Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:00 AM - Re: FireFly CofG (JC Gilpin)
2. 03:19 AM - Re: Re: FireFly CofG (Pat Ladd)
3. 06:01 AM - Re: Re: FireFly CofG (John Hauck)
4. 07:57 AM - Kolb quit revealed (vic)
5. 11:54 AM - Re: FireFly CofG (Jack B. Hart)
6. 12:16 PM - Re: Re: FireFly CofG (John Hauck)
7. 12:31 PM - Re: Re: FireFly CofG (Herb Gayheart)
8. 12:37 PM - Re: Kolb quit revealed (John Hauck)
9. 01:22 PM - VGs - Flight Report (Kirby, Dennis Civ USAF AFMC AFNWC/ENS)
10. 03:17 PM - Re: VGs - Flight Report (John Hauck)
11. 04:16 PM - Re: VGs - Flight Report (Richard Pike)
12. 06:33 PM - Re: Re: FireFly CofG (Rick Neilsen)
13. 07:15 PM - Re: Re: FireFly CofG (chris davis)
14. 11:05 PM - Official Kolb-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
15. 11:12 PM - Official Kolb-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly CofG |
*
>stick some weight up front, maybe a storage compartment in the nose cone
where you can keep a heavy lunch.
Good idea. I really don't like to carry lead, but food and water is good.
In the remote areas that I like to fly I always like to carry plenty of
water anyhow. So I could live with a couple of water bags and some canned
food right in the nose... If there's room....
My main concern is that a high thrust line pusher is a real trap for aft
CofG. The prop thrust gives a nose-down moment, balancing the nose-up
moment of the aft CofG, making it all balance well, until the engine
stops......... and then that high thrust line suddenly becomes a high drag
line, and then both the high drag line and the aft CofG nose-up moments are
summed. At the same time the elevator authority is much reduced by the lack
of prop blast. Kolb flyers know this from experience, and some have learned
the h-a-r-d way..... I've had a couple of off-list emails strongly
cautioning me to keep power on right to touch-down, and I take that advice
seriously. I'm used to always pulling power at base leg and glide approach
all the way to touchdown, but certainly won't be doing that in the FireFly,
at least in the beginning. But still need to practice dead stick landings
just in case.....
>Not sure of his plans after the tour.
I think the costs and hassles wouldn't be worth it to ship it to Aus. And
besides, I don't have to be restricted to the Cat-103 over here, so can
have two seats, and more range.....
*
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly CofG |
I'm used to always pulling power at base leg and glide approach all the
way to touchdown,>>
If the C of g is anywhere close to where it should be thats fine. I
always use a trickle of power on the approach and close the throttle on
finals in my Xtra.
The effect of the high thrust line is exaggerated in my opinion. You
just deal with it automatically .
>From Oz?. Why don`t you buy a Thruster? Good with a 503. Better with a
Jabiru.
Pat
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly CofG |
I've had a couple of off-list emails strongly cautioning me to keep power
on right to touch-down, and I take that advice seriously. I'm used to
always pulling power at base leg and glide approach all the way to
touchdown, but certainly won't be doing that in the FireFly, at least in the
beginning. But still need to practice dead stick landings just in case.....
JC G/Kolbers:
Don't need power if you simply push the nose down to glide.
Since 1984, when I built and flew my first Kolb, I have made it a habit to
shoot landings at idle power settings just in case the two stroke quit. In
the early days two strokes had a habit of quitting at idle and just when you
needed power. I figured if I could make the field at idle, I could make the
field with dead stick. I carried through with the same habit of flying my
Kolb with the 912 engines for the last 19 years.
Carry power if you can't fly the Kolb.
Never had a problem of lack of elevator authority with a Firefly power on or
off.
Never had a cg problem with a Kolb unless someone built it with drastic
modifications that would change the cg of a plans built Kolb.
I like JC's comment of not carrying lead, but substitute cargo and survival
gear and supplies.
If my MKIII flies well with a 12+ lb Maule Tundra Tail Wheel, I don't think
I have an aft cg problem, power on or power off.
Kolb "quit" only happens to Kolb pilots that land above the airstrip and not
on it. Takes airspeed to stay above the stall.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 4
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| Subject: | Kolb quit revealed |
John and all
"Kolb "quit" only happens to Kolb pilots that land above the airstrip
and not
on it. Takes airspeed to stay above the stall."
When I moved my pitot to the wing strut and added a static line I
realized a 10mph error.
I was not doing 100mph at WOT but 85-90.
My apologies to the great guys at Kolb for whinning a couple years
ago about wheel landing at 60mph not feeling like low and slow to me.
I did my new stall tests at 3000rpm same as approach as I know it will
keep me flying.
Gently pulled back on the stick after slowing a bit. At 35 mph I noticed
a tiny wing waggle. Also whitnessed by a passenger pilot at a slightly
higher speed.
Continued to pull back slightly at about a 3 point stance on the ground
(short aluminum legs) maybe a little higher It stalled at 28mph.
Winter airspeed gauge and gps always seem to be right on the money.
As I was only 2nd year solo I always tried to wheel land basically
straight and level just like Kolb list members suggested. Good advice.
I kept practicing all last year and kept dropping to the runway at 2
or 3 ft. well above stall speed. Asked other real pilots what might be
up but no one seemed to get it. Every now and then I would accidentally
come in nose high and float on 3point like a pro. Also tried different
TO's and found that if I kept the tail wheel on the ground I'd be off in
less than 90'.
Much faster than before ... what a ball:) :) :)
Here's what I'm pretty sure of after multiple stalls and many more
TOL's and a lot less butt clenching. My Xtra has 2 stall speeds....
straight and level and nose high. I don't think its vg related as some
without them have experienced the same.
Comments?
Vic
Xtra 912ul
Flapperons VG's
Stock aluminum legs 800x6 tires
35hrs solo
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly CofG |
From: JC Gilpin <j.gilpin@bigpond.com>
JP,
>.......................
My main concern is that a high thrust line pusher is a real trap for aft
CofG. The prop thrust gives a nose-down moment, balancing the nose-up moment
of the aft CofG, making it all balance well, until the engine stops.........
and then that high thrust line suddenly becomes a high drag line, and then
both the high drag line and the aft CofG nose-up moments are summed.
>
This is not the case. The high thrust line is above the profile drag
center. If the engine and thrust line is trimmed for level flight at cruise
and the engine quits, at that instant there will be no difference in profile
drag and wing drag. If the thrust line is pointing down at cruise, it will
try to hold the tail up and once the engine dies the nose will want to come
up. etc. If you let the nose pitch up wing drag and profile drag will
increase. So in all cases the best thing to do when the engine quits is to
move the stick forward and maintain best glide speed. Profile drag will
remain almost constant but wing drag will be reduced.
>At the same time the elevator authority is much reduced by the lack of prop
blast.
>
Not so. Standard FireFly configuration puts very little if any air over the
horizontal tail surfaces. See:
http://jackbhart.com/firefly/firefly129.html
>Kolb flyers know this from experience, and some have learned the h-a-r-d
way..... I've had a couple of off-list emails strongly cautioning me to keep
power on right to touch-down, and I take that advice seriously. I'm used to
always pulling power at base leg and glide approach all the way to
touchdown, but certainly won't be doing that in the FireFly, at least in the
beginning.
>
There is no reason not to pull power at the base leg, just keep your pattern
tight and keep the air speed over 45 mphi or higher. One of the best things
you can do to prepare your self for an engine out is to practice higher and
higher pattern approaches, closing the throttle at the same point and
learning how to spill altitude and to touch down at the same spot on the
runway.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly CofG |
There is no reason not to pull power at the base leg, just keep your pattern
tight and keep the air speed over 45 mphi or higher. One of the best things
you can do to prepare your self for an engine out is to practice higher and
higher pattern approaches, closing the throttle at the same point and
learning how to spill altitude and to touch down at the same spot on the
runway.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jack H/Kolbers:
That was a good post.
However, you could saved a lot of typing by saying: "Fly the airplane."
It's pretty simple.
Most folks that have problems flying a Kolb don't fly the airplane and blame
it on the Kolb, i.e., Kolb quit and can't land without power.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly CofG |
Good points Jack....do not think I ever want to be in an airplane
that will not glide.. even 6 to 1 is better than 1 to 1....:-) Herb
At 01:55 PM 2/1/2012, you wrote:
>
>Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 20:58:08 +1000
>From: JC Gilpin <j.gilpin@bigpond.com>
>
>JP,
>
> >.......................
>My main concern is that a high thrust line pusher is a real trap for aft
>CofG. The prop thrust gives a nose-down moment, balancing the nose-up moment
>of the aft CofG, making it all balance well, until the engine stops.........
>and then that high thrust line suddenly becomes a high drag line, and then
>both the high drag line and the aft CofG nose-up moments are summed.
> >
>
>This is not the case. The high thrust line is above the profile drag
>center. If the engine and thrust line is trimmed for level flight at cruise
>and the engine quits, at that instant there will be no difference in profile
>drag and wing drag. If the thrust line is pointing down at cruise, it will
>try to hold the tail up and once the engine dies the nose will want to come
>up. etc. If you let the nose pitch up wing drag and profile drag will
>increase. So in all cases the best thing to do when the engine quits is to
>move the stick forward and maintain best glide speed. Profile drag will
>remain almost constant but wing drag will be reduced.
>
> >At the same time the elevator authority is much reduced by the lack of prop
>blast.
> >
>
>Not so. Standard FireFly configuration puts very little if any air over the
>horizontal tail surfaces. See:
>
>http://jackbhart.com/firefly/firefly129.html
>
> >Kolb flyers know this from experience, and some have learned the h-a-r-d
>way..... I've had a couple of off-list emails strongly cautioning me to keep
>power on right to touch-down, and I take that advice seriously. I'm used to
>always pulling power at base leg and glide approach all the way to
>touchdown, but certainly won't be doing that in the FireFly, at least in the
>beginning.
> >
>
>There is no reason not to pull power at the base leg, just keep your pattern
>tight and keep the air speed over 45 mphi or higher. One of the best things
>you can do to prepare your self for an engine out is to practice higher and
>higher pattern approaches, closing the throttle at the same point and
>learning how to spill altitude and to touch down at the same spot on the
>runway.
>
>Jack B. Hart FF004
>Winchester, IN
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Kolb quit revealed |
Here's what I'm pretty sure of after multiple stalls and many more TOL's
and a lot less butt clenching. My Xtra has 2 stall speeds.... straight and
level and nose high. I don't think its vg related as some without them have
experienced the same.
Comments?
Vic
With the same load and weather conditions and attitude, the Kolb should
stall at the same indicated airspeed no matter what altitude. Don't know
about others', but all the Kolbs and fixed wing aircraft I have flown have
performed the same at indicated stall.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 9
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| Subject: | VGs - Flight Report |
Kolb Friends -
Here's another data point to the on-going discussion (argument?) about
the relative benefit of installing Vortex Generators on our Kolbs. I
installed JG's "StolSpeed" clear polycarbonate VGs on my Mark-3 last
November, and here are my findings.
I have flown 8 times with them so far, and I collected flight data for a
variety of power settings - everything from minimum power for level
flight to WOT.
BOTTOM LINE: For my Kolb, the VGs allow me to fly at lower power
settings than before, without sinking.
At speeds just above stall, the airplane feels noticeably more solid
(smooth). Previously, I could detect the air separating from the top of
the wing by these two effects: I could feel the airplane shudder as the
airflow would separate & reattach in rapid succession, and I could hear
the prop cavitate (rum-rum) as the separated (and highly turbulent) flow
was coming off the wing and into the prop. Now, it flies solidly, right
up to the stall. No shaking or rum-rum. And, when the stall finally
happens, it's still the signature Kolb gentle stall, where the nose just
drops straight ahead. My power-off stall (now about 38 mph) decreased
by 5 mph.
I often fly at low power settings - within ten mph of the stall speed.
This is because most of my flying is local sightseeing, exploring the
mountains and valleys around my area of central New Mexico. No need to
go anywhere fast, so might as well burn as little fuel per hour as
possible. And so, I was especially interested in seeing how the VGs
affected my minimum level flight power settings.
Previously, when flying solo, the lowest I could throttle my 912 back to
and still maintain level flight was 4000 rpm (48 mph IAS). Now with
VGs, I can go as low as 3800 rpm (40 mph) and still fly level with no
sink. For local flying, I usually putter around at 7500 feet MSL at
4400 rpm, get 55 mph IAS (63 mph TAS at this altitude), and burn about
3.2 gph.
Cruise speeds and top speed are unchanged.
My takeoff and landing distances are about the same - testament that
Homer optimized the design of his airfoil for STOL performance from the
beginning.
I also put VGs on the underside of my horizontal stabilizer, in pairs,
about 4 inches ahead of the elevator hinge line. 10 per side. This
supposedly increases elevator effectiveness at low speeds by minimizing
flow separation when flying near max elevator "up" deflection. My
landings appear to have improved a little bit - am more consistently
making smooth landings - because I seem to have a little more elevator
authority at the slow landing speed. (But maybe I was just being sloppy
previously - time will tell.)
I installed the VGs per the standard advice we've seen offered so often
on this List - about ten percent chord aft of the leading edge (approx
six inches). I placed two VGs per valley, evenly spaced between the
ribs. Stuck them on with double-sided carpet tape. The tape was thin,
and very sticky. No way these will come off unless I intentionally pull
them off. And if I do, it's an easy job, as the sticky tape just rolls
up into a little rubber ball when you rub it back and forth with your
finger.
Overall, I'm happy with the VGs - I think I'll leave 'em on! My thanks
to John Gilpin for providing the StolSpeed VGs, and Richard Pike for his
detailed discussion on his website of his experimentation with optimal
placement of VGs on Kolbs.
So ... anybody here think we can talk ol' John Hauck into trying these
one day? (hehehe)
Dennis Kirby
Mark-3, 912ul, "Magic Bike"
Sandia Park, NM
Message 10
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| Subject: | VGs - Flight Report |
So anybody here think we can talk ol John Hauck into trying these one
day? (hehehe)
Dennis Kirby
Dennis K/Gang:
Since my name was mentioned I will make one comment.
Your numbers are impressive. Undoubtedly, the VG's have made it a better
airplane and you a better pilot.
However, I have a MKIII that is probably well over 100 lbs heavier than your
MKIII. It does what your MKIII does, only better without VG's. Wonder why?
Chubby Miss P'fer (don't tell her I said that) flies at 3,000 rpm without
falling out of the sky. In ground effect she breaks as the ASI needle is
coming through 30 mph. I have complete control of my MKIII no matter how
she is configured or at whatever flying speed above stall, which is between
30 and 35 mph with full flaps depending on how she is loaded, altitude,
temp, etc.
There were a couple occasions during the life of Miss P'fer that she decided
not to fly. At those times it would have taken more than VG's and an act of
God to keep her in the air. A flying crane might have helped.
In Sep 1993, powered with a 582 I lost the engine coming out of a confined
area with full flaps low airspeed and about 30 or 40 above the ground.
Pilot error. Bent airplane.
May 2009, coming out of Grants, NM, (your neck of the woods) a combination
of high altitude, high density altitude, cross wind, and dust devils, put me
into a position of coming back down instead of going up from about 30 or so
feet. I kept full power, crashed into the sand on the left side of the
runway, bounced back up and flew out of it in ground effect, being very
gentle on the controls, nursed it through ground effect to altitude. Two
other MKIII's took off ahead of me experiencing the same problems, but they
were lucky enough to stay in the air.
Come to think of it, I had two other take off problems at high altitude.
One at Leadville, CO, 9,927 feet ASL, MKIII max gross. Forgot where I was
and tried to do a sea level take off. Never got out of ground effect.
Double Eagle, Albuquerque, NM, two up, 250 lb passenger. Screwed up and
topped off the fuel tank, 25 gal/150 lbs, before I realized my nephew wanted
to fly. Took off, flew through ground effect and right back down to the run
way. After I got it back together again, took a deep breath, nursed the
little MKIII off the tarmac, got a lot of airspeed in ground effect and
eventually climbed to 10,000+ near the summit of Sandia Mountain. Dennis K
is very familiar with this mountain.
All the above situations were way beyond VG salvation. Would they have
helped? Maybe. I don't really know. Would have helped had the pilot had
his head out of his hind end though.
Had a fly off with a Kolb List member a few years ago at the Kolb
Homecoming. He had VGs. I don't. My MKIII is much heavier than his. How
much I do not know. I might add I forgot to unload my MKIII. It had a
dozen (case) of MRE rations, tool bag, other assorted gear on board and
about 100 lbs of fuel. At low altitude we flew side by side at slowest
possible speed. I'll call it a draw although my competitor called it off
because he was afraid I would fly into him. He wasn't supposed to see me
because I was flying his right wing.
No. I am not ready for VGs. I have flown a FS with VGs and saw some
improvement in landing just prior to touch down. Seemed to soften things up
a bit. Other than that, I personally did not see enough improvement to buy
and attach them to my wings or horizontal stabs.
I have nothing against VGs. Simply do not need them on my MKIII.
Well...that was more than a comment. Sorry about that.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: VGs - Flight Report |
John Hauck wrote:
>
>
> Had a fly off with a Kolb List member a few years ago at the Kolb
> Homecoming. He had VGs. I don't. My MKIII is much heavier than his. How much
I do not know. I might add I forgot to unload my MKIII. It had a dozen (case)
of MRE rations, tool bag, other assorted gear on board and about 100 lbs
of fuel. At low altitude we flew side by side at slowest possible speed. I'll
call it a draw although my competitor called it off because he was afraid I
would fly into him. He wasn't supposed to see me because I was flying his right
wing.
>
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
Let me hijack the thread for a minute and talk about something other than VG's.
That was a classic example of going flying when you shouldn't.
I failed to discuss in detail with John ahead of time how we were going to do things.
Then the airplane refused to start because of a low battery. Finally got
it started but by then I was annoyed at myself - it really stinks to come to
the Kolb Fly-In and then have your airplane not start. Kind of like going to
the Prom and your date stands you up...
Taxied out and discovered that the radio was not working. I had made up a set of
ear buds to replace the headset jacks, and while getting in and out of the airplane
had somehow managed to disable the jack box that they plugged into. So
I taxied out and discovered I had no radio, and by this time I am somewhat flustered.
Did 2 or 3 fly-bys (don't remember exactly how many) and since we had not coordinated
ahead of time exactly how we were going to do it, most of the time I couldn't
see John. Meanwhile I am flying my airplane behind the power curve, knowing
that I am in close proximity to another airplane. I am assuming that probably
he is watching me, but since we didn't coordinate ahead of time, I am also
aware that this whole operation flies in the face of everything we get taught
about formation flying.
Ever been flying while you were overwhelmed by the idea that you are doing something
really dumb? That was me.
Moral to the story: never go flying because of a perceived need to prove anything
to anybody. Never go flying if the airplane is not functioning the way it ought
to be functioning, especially since we were in a situation where a radio
was vital to coordinate. Yeah, all the systems that made it airworthy were functioning,
but the mission-specific systems were not, so it should have been scrubbed.
Bottom line - failed to plan & coordinate properly, failed to require all the necessary
systems to function properly, failed to fly worth a poot because of anxiety
over the previous two failures. Not making excuses, perhaps a rematch would
turn out the same way.
But don't ever fly because you think you need to. That's really stupid and that
was definitely my day for stupid.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
richard (at) bcchapel(dot)org
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:1
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=365421#365421
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly CofG |
Our Kolbs have a tremendous capability to fly in and out of very short
fields. The very steep approach angle with very little flair time is
necessary to be able to complete incredibly short landings. It's what they
were designed for. Pilots new to Kolbs are advised to maintain power on
approach right down to the landing flair. Later after a few landings it is
good to start gradually exploring the planes capability but go slowly. My
GA experience made my transition to my Kolb more difficult. John is right
it is just a simple matter of maintaining flying speed. It really is that
simple. The problem is pilots new to Kolbs aren't prepared for the visual
impact of seeing the high ground closure rate up so close and personal. The
natural reaction is to flare way too high and without power, flying speed
is lost very quickly and that isn't good. So we have a very well designed
airplane, we just need to learn how to fly them properly to be able to use
all their capabilities. In summery there is no such thing as Kolb quit
there is only pilot quit.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 3:11 PM, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
> There is no reason not to pull power at the base leg, just keep your
> pattern
> tight and keep the air speed over 45 mphi or higher. One of the best
> things
> you can do to prepare your self for an engine out is to practice higher and
> higher pattern approaches, closing the throttle at the same point and
> learning how to spill altitude and to touch down at the same spot on the
> runway.
>
> Jack B. Hart FF004
>
>
> Jack H/Kolbers:
>
> That was a good post.
>
> However, you could saved a lot of typing by saying: "Fly the airplane."
> It's pretty simple.
>
> Most folks that have problems flying a Kolb don't fly the airplane and
> blame
> it on the Kolb, i.e., Kolb quit and can't land without power.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly CofG |
John and Jack and Kolbers , I agree that is no reason to not pull the power
at base i was in the habit of pulling power as soon as I turned downwind b
ut that was from flying Gliders thats why I believe that the best training
one can get for any light powered aircraft is in a Glider- , there you le
arn to fly the aicraft you learn to be infinitely variable as things change
what you do changes you got to land the aircraft the first time everytime,
there are no gorounds, there--is no blaming the aircraft because the t
raining gliders 2-33 or the equal have been landed successfully in every co
ndition , its all you, just fly the aircraft . just my 2 cents Chris=0A=0A
=0AChris Davis KXP 503 492 hrs Glider Pilot Disabled from crash building Fi
refly=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: John Hauck <jhauck@e
lmore.rr.com>=0ATo: kolb-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Wednesday, February 1,
2012 3:11 PM=0ASubject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: FireFly CofG=0A=0A--> Kolb-List
message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>=0A=0A=0A=0AThere is
no reason not to pull power at the base leg, just keep your pattern=0Atigh
t and keep the air speed over 45 mphi or higher.- One of the best things
=0Ayou can do to prepare your self for an engine out is to practice higher
and=0Ahigher pattern approaches, closing the throttle at the same point and
=0Alearning how to spill altitude and to touch down at the same spot on the
=0Arunway.=0A=0AJack B. Hart FF004=0A=0A=0A=0AJack H/Kolbers:=0A=0AThat was
a good post.=0A=0AHowever, you could saved a lot of typing by saying:- "
Fly the airplane."=0AIt's pretty simple.=0A=0AMost folks that have problems
flying a Kolb don't fly the airplane and blame=0Ait on the Kolb, i.e., Kol
b quit and can't land without power.=0A=0Ajohn h=0AmkIII=0ATitus, Alabama
===============
Message 14
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| Subject: | Official Kolb-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the Kolb-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The
complete Kolb-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Kolb-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
[ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as
Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ]
This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm
************************************************************
******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS *******
************************************************************
PLEASE READ. This document contains Kolb-List policies and information
for new and old subscribers. Understanding the Kolb-List policies will
minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the Kolb-List
running smoothly for all of us.
******************************************
*** Quick Start Guide to List Features ***
******************************************
There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each
one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator
you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this
List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
****************************************
*** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe ***
****************************************
Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and
select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You
may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of
your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the
complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information.
The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is:
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption
process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request
was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed.
You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request.
The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post
until you receive the second conformation email message.
*****************************
*** How to Post a Message ***
*****************************
Send an email message to:
kolb-list@matronics.com
Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed
to the List.
*****************************************************
*** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post ***
*****************************************************
When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message
is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the
email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor.
If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it
is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that
gets posted to the Lists.
Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important
with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook
or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be
functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM
test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List:
smith@machine.domain.com
smith@domain.com
Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure
your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to
the List.
**************************************
*** Enclosure Support on the Lists ***
**************************************
Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets
is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these
are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the
content of enclosures.
These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics
Lists:
1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists.
2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists.
3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site.
4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives.
5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature.
6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed:
bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls
All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to
sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from
a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk.
7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting
to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down
the process of posting the message !!
Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules
could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists.
1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files
you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there
are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post
30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these
folks and the rest of us, for that matter.
2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000
pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just
unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture
down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the
file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less.
Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows
you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically
scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it!
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx
Look for the link "Image Resizer"
3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not
post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother.
And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even
questionable. !!
4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members
subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting
to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and
BE COURTEOUS!
Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where
you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server
for long time viewing and availability.
*******************
*** Digest Mode ***
*******************
Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started.
This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended
to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:"
and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting
of a line of underscores.
Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be
combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list.
To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form
described above, and just select the Digest version of the List.
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions
of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable.
Now some caveats:
* Messages sent to "kolb-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard
email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the
digest List.
* If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you
will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of
the day.
* If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the
normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change
the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please
*do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*.
****************************
*** List Digest Browser ***
****************************
An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text
or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to
the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found
at the following location:
http://www.matronics.com/digest
*****************************************
*** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag ***
*****************************************
At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very
small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive
it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the
message:
do not archive
Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List
email distribution as normal.
**********************************************
***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes *****
**********************************************
Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced
email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly
removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving
messages from the Kolb-List, go to the following Web page, and look
for your email address and a possible reason for your removal.
The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that
automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that
caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox
full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the
Lists you will find record of it at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed
If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel
free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice.
*******************************
*** List Member Information ***
*******************************
If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and
paper mail address in the following format:
smith@somehost.com
Joe Smith
123 Airport Lane
Tower, CA 91234-1234
098-765-1234 w
123-456-7890 h
Please forward this information to the following email address:
requests@matronics.com
I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when
there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT
be used for any other commercial purpose.
****************************************
*** Realtime Web Email List Browsing ***
****************************************
Recent messages posted to the Kolb-List are also made available on
the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are
available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject,
Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are
updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message
or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon).
You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List
Browser Interface in view-mode.
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/kolb-list
*******************************************
*** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface ***
*******************************************
A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all Kolb-List content.
content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email
distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the
List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the
respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to
the web Forums.
You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login.
If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you
will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few
minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the
main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also
enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to
Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the
Email Distribution of the List, however.
The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL:
http://forums.matronics.com
*********************************
*** Matronics Email List Wiki ***
*********************************
In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed
information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at:
http://wiki.matronics.com
The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information
for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page
where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki
permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately.
While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be
comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any
images and email it to:
wiki-support@matronics.com
One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct
a Wiki page for you.
Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the
Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that
post and convert it into a Wiki page.
*********************
*** List Archives ***
*********************
A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Kolb-List is
available on line. The archive file information is available via the
Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below:
* Kolb-List.FAQ
- Latest version of the Kolb-List Frequently Asked Question
page (this document).
* Kolb-Archive.digest.complete
- Complete file with most of the email header info removed and
page breaks inserted between messages.
* Kolb-Archive.digest.vol-??
- Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that
can more easily handled.
* Kolb-Archive.digest.complete.zip
- Same as the Kolb-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
* Kolb-Archive.digest.complete.Z
- Same as the Kolb-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
******************************************
*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
******************************************
All messages posted to the Kolb-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Kolb
*****************************************
**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
*****************************************
You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
**************************
*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
**********************************
*** List Support Contributions ***
**********************************
The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members.
You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages
associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November
I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
are comfortable.
I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated
by companies that are themselves List members.
Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server
system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many
many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the
variety of services found here.
Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains
value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude.
Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just
subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in.
The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are
a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and
sending a personal check.
If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
support its continued operation?
http://www.matronics.com/contributions
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Kolb-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Kolb-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Kolb-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Kolb-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Kolb-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
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|
| Subject: | Official Kolb-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the Kolb-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
Kolb-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Kolb-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Kolb-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Kolb-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Kolb-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Kolb-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Kolb-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
Other Matronics Email List Services
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-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
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