Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:36 AM - Re: FireFly CofG (JC Gilpin)
2. 04:18 AM - Re: Re: FireFly CofG (John Hauck)
3. 07:01 AM - Re: Kolb quit revealed (vic)
4. 08:09 AM - Re: Kolb quit revealed (Richard Girard)
5. 08:26 AM - Re: Re: FireFly CofG (Richard Girard)
6. 08:31 AM - Fw: Altitude/speed control when landing (David Kulp)
7. 09:00 AM - Re: VGs - Flight Report (Kirby, Dennis Civ USAF AFMC AFNWC/ENS)
8. 09:05 AM - no liabilety sale (Malcolm Brubaker)
9. 10:36 AM - vg comment (Mike Hale)
10. 10:56 AM - Re: Re: FireFly CofG (Gary Aman)
11. 01:01 PM - Re: Re: FireFly CofG (Richard Girard)
12. 01:09 PM - Re: Kolb quit revealed (vic)
13. 01:12 PM - Re: Re: VGs - Flight Report (vic)
14. 01:19 PM - Re: Re: FireFly CofG (Gary Aman)
15. 01:32 PM - Re: Kolb quit revealed (Richard Girard)
16. 02:27 PM - Re: Kolb quit revealed (vic)
17. 03:35 PM - Re: vg comment (Richard Pike)
18. 05:02 PM - Re: Kolb quit revealed (Beauford)
19. 06:54 PM - Re: Re: FireFly CofG (John Hauck)
20. 07:07 PM - Re: Re: FireFly CofG (John Hauck)
21. 07:12 PM - Re: Re: FireFly CofG (John Hauck)
22. 07:22 PM - Re: Kolb quit revealed (John Hauck)
23. 07:28 PM - Re: Re: VGs - Flight Report (Larry Cottrell)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: FireFly CofG |
OK, that all sounds just fine. I'm used to diving at the ground on final
approach, with plenty of airspeed right to a round-out just in time, then
holding off one foot above the ground until airspeed decays such that it
absolutely can't fly any more. That's just the way I flew my Spectrum
Beaver for 1000 hrs. Somehow I'd got the impression that the Kolb was
different, but now I'm really looking forward to this.
Thanks for all the input.
JG
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: FireFly CofG |
Somehow I'd got the impression that the Kolb was different, but now I'm
really looking forward to this.
JG
The Fire Fly is a scaled down Sling Shot. With a 40 hp engine it is a
little hot rod, very agile, quick roll rate. It does well in rough air.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Kolb quit revealed |
Your right JohnStalls the same speed at a given attitude and a different
at another. "With the same load and weather conditions and attitude,"
john hmkIIITitus, Alabama
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Kolb quit revealed |
I'm sure John would agree with me on this one.
The supposed "Kolb Quit" is an approach stall (power off) while *in ground
effect*. The power off stalling characteristic of a Kolb Mk III, properly
built, i.e. with a center section and either good coverings on the upper
rear pod or the engine bay frame covered, is for some buffeting and a
gentle break. It is the ground effect part of the equation that makes the
Quit so damaging to landing gear. I would be willing to bet a quarter that
stalls in ground effect occur at 3 to 5 mph lower airspeed than they do out
of ground effect. Since lift is calculated from the dynamic pressure
equation (1/2 rho * Vsquared, where rho is the mass density of air and V is
speed) That small reduction in air speed has a dramatic effect on the
amount of lift the wing is producing and when it goes away, whammo ( I have
the limp noodle aluminum landing gear legs to prove the whammo part :-} ).
End of where John and I agree, I think.
Dennis, one more thing you might consider doing to further improve the slow
flight characteristics of your Mk III is to seal the gap between the
horizontal stabilizers and the boom tube. You will find two improvements if
you do. 1) Rudder effectiveness is improved to the point that you can pick
up a falling wing while near stall speed and 2) Because of 1) it is
possible to hold the airplane in a wings level stall as long as you want
while descending in a flat attitude at a vertical speed of 1200 to 1500 fpm
down.
Rick Girard
On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 8:55 AM, vic <vicsv@myfairpoint.net> wrote:
> **
>
> Your right John
>
> Stalls the same speed at a given attitude and a different at another.
>
>
> "With the same load and weather conditions and *attitude*,"
>
> john h******
>
> mkIII****
>
> Titus, Alabama****
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: FireFly CofG |
Let's define power here. My "holding power" (3000 rpm) may not be yours. I
land Kolbs the same way I landed Cessna 182s, hold a little power right
down to the deck, pull it off and let it settle. I do very little in the
way of flaring in the Mk III because it isn't set up for a full stall
landing. It "wheels in on three" beautifully, though, even at 1220 lb. Ken
Holle can testify to that since we did it in his airplane last Sunday
evening.
I still think most of the landing problems pilots new to Kolbs have is the
sight picture on landing. Depending on model the pilots eyes are anywhere
from 12 to 24 inches closer to the runway in a Kolb. If one uses the visual
cues used previously, you land that much too high above the runway.
Rick Girard
On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 6:14 AM, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
> ** **
>
> * *Somehow I'd got the impression that the Kolb was different, but now
> I'm really looking forward to this. ****
>
> JG****
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> The Fire Fly is a scaled down Sling Shot. With a 40 hp engine it is a little
hot rod, very agile, quick roll rate. It does well in rough air.****
>
> ** **
>
> john h****
>
> mkIII****
>
> Titus, Alabama****
>
> * *
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
Message 6
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Subject: | Fwd: Altitude/speed control when landing |
My first "real" ultralight was an Ultrastar, then I bought the FlagFly.
When I bought the FlagFly a number of years had passed since I last
flew, plus I only ever had 3 hours of actual training, which was in a
T-craft, the balance was self-taught, so I took 10 hours of instruction
at Queen City Airport. Adam, my instructor, who looked a bit like SNL's
Andy Samberg, taught me that when you're in the pattern you reverse the
normal RPM's for airspeed and elevators for altitude mode, and use the
yoke/elevators to set your speed and adjust the RPMs to determine your
altitude and consequently your touch down point. Is this common among
us? What is your method? I'll attach a 2.5 MB video from the cockpit
of a jet landing on an aircraft carrier that shows the pilot doing that.
*
(This post was rejected because the attachment, a wmv, file is not
supported by the list, in their fight to halt the spread of viruses,
etc. It's a really neat video and I scanned it with 3 different scans,
anti-malware, anti-spam and anti-virus, and it's clean. So if you'd
like to see it, email me directly and I'll send it to you directly.)*
One time we were in the pattern and there was a plane landing in front
of us. After he landed he was messing around on the runway so Adam had
me maintain my altitude, not knowing if we'd be able to land or have to
go around till the other plane was clear. We turned final very high
just as the other plane cleared, so Adam told me to give it full flaps
and see if I could land it. That was the first time I landed a GA with
full flaps and as we were diving toward the runway I laughed and said,
"Now THIS is what I'm used to after flying an Ultrastar." I felt very
comfortable dropping it in and flared just fine, thanks to my Kolb
experience!
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
FireFly 11DMK
On 2/1/2012 9:28 PM, Rick Neilsen wrote:
> Our Kolbs have a tremendous capability to fly in and out of very short
> fields. The very steep approach angle with very little flair time is
> necessary to be able to complete incredibly short landings. It's what
> they were designed for. Pilots new to Kolbs are advised to maintain
> power on approach right down to the landing flair. Later after a few
> landings it is good to start gradually exploring the planes capability
> but go slowly. My GA experience made my transition to my Kolb more
> difficult. John is right it is just a simple matter of maintaining
> flying speed. It really is that simple. The problem is pilots new to
> Kolbs aren't prepared for the visual impact of seeing the high ground
> closure rate up so close and personal. The natural reaction is to
> flare way too high and without power, flying speed is lost very
> quickly and that isn't good. So we have a very well designed airplane,
> we just need to learn how to fly them properly to be able to use all
> their capabilities. In summery there is no such thing as Kolb quit
> there is only pilot quit.
>
> Rick Neilsen
> Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC **
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: VGs - Flight Report |
John Hauck wrote:
<< Chubby Miss P'fer (don't tell her I said that) flies at 3,000 rpm
without
falling out of the sky. >>
==============
??!! 3000 RPM?
You sure that's not a typo, and do you really mean 4000?
I wonder if my Mark-3 performance numbers are a result of the high
elevations I fly at. My home airfield is 6500 feet MSL. So the
majority of my flying is at 7000 feet and higher. These are the
altitudes my flight report numbers came from - somewhere between 7000
and 8000 feet. The lowest my Kolb has ever been was when I landed at
Mid Valley airport in Los Lunas, New Mexico (elev 4830'). When I
departed that airport, I could tell my Mark-3 had better climbout
performance that what I was used to.
I believe that all airplanes are able to fly at lower power settings at
lower altitudes, due to the "thicker" (more dense) air. (Another way of
saying the same thing is, airplanes perform better on the same power
settings at lower elevations.) One of my goals is to fly my Kolb to the
coast, and experience flying at near sea-level. I'll probably be amazed
at the apparent performance improvement!
Dennis Kirby
New Mexico
do not archive
Message 8
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Subject: | no liabilety sale |
I have a- person in the country if chilly thats wants me to fill a contan
er with a firefly and kitfox lite this a perfict chance to sell a firefly w
ith no liabilety.I will pay cash for your plane up frunt-no N# required
=0Aplease contact me off list-- mal=0A=0AMalcolm & Jeanne Brubaker =0AM
ichigan Sport Pilot Repair =0ALSRM-A, PPC, WS=0AGreat Sails - Sailmaker =0A
for Ultralight & Light Sport=0A(989)513-3022=0A =0A=0A_____________________
___________=0A From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>=0ATo: kolb-list@m
atronics.com =0ASent: Thursday, February 2, 2012 11:04 AM=0ASubject: Re: Ko
lb-List: Kolb quit revealed=0A =0A=0AI'm sure John would agree with me on
this one.=0AThe supposed "Kolb Quit" is an approach stall (power off) while
in ground effect. The power off stalling characteristic of a Kolb Mk III,
properly built, i.e. with a center section and either good coverings on the
upper rear pod or the engine bay frame covered, is for some buffeting and
a gentle break. It is the ground effect part of the equation that makes the
Quit so damaging to landing gear. I would be willing to bet a quarter that
stalls in ground effect occur at 3 to 5 mph lower airspeed than they do ou
t of ground effect. Since lift is calculated from the dynamic pressure equa
tion (1/2 rho * Vsquared, where rho is the mass density of air and V is spe
ed) That small reduction in air speed has a dramatic effect on the amount o
f lift the wing is producing and when it goes away, whammo ( I have the lim
p noodle aluminum landing gear legs to prove the whammo part :-} ). End of
where John and I agree, I think. =0ADennis, one more thing you might consid
er doing to further improve the slow flight characteristics of your Mk III
is to seal the gap between the horizontal stabilizers and the boom tube. Yo
u will find two improvements if you do. 1) Rudder effectiveness is improved
to the point that you can pick up a falling wing while near stall speed an
d 2) Because of 1) it is possible to hold the airplane in a wings level sta
ll as long as you want while descending in a flat attitude at a vertical sp
eed of 1200 to 1500 fpm down. =0A=0ARick Girard=0A=0A=0AOn Thu, Feb 2, 2012
at 8:55 AM, vic <vicsv@myfairpoint.net> wrote:=0A=0A =0A>Your right John
=0A>Stalls the same speed at a given attitude and a different at another.
=0A>-=0A>"With the same load and weather conditions and attitude,"-
=0A>john h =0A>mkIII=0A>Titus, Alabama =0A>get="_blank">http://www.matro
nics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List=0Atp://forums.matronics.com=0A_blank">http://w
ww.matronics.com/contribution =0A=0A=0A-- =0A=0AZulu Delta=0AMk IIIC=0AThan
ks, Homer GBYM=0A=0AIt isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in
=====
Message 9
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|
I say, if your kolb has no bad habits you are fine, however,
I purchased a used Firestar 2 that had a few quirks.
The elevator would go completly away 5mph above stall, 44mph ias, just a
stick in a bowl of mush. Also had a bad habit of dropping a wing at stall
and not always the same one either. The previous owner said 50 is nifty
and would keep me out of trouble and that was true.
I installed Mr Harts VG's at 9" back in the valleys and some under the
tail. Now I have a brand new pussycat of a Kolb. I would let my wife fly
this sweet bird without a qualm, but so far she has declined.
Stalls at 40mph with no wing drop and the alierions alone will hold them
level through the stall. The elevator is solid through out the stall.
I am very pleased, slow flight is no work at all.
Mike
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: FireFly CofG |
Listers'
99% of my MK3 landings,short spring steel gear legs,are full stall 3 point
events.Approach with engine at idle,Jabiru 2200a 900rpm static idle,and w/v
g's.Only with stiff cross winds do I wheel land it or use some power .It's
just like any other tail wheel aircraft.
G.Aman
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
Sent: Thu, Feb 2, 2012 11:26 am
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: FireFly CofG
Let's define power here. My "holding power" (3000 rpm) may not be yours. I
land Kolbs the same way I landed Cessna 182s, hold a little power right dow
n to the deck, pull it off and let it settle. I do very little in the way o
f flaring in the Mk III because it isn't set up for a full stall landing. I
t "wheels in on three" beautifully, though, even at 1220 lb. Ken Holle can
testify to that since we did it in his airplane last Sunday evening.
I still think most of the landing problems pilots new to Kolbs have is the
sight picture on landing. Depending on model the pilots eyes are anywhere f
rom 12 to 24 inches closer to the runway in a Kolb. If one uses the visual
cues used previously, you land that much too high above the runway.
Rick Girard
On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 6:14 AM, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
Somehow I'd got the impression that the Kolb was different, but now I'm re
ally looking forward to this.
JG
The Fire Fly is a scaled down Sling Shot. With a 40 hp engine it is a litt
le hot rod, very agile, quick roll rate. It does well in rough air.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
Message 11
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|
Subject: | Re: FireFly CofG |
Gary, Ken's Mk III has the wings set at 2.8 degrees relative to the engine
mount and has the long steel tube gear. I tried a full stall landing, she
landed tail wheel first. Hence I wheel her on three.
Rick
On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 12:51 PM, Gary Aman <zeprep251@aol.com> wrote:
> Listers'
> 99% of my MK3 landings,short spring steel gear legs,are full stall 3 point
> events.Approach with engine at idle,Jabiru 2200a 900rpm static idle,and
> w/vg's.Only with stiff cross winds do I wheel land it or use some power
> .It's just like any other tail wheel aircraft.
> G.Aman
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
> To: kolb-list <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thu, Feb 2, 2012 11:26 am
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: FireFly CofG
>
> Let's define power here. My "holding power" (3000 rpm) may not be yours.
> I land Kolbs the same way I landed Cessna 182s, hold a little power right
> down to the deck, pull it off and let it settle. I do very little in the
> way of flaring in the Mk III because it isn't set up for a full stall
> landing. It "wheels in on three" beautifully, though, even at 1220 lb. Ken
> Holle can testify to that since we did it in his airplane last Sunday
> evening.
> I still think most of the landing problems pilots new to Kolbs have is the
> sight picture on landing. Depending on model the pilots eyes are anywhere
> from 12 to 24 inches closer to the runway in a Kolb. If one uses the visual
> cues used previously, you land that much too high above the runway.
>
> Rick Girard
>
> On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 6:14 AM, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> ** **
>> * *Somehow I'd got the impression that the Kolb was different, but now
>> I'm really looking forward to this. ****
>> JG****
>>
>> * *
>>
>> * *
>>
>> * *
>>
>> The Fire Fly is a scaled down Sling Shot. With a 40 hp engine it is a little
hot rod, very agile, quick roll rate. It does well in rough air.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> john h****
>>
>> mkIII****
>>
>> Titus, Alabama****
>>
>> * *
>>
>> *
>>
>> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
>>
>>
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Zulu Delta
> Mk IIIC
> Thanks, Homer GBYM
>
> It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be
> unhappy.
> - Groucho Marx
>
>
> *
>
> tor?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> bution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Kolb quit revealed |
I explained an anomaly about my Kolb that supports the mythic Kolb Quit
ie. stall.
Lets pretend that I didn't do my stall testing at 5ft of altitude. That
I know what ground effect is and that I wasn't flying 3 to 5 mph slower
than my normal indicated stall and then complaining because it stalled.
I did not bend my gear legs. So before you blame my testing on poor
pilotage maybe you should all hop in your own Kolbs and do some tests of
your own.
Lets also be aware that although I am a low timer I can be as big a
know it all and blow hard as anyone on this list :):):).
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Girard
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 11:04 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb quit revealed
I'm sure John would agree with me on this one.
The supposed "Kolb Quit" is an approach stall (power off) while in
ground effect. The power off stalling characteristic of a Kolb Mk III,
properly built, i.e. with a center section and either good coverings on
the upper rear pod or the engine bay frame covered, is for some
buffeting and a gentle break. It is the ground effect part of the
equation that makes the Quit so damaging to landing gear. I would be
willing to bet a quarter that stalls in ground effect occur at 3 to 5
mph lower airspeed than they do out of ground effect. Since lift is
calculated from the dynamic pressure equation (1/2 rho * Vsquared, where
rho is the mass density of air and V is speed) That small reduction in
air speed has a dramatic effect on the amount of lift the wing is
producing and when it goes away, whammo ( I have the limp noodle
aluminum landing gear legs to prove the whammo part :-} ). End of where
John and I agree, I think.
Dennis, one more thing you might consider doing to further improve the
slow flight characteristics of your Mk III is to seal the gap between
the horizontal stabilizers and the boom tube. You will find two
improvements if you do. 1) Rudder effectiveness is improved to the point
that you can pick up a falling wing while near stall speed and 2)
Because of 1) it is possible to hold the airplane in a wings level stall
as long as you want while descending in a flat attitude at a vertical
speed of 1200 to 1500 fpm down.
Rick Girard
On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 8:55 AM, vic <vicsv@myfairpoint.net> wrote:
Your right JohnStalls the same speed at a given attitude and a different
at another. "With the same load and weather conditions and attitude,"
john hmkIIITitus, Alabama
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be
unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
Message 13
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|
Subject: | Re: VGs - Flight Report |
Mine also stays in the air at 3000 400ft alt though.
Vic
----- Original Message -----
From: Kirby, Dennis Civ USAF AFMC AFNWC/ENS
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 11:56 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: VGs - Flight Report
John Hauck wrote:
<< Chubby Miss P'fer (don't tell her I said that) flies at 3,000 rpm
without
falling out of the sky. >>
==============
??!! 3000 RPM?
You sure that's not a typo, and do you really mean 4000?
I wonder if my Mark-3 performance numbers are a result of the high
elevations I fly at. My home airfield is 6500 feet MSL. So the
majority of my flying is at 7000 feet and higher. These are the
altitudes my flight report numbers came from - somewhere between 7000
and 8000 feet. The lowest my Kolb has ever been was when I landed at
Mid Valley airport in Los Lunas, New Mexico (elev 4830'). When I
departed that airport, I could tell my Mark-3 had better climbout
performance that what I was used to.
I believe that all airplanes are able to fly at lower power settings
at lower altitudes, due to the "thicker" (more dense) air. (Another way
of saying the same thing is, airplanes perform better on the same power
settings at lower elevations.) One of my goals is to fly my Kolb to the
coast, and experience flying at near sea-level. I'll probably be amazed
at the apparent performance improvement!
Dennis Kirby
New Mexico
do not archive
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: FireFly CofG |
Rick,
What is the plans built angle for the old MK3?
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
Sent: Thu, Feb 2, 2012 4:01 pm
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: FireFly CofG
Gary, Ken's Mk III has the wings set at 2.8 degrees relative to the engine
mount and has the long steel tube gear. I tried a full stall landing, she
landed tail wheel first. Hence I wheel her on three.
Rick
On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 12:51 PM, Gary Aman <zeprep251@aol.com> wrote:
Listers'
99% of my MK3 landings,short spring steel gear legs,are full stall 3 point
events.Approach with engine at idle,Jabiru 2200a 900rpm static idle,and w/v
g's.Only with stiff cross winds do I wheel land it or use some power .It's
just like any other tail wheel aircraft.
G.Aman
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
Sent: Thu, Feb 2, 2012 11:26 am
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: FireFly CofG
Let's define power here. My "holding power" (3000 rpm) may not be yours. I
land Kolbs the same way I landed Cessna 182s, hold a little power right dow
n to the deck, pull it off and let it settle. I do very little in the way o
f flaring in the Mk III because it isn't set up for a full stall landing. I
t "wheels in on three" beautifully, though, even at 1220 lb. Ken Holle can
testify to that since we did it in his airplane last Sunday evening.
I still think most of the landing problems pilots new to Kolbs have is the
sight picture on landing. Depending on model the pilots eyes are anywhere f
rom 12 to 24 inches closer to the runway in a Kolb. If one uses the visual
cues used previously, you land that much too high above the runway.
Rick Girard
On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 6:14 AM, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
Somehow I'd got the impression that the Kolb was different, but now I'm re
ally looking forward to this.
JG
The Fire Fly is a scaled down Sling Shot. With a 40 hp engine it is a litt
le hot rod, very agile, quick roll rate. It does well in rough air.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
tor?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
bution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
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Subject: | Re: Kolb quit revealed |
Vic, Nobody criticized you, Piss off and grow a pair, okay.
Rick
On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 3:07 PM, vic <vicsv@myfairpoint.net> wrote:
> **
> I explained an anomaly about my Kolb that supports the mythic Kolb Quit
> ie. stall.
> Lets pretend that I didn't do my stall testing at 5ft of altitude. That I
> know what ground effect is and that I wasn't flying 3 to 5 mph slower than
> my normal indicated stall and then complaining because it stalled.
> I did not bend my gear legs. So before you blame my testing on poor
> pilotage maybe you should all hop in your own Kolbs and do some tests of
> your own.
> Lets also be aware that although I am a low timer I can be as big a know
> it all and blow hard as anyone on this list :):):).
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
> *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 02, 2012 11:04 AM
> *Subject:* Re: Kolb-List: Kolb quit revealed
>
> I'm sure John would agree with me on this one.
> The supposed "Kolb Quit" is an approach stall (power off) while *in
> ground effect*. The power off stalling characteristic of a Kolb Mk III,
> properly built, i.e. with a center section and either good coverings on the
> upper rear pod or the engine bay frame covered, is for some buffeting and a
> gentle break. It is the ground effect part of the equation that makes the
> Quit so damaging to landing gear. I would be willing to bet a quarter that
> stalls in ground effect occur at 3 to 5 mph lower airspeed than they do out
> of ground effect. Since lift is calculated from the dynamic pressure
> equation (1/2 rho * Vsquared, where rho is the mass density of air and V is
> speed) That small reduction in air speed has a dramatic effect on the
> amount of lift the wing is producing and when it goes away, whammo ( I have
> the limp noodle aluminum landing gear legs to prove the whammo part :-} ).
> End of where John and I agree, I think.
> Dennis, one more thing you might consider doing to further improve the
> slow flight characteristics of your Mk III is to seal the gap between the
> horizontal stabilizers and the boom tube. You will find two improvements if
> you do. 1) Rudder effectiveness is improved to the point that you can pick
> up a falling wing while near stall speed and 2) Because of 1) it is
> possible to hold the airplane in a wings level stall as long as you want
> while descending in a flat attitude at a vertical speed of 1200 to 1500 fpm
> down.
>
> Rick Girard
>
> On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 8:55 AM, vic <vicsv@myfairpoint.net> wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>> Your right John
>>
>> Stalls the same speed at a given attitude and a different at another.
>>
>>
>>
>> "With the same load and weather conditions and *attitude*,"
>>
>> john h******
>>
>> mkIII****
>>
>> Titus, Alabama****
>>
>> *
>>
>> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> *
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Zulu Delta
> Mk IIIC
> Thanks, Homer GBYM
>
> It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
> - Groucho Marx
>
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c*
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
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Subject: | Re: Kolb quit revealed |
Rick
Thats very funny. Maybe someone should get a reduction :)
Sure sounded like condescending dismissal to me. My bad.
Vic
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And if I were you, I would also gap seal the elevators to the horizontal stabs.
Easy and can only help.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
richard (at) bcchapel(dot)org
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:1
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=365493#365493
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Subject: | Kolb quit revealed |
Gents:
Perhaps it would let some of the heat out of this string if we re-named it
"Pilot Quit". since Kolbs are not failing or "quitting" here.
Kolbs, model for model, given the same conditions, do precisely the same
thing every time. just like every other airplane on the planet.
Seems to me that the only true variable in the bent-gear sweepstakes is the
hand on the stick.
Even a brand new monkey learns to keep his freshly-licked finger out of the
electrical socket (or a few extra knots on the ASI)
after the first big eye-watering epiphany with serious voltage or Mother
Gravity.
I humbly submit that Kolbs don't "quit". any more than a P-51 or a J-3 Cub
quits. unless the Kolb driver first grants it permission
to do so . Don't do that.
Worth what ye paid fer it.
Beauford
FF-076
Brandon, FL
Do Not Archive very much..
On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 3:07 PM, vic <vicsv@myfairpoint.net> wrote:
I explained an anomaly about my Kolb that supports the mythic Kolb Quit ie.
stall.
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Girard <mailto:aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 11:04 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb quit revealed
I'm sure John would agree with me on this one.
The supposed "Kolb Quit" is an approach stall (power off) while in ground
effect.
=
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Subject: | Re: FireFly CofG |
Listers'
99% of my MK3 landings,short spring steel gear legs,are full
stall 3 point events.Approach with engine at idle,Jabiru
2200a 900rpm static idle,and w/vg's.Only with stiff cross
winds do I wheel land it or use some power .It's just like
any other tail wheel aircraft.
G.Aman
Me too, Gary.
I also use full flaps (40 degrees), unless strong cross wind
or at "real" airports with long runways.
If I stall above the ground, the aircraft will drop, whether
Kolb, Cessna, or Piper.
john h
mkIII
Woodville, Florida
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Subject: | Re: FireFly CofG |
Gary, Ken's Mk III has the wings set at 2.8 degrees relative
to the engine mount and has the long steel tube gear. I
tried a full stall landing, she landed tail wheel first.
Hence I wheel her on three.
Rick
Don't pull the nose up so high.
The US three points perfectly.
My original FS did too, because it had 35.5" long main gear
legs.
My MKIII does the same because the main gear have been
reconfigured and got the nose in the air.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
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Subject: | Re: FireFly CofG |
Rick,
What is the plans built angle for the old MK3?
Gary
It is variable, depending on how the builder interpreted the
rigging insturctions. I'll bet there aren't many rigged the
same. Doesn't make a whole lot of difference. Most of us
would never be able to tell.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
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Subject: | Kolb quit revealed |
I humbly submit that Kolbs dont quit any more than a
P-51 or a J-3 Cub quits unless the Kolb driver first
grants it permission
to do so Dont do that.
Worth what ye paid fer it
Beauford
You got that right, my friend.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
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Subject: | Re: VGs - Flight Report |
On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 9:56 AM, Kirby, Dennis Civ USAF AFMC AFNWC/ENS <
Dennis.Kirby@kirtland.af.mil> wrote:
Dennis, and the rest of you intending to install VG's. My Firestar II (
heavy) has two sets of VG's on the wings. The first ones were installed on
the ribs ( 7 ) at 11 inches. That gave me a 6 MPH reduction in stall. There
was some talk on the list that was too far back, so I installed another 7
at 10 inches in the false rib bay, and that gave me another 5 MPH hour
reduction. Which means that at gross weight my plane stalls at 32 to 36 MPH.
Roger Hankins has a KXP and he installed VG's at 10 inches and promptly
took them off as it made the planes performance worse. On one of his trips
over here to the Rock house we decided to try again and test them to see
where his best position would be. Since he had already tried 10 or 11
inches we set the first try at 9 inches. He then took off and did several
stalls, and different flights. It was better, but still not what he wanted.
We next tried 7 inches and the results were very much better. Flight
stability and stall was much improved.
The primary findings to me are that each model may respond differently at
the same settings, and each model or plane should be tested to obtain the
best results. (If they were all built by the same company as is the spam
cans are then each model would respond the same) Your results appear to be
close to the norm for VG's, so I have no clue as to whether you could
improve its performance by further testing. I have no explanation for why I
seem to have obtained a larger reduction other than the fact that my final
stall speed is in the ball park of where it should be. My original stall
apparently was exceptionally high.
The point that I am trying to make is that one size does not fit all. For
instance Roger's KXP actually landed slower with out VG's than my Firestar
did with them. Now it flies much better than it did before.
I am glad that you are happy with the VG's. Give up on John, he is right in
that Pfer does every thing he wants her to do and better than I can with
mine with VG's. I doubt that skill has anything to do with it however, but
like you I am convinced that VG's would make her even better. We will never
know though.
We are having the Rockhouse Fly-in the 23rd to the 30th of June this year.
It is on the way to the Oregon coast, so come on out and join us. You can
go to the coast afterward.
Larry
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