Kolb-List Digest Archive

Thu 02/02/12


Total Messages Posted: 23



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 01:36 AM - Re: FireFly CofG (JC Gilpin)
     2. 04:18 AM - Re: Re: FireFly CofG (John Hauck)
     3. 07:01 AM - Re: Kolb quit revealed (vic)
     4. 08:09 AM - Re: Kolb quit revealed (Richard Girard)
     5. 08:26 AM - Re: Re: FireFly CofG (Richard Girard)
     6. 08:31 AM - Fw: Altitude/speed control when landing (David Kulp)
     7. 09:00 AM - Re: VGs - Flight Report (Kirby, Dennis Civ USAF AFMC AFNWC/ENS)
     8. 09:05 AM - no liabilety sale (Malcolm Brubaker)
     9. 10:36 AM - vg comment (Mike Hale)
    10. 10:56 AM - Re: Re: FireFly CofG (Gary Aman)
    11. 01:01 PM - Re: Re: FireFly CofG (Richard Girard)
    12. 01:09 PM - Re: Kolb quit revealed (vic)
    13. 01:12 PM - Re: Re: VGs - Flight Report (vic)
    14. 01:19 PM - Re: Re: FireFly CofG (Gary Aman)
    15. 01:32 PM - Re: Kolb quit revealed (Richard Girard)
    16. 02:27 PM - Re: Kolb quit revealed (vic)
    17. 03:35 PM - Re: vg comment (Richard Pike)
    18. 05:02 PM - Re: Kolb quit revealed (Beauford)
    19. 06:54 PM - Re: Re: FireFly CofG (John Hauck)
    20. 07:07 PM - Re: Re: FireFly CofG (John Hauck)
    21. 07:12 PM - Re: Re: FireFly CofG (John Hauck)
    22. 07:22 PM - Re: Kolb quit revealed (John Hauck)
    23. 07:28 PM - Re: Re: VGs - Flight Report (Larry Cottrell)
 
 
 


Message 1


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 01:36:56 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: FireFly CofG
    From: JC Gilpin <j.gilpin@bigpond.com>
    OK, that all sounds just fine. I'm used to diving at the ground on final approach, with plenty of airspeed right to a round-out just in time, then holding off one foot above the ground until airspeed decays such that it absolutely can't fly any more. That's just the way I flew my Spectrum Beaver for 1000 hrs. Somehow I'd got the impression that the Kolb was different, but now I'm really looking forward to this. Thanks for all the input. JG


    Message 2


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 04:18:38 AM PST US
    From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: FireFly CofG
    Somehow I'd got the impression that the Kolb was different, but now I'm really looking forward to this. JG The Fire Fly is a scaled down Sling Shot. With a 40 hp engine it is a little hot rod, very agile, quick roll rate. It does well in rough air. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama


    Message 3


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 07:01:39 AM PST US
    From: "vic" <vicsv@myfairpoint.net>
    Subject: Re: Kolb quit revealed
    Your right JohnStalls the same speed at a given attitude and a different at another. "With the same load and weather conditions and attitude," john hmkIIITitus, Alabama


    Message 4


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 08:09:44 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Kolb quit revealed
    From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
    I'm sure John would agree with me on this one. The supposed "Kolb Quit" is an approach stall (power off) while *in ground effect*. The power off stalling characteristic of a Kolb Mk III, properly built, i.e. with a center section and either good coverings on the upper rear pod or the engine bay frame covered, is for some buffeting and a gentle break. It is the ground effect part of the equation that makes the Quit so damaging to landing gear. I would be willing to bet a quarter that stalls in ground effect occur at 3 to 5 mph lower airspeed than they do out of ground effect. Since lift is calculated from the dynamic pressure equation (1/2 rho * Vsquared, where rho is the mass density of air and V is speed) That small reduction in air speed has a dramatic effect on the amount of lift the wing is producing and when it goes away, whammo ( I have the limp noodle aluminum landing gear legs to prove the whammo part :-} ). End of where John and I agree, I think. Dennis, one more thing you might consider doing to further improve the slow flight characteristics of your Mk III is to seal the gap between the horizontal stabilizers and the boom tube. You will find two improvements if you do. 1) Rudder effectiveness is improved to the point that you can pick up a falling wing while near stall speed and 2) Because of 1) it is possible to hold the airplane in a wings level stall as long as you want while descending in a flat attitude at a vertical speed of 1200 to 1500 fpm down. Rick Girard On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 8:55 AM, vic <vicsv@myfairpoint.net> wrote: > ** > > Your right John > > Stalls the same speed at a given attitude and a different at another. > > > "With the same load and weather conditions and *attitude*," > > john h****** > > mkIII**** > > Titus, Alabama**** > > * > > * > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx


    Message 5


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 08:26:23 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: FireFly CofG
    From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
    Let's define power here. My "holding power" (3000 rpm) may not be yours. I land Kolbs the same way I landed Cessna 182s, hold a little power right down to the deck, pull it off and let it settle. I do very little in the way of flaring in the Mk III because it isn't set up for a full stall landing. It "wheels in on three" beautifully, though, even at 1220 lb. Ken Holle can testify to that since we did it in his airplane last Sunday evening. I still think most of the landing problems pilots new to Kolbs have is the sight picture on landing. Depending on model the pilots eyes are anywhere from 12 to 24 inches closer to the runway in a Kolb. If one uses the visual cues used previously, you land that much too high above the runway. Rick Girard On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 6:14 AM, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote: > ** ** > > * *Somehow I'd got the impression that the Kolb was different, but now > I'm really looking forward to this. **** > > JG**** > > * * > > * * > > * * > > The Fire Fly is a scaled down Sling Shot. With a 40 hp engine it is a little hot rod, very agile, quick roll rate. It does well in rough air.**** > > ** ** > > john h**** > > mkIII**** > > Titus, Alabama**** > > * * > > * > > > * > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx


    Message 6


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 08:31:07 AM PST US
    From: David Kulp <undoctor@ptd.net>
    Subject: Fwd: Altitude/speed control when landing
    My first "real" ultralight was an Ultrastar, then I bought the FlagFly. When I bought the FlagFly a number of years had passed since I last flew, plus I only ever had 3 hours of actual training, which was in a T-craft, the balance was self-taught, so I took 10 hours of instruction at Queen City Airport. Adam, my instructor, who looked a bit like SNL's Andy Samberg, taught me that when you're in the pattern you reverse the normal RPM's for airspeed and elevators for altitude mode, and use the yoke/elevators to set your speed and adjust the RPMs to determine your altitude and consequently your touch down point. Is this common among us? What is your method? I'll attach a 2.5 MB video from the cockpit of a jet landing on an aircraft carrier that shows the pilot doing that. * (This post was rejected because the attachment, a wmv, file is not supported by the list, in their fight to halt the spread of viruses, etc. It's a really neat video and I scanned it with 3 different scans, anti-malware, anti-spam and anti-virus, and it's clean. So if you'd like to see it, email me directly and I'll send it to you directly.)* One time we were in the pattern and there was a plane landing in front of us. After he landed he was messing around on the runway so Adam had me maintain my altitude, not knowing if we'd be able to land or have to go around till the other plane was clear. We turned final very high just as the other plane cleared, so Adam told me to give it full flaps and see if I could land it. That was the first time I landed a GA with full flaps and as we were diving toward the runway I laughed and said, "Now THIS is what I'm used to after flying an Ultrastar." I felt very comfortable dropping it in and flared just fine, thanks to my Kolb experience! Dave Kulp Bethlehem, PA FireFly 11DMK On 2/1/2012 9:28 PM, Rick Neilsen wrote: > Our Kolbs have a tremendous capability to fly in and out of very short > fields. The very steep approach angle with very little flair time is > necessary to be able to complete incredibly short landings. It's what > they were designed for. Pilots new to Kolbs are advised to maintain > power on approach right down to the landing flair. Later after a few > landings it is good to start gradually exploring the planes capability > but go slowly. My GA experience made my transition to my Kolb more > difficult. John is right it is just a simple matter of maintaining > flying speed. It really is that simple. The problem is pilots new to > Kolbs aren't prepared for the visual impact of seeing the high ground > closure rate up so close and personal. The natural reaction is to > flare way too high and without power, flying speed is lost very > quickly and that isn't good. So we have a very well designed airplane, > we just need to learn how to fly them properly to be able to use all > their capabilities. In summery there is no such thing as Kolb quit > there is only pilot quit. > > Rick Neilsen > Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC **


    Message 7


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 09:00:06 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: VGs - Flight Report
    From: "Kirby, Dennis Civ USAF AFMC AFNWC/ENS" <Dennis.Kirby@kirtland.af.mil>
    John Hauck wrote: << Chubby Miss P'fer (don't tell her I said that) flies at 3,000 rpm without falling out of the sky. >> ============== ??!! 3000 RPM? You sure that's not a typo, and do you really mean 4000? I wonder if my Mark-3 performance numbers are a result of the high elevations I fly at. My home airfield is 6500 feet MSL. So the majority of my flying is at 7000 feet and higher. These are the altitudes my flight report numbers came from - somewhere between 7000 and 8000 feet. The lowest my Kolb has ever been was when I landed at Mid Valley airport in Los Lunas, New Mexico (elev 4830'). When I departed that airport, I could tell my Mark-3 had better climbout performance that what I was used to. I believe that all airplanes are able to fly at lower power settings at lower altitudes, due to the "thicker" (more dense) air. (Another way of saying the same thing is, airplanes perform better on the same power settings at lower elevations.) One of my goals is to fly my Kolb to the coast, and experience flying at near sea-level. I'll probably be amazed at the apparent performance improvement! Dennis Kirby New Mexico do not archive


    Message 8


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 09:05:43 AM PST US
    From: Malcolm Brubaker <brubakermal@yahoo.com>
    Subject: no liabilety sale
    I have a- person in the country if chilly thats wants me to fill a contan er with a firefly and kitfox lite this a perfict chance to sell a firefly w ith no liabilety.I will pay cash for your plane up frunt-no N# required =0Aplease contact me off list-- mal=0A=0AMalcolm & Jeanne Brubaker =0AM ichigan Sport Pilot Repair =0ALSRM-A, PPC, WS=0AGreat Sails - Sailmaker =0A for Ultralight & Light Sport=0A(989)513-3022=0A =0A=0A_____________________ ___________=0A From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>=0ATo: kolb-list@m atronics.com =0ASent: Thursday, February 2, 2012 11:04 AM=0ASubject: Re: Ko lb-List: Kolb quit revealed=0A =0A=0AI'm sure John would agree with me on this one.=0AThe supposed "Kolb Quit" is an approach stall (power off) while in ground effect. The power off stalling characteristic of a Kolb Mk III, properly built, i.e. with a center section and either good coverings on the upper rear pod or the engine bay frame covered, is for some buffeting and a gentle break. It is the ground effect part of the equation that makes the Quit so damaging to landing gear. I would be willing to bet a quarter that stalls in ground effect occur at 3 to 5 mph lower airspeed than they do ou t of ground effect. Since lift is calculated from the dynamic pressure equa tion (1/2 rho * Vsquared, where rho is the mass density of air and V is spe ed) That small reduction in air speed has a dramatic effect on the amount o f lift the wing is producing and when it goes away, whammo ( I have the lim p noodle aluminum landing gear legs to prove the whammo part :-} ). End of where John and I agree, I think. =0ADennis, one more thing you might consid er doing to further improve the slow flight characteristics of your Mk III is to seal the gap between the horizontal stabilizers and the boom tube. Yo u will find two improvements if you do. 1) Rudder effectiveness is improved to the point that you can pick up a falling wing while near stall speed an d 2) Because of 1) it is possible to hold the airplane in a wings level sta ll as long as you want while descending in a flat attitude at a vertical sp eed of 1200 to 1500 fpm down. =0A=0ARick Girard=0A=0A=0AOn Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 8:55 AM, vic <vicsv@myfairpoint.net> wrote:=0A=0A =0A>Your right John =0A>Stalls the same speed at a given attitude and a different at another. =0A>-=0A>"With the same load and weather conditions and attitude,"- =0A>john h =0A>mkIII=0A>Titus, Alabama =0A>get="_blank">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List=0Atp://forums.matronics.com=0A_blank">http://w ww.matronics.com/contribution =0A=0A=0A-- =0A=0AZulu Delta=0AMk IIIC=0AThan ks, Homer GBYM=0A=0AIt isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in =====


