Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:24 AM - Re: CARB ICING 912 (Thom Riddle)
2. 05:58 AM - Re: Re: CARB ICING 912 (John Hauck)
3. 06:04 AM - Re: Kolb quit revealed (Gary Aman)
4. 06:26 AM - Re: CARB ICING 912 (Gary Aman)
5. 07:14 AM - Kolb quit revealed (vic)
6. 07:24 AM - Re: Kolb quit revealed (Richard Girard)
7. 07:31 AM - Carb Icing, what the FAA has to say (Richard Girard)
8. 10:23 AM - Re: FAA registration renewal (Thom Riddle)
9. 12:15 PM - Re: CARB ICIingNG 912 (John Hauck)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: CARB ICING 912 |
John H,
I'll try again.
When cruising along at constant altitude in smooth air with hands off stick, adjusting
direction slightly at times with a touch of rudder pedal, the very first
sign of carb ice I have noticed, was a slight and gradual loss of altitude.
This may be due to the beginning stages of carb ice which slightly reduces the
airflow which reduces power slightly. A reduction in power (whether intentional
or not) in stable level cruise always results in a descent. If the pilot corrects
for this by adding up elevator to hold altitude without increasing throttle,
then the rpm (fixed pitch prop) will begin to decrease, as will the airspeed.
All I was saying is that under these conditions the very earliest sign of carb
beginning to ice is a slight and gradual descent with no detectable rpm drop or
rough running. If you are flying at cruise in rough air or the aircraft is not
flyable hands off then the pilot is probably moving the controls around at
least a little and this slight and gradual descent my not be detectable.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
Truth is what stands the test of experience.
- Albert Einstein
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=365714#365714
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Subject: | Re: CARB ICING 912 |
When cruising along at constant altitude in smooth air with
hands off stick, adjusting direction slightly at times with
a touch of rudder pedal, the very first sign of carb ice I
have noticed, was a slight and gradual loss of altitude.
Thom Riddle
Wish I could fly my Kolb like that. Would make long cross
country flights less work, but I'd really have a hard time
staying awake on those long boring legs.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
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Subject: | Re: Kolb quit revealed |
Vic,
You may want to rethink your approach to comments on this list.Rarely do pe
rsonal attacks gain you much acceptance or credibility.Sometimes a post has
been interpreted in a manner not intended.Always better to make that assum
ption before unloading both barrels at a perceived slight.
Been here,seen that.
Gary A.
-----Original Message-----
From: vic <vicsv@myfairpoint.net>
Sent: Sun, Feb 5, 2012 11:18 am
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb quit revealed
It's too bad that two pilots I've always respected can be so close minded,
defensive and just plain wrong. Low time
doesn't make me a fool nor does high time make you a genius. If you want to
help people on this list pay attention
I'll type slowly.
Two things make me happy... flying my plane and thinking about flying it.
You can call me an a-hole tell me to p off ,don't really care, but don't ev
en suggest i'm a poor pilot. Since you haven't whitnessed my flying you mus
t be talking through your ass. I'll just bet you and your pal have busted m
ore Kolbs than I have.
You tell me what I'm doing wrong and I'll listen. (if you haven't del. alre
ady)
I do my stall test at 3000 rpm same as I maintain on landing. Stalls at
28 indicated and gps. NOT 35 mph.
Stalled at 31 with last pilot passenger (my whitness). Not 35 or 40
Anything wrong yet?
If I want to wheel land and get too close to 35 mph I have use a little po
wer or drop the tail to give another 7 mph before stalling. If I want to 3
point I can take it all the way down to nearly 28 no problem. It took me aw
hile to catch on. I did think it was just me.
With my passenger we quit flying at 40. When I say quit I mean stalled.
Surprised the crap out of both of us.
Now my stall is 35 even if it isn't indicated at altitude.
This phenom is repeatable and has been witnessed by others.
Stupid me I thought this tidbit might help other newbee pilots or monkeys a
s you call them.
If you can explain it please do. If not just say those words so difficult f
or many "I don't Know"
I never heard of a P-51 quit. So where do you think the Kolb quit originate
d anyway? Some fool low timer just make it up. Just maybee someone else exp
erienced a higher stall than what they had determined earlier at altitude.
" Those of you that think you know it all are annoying to those of us that
do"
I humbly submit you just may be full of it.
And for the record ..I still wouldn't trade my Kolb even up for a Lancair n
o matter what it stalls at.
Just as pissed as you right now! Vic
----- Original Message -----
From: Beauford
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 7:58 PM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Kolb quit revealed
Gents:
Perhaps it would let some of the heat out of this string if we re-named i
t =C2=93Pilot Quit=C2=94=C2=85 since Kolbs are not failing or =C2=93quit
ting=C2=94 here=C2=85
Kolbs, model for model, given the same conditions, do precisely the same
thing every time=C2=85 just like every other airplane on the planet.
Seems to me that the only true variable in the bent-gear sweepstakes is t
he hand on the stick=C2=85
Even a brand new monkey learns to keep his freshly-licked finger out of t
he electrical socket (or a few extra knots on the ASI)
after the first big eye-watering epiphany with serious voltage or Mother
Gravity.
I humbly submit that Kolbs don=C2=92t =C2=93quit=C2=94=C2=85 any more tha
n a P-51 or a J-3 Cub quits=C2=85 unless the Kolb driver first grants i
t permission
to do so =C2=85 Don=C2=92t do that.
Worth what ye paid fer it=C2=85
Beauford
FF-076
Brandon, FL
Do Not Archive very much=C2=85.
On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 3:07 PM, vic <vicsv@myfairpoint.net> wrote:
I explained an anomaly about my Kolb that supports the mythic Kolb Quit i
e. stall.
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Girard
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 11:04 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb quit revealed
I'm sure John would agree with me on this one.
The supposed "Kolb Quit" is an approach stall (power off) while in grou
nd effect.
=
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?Kolb-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: CARB ICING 912 |
John, Just thought the top mounted exhaust might radiate a little.My Jabiru
is the most readily icing I have experienced.It is well removed from all h
eat sources and really gets your attention at ANY throttle setting when it
happens.If there is DEW,I got the heat on.My heat source is a conductive el
ement attached to the throttle shaft boss on the Bing 64.It is the size of
a stack of silver dollars an inch and a quarter high,attached by two screws
,and externally grounded with two terminals,one for 30 watts and both for 6
0 I think.Super simple and effective.Never heard of the hot water system fo
r the 912.
G.Aman
-----Original Message-----
From: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Sent: Sun, Feb 5, 2012 4:47 pm
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: CARB ICING 912
John,a com
Do you think the type of exhaust you run helps keep the carb
or intake air warm enough to reduce icing?
G.Aman
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
gary
Gary A/Kolbers,
I doubt the type exhaust makes much difference. The carbs
are isolated in front of the engine away from most engine
generated heat. Any ideas I have are guesses. When I did
get ice, the conditions were perfect for it. Indications
were engine miss at varying degrees felt by a thumping in
the airframe. Thumps and taps of different intensity, but
primarily low. Didn't really loose power more than a few
rpm, 50 or 100.
This was at cruise power, 5,000 rpm, when John B and I
experienced simultaneous icing. We were burning primarily
100LL with a little 91 octane mogas. Cycling the throttle
and leaving at WOT helped clear the ice.
Icing up the idle jet on approach was a complete surprise,
but it took a few minutes at closed throttle to ice up. I
was making a long, slow approach into Toad River in northern
British Columbia. I had been loitering in the mountains
east of the airstrip waiting for an isolated shower to move
out of the area. Temps were in the mid-40's and moisture
was hanging in the air. May be good reason to keep engine
rpm over 3,000 when there is a possibility of ice. The
engine ran perfect at 3,000, but died below that.
john h
mkIII
Woodville, Florida
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Subject: | Kolb quit revealed |
Thanks all for putting up with my rants. You'd think I'd shut the hell
up when I get cranky...but nooooo.
I blame it on the 3 weeks of "xtra" pain, little sleep, no beer and no
flying. I've got Jetpilotitis commonly known
as manapause.
I'm much better now:) I partook of generous amounts of libation...
before Beaufords post.
A little Rum and micro brewery beer is the only cure for me.
I'll try some different stall testing this spring ... start a new rant.
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Kolb quit revealed |
Vic, For my part, I could have been a little less sharp and quick to jump
the gun.
Do be careful about Jetpilotitis. The Kolb forum had a long infection of
that ailment already. :-}
Perhaps the British remedy for a cold would help with that. For those
unfamiliar;
Nail a hat to a wall in the bedroom.
Go to bed.
Drink (insert favorite alcoholic beverage here) until there are two hats.
Rick
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 9:11 AM, vic <vicsv@myfairpoint.net> wrote:
> **
> Thanks all for putting up with my rants. You'd think I'd shut the hell up
> when I get cranky...but nooooo.
> I blame it on the 3 weeks of "xtra" pain, little sleep, no beer and no
> flying. I've got Jetpilotitis commonly known
> as manapause.
>
> I'm much better now:) I partook of generous amounts of libation... before
> Beaufords post.
> A little Rum and micro brewery beer is the only cure for me.
>
> I'll try some different stall testing this spring ... start a new rant.
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
Message 7
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Subject: | Carb Icing, what the FAA has to say |
The following is from the FAA's Pilot Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge;
*Carburetor Icing*
As mentioned earlier, one disadvantage of the float-type carburetor is its
icing tendency. Carburetor ice occurs due to the effect of fuel
vaporization and the decrease in air pressure in the venturi, which causes
a sharp temperature drop in the carburetor. If water vapor in the air
condenses when the carburetor temperature is at or below freezing, ice may
form on internal surfaces of the carburetor, including the throttle valve.
The reduced air pressure, as well as the vaporization of fuel, contributes
to the temperature decrease in the carburetor. Ice generally forms in the
vicinity of the throttle valve and in the venturi throat. This restricts
the flow of the fuel/air mixture and reduces power. If enough ice builds
up, the engine may cease to operate. Carburetor ice is most likely to occur
when temperatures are below 70 degrees Fahrenheit (=B0F) or 21 degrees
Celsius (=B0C) and the relative humidity is above 80 percent. Due to the
sudden cooling that takes place in the carburetor, icing can occur even
with temperatures as high as 100 =B0F (38 =B0C) and humidity as low as 50
percent. This temperature drop can be as much as 60 to 70 =B0F (15 to 21
=B0C).
Therefore, at an outside air temperature of 100 =B0F (37 =B0C), a temperatu
re
drop of 70 =B0F (21 =B0C) results in an air temperature in the carburetor o
f 30
=B0F (-1 =B0C).
*The first indication of carburetor icing in an aircraft with a fixed-pitch
propeller is a decrease in engine rpm, which may be followed by engine
roughness.* In an aircraft with a constant-speed propeller, carburetor
icing is usually indicated by a decrease in manifold pressure, but no
reduction in rpm. Propeller pitch is automatically adjusted to compensate
for loss of power. Thus, a constant rpm is maintained. Although carburetor
ice can occur during any phase of flight, it is particularly dangerous when
using reduced power during a descent. Under certain conditions, carburetor
ice could build unnoticed until power is added. To combat the effects of
carburetor ice, engines with float-type carburetors employ a carburetor
heat system.
The PHAK is available here;
http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviation/pilot_handbook/
It is split up into chapters because it is huge. Just chapter 6 from which
the above was taken is 18+ Mbytes.
Rick Girard
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
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Subject: | Re: FAA registration renewal |
Fellow Kolbers,
The Mr. Bent I sent my email to, about the re-registration vs renewal issue, forwarded
my email to another FAA person. I got a response, long and convoluted,
from this person, which follows my synopsis.
My Synopsis:
The FIRST TIME we send in a "renewal" on the new system will result in a re-registration
date at the end of the month in which they receive and act on the request.
Afterwards, all subsequent renewals (on time or early) will receive the
full 3 three years. Their rationale for this is to redistribute the due dates
more evenly across the calendar year to preclude their work from bunching up.
The only reason it bunches up is because they unnecessarily (in my opinion) created
these 3 month groups, in which bunches of aircraft come due for regregistration/renewal
at the same time. This was not necessary. All they had to do
was to divide the due dates into months instead of quarters. But because they
divided into quarter groups, they caused the bunching up of their work load. So,
bottom line is that this "screw the aircraft owner" reregistration vs renewal
is supposed to happen only once per registration. At least that is my interpretation
of the following:
FAA'S RESPONSE:
I work in the Aircraft Registration office (Registry) and was part of
the group that put re-registration and renewal together. I've been
asked to reply to your question.
The use of a current date from which to count your re-registration
date from was stated in the final Rulemaking and has been repeated in
our supporting literature. With more than half the expected
re-registration certificates already issued, no change in the present
process is under consideration. I can explain why we set things up
to work as they do, and perhaps try to re-frame the view regarding
registration months lost due to early re-registration.
