Kolb-List Digest Archive

Sun 02/05/12


Total Messages Posted: 8



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 03:21 AM - carb icing 912 (Ted Cowan)
     2. 05:26 AM - Re: CARB ICING 912 (Thom Riddle)
     3. 08:18 AM - Re: Kolb quit revealed (vic)
     4. 09:05 AM - Re: Kolb quit revealed (Richard Girard)
     5. 09:22 AM - kolb stall (b young)
     6. 11:45 AM - Re: Kolb quit revealed (Beauford)
     7. 01:47 PM - Re: CARB ICING 912 (John Hauck)
     8. 04:43 PM - Re: Re: CARB ICING 912 (John Hauck)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 03:21:43 AM PST US
    From: "Ted Cowan" <tc1917@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: carb icing 912
    Got over 300 hours on my 912UL on my slingshot and haven't had any trouble with icing yet. I rarely ever throttle down below 2500 on landing, mostly 3200. I believe some of the reason is my radiator is right in front of the carbs with the oil can between the carbs. I think with the heat of the hoses, hot oil, etc, I get plenty of warmer air to the carbs. At least I believe that. I am also very careful not to fly when the conditions are 'perfect' for icing. Now that my rum rum is mostly gone, it is a pleasure to fly my little kite. A big thanks for Miss Lite for going to bat for me. Hard to believe two gears could make all that noise and not show that much wear. Anyway, may your flights be bright and your landings be soft. Ted Cowan, Slingshot, 912ul, zoom zoom.


    Message 2


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    Time: 05:26:59 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: CARB ICING 912
    From: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr@gmail.com>
    I've had two cases of carb icing in 912 powered airplanes, one of which was in a tractor/cowled engine. In both cases, it was during S&L cruise and I first noticed something was amiss because the very slight loss of power at the beginning resulted in a slight descent. No loss in RPM which is what some say to look for. In stable cruise the loss in altitude will show up before a loss in rpm or rough running. In both cases, cycling the throttle got rid of it, temporarily. As long as the conditions support carb ice, any carb can ice, even those which are less prone to doing so. Humid conditions are the most prominent cause. You can see attached carb icing chart, which makes this very clear, at following link: http://cl.ly/0B402k3f3g311R3a3v0H -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY (9G0) Kolb Slingshot SS-021 Jabiru 2200A #1574 Tennessee Prop 64x32 Truth is what stands the test of experience. - Albert Einstein Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=365657#365657


    Message 3


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    Time: 08:18:12 AM PST US
    From: "vic" <vicsv@myfairpoint.net>
    Subject: Re: Kolb quit revealed
    It's too bad that two pilots I've always respected can be so close minded, defensive and just plain wrong. Low time doesn't make me a fool nor does high time make you a genius. If you want to help people on this list pay attention I'll type slowly. Two things make me happy... flying my plane and thinking about flying it. You can call me an a-hole tell me to p off ,don't really care, but don't even suggest i'm a poor pilot. Since you haven't whitnessed my flying you must be talking through your ass. I'll just bet you and your pal have busted more Kolbs than I have. You tell me what I'm doing wrong and I'll listen. (if you haven't del. already) I do my stall test at 3000 rpm same as I maintain on landing. Stalls at 28 indicated and gps. NOT 35 mph. Stalled at 31 with last pilot passenger (my whitness). Not 35 or 40 Anything wrong yet? If I want to wheel land and get too close to 35 mph I have use a little power or drop the tail to give another 7 mph before stalling. If I want to 3 point I can take it all the way down to nearly 28 no problem. It took me awhile to catch on. I did think it was just me. With my passenger we quit flying at 40. When I say quit I mean stalled. Surprised the crap out of both of us. Now my stall is 35 even if it isn't indicated at altitude. This phenom is repeatable and has been witnessed by others. Stupid me I thought this tidbit might help other newbee pilots or monkeys as you call them. If you can explain it please do. If not just say those words so difficult for many "I don't Know" I never heard of a P-51 quit. So where do you think the Kolb quit originated anyway? Some fool low timer just make it up. Just maybee someone else experienced a higher stall than what they had determined earlier at altitude. " Those of you that think you know it all are annoying to those of us that do" I humbly submit you just may be full of it. And for the record ..I still wouldn't trade my Kolb even up for a Lancair no matter what it stalls at. Just as pissed as you right now! Vic ----- Original Message ----- From: Beauford To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 7:58 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Kolb quit revealed Gents: Perhaps it would let some of the heat out of this string if we re-named it "Pilot Quit". since Kolbs are not failing or "quitting" here. Kolbs, model for model, given the same conditions, do precisely the same thing every time. just like every other airplane on the planet. Seems to me that the only true variable in the bent-gear sweepstakes is the hand on the stick. Even a brand new monkey learns to keep his freshly-licked finger out of the electrical socket (or a few extra knots on the ASI) after the first big eye-watering epiphany with serious voltage or Mother Gravity. I humbly submit that Kolbs don't "quit". any more than a P-51 or a J-3 Cub quits. unless the Kolb driver first grants it permission to do so . Don't do that. Worth what ye paid fer it. Beauford FF-076 Brandon, FL Do Not Archive very much.. On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 3:07 PM, vic <vicsv@myfairpoint.net> wrote: I explained an anomaly about my Kolb that supports the mythic Kolb Quit ie. stall. ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Girard To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 11:04 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb quit revealed I'm sure John would agree with me on this one. The supposed "Kolb Quit" is an approach stall (power off) while in ground effect. ==