    Message 9


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 10:36:12 AM PST US
    Subject: vg comment
    From: Mike Hale <halesbeer@gmail.com>
    I say, if your kolb has no bad habits you are fine, however, I purchased a used Firestar 2 that had a few quirks. The elevator would go completly away 5mph above stall, 44mph ias, just a stick in a bowl of mush. Also had a bad habit of dropping a wing at stall and not always the same one either. The previous owner said 50 is nifty and would keep me out of trouble and that was true. I installed Mr Harts VG's at 9" back in the valleys and some under the tail. Now I have a brand new pussycat of a Kolb. I would let my wife fly this sweet bird without a qualm, but so far she has declined. Stalls at 40mph with no wing drop and the alierions alone will hold them level through the stall. The elevator is solid through out the stall. I am very pleased, slow flight is no work at all. Mike


    Message 10


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 10:56:06 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: FireFly CofG
    From: Gary Aman <zeprep251@aol.com>
    Listers' 99% of my MK3 landings,short spring steel gear legs,are full stall 3 point events.Approach with engine at idle,Jabiru 2200a 900rpm static idle,and w/v g's.Only with stiff cross winds do I wheel land it or use some power .It's just like any other tail wheel aircraft. G.Aman -----Original Message----- From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com> Sent: Thu, Feb 2, 2012 11:26 am Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: FireFly CofG Let's define power here. My "holding power" (3000 rpm) may not be yours. I land Kolbs the same way I landed Cessna 182s, hold a little power right dow n to the deck, pull it off and let it settle. I do very little in the way o f flaring in the Mk III because it isn't set up for a full stall landing. I t "wheels in on three" beautifully, though, even at 1220 lb. Ken Holle can testify to that since we did it in his airplane last Sunday evening. I still think most of the landing problems pilots new to Kolbs have is the sight picture on landing. Depending on model the pilots eyes are anywhere f rom 12 to 24 inches closer to the runway in a Kolb. If one uses the visual cues used previously, you land that much too high above the runway. Rick Girard On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 6:14 AM, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote: Somehow I'd got the impression that the Kolb was different, but now I'm re ally looking forward to this. JG The Fire Fly is a scaled down Sling Shot. With a 40 hp engine it is a litt le hot rod, very agile, quick roll rate. It does well in rough air. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx


    Message 11


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 01:01:17 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: FireFly CofG
    From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
    Gary, Ken's Mk III has the wings set at 2.8 degrees relative to the engine mount and has the long steel tube gear. I tried a full stall landing, she landed tail wheel first. Hence I wheel her on three. Rick On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 12:51 PM, Gary Aman <zeprep251@aol.com> wrote: > Listers' > 99% of my MK3 landings,short spring steel gear legs,are full stall 3 point > events.Approach with engine at idle,Jabiru 2200a 900rpm static idle,and > w/vg's.Only with stiff cross winds do I wheel land it or use some power > .It's just like any other tail wheel aircraft. > G.Aman > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com> > To: kolb-list <kolb-list@matronics.com> > Sent: Thu, Feb 2, 2012 11:26 am > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: FireFly CofG > > Let's define power here. My "holding power" (3000 rpm) may not be yours. > I land Kolbs the same way I landed Cessna 182s, hold a little power right > down to the deck, pull it off and let it settle. I do very little in the > way of flaring in the Mk III because it isn't set up for a full stall > landing. It "wheels in on three" beautifully, though, even at 1220 lb. Ken > Holle can testify to that since we did it in his airplane last Sunday > evening. > I still think most of the landing problems pilots new to Kolbs have is the > sight picture on landing. Depending on model the pilots eyes are anywhere > from 12 to 24 inches closer to the runway in a Kolb. If one uses the visual > cues used previously, you land that much too high above the runway. > > Rick Girard > > On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 6:14 AM, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote: > >> ** ** >> * *Somehow I'd got the impression that the Kolb was different, but now >> I'm really looking forward to this. **** >> JG**** >> >> * * >> >> * * >> >> * * >> >> The Fire Fly is a scaled down Sling Shot. With a 40 hp engine it is a little hot rod, very agile, quick roll rate. It does well in rough air.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> john h**** >> >> mkIII**** >> >> Titus, Alabama**** >> >> * * >> >> * >> >> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List >> >> >> tp://forums.matronics.com >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> * >> >> > > > -- > Zulu Delta > Mk IIIC > Thanks, Homer GBYM > > It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be > unhappy. > - Groucho Marx > > > * > > tor?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > bution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > * > > * > > * > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx


    Message 12


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 01:09:19 PM PST US
    From: "vic" <vicsv@myfairpoint.net>
    Subject: Re: Kolb quit revealed
    I explained an anomaly about my Kolb that supports the mythic Kolb Quit ie. stall. Lets pretend that I didn't do my stall testing at 5ft of altitude. That I know what ground effect is and that I wasn't flying 3 to 5 mph slower than my normal indicated stall and then complaining because it stalled. I did not bend my gear legs. So before you blame my testing on poor pilotage maybe you should all hop in your own Kolbs and do some tests of your own. Lets also be aware that although I am a low timer I can be as big a know it all and blow hard as anyone on this list :):):). ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Girard To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 11:04 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb quit revealed I'm sure John would agree with me on this one. The supposed "Kolb Quit" is an approach stall (power off) while in ground effect. The power off stalling characteristic of a Kolb Mk III, properly built, i.e. with a center section and either good coverings on the upper rear pod or the engine bay frame covered, is for some buffeting and a gentle break. It is the ground effect part of the equation that makes the Quit so damaging to landing gear. I would be willing to bet a quarter that stalls in ground effect occur at 3 to 5 mph lower airspeed than they do out of ground effect. Since lift is calculated from the dynamic pressure equation (1/2 rho * Vsquared, where rho is the mass density of air and V is speed) That small reduction in air speed has a dramatic effect on the amount of lift the wing is producing and when it goes away, whammo ( I have the limp noodle aluminum landing gear legs to prove the whammo part :-} ). End of where John and I agree, I think. Dennis, one more thing you might consider doing to further improve the slow flight characteristics of your Mk III is to seal the gap between the horizontal stabilizers and the boom tube. You will find two improvements if you do. 1) Rudder effectiveness is improved to the point that you can pick up a falling wing while near stall speed and 2) Because of 1) it is possible to hold the airplane in a wings level stall as long as you want while descending in a flat attitude at a vertical speed of 1200 to 1500 fpm down. Rick Girard On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 8:55 AM, vic <vicsv@myfairpoint.net> wrote: Your right JohnStalls the same speed at a given attitude and a different at another. "With the same load and weather conditions and attitude," john hmkIIITitus, Alabama get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx


    Message 13


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 01:12:13 PM PST US
    From: "vic" <vicsv@myfairpoint.net>
    Subject: Re: VGs - Flight Report
    Mine also stays in the air at 3000 400ft alt though. Vic ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirby, Dennis Civ USAF AFMC AFNWC/ENS To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 11:56 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: VGs - Flight Report John Hauck wrote: << Chubby Miss P'fer (don't tell her I said that) flies at 3,000 rpm without falling out of the sky. >> ============== ??!! 3000 RPM? You sure that's not a typo, and do you really mean 4000? I wonder if my Mark-3 performance numbers are a result of the high elevations I fly at. My home airfield is 6500 feet MSL. So the majority of my flying is at 7000 feet and higher. These are the altitudes my flight report numbers came from - somewhere between 7000 and 8000 feet. The lowest my Kolb has ever been was when I landed at Mid Valley airport in Los Lunas, New Mexico (elev 4830'). When I departed that airport, I could tell my Mark-3 had better climbout performance that what I was used to. I believe that all airplanes are able to fly at lower power settings at lower altitudes, due to the "thicker" (more dense) air. (Another way of saying the same thing is, airplanes perform better on the same power settings at lower elevations.) One of my goals is to fly my Kolb to the coast, and experience flying at near sea-level. I'll probably be amazed at the apparent performance improvement! Dennis Kirby New Mexico do not archive


    Message 14


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 01:19:19 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: FireFly CofG
    From: Gary Aman <zeprep251@aol.com>
    Rick, What is the plans built angle for the old MK3? Gary -----Original Message----- From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com> Sent: Thu, Feb 2, 2012 4:01 pm Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: FireFly CofG Gary, Ken's Mk III has the wings set at 2.8 degrees relative to the engine mount and has the long steel tube gear. I tried a full stall landing, she landed tail wheel first. Hence I wheel her on three. Rick On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 12:51 PM, Gary Aman <zeprep251@aol.com> wrote: Listers' 99% of my MK3 landings,short spring steel gear legs,are full stall 3 point events.Approach with engine at idle,Jabiru 2200a 900rpm static idle,and w/v g's.Only with stiff cross winds do I wheel land it or use some power .It's just like any other tail wheel aircraft. G.Aman -----Original Message----- From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com> Sent: Thu, Feb 2, 2012 11:26 am Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: FireFly CofG Let's define power here. My "holding power" (3000 rpm) may not be yours. I land Kolbs the same way I landed Cessna 182s, hold a little power right dow n to the deck, pull it off and let it settle. I do very little in the way o f flaring in the Mk III because it isn't set up for a full stall landing. I t "wheels in on three" beautifully, though, even at 1220 lb. Ken Holle can testify to that since we did it in his airplane last Sunday evening. I still think most of the landing problems pilots new to Kolbs have is the sight picture on landing. Depending on model the pilots eyes are anywhere f rom 12 to 24 inches closer to the runway in a Kolb. If one uses the visual cues used previously, you land that much too high above the runway. Rick Girard On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 6:14 AM, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote: Somehow I'd got the impression that the Kolb was different, but now I'm re ally looking forward to this. JG The Fire Fly is a scaled down Sling Shot. With a 40 hp engine it is a litt le hot rod, very agile, quick roll rate. It does well in rough air. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx tor?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List tp://forums.matronics.com bution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx


    Message 15


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 01:32:39 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Kolb quit revealed
    From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
    Vic, Nobody criticized you, Piss off and grow a pair, okay. Rick On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 3:07 PM, vic <vicsv@myfairpoint.net> wrote: > ** > I explained an anomaly about my Kolb that supports the mythic Kolb Quit > ie. stall. > Lets pretend that I didn't do my stall testing at 5ft of altitude. That I > know what ground effect is and that I wasn't flying 3 to 5 mph slower than > my normal indicated stall and then complaining because it stalled. > I did not bend my gear legs. So before you blame my testing on poor > pilotage maybe you should all hop in your own Kolbs and do some tests of > your own. > Lets also be aware that although I am a low timer I can be as big a know > it all and blow hard as anyone on this list :):):). > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com> > *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Thursday, February 02, 2012 11:04 AM > *Subject:* Re: Kolb-List: Kolb quit revealed > > I'm sure John would agree with me on this one. > The supposed "Kolb Quit" is an approach stall (power off) while *in > ground effect*. The power off stalling characteristic of a Kolb Mk III, > properly built, i.e. with a center section and either good coverings on the > upper rear pod or the engine bay frame covered, is for some buffeting and a > gentle break. It is the ground effect part of the equation that makes the > Quit so damaging to landing gear. I would be willing to bet a quarter that > stalls in ground effect occur at 3 to 5 mph lower airspeed than they do out > of ground effect. Since lift is calculated from the dynamic pressure > equation (1/2 rho * Vsquared, where rho is the mass density of air and V is > speed) That small reduction in air speed has a dramatic effect on the > amount of lift the wing is producing and when it goes away, whammo ( I have > the limp noodle aluminum landing gear legs to prove the whammo part :-} ). > End of where John and I agree, I think. > Dennis, one more thing you might consider doing to further improve the > slow flight characteristics of your Mk III is to seal the gap between the > horizontal stabilizers and the boom tube. You will find two improvements if > you do. 1) Rudder effectiveness is improved to the point that you can pick > up a falling wing while near stall speed and 2) Because of 1) it is > possible to hold the airplane in a wings level stall as long as you want > while descending in a flat attitude at a vertical speed of 1200 to 1500 fpm > down. > > Rick Girard > > On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 8:55 AM, vic <vicsv@myfairpoint.net> wrote: > >> ** >> >> Your right John >> >> Stalls the same speed at a given attitude and a different at another. >> >> >> >> "With the same load and weather conditions and *attitude*," >> >> john h****** >> >> mkIII**** >> >> Titus, Alabama**** >> >> * >> >> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List >> tp://forums.matronics.com >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> * >> >> > > > -- > Zulu Delta > Mk IIIC > Thanks, Homer GBYM > > It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. > - Groucho Marx > > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c* > > * > > * > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx


    Message 16


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 02:27:39 PM PST US
    From: "vic" <vicsv@myfairpoint.net>
    Subject: Re: Kolb quit revealed
    Rick Thats very funny. Maybe someone should get a reduction :) Sure sounded like condescending dismissal to me. My bad. Vic


    Message 17


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 03:35:20 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: vg comment
    From: "Richard Pike" <richard@bcchapel.org>
    And if I were you, I would also gap seal the elevators to the horizontal stabs. Easy and can only help. -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) richard (at) bcchapel(dot)org Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=365493#365493


    Message 18


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 05:02:25 PM PST US
    From: "Beauford " <beauford173@verizon.net>
    Subject: Kolb quit revealed
    Gents: Perhaps it would let some of the heat out of this string if we re-named it "Pilot Quit". since Kolbs are not failing or "quitting" here. Kolbs, model for model, given the same conditions, do precisely the same thing every time. just like every other airplane on the planet. Seems to me that the only true variable in the bent-gear sweepstakes is the hand on the stick. Even a brand new monkey learns to keep his freshly-licked finger out of the electrical socket (or a few extra knots on the ASI) after the first big eye-watering epiphany with serious voltage or Mother Gravity. I humbly submit that Kolbs don't "quit". any more than a P-51 or a J-3 Cub quits. unless the Kolb driver first grants it permission to do so . Don't do that. Worth what ye paid fer it. Beauford FF-076 Brandon, FL Do Not Archive very much.. On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 3:07 PM, vic <vicsv@myfairpoint.net> wrote: I explained an anomaly about my Kolb that supports the mythic Kolb Quit ie. stall. ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Girard <mailto:aslsa.rng@gmail.com> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 11:04 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb quit revealed I'm sure John would agree with me on this one. The supposed "Kolb Quit" is an approach stall (power off) while in ground effect. =


    Message 19


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 06:54:38 PM PST US
    From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: FireFly CofG
    Listers' 99% of my MK3 landings,short spring steel gear legs,are full stall 3 point events.Approach with engine at idle,Jabiru 2200a 900rpm static idle,and w/vg's.Only with stiff cross winds do I wheel land it or use some power .It's just like any other tail wheel aircraft. G.Aman Me too, Gary. I also use full flaps (40 degrees), unless strong cross wind or at "real" airports with long runways. If I stall above the ground, the aircraft will drop, whether Kolb, Cessna, or Piper. john h mkIII Woodville, Florida


