Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:21 AM - carb icing 912 (Ted Cowan)
2. 05:26 AM - Re: CARB ICING 912 (Thom Riddle)
3. 08:18 AM - Re: Kolb quit revealed (vic)
4. 09:05 AM - Re: Kolb quit revealed (Richard Girard)
5. 09:22 AM - kolb stall (b young)
6. 11:45 AM - Re: Kolb quit revealed (Beauford)
7. 01:47 PM - Re: CARB ICING 912 (John Hauck)
8. 04:43 PM - Re: Re: CARB ICING 912 (John Hauck)
Message 1
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Got over 300 hours on my 912UL on my slingshot and haven't had any trouble
with icing yet. I rarely ever throttle down below 2500 on landing, mostly
3200. I believe some of the reason is my radiator is right in front of the
carbs with the oil can between the carbs. I think with the heat of the
hoses, hot oil, etc, I get plenty of warmer air to the carbs. At least I
believe that. I am also very careful not to fly when the conditions are
'perfect' for icing. Now that my rum rum is mostly gone, it is a pleasure
to fly my little kite. A big thanks for Miss Lite for going to bat for me.
Hard to believe two gears could make all that noise and not show that much
wear. Anyway, may your flights be bright and your landings be soft. Ted
Cowan, Slingshot, 912ul, zoom zoom.
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: CARB ICING 912 |
I've had two cases of carb icing in 912 powered airplanes, one of which was in
a tractor/cowled engine. In both cases, it was during S&L cruise and I first noticed
something was amiss because the very slight loss of power at the beginning
resulted in a slight descent. No loss in RPM which is what some say to look
for. In stable cruise the loss in altitude will show up before a loss in rpm
or rough running. In both cases, cycling the throttle got rid of it, temporarily.
As long as the conditions support carb ice, any carb can ice, even those
which are less prone to doing so.
Humid conditions are the most prominent cause. You can see attached carb icing
chart, which makes this very clear, at following link:
http://cl.ly/0B402k3f3g311R3a3v0H
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
Truth is what stands the test of experience.
- Albert Einstein
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=365657#365657
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Kolb quit revealed |
It's too bad that two pilots I've always respected can be so close
minded, defensive and just plain wrong. Low time
doesn't make me a fool nor does high time make you a genius. If you want
to help people on this list pay attention
I'll type slowly.
Two things make me happy... flying my plane and thinking about flying
it.
You can call me an a-hole tell me to p off ,don't really care, but don't
even suggest i'm a poor pilot. Since you haven't whitnessed my flying
you must be talking through your ass. I'll just bet you and your pal
have busted more Kolbs than I have.
You tell me what I'm doing wrong and I'll listen. (if you haven't del.
already)
I do my stall test at 3000 rpm same as I maintain on landing. Stalls
at 28 indicated and gps. NOT 35 mph.
Stalled at 31 with last pilot passenger (my whitness). Not 35 or 40
Anything wrong yet?
If I want to wheel land and get too close to 35 mph I have use a little
power or drop the tail to give another 7 mph before stalling. If I want
to 3 point I can take it all the way down to nearly 28 no problem. It
took me awhile to catch on. I did think it was just me.
With my passenger we quit flying at 40. When I say quit I mean
stalled. Surprised the crap out of both of us.
Now my stall is 35 even if it isn't indicated at altitude.
This phenom is repeatable and has been witnessed by others.
Stupid me I thought this tidbit might help other newbee pilots or
monkeys as you call them.
If you can explain it please do. If not just say those words so
difficult for many "I don't Know"
I never heard of a P-51 quit. So where do you think the Kolb quit
originated anyway? Some fool low timer just make it up. Just maybee
someone else experienced a higher stall than what they had determined
earlier at altitude.
" Those of you that think you know it all are annoying to those of us
that do"
I humbly submit you just may be full of it.
And for the record ..I still wouldn't trade my Kolb even up for a
Lancair no matter what it stalls at.
Just as pissed as you right now! Vic
----- Original Message -----
From: Beauford
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 7:58 PM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Kolb quit revealed
Gents:
Perhaps it would let some of the heat out of this string if we
re-named it "Pilot Quit". since Kolbs are not failing or "quitting"
here.
Kolbs, model for model, given the same conditions, do precisely the
same thing every time. just like every other airplane on the planet.
Seems to me that the only true variable in the bent-gear sweepstakes
is the hand on the stick.
Even a brand new monkey learns to keep his freshly-licked finger out
of the electrical socket (or a few extra knots on the ASI)
after the first big eye-watering epiphany with serious voltage or
Mother Gravity.
I humbly submit that Kolbs don't "quit". any more than a P-51 or a J-3
Cub quits. unless the Kolb driver first grants it permission
to do so . Don't do that.
Worth what ye paid fer it.
Beauford
FF-076
Brandon, FL
Do Not Archive very much..
On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 3:07 PM, vic <vicsv@myfairpoint.net> wrote:
I explained an anomaly about my Kolb that supports the mythic Kolb
Quit ie. stall.
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Girard
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 11:04 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb quit revealed
I'm sure John would agree with me on this one.
The supposed "Kolb Quit" is an approach stall (power off) while in
ground effect.
==
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Kolb quit revealed |
Geez Vic, give it a rest. I, for one, wasn't even addressing my comment
about the possible link between ground effect and so-called "Kolb Quit".
I've never flown a P-51, but from what I've read in pilot reports, the
airplane has a vicious stall and is not to be trifled with.
There are two types of stalls that an examiner or instructor will make a
pilot demonstrate. Approach stalls, flown at idle power, and Departure
stalls, flown at full power. The Kolb Mk III, either version, will not do a
departure stall. I've had the stick full back against the seat frame in
both models and it never really breaks. Some days I can get a little prop
cavitation, but that's about it.
I can't tell you anything about stalls with the engine at 3000 rpm except
that without testing at idle power and full throttle it's meaningless.
The Kolb wing has a tiny leading edge radius. That's been known for 90+
years to cause a sharper stall break than one with a generous LER, so
there's no mystery there.
There are also high drag air frames that lose their energy quickly, no
mystery there either.
There's only one way I know of to keep the "Kolb Quit" at bay. Practice,
practice, and more practice.
Only a poor workman blames his tools.
Rick Girard
Do not archive
On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 10:11 AM, vic <vicsv@myfairpoint.net> wrote:
> **
> It's too bad that two pilots I've always respected can be so close minded
,
> defensive and just plain wrong. Low time
> doesn't make me a fool nor does high time make you a genius. If you want
> to help people on this list pay attention
> I'll type slowly.
> Two things make me happy... flying my plane and thinking about flying it.
> You can call me an a-hole tell me to p off ,don't really care, but don't
> even suggest i'm a poor pilot. Since you haven't whitnessed my flying you
> must be talking through your ass. I'll just bet you and your pal have
> busted more Kolbs than I have.
>
> You tell me what I'm doing wrong and I'll listen. (if you haven't del.
> already)
> I do my stall test at 3000 rpm same as I maintain on landing. Stalls a
t
> 28 indicated and gps. NOT 35 mph.
> Stalled at 31 with last pilot passenger (my whitness). Not 35 or 40
> Anything wrong yet?
> If I want to wheel land and get too close to 35 mph I have use a little
> power or drop the tail to give another 7 mph before stalling. If I want t
o
> 3 point I can take it all the way down to nearly 28 no problem. It took m
e
> awhile to catch on. I did think it was just me.
> With my passenger we quit flying at 40. When I say quit I mean
> stalled. Surprised the crap out of both of us.
> Now my stall is 35 even if it isn't indicated at altitude.
> This phenom is repeatable and has been witnessed by others.
>
> Stupid me I thought this tidbit might help other newbee pilots or monkeys
> as you call them.
> If you can explain it please do. If not just say those words so difficult
> for many "I don't Know"
>
> I never heard of a P-51 quit. So where do you think the Kolb quit
> originated anyway? Some fool low timer just make it up. Just maybee someo
ne
> else experienced a higher stall than what they had determined earlier at
> altitude.
>
> " Those of you that think you know it all are annoying to those of us tha
t
> do"
>
> I humbly submit you just may be full of it.
>
> And for the record ..I still wouldn't trade my Kolb even up for a Lancair
> no matter what it stalls at.
> Just as pissed as you right now! Vic
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* Beauford <beauford173@verizon.net>
> *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 02, 2012 7:58 PM
> *Subject:* RE: Kolb-List: Kolb quit revealed
>
> Gents:****
>
> Perhaps it would let some of the heat out of this string if we re-named i
t
> =93Pilot Quit=94=85 since Kolbs are not failing or =93quitting=94 here
=85****
>
> ** **
>
> Kolbs, model for model, given the same conditions, do precisely the same
> thing every time=85 just like every other airplane on the planet.****
>
> ** **
>
> Seems to me that the only true variable in the bent-gear sweepstakes is
> the hand on the stick=85 ****
>
> ** **
>
> Even a brand new monkey learns to keep his freshly-licked finger out of
> the electrical socket (or a few extra knots on the ASI)****
>
> after the first big eye-watering epiphany with serious voltage or Mother
> Gravity.****
>
> ** **
>
> I humbly submit that Kolbs don=92t =93quit=94=85 any more than a P-51 or
a J-3 Cub
> quits=85 unless the Kolb driver first grants it permission****
>
> to do so =85 Don=92t do that. ****
>
> ** **
>
> Worth what ye paid fer it=85****
>
> ** **
>
> Beauford****
>
> FF-076****
>
> Brandon, FL****
>
> Do Not Archive very much=85.****
>
> ** **
>
> On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 3:07 PM, vic <vicsv@myfairpoint.net> wrote:****
>
> I explained an anomaly about my Kolb that supports the mythic Kolb Quit
> ie. stall.****
>
> ----- Original Message ----- ****
>
> *From:* Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com> ****
>
> *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com ****
>
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 02, 2012 11:04 AM****
>
> *Subject:* Re: Kolb-List: Kolb quit revealed****
>
> ** **
>
> I'm sure John would agree with me on this one. ****
>
> The supposed "Kolb Quit" is an approach stall (power off) while *in
> ground effect*. ****
>
>
> ****
>
> *==*
>
> * *
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
*
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
Message 5
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vic & the group
I think when you get down to fine tuning an aircraft,,, (with regard to
stall) there are multiple factors, clean air, vs ground effect. the
numbers will be different, and if you want to see the most difference check
the difference in a very low wing design. when you get down to it, the
best way to determine stall, is to use an angle of attack meter, but
because of the cost involved, most light planes do not have one. as long
as the stall is done at 1 g or very very close to it. the airspeed at stall
is quite consistent, that is what is usually used. but when doing some
accelerated maneuvers, the angle of attack to produce a stall can be
reached well above the 1 g stall speed. (accelerated stall). the one
thing that can reach up and grab some pilots by surprise, it the stall at
landing, where you would think it is a 1 g landing flair... but when the
sink rate starts to increase, due to pilotage, wind gust, pause in wind or
other factors in the landing environment, and the pilot has to pull the
stick/yoke, to stop the sink rate, the g force can temporarily go above 1
g, the angle of attack be increased, and an accelerated stall reach up and
say "got ya". in planes like kolbs, there can be slight differences in the
peto/static system at different angle of attack and g levels. so unless
you can account for all the variables... or spend the money for angle of
attack instruments.. the ASI will only get you so close. and if you can
repeat the landings to the exact set of variables the ASI is as good as you
can get for the money. if you need more precision, spend the money.
so unless I have been down a long slippery slope with regard to this issue,
in theory, training and practice. I believe both parties are correct,
but each needed to qualify their answers. I hope more than I have benefited
from this, than just me as a refresher. they say you never learn something
as well as when you have to explain or teach it.
boyd young
mkIII
utah
archive this one.
Message 6
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Subject: | Kolb quit revealed |
Brother Vic.
Ah, but you take personal offense where none was intended or directed, sir.
It was only by chance that your post happened to be the one on this subject
immediately
before mine. You will notice mine was not addressed to you by name, but to
the general
audience.
My comments were directed at the largely unwarranted play the concept of
"Kolb Quit" has
received on this list over the past year or so. I do not recall addressing
you, calling you any derogatory
names or insulting you. I do not know who you are, or care how much or
little aviation experience you happen to
have.You are not relevant to the general point I was making. which was Kolbs
don't stall Kolbs. Pilots stall Kolbs.
Yes, and even P-51's.
About the monkey thing -- The "even a green monkey" analogy is one widely
used in the American military culture to explain
something by comparing it with something else. Think of it as "even a buck
private" and
it may go down easier than the monkey. Regretfully, I am but a victim of my
corrupt lifestyle of soldiering and petty crime.
Relax a little.Kolbing is supposed to be fun. Go take a good stogie and a
two-olive Beefeater Martini. We are all friends here.
beauford
FF-076
Brandon, FL
Do Not Archive
If you forward this e-mail, please remove my name before sending it... I
promise to do the same for you...
Thanks...
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of vic
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb quit revealed
It's too bad that two pilots I've always respected can be so close minded,
defensive and just plain wrong. Low time
doesn't make me a fool nor does high time make you a genius. If you want to
help people on this list pay attention
I'll type slowly.
Two things make me happy... flying my plane and thinking about flying it.
You can call me an a-hole tell me to p off ,don't really care, but don't
even suggest i'm a poor pilot. Since you haven't whitnessed my flying you
must be talking through your ass. I'll just bet you and your pal have busted
more Kolbs than I have.
You tell me what I'm doing wrong and I'll listen. (if you haven't del.
already)
I do my stall test at 3000 rpm same as I maintain on landing. Stalls at
28 indicated and gps. NOT 35 mph.
Stalled at 31 with last pilot passenger (my whitness). Not 35 or 40
Anything wrong yet?
If I want to wheel land and get too close to 35 mph I have use a little
power or drop the tail to give another 7 mph before stalling. If I want to 3
point I can take it all the way down to nearly 28 no problem. It took me
awhile to catch on. I did think it was just me.
With my passenger we quit flying at 40. When I say quit I mean stalled.
Surprised the crap out of both of us.
Now my stall is 35 even if it isn't indicated at altitude.
This phenom is repeatable and has been witnessed by others.
Stupid me I thought this tidbit might help other newbee pilots or monkeys as
you call them.
If you can explain it please do. If not just say those words so difficult
for many "I don't Know"
I never heard of a P-51 quit. So where do you think the Kolb quit originated
anyway? Some fool low timer just make it up. Just maybee someone else
experienced a higher stall than what they had determined earlier at
altitude.
" Those of you that think you know it all are annoying to those of us that
do"
I humbly submit you just may be full of it.
And for the record ..I still wouldn't trade my Kolb even up for a Lancair no
matter what it stalls at.
Just as pissed as you right now! Vic
----- Original Message -----
From: Beauford <mailto:beauford173@verizon.net>
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 7:58 PM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Kolb quit revealed
Gents:
Perhaps it would let some of the heat out of this string if we re-named it
"Pilot Quit". since Kolbs are not failing or "quitting" here.
Kolbs, model for model, given the same conditions, do precisely the same
thing every time. just like every other airplane on the planet.
Seems to me that the only true variable in the bent-gear sweepstakes is the
hand on the stick.
Even a brand new monkey learns to keep his freshly-licked finger out of the
electrical socket (or a few extra knots on the ASI)
after the first big eye-watering epiphany with serious voltage or Mother
Gravity.
I humbly submit that Kolbs don't "quit". any more than a P-51 or a J-3 Cub
quits. unless the Kolb driver first grants it permission
to do so . Don't do that.
Worth what ye paid fer it.
Beauford
FF-076
Brandon, FL
Do Not Archive very much..
On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 3:07 PM, vic <vicsv@myfairpoint.net> wrote:
I explained an anomaly about my Kolb that supports the mythic Kolb Quit ie.
stall.
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Girard <mailto:aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 11:04 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb quit revealed
I'm sure John would agree with me on this one.
The supposed "Kolb Quit" is an approach stall (power off) while in ground
effect.
=
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com
/Navigator?Kolb-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 7
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John, a com
Do you think the type of exhaust you run helps keep the carb
or intake air warm enough to reduce icing?
G.Aman
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
gary
Gary A/Kolbers,
I doubt the type exhaust makes much difference. The carbs
are isolated in front of the engine away from most engine
generated heat. Any ideas I have are guesses. When I did
get ice, the conditions were perfect for it. Indications
were engine miss at varying degrees felt by a thumping in
the airframe. Thumps and taps of different intensity, but
primarily low. Didn't really loose power more than a few
rpm, 50 or 100.
This was at cruise power, 5,000 rpm, when John B and I
experienced simultaneous icing. We were burning primarily
100LL with a little 91 octane mogas. Cycling the throttle
and leaving at WOT helped clear the ice.
Icing up the idle jet on approach was a complete surprise,
but it took a few minutes at closed throttle to ice up. I
was making a long, slow approach into Toad River in northern
British Columbia. I had been loitering in the mountains
east of the airstrip waiting for an isolated shower to move
out of the area. Temps were in the mid-40's and moisture
was hanging in the air. May be good reason to keep engine
rpm over 3,000 when there is a possibility of ice. The
engine ran perfect at 3,000, but died below that.
john h
mkIII
Woodville, Florida
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: CARB ICING 912 |
No loss in RPM which is what some say to look for. In
stable cruise the loss in altitude will show up before a
loss in rpm or rough running.
Thom Riddle
Don't quite understand the above.
My experience has been an occasional thump in the airframe
when the engine starts ingest ice. If and when the
situation gets worse, it will begin to lose power and rpm.
If I don't fly the airplane, it will lose altitude.
Your mileage may vary.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
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