    Message 4


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    Time: 09:05:20 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Kolb quit revealed
    From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
    Geez Vic, give it a rest. I, for one, wasn't even addressing my comment about the possible link between ground effect and so-called "Kolb Quit". I've never flown a P-51, but from what I've read in pilot reports, the airplane has a vicious stall and is not to be trifled with. There are two types of stalls that an examiner or instructor will make a pilot demonstrate. Approach stalls, flown at idle power, and Departure stalls, flown at full power. The Kolb Mk III, either version, will not do a departure stall. I've had the stick full back against the seat frame in both models and it never really breaks. Some days I can get a little prop cavitation, but that's about it. I can't tell you anything about stalls with the engine at 3000 rpm except that without testing at idle power and full throttle it's meaningless. The Kolb wing has a tiny leading edge radius. That's been known for 90+ years to cause a sharper stall break than one with a generous LER, so there's no mystery there. There are also high drag air frames that lose their energy quickly, no mystery there either. There's only one way I know of to keep the "Kolb Quit" at bay. Practice, practice, and more practice. Only a poor workman blames his tools. Rick Girard Do not archive On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 10:11 AM, vic <vicsv@myfairpoint.net> wrote: > ** > It's too bad that two pilots I've always respected can be so close minded , > defensive and just plain wrong. Low time > doesn't make me a fool nor does high time make you a genius. If you want > to help people on this list pay attention > I'll type slowly. > Two things make me happy... flying my plane and thinking about flying it. > You can call me an a-hole tell me to p off ,don't really care, but don't > even suggest i'm a poor pilot. Since you haven't whitnessed my flying you > must be talking through your ass. I'll just bet you and your pal have > busted more Kolbs than I have. > > You tell me what I'm doing wrong and I'll listen. (if you haven't del. > already) > I do my stall test at 3000 rpm same as I maintain on landing. Stalls a t > 28 indicated and gps. NOT 35 mph. > Stalled at 31 with last pilot passenger (my whitness). Not 35 or 40 > Anything wrong yet? > If I want to wheel land and get too close to 35 mph I have use a little > power or drop the tail to give another 7 mph before stalling. If I want t o > 3 point I can take it all the way down to nearly 28 no problem. It took m e > awhile to catch on. I did think it was just me. > With my passenger we quit flying at 40. When I say quit I mean > stalled. Surprised the crap out of both of us. > Now my stall is 35 even if it isn't indicated at altitude. > This phenom is repeatable and has been witnessed by others. > > Stupid me I thought this tidbit might help other newbee pilots or monkeys > as you call them. > If you can explain it please do. If not just say those words so difficult > for many "I don't Know" > > I never heard of a P-51 quit. So where do you think the Kolb quit > originated anyway? Some fool low timer just make it up. Just maybee someo ne > else experienced a higher stall than what they had determined earlier at > altitude. > > " Those of you that think you know it all are annoying to those of us tha t > do" > > I humbly submit you just may be full of it. > > And for the record ..I still wouldn't trade my Kolb even up for a Lancair > no matter what it stalls at. > Just as pissed as you right now! Vic > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Beauford <beauford173@verizon.net> > *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Thursday, February 02, 2012 7:58 PM > *Subject:* RE: Kolb-List: Kolb quit revealed > > Gents:**** > > Perhaps it would let some of the heat out of this string if we re-named i t > =93Pilot Quit=94=85 since Kolbs are not failing or =93quitting=94 here =85**** > > ** ** > > Kolbs, model for model, given the same conditions, do precisely the same > thing every time=85 just like every other airplane on the planet.**** > > ** ** > > Seems to me that the only true variable in the bent-gear sweepstakes is > the hand on the stick=85 **** > > ** ** > > Even a brand new monkey learns to keep his freshly-licked finger out of > the electrical socket (or a few extra knots on the ASI)**** > > after the first big eye-watering epiphany with serious voltage or Mother > Gravity.**** > > ** ** > > I humbly submit that Kolbs don=92t =93quit=94=85 any more than a P-51 or a J-3 Cub > quits=85 unless the Kolb driver first grants it permission**** > > to do so =85 Don=92t do that. **** > > ** ** > > Worth what ye paid fer it=85**** > > ** ** > > Beauford**** > > FF-076**** > > Brandon, FL**** > > Do Not Archive very much=85.**** > > ** ** > > On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 3:07 PM, vic <vicsv@myfairpoint.net> wrote:**** > > I explained an anomaly about my Kolb that supports the mythic Kolb Quit > ie. stall.**** > > ----- Original Message ----- **** > > *From:* Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com> **** > > *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com **** > > *Sent:* Thursday, February 02, 2012 11:04 AM**** > > *Subject:* Re: Kolb-List: Kolb quit revealed**** > > ** ** > > I'm sure John would agree with me on this one. **** > > The supposed "Kolb Quit" is an approach stall (power off) while *in > ground effect*. **** > > > **** > > *==* > > * * > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c * > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx


    Message 5


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    Time: 09:22:56 AM PST US
    From: "b young" <byoungplumbing@gmail.com>
    Subject: kolb stall
    vic & the group I think when you get down to fine tuning an aircraft,,, (with regard to stall) there are multiple factors, clean air, vs ground effect. the numbers will be different, and if you want to see the most difference check the difference in a very low wing design. when you get down to it, the best way to determine stall, is to use an angle of attack meter, but because of the cost involved, most light planes do not have one. as long as the stall is done at 1 g or very very close to it. the airspeed at stall is quite consistent, that is what is usually used. but when doing some accelerated maneuvers, the angle of attack to produce a stall can be reached well above the 1 g stall speed. (accelerated stall). the one thing that can reach up and grab some pilots by surprise, it the stall at landing, where you would think it is a 1 g landing flair... but when the sink rate starts to increase, due to pilotage, wind gust, pause in wind or other factors in the landing environment, and the pilot has to pull the stick/yoke, to stop the sink rate, the g force can temporarily go above 1 g, the angle of attack be increased, and an accelerated stall reach up and say "got ya". in planes like kolbs, there can be slight differences in the peto/static system at different angle of attack and g levels. so unless you can account for all the variables... or spend the money for angle of attack instruments.. the ASI will only get you so close. and if you can repeat the landings to the exact set of variables the ASI is as good as you can get for the money. if you need more precision, spend the money. so unless I have been down a long slippery slope with regard to this issue, in theory, training and practice. I believe both parties are correct, but each needed to qualify their answers. I hope more than I have benefited from this, than just me as a refresher. they say you never learn something as well as when you have to explain or teach it. boyd young mkIII utah archive this one.


    Message 6


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    Time: 11:45:57 AM PST US
    From: "Beauford " <beauford173@verizon.net>
    Subject: Kolb quit revealed
    Brother Vic. Ah, but you take personal offense where none was intended or directed, sir. It was only by chance that your post happened to be the one on this subject immediately before mine. You will notice mine was not addressed to you by name, but to the general audience. My comments were directed at the largely unwarranted play the concept of "Kolb Quit" has received on this list over the past year or so. I do not recall addressing you, calling you any derogatory names or insulting you. I do not know who you are, or care how much or little aviation experience you happen to have.You are not relevant to the general point I was making. which was Kolbs don't stall Kolbs. Pilots stall Kolbs. Yes, and even P-51's. About the monkey thing -- The "even a green monkey" analogy is one widely used in the American military culture to explain something by comparing it with something else. Think of it as "even a buck private" and it may go down easier than the monkey. Regretfully, I am but a victim of my corrupt lifestyle of soldiering and petty crime. Relax a little.Kolbing is supposed to be fun. Go take a good stogie and a two-olive Beefeater Martini. We are all friends here. beauford FF-076 Brandon, FL Do Not Archive If you forward this e-mail, please remove my name before sending it... I promise to do the same for you... Thanks... From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of vic Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 11:12 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb quit revealed It's too bad that two pilots I've always respected can be so close minded, defensive and just plain wrong. Low time doesn't make me a fool nor does high time make you a genius. If you want to help people on this list pay attention I'll type slowly. Two things make me happy... flying my plane and thinking about flying it. You can call me an a-hole tell me to p off ,don't really care, but don't even suggest i'm a poor pilot. Since you haven't whitnessed my flying you must be talking through your ass. I'll just bet you and your pal have busted more Kolbs than I have. You tell me what I'm doing wrong and I'll listen. (if you haven't del. already) I do my stall test at 3000 rpm same as I maintain on landing. Stalls at 28 indicated and gps. NOT 35 mph. Stalled at 31 with last pilot passenger (my whitness). Not 35 or 40 Anything wrong yet? If I want to wheel land and get too close to 35 mph I have use a little power or drop the tail to give another 7 mph before stalling. If I want to 3 point I can take it all the way down to nearly 28 no problem. It took me awhile to catch on. I did think it was just me. With my passenger we quit flying at 40. When I say quit I mean stalled. Surprised the crap out of both of us. Now my stall is 35 even if it isn't indicated at altitude. This phenom is repeatable and has been witnessed by others. Stupid me I thought this tidbit might help other newbee pilots or monkeys as you call them. If you can explain it please do. If not just say those words so difficult for many "I don't Know" I never heard of a P-51 quit. So where do you think the Kolb quit originated anyway? Some fool low timer just make it up. Just maybee someone else experienced a higher stall than what they had determined earlier at altitude. " Those of you that think you know it all are annoying to those of us that do" I humbly submit you just may be full of it. And for the record ..I still wouldn't trade my Kolb even up for a Lancair no matter what it stalls at. Just as pissed as you right now! Vic ----- Original Message ----- From: Beauford <mailto:beauford173@verizon.net> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 7:58 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Kolb quit revealed Gents: Perhaps it would let some of the heat out of this string if we re-named it "Pilot Quit". since Kolbs are not failing or "quitting" here. Kolbs, model for model, given the same conditions, do precisely the same thing every time. just like every other airplane on the planet. Seems to me that the only true variable in the bent-gear sweepstakes is the hand on the stick. Even a brand new monkey learns to keep his freshly-licked finger out of the electrical socket (or a few extra knots on the ASI) after the first big eye-watering epiphany with serious voltage or Mother Gravity. I humbly submit that Kolbs don't "quit". any more than a P-51 or a J-3 Cub quits. unless the Kolb driver first grants it permission to do so . Don't do that. Worth what ye paid fer it. Beauford FF-076 Brandon, FL Do Not Archive very much.. On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 3:07 PM, vic <vicsv@myfairpoint.net> wrote: I explained an anomaly about my Kolb that supports the mythic Kolb Quit ie. stall. ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Girard <mailto:aslsa.rng@gmail.com> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 11:04 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb quit revealed I'm sure John would agree with me on this one. The supposed "Kolb Quit" is an approach stall (power off) while in ground effect. = href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c


    Message 7


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    Time: 01:47:28 PM PST US
    From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
    Subject: CARB ICING 912
    John, a com Do you think the type of exhaust you run helps keep the carb or intake air warm enough to reduce icing? G.Aman >>>>>>>>>>>>> gary Gary A/Kolbers, I doubt the type exhaust makes much difference. The carbs are isolated in front of the engine away from most engine generated heat. Any ideas I have are guesses. When I did get ice, the conditions were perfect for it. Indications were engine miss at varying degrees felt by a thumping in the airframe. Thumps and taps of different intensity, but primarily low. Didn't really loose power more than a few rpm, 50 or 100. This was at cruise power, 5,000 rpm, when John B and I experienced simultaneous icing. We were burning primarily 100LL with a little 91 octane mogas. Cycling the throttle and leaving at WOT helped clear the ice. Icing up the idle jet on approach was a complete surprise, but it took a few minutes at closed throttle to ice up. I was making a long, slow approach into Toad River in northern British Columbia. I had been loitering in the mountains east of the airstrip waiting for an isolated shower to move out of the area. Temps were in the mid-40's and moisture was hanging in the air. May be good reason to keep engine rpm over 3,000 when there is a possibility of ice. The engine ran perfect at 3,000, but died below that. john h mkIII Woodville, Florida


    Message 8


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    Time: 04:43:41 PM PST US
    From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: CARB ICING 912
    No loss in RPM which is what some say to look for. In stable cruise the loss in altitude will show up before a loss in rpm or rough running. Thom Riddle Don't quite understand the above. My experience has been an occasional thump in the airframe when the engine starts ingest ice. If and when the situation gets worse, it will begin to lose power and rpm. If I don't fly the airplane, it will lose altitude. Your mileage may vary. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama




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