    Message 20


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 07:07:03 PM PST US
    From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: FireFly CofG
    Gary, Ken's Mk III has the wings set at 2.8 degrees relative to the engine mount and has the long steel tube gear. I tried a full stall landing, she landed tail wheel first. Hence I wheel her on three. Rick Don't pull the nose up so high. The US three points perfectly. My original FS did too, because it had 35.5" long main gear legs. My MKIII does the same because the main gear have been reconfigured and got the nose in the air. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama


    Message 21


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 07:12:17 PM PST US
    From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: FireFly CofG
    Rick, What is the plans built angle for the old MK3? Gary It is variable, depending on how the builder interpreted the rigging insturctions. I'll bet there aren't many rigged the same. Doesn't make a whole lot of difference. Most of us would never be able to tell. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama


    Message 22


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 07:22:12 PM PST US
    From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
    Subject: Kolb quit revealed
    I humbly submit that Kolbs dont quit any more than a P-51 or a J-3 Cub quits unless the Kolb driver first grants it permission to do so Dont do that. Worth what ye paid fer it Beauford You got that right, my friend. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama


    Message 23


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 07:28:13 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: VGs - Flight Report
    From: Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com>
    On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 9:56 AM, Kirby, Dennis Civ USAF AFMC AFNWC/ENS < Dennis.Kirby@kirtland.af.mil> wrote: Dennis, and the rest of you intending to install VG's. My Firestar II ( heavy) has two sets of VG's on the wings. The first ones were installed on the ribs ( 7 ) at 11 inches. That gave me a 6 MPH reduction in stall. There was some talk on the list that was too far back, so I installed another 7 at 10 inches in the false rib bay, and that gave me another 5 MPH hour reduction. Which means that at gross weight my plane stalls at 32 to 36 MPH. Roger Hankins has a KXP and he installed VG's at 10 inches and promptly took them off as it made the planes performance worse. On one of his trips over here to the Rock house we decided to try again and test them to see where his best position would be. Since he had already tried 10 or 11 inches we set the first try at 9 inches. He then took off and did several stalls, and different flights. It was better, but still not what he wanted. We next tried 7 inches and the results were very much better. Flight stability and stall was much improved. The primary findings to me are that each model may respond differently at the same settings, and each model or plane should be tested to obtain the best results. (If they were all built by the same company as is the spam cans are then each model would respond the same) Your results appear to be close to the norm for VG's, so I have no clue as to whether you could improve its performance by further testing. I have no explanation for why I seem to have obtained a larger reduction other than the fact that my final stall speed is in the ball park of where it should be. My original stall apparently was exceptionally high. The point that I am trying to make is that one size does not fit all. For instance Roger's KXP actually landed slower with out VG's than my Firestar did with them. Now it flies much better than it did before. I am glad that you are happy with the VG's. Give up on John, he is right in that Pfer does every thing he wants her to do and better than I can with mine with VG's. I doubt that skill has anything to do with it however, but like you I am convinced that VG's would make her even better. We will never know though. We are having the Rockhouse Fly-in the 23rd to the 30th of June this year. It is on the way to the Oregon coast, so come on out and join us. You can go to the coast afterward. Larry




    Other Matronics Email List Services

  • Post A New Message
  •   kolb-list@matronics.com
  • UN/SUBSCRIBE
  •   http://www.matronics.com/subscription
  • List FAQ
  •   http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm
  • Web Forum Interface To Lists
  •   http://forums.matronics.com
  • Matronics List Wiki
  •   http://wiki.matronics.com
  • 7-Day List Browse
  •   http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list
  • Browse Kolb-List Digests
  •   http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list
  • Browse Other Lists
  •   http://www.matronics.com/browse
  • Live Online Chat!
  •   http://www.matronics.com/chat
  • Archive Downloading
  •   http://www.matronics.com/archives
  • Photo Share
  •   http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
  • Other Email Lists
  •   http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
  • Contributions
  •   http://www.matronics.com/contribution

    These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.

    -- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --