard I've always found that the Kolb guys do the right thing in their designs, and if that is true in limit loads, too, then the designer would have used a safety factor of 1.5 (pretty much an aircraft industry standard) so the ultimate load would be 6 g's. Limit loads are defined as loads that can be applied that result in no deformation of the structure. Even if the limit load is reduced to 3 and a fraction, unless you are going out and doing snap rolls at max gross your chances of hitting it are slim and nil. Then there is the fact that Va, maneuvering speed goes up with load, not down. Rick, as far as safety goes, if the spar carry through is designed for 4g's with a 110 to 140 lb. engine, it's much less safe putting a 200 lb.+ VW with redrive on the aircraft than just increasing max gross to 1200 lb. I've tested the Mk IIIX to 1108lb, so far, and if the wind stays in the low teens this afternoon I'll have tested it to 1200 lb. by this evening. I worry a lot more about the degradation of climb rate at that weight than I do about limit load. Rick Girard On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 9:22 AM, Dana Hague wrote: > At 10:02 AM 1/14/2012, Rick Neilsen wrote: > > Some airplanes have hour limits before they need to be rebuilt, is that > from structural failures of is it calculated? > > > Metal fatigues, and the fatigue behavior is predictable. This can be used > to set life limits, for a specific number of load/unload cycles. The > numbers, of course, are adjusted if problems are found during inspections. > Light planes rarely reach the number of cycles that airliners do. > > -Dana > -- > To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit > the target. > > * > > * > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:05 AM PST US From: "Ron @ KFHU" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: He assumed I knew what I was doing... The temps are directly related to air/fuel burn and its efficiency, How that mixture is being measured and ignited between the cylinders is what controls the temperature. One carb, two carbs, mixture ratios etc... . Too many variables and scenarios to have a canned answer to the question. Play with the mixtures see what happens if you have two carbs, if not I think what you got is what you got. Ron Mason ============================ ---- "henry.voris" wrote: ============ 13jan12 Gentlemen, My pal Lance asked, So Do you wanna put the big piston in the front or the rear? I assumed he was kidding He assumed I knew what I was doing A train-wreck of assumptions. Deliberating shortly, we figured the larger piston would run hotter and should live closest to the fan. After a couple of hours of swearing, doing-it-again, and fumbling around we got the thundering 447 back together Im sure we got most of those dang needle bearings back in the wristpins Back on the plane, the engine fired right up and ran strong But the cylinder closest to the PTO (#2) was running a bit hotter than the cylinder closest to the alternator (#1). At 5,000 RPM and above, the temperature difference (both CHT and EGT) exceeded the difference allowed by the factory (36 CHT and 45 EGT). I have attached a spreadsheet that reflects the temperatures at different RPMs. I got back to Lance and he said that he had not been kidding about two sizes of pistons I was sick. Purchased a dandy little bore-scope from Aircraft Spruce and with more swearing and fumbling about I could see what I have (done) Cylinder #1, Closest to the alternator, 67.46, green dot Cylinder #2, Closest to the PTO, 67.45, red dot Cylinder #2 is hotter that shoots my theory about the bigger piston running hotter Also the top of piston #2 has accumulated a coating of carbon in only 5 hours of operation, while piston #1 is much cleaner. (Photos attached) I have run only AV-2 two-stroke oil in an effort to minimize carbon build up Im somewhat disappointed. In reviewing the spreadsheet It appears that each piston is operating within the temperature limits set by the factory for operation. The problem is the temperature difference between cylinder #1 and #2. Before installing the digital engine monitor, I only knew the temperatures on one cylinder I would have never have seen this problem and would probably be having a great time out flying, right now. When Rotax sets limits for the difference of temperature allowable between cylinders, Im pretty sure they are figuring on both pistons being the same size (Krauts are like that) A larger than normal temperature difference in an engine with matching pistons could indicate a problem However, in an engine with different sized pistons, perhaps this temperature difference should simply be expected. Comments? -------- Henry Firefly Five-Charlie-Bravo Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=363707#363707 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/cht_egt_run_13jan12_269.xls http://forums.matronics.com//files/piston_2_pto_6745_red_dot_188.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/piston_1_alt_6746_green_dot_459.jpg -- kugelair.com ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:07:43 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: He assumed I knew what I was doing... At 12:40 PM 1/14/2012, Richard Girard wrote: >Beauford, Do you have spark plug ring temp senders? If so, polish them up >with Scotchbrite and do the surface of the head where the sender seats, >making sure any debris doesn't go down the plug hole, of course. The >senders work on resistance so any corrosion on them or the head will >affect their readings. Just a thought. The typical self powered spark plug ring sensor is a thermocouple, not a resistance device. -Dana -- Don't ever think you know what's right for the other person. He might start thinking he knows what's right for you. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:11:14 AM PST US From: "Ron @ KFHU" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Mk III max takeoff weight It may have had more to do with the Rotax 65hp 582 than anything else.... ? Ron Mason KFHU ================== ---- Rick Neilsen wrote: ============ John I didn't mean to infer that your plane is unsafe but by definition you are still the test pilot. I felt very comfortable flying in it with you except for maybe one of those high banked turns around a monument at Monument Valley. The point is our planes were design to fly with a maximum gross weight of 1000lbs with a safety margin. The designer tried to have a margin to allow for some poor workman ship, age, long term air frame stress, corrosion etc. I talked at length with Dennis Souder the structural engineer for the MKIIIC and he would not budge on the 1000lb. limit. He indicated there is more safety margin on the MKIII than any other Kolb but..... I have also read crash investigation reports where intended structural improvements actually weaken the air frame or moved the stress to a place that wasn't up to the task. John seems to have built his plane in a way the survives but? Some airplanes have hour limits before they need to be rebuilt, is that from structural failures of is it calculated? Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC > Rick N/Kolbers: > > If that test pilot makes it until 15 March 2012, he will have flown more > than a quarter million miles and 3,100.0 plus hours during the past 20 > years. Almost 2,000.0 hours and 160,000 miles of that cross country, at or > close to max gross weight of 1,200 lbs. > > He may be out of the test phase by now. > > The old MKIII still has a ways to go to catch his 1992 Dodge/Cummins with > 388,000 plus miles and 6,500.0+ hours in 20 years. > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > > -- kugelair.com ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:14:49 AM PST US From: "b young" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: He assumed I knew what I was doing... Since the teardown inspection, head temps and EGTs have jumped up and I can't figure out why. At WOT climb after about 45 seconds the rear cylinder is climbing through the red line at 425 and the front is right behind it at about 415... I have to throttle back and level off or they would continue to increase. The EGT's are also higher and now show 1100 and 1150 at 5,800 cruise with the heads hanging around 400. The plugs are both a nice brown color. I have run it a total of about three hours since the teardown am about ready to re-torque the heads. Other than the new wrist pin and all of the gaskets and seals, nothing was changed in the engine. The work was done by an experienced, certified shop in which I have confidence. The jets and needle in the Bing are stock sizes and show no wear. The IVO is loaded to the same 6000 RPM static as before. I went so far as to replace all four of the EIS sensor probes to make sure they were giving accurate data... They are. I am baffled by the increased temps. Baffled beauford in Brandon FF-076 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> did you cross hatch the cylinder walls, and install new rings.... if so the higher temps may be there till things seat in. if you did not change rings... i am clueless. boyd do not archive. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:20:09 AM PST US From: "b young" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: He assumed I knew what I was doing... The senders work on resistance so any corrosion on them or the head will affect their readings. Just a thought. -Dana >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. Dana guess i thought they were a thermocouple. depending on which metals are used thermocouples create a small electrical voltage at different temps... devices that work on resistance when the temps change, i believe are thermistors. boyd y do not archive ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:22:35 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: He assumed I knew what I was doing... From: "Ducati SS" I would strongly recommend a pressure/ vac. test during condition inspection, anytime you have unexplained variations in EGTs , and post repair. Even a good mechanic can make a mistake or install a defective part. A seal may become nicked on assembly, a bit of debris may be left on a mating surface or a small void in sealer may occur. Personally I do not even accept the allowed 1 psi per minute drop, the tighter they are the better they start and run. A pressure test will uncover problems with seals, crankcase seal, gaskets and porous castings. A 4 stroke with a leaky crank seal or case makes a mess but a 2 stroke dies a horrible death. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=363753#363753 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:38:12 AM PST US From: Herb Gayheart Subject: Re: Kolb-List: He assumed I knew what I was doing... J type thermocouples....the egt sensors are K type... They generate a small current/voltage...and are very sensitive to resistive connections...I generally make my own cht thermocouples...Herb http://www.omega.com/thermocouples.html At 12:17 PM 1/14/2012, you wrote: >The senders work on resistance so any corrosion on them or the head >will affect their readings. Just a thought. >-Dana > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. > >Dana > guess i thought they were a thermocouple. depending on which > metals are used thermocouples create a small electrical voltage at > different temps... devices that work on resistance when the > temps change, i believe are thermistors. > >boyd y > >do not archive > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:28:01 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Warp Drive prop From: Ellery Batchelder Jr Yes the NTSB report was finally finished up about 3 weeks ago it is a Warp drive Prop and I have been talking to a lawyer I am out an airplane and could have been out of life because of that Prop W ho do they think they are using the public as a test bed for there props why wasn't there ever a service bulletin out on there props to prevent this from happening again this is not the first time this has happened to one of there props from what the FAA h as told me Ellery Batchelder Jr. -----Original Message----- From: william sullivan Sent: Sat, Jan 14, 2012 9:52 am Subject: Kolb-List: Warp Drive prop Ellery- Did anyone ever find out about the prop that came apart? Last I remember, there was a discussion as to whether or not it was a stock factor y Warp Drive. Bill Sullivan Windsor Locks, Ct. FS 447, Warp Drive prop -= - The Kolb-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List - -======================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 03:39:13 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Rotax provision From: "Ozarkflyer" What are the different provisions in reference to Rotax engines and what do they mean? -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=363778#363778 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:27:42 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Rotax provision From: Richard Girard The provisions are mounting holes for gearboxes. A provision 8 has 8 tapped holes on the PTO end of the case to mount gearbox and can mount any current B, C, or E gearbox. A provision 4 engine can only mount an A gearbox (no longer made, but all internal components, if I remember correctly, are common to the B gearbox. A provision 0 engine must use a belt drive where all mounting is done from the engine mount plate (or something similar). Rick Girard On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 5:37 PM, Ozarkflyer wrote: > > What are the different provisions in reference to Rotax engines and what > do they mean? > > -------- > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=363778#363778 > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:51:55 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Testing gross weight From: Richard Girard Finished the weight testing of the aircraft this afternoon. I started with one 80 lb. bag and worked up to three for a gross weight of 1201 lb. I flew one take off and a full stop landing with each and then one more flight with three bags to 3000' AGL to test the approach stall at that weight. Take off roll on grass was roughly 1000'. At the end of the runway I had 300' of altitude. After that climb rate dropped to 300 to 400 feet per minute with the engine turning at 6400 rpm. I also evaluated cruise speed at that gross weight. At 5800 rpm the airplane can maintain level flight at 60 mph IAS. The stall occurred at 46 mph with a distinct break without wing drop. I held the aircraft in stalling attitude for approximately five seconds. According to my variometer the descent rate was 1500 fpm or more (that's the end of its scale). Recovery required only relaxing the back pressure on the stick and she resumed flying. The rest of the flight was a pretty leisurely descent with the engine turning 4500 rpm to keep its heat up (it was 52 degrees at flight time). I shot the approach at 65 to 70 until I was into ground affect then let it settle at 60 until round out. So it can be done, but I wouldn't want to do it if the air temperature was much over 70 or the thermals were normal Kansas strength. Rick Girard -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 05:01:00 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax provision From: "Ozarkflyer" Are any of the engines belt driven other than the provision 0? -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=363787#363787 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 05:34:49 PM PST US From: Herb Gayheart Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax provision Almost any engine can have a belt drive reduction unit...all Rotax...save the 912 series... Herb At 06:58 PM 1/14/2012, you wrote: > >Are any of the engines belt driven other than the provision 0? > >-------- >DO NOT ARCHIVE > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=363787#363787 > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 05:47:17 PM PST US From: Herb Gayheart Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Warp Drive prop May be old news? http://www.ultralightnews.com/ http://www.ultralightnews.ca/advisories1/warpdrivefailure.htm Herb At 05:25 PM 1/14/2012, you wrote: >Yes the NTSB report was finally finished up about 3 weeks ago it is >a Warp drive Prop and I have been talking to a lawyer >I am out an airplane and could have been out of life because of that >Prop Who do they think they are using the public as >a test bed for there props why wasn't there ever a service bulletin >out on there props to prevent this from happening again this is not >the first time this has happened to one of there props from what >the FAA has told me > > >Ellery Batchelder Jr. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: william sullivan >To: kolb list >Sent: Sat, Jan 14, 2012 9:52 am >Subject: Kolb-List: Warp Drive prop > > Ellery- Did anyone ever find out about the prop that came > apart? Last I remember, there was a discussion as to whether or > not it was a stock factory Warp Drive. > > Bill Sullivan > Windsor Locks, Ct. > FS 447, Warp Drive prop > > >get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List >p://forums.matronics.com >blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 07:30:34 PM PST US From: Malcolm Brubaker Subject: Kolb-List: changes in EAA? Hey Folks: The EAA canned a bunch of people today. Some reports suggest 35 were let go. A press release is full of wall-street corporate gobblygook about "capturing opportunities in its long term strategic plan" and that sort of thing. I'm pretty certain that we will continue to see the EAA look more and more like the NBAA and AOPA. More of the stuff that I really could care less about, and fewer of the people and airplanes that make my world go around. Oh well, nothing new, really. Malcolm & Jeanne Brubaker Michigan Sport Pilot Repair LSRM-A, PPC, WS Great Sails - Sailmaker for Ultralight & Light Sport (989)513-3022 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:57 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Warp Drive prop From: Richard Girard Ellery, Do you have the NTSB report #? Rick Girard On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 5:25 PM, Ellery Batchelder Jr wrote: > Yes the NTSB report was finally finished up about 3 weeks ago it is a Warp > drive Prop and I have been talking to a lawyer > I am out an airplane and could have been out of life because of that Prop > Who do they think they are using the public as > a test bed for there props why wasn't there ever a service bulletin out on > there props to prevent this from happening again this is not > the first time this has happened to one of there props from what the FAA > has told me > > > *Ellery Batchelder Jr.* > > > -----Original Message----- > From: william sullivan > To: kolb list > Sent: Sat, Jan 14, 2012 9:52 am > Subject: Kolb-List: Warp Drive prop > > Ellery- Did anyone ever find out about the prop that came apart? > Last I remember, there was a discussion as to whether or not it was a stock > factory Warp Drive. > > Bill Sullivan > Windsor Locks, Ct. > FS 447, Warp Drive prop > > * > > get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > p://forums.matronics.com > blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > * > > * > > * > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 07:49:23 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Warp Drive prop From: Ellery Batchelder Jr ERA11LA150 Ellery Batchelder Jr. -----Original Message----- From: Richard Girard Sent: Sat, Jan 14, 2012 10:42 pm Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Warp Drive prop Ellery, Do you have the NTSB report #? Rick Girard On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 5:25 PM, Ellery Batchelder Jr wrote: Yes the NTSB report was finally finished up about 3 weeks ago it is a Warp drive Prop and I have been talking to a lawyer I am out an airplane and could have been out of life because of that Prop W ho do they think they are using the public as a test bed for there props why wasn't there ever a service bulletin out on there props to prevent this from happening again this is not the first time this has happened to one of there props from what the FAA h as told me Ellery Batchelder Jr. -----Original Message----- From: william sullivan Sent: Sat, Jan 14, 2012 9:52 am Subject: Kolb-List: Warp Drive prop Ellery- Did anyone ever find out about the prop that came apart? Last I remember, there was a discussion as to whether or not it was a stock factor y Warp Drive. Bill Sullivan Windsor Locks, Ct. FS 447, Warp Drive prop get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List ://forums.matronics.com lank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List p://forums.matronics.com blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx -= - The Kolb-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List - -======================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 07:55:34 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax provision From: Richard Girard As Herb said any Rotax can be fitted with a belt drive and they do offer the option of being made, either production or custom, in more varieties of reduction ratio than the gearboxes. Attached are breakdowns of the A and B gearbox. The A has an adapter, part # 41 in the drawing, while the B has this cast into the body of the gearbox case. Rick Girard On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 6:58 PM, Ozarkflyer wrote: > > Are any of the engines belt driven other than the provision 0? > > -------- > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=363787#363787 > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 10:50:53 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: He assumed I knew what I was doing... From: "henry.voris" 14jan12 Thanks guys... FYI... I posted this same message on the Rotax List and have received zero responses so far. Kolb List rules... John... Thanks... That's the type of information I was looking for. I have been inclined to just fly it, because both cylinders were running fine, just at different temps. You asked about my instrumentation... As part of this rebuild I installed the EIS 2000... When I only knew the temperatures on one cylinder, I would have never have seen this "problem" and would probably be having a great time out flying. I plan to take the warmer temperatures from the hotter cylinder to set my operating limits. I too like the 447. After having it all apart, I'm impressed with its simplicity and ruggedness. Even when it was tired, it would always start and run strong. Ducati SS... No I have not (yet) swapped the EGT probes... During assembly I used an official Rotax tool to align the cylinders... But it bolted into the holes for the exhaust manifold, as I recall... Thanks for the word on pressure testing. If I'm still unhappy after running this for awhile pressure testing will be next on my list. Brother Beauford... Sorry to hear about your engine running hot again... I remember you were not happy when you first had the green dots installed... Hopefully Boyd is right and it'll cool down after the rings settle in. Good problem to have, because that means the fix is... you gotta fly it more. You said you set your red line for CHT at 425... I noted with interest that the Rotax Operators Manual from Sept. 01, 2010 (page 37) increases the normal operating range for CHT... 374 to 446, with max at 500. Ron... as you said, "Too many variables..." That's why I like the 447... one ignition system, one carb. John and Brother Beauford have told me what I wanted to hear... The engine is running good... Go fly it. And the new EIS 2000 will give me the ability to keep a close eye on it. Thanks. Boyd... Thanks for the great thermocouple site... Aloha, -------- Henry Firefly Five-Charlie-Bravo Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=363807#363807 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 11:31:37 PM PST US From: "Bob" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Warp Drive prop The =9CFull Narrative=9D doesn=99t go into much detail, but the fact that all three blades showed chordwise cracks as an apparent combination of fatigue and static overload I would think would be a real concern. The lab report didn=99t say so, but one would assume that is the precursor for the delams and eventual shedding of parts. The report has one phrase about =9Cbending forward under airload.=9D??? Some of the Warp hubs had the crack problem a few years back, but I think most people consider the blades pretty much bullet proof. So seems to me you end up with two primary likely scenarios.....you got three bum blades.....or, more likely, something in this particular configuration caused higher inplane loads than normal and led to the chordwise cracks. In the certified world there would be a bunch of expensive rotor dynamics manpower and computers calculating coupled modal frequency placement followed by an order of magnitude more expensive strain gaged flight test. One would hope that if there are other instances of =9Ctransverse=9D cracks in the trailing edges of similar blades, then that information would be quickly shared regarding types of aircraft and engine, time in service, etc. ... Bob From: Ellery Batchelder Jr Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 8:47 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Warp Drive prop ERA11LA150 Ellery Batchelder Jr. -----Original Message----- From: Richard Girard Sent: Sat, Jan 14, 2012 10:42 pm Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Warp Drive prop Ellery, Do you have the NTSB report #? Rick Girard On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 5:25 PM, Ellery Batchelder Jr wrote: Yes the NTSB report was finally finished up about 3 weeks ago it is a Warp drive Prop and I have been talking to a lawyer I am out an airplane and could have been out of life because of that Prop Who do they think they are using the public as a test bed for there props why wasn't there ever a service bulletin out on there props to prevent this from happening again this is not the first time this has happened to one of there props from what the FAA has told me Ellery Batchelder Jr. -----Original Message----- From: william sullivan To: kolb list Sent: Sat, Jan 14, 2012 9:52 am Subject: Kolb-List: Warp Drive prop Ellery- Did anyone ever find out about the prop that came apart? Last I remember, there was a discussion as to whether or not it was a stock factory Warp Drive. Bill Sullivan Windsor Locks, Ct. FS 447, Warp Drive prop get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.