Since new registration has to be issued and delivered before the old
certificates expire for re-registration and renewal to work, we
recognized the importance of a smooth and even work flow from the
start. With re-registration expirations set to expire quarterly, if
we issued re-registration certificates to expire on the third
anniversary of their re-registration expiration date, we would have
built quarterly bulges into our future workloads. These bulges would
cause backlogs that could result in delayed delivery of future
renewal registration certificates. By issuing re-registration
certificates that expire three years from the month in which they are
issued, we set up our future workload to fall more evenly from month
to month. The other aircraft owners in your re-registration group
should apply and get dates from January through April if they apply
as scheduled. The real deadline to avoid grounding is April 30, so
the possible spread is 3 months. A few who forget, play the game or
have a problem will get dates in May or June, and some will even get
dates after they expire. The renewal certificates that will be
issued during future cycles are set up to expire on the same three
year anniversary date. During renewal, no matter when you make your
application, your new certificate will receive an expiration date of
January 31. Alternate schedules may have avoided the impression that
early applicants loose a few months of registration, but they would
have been more difficult to communicate and execute successfully.
The group benefits because a cause for future delays has been
eliminated. You benefit by knowing already that you are good to go.
Early application gives both of us time to recover from unforeseen
errors. There were no delaying errors for us to recover from in this
case, but had there been, we would have had plenty of time to fix
things.
The months you see as missing were not subtracted from your new
registration time, they came off of your old registration certificate
due to the required changes. On August 27, 2009, you were issued a
certificate of registration that, unlike almost any other
registration for property in the world, was good as long as you lived
until you sold the aircraft, removed it permanently from service, or
something happened that would cause the FAA to revoke it, all that
for the all but token charge of $5.00. To keep this. aircraft owners
as a group only had to keep their addresses updated, report sales,
register promptly after purchasing, and tell us when the aircraft had
finally left service for good. Life has too many tricks to allow
this large a group to meet that standard. We expect that as many as
111,000 aircraft will drop off the register of 360,000 aircraft
because they are not there to make application. Long before that you
first registered, the concerns of law enforcement about aircraft use
in drug smuggling and against our national security combined with the
growing ability of computers to make aircraft registration data
immediately available for both reference and analysis had been
raising requirements for more accurate and actionable aircraft
registration records. In July of 2010, the final approvals finally
fell into place and the new rules went into effect for the
re-registration of existing aircraft to clean up existing errors, and
the renewal of Aircraft registration every third year to keep future
errors from piling up. Re-registration scheduled your existing
registration to end when you made application, and told you - you
should apply during February, March or April of 2011. You filed
promptly and now have a certificate that is good for the next three
years, and your next, a renewal certificate, will be good for three
years after this one expires.
In short; the changes, the lost registration time, and the costs came
about as part of re-registration, which we had to do so we could do
our job well enough to support other parts of the government to do
their jobs, big and small, as best as they can. We worked hard to
find the combination of process steps that would as a group deliver
the least disruption for those affected. So far, it seems things are
working. Any applicant that has made a good application during their
assigned three month window has been their registration certificate
with time to arrive before their old certificate expired.
Thank you for filing early. It gave us time to take care of you if
some thing went wrong. Since it went well it gave us extra time to
help others who needed assistance.
I hope I made some sense out of this that is helpful to you. Feel
free to give me a call if in some way you feel this was not
responsive.
Jerry Super
Program Analyst
Aircraft Registration Branch. AFS-751
405-954-7040
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
Truth is what stands the test of experience.
- Albert Einstein
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=365741#365741
Message 9
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Subject: | CARB ICIingNG 912 |
Gary A/Kolbers:
The hot water system was from Great Britain. Supplied by a
trike dealer over there through a trike dealer over here. I
was concerned going back to Alaska without some source of
carb heat after experiencing the idle jet icing and killing
the engine less than 3,000 rpm. 385.00 dollars was a lot to
pay for it, but I thought I needed it. Got it a couple days
before departure north. Took a whole day of cutting and
splicing T's, valves, etc.
The electrical output of the 912 is already weak, but
adequate to supply my electrical needs. Would not want to
add to that already heavy load.
No matter how close the carbs were to the engine or exhaust,
an 80 to 90 mph wind would remove any heat before it could
help warm the carbs.
I have not found icing to be a real problem for me and my
912 engines. If it was I would install carb heat. Bing
carbs are not prone to icing, but will in extreme cases.
Again, not telling anyone how to do it nor am I recommending
anything. Meerly sharing my own personal experience and
opinion.
john h
mkIII
Woodville, Florida
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Gary Aman
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 8:23 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: CARB ICING 912
John, Just thought the top mounted exhaust might radiate a
little.My Jabiru is the most readily icing I have
experienced.It is well removed from all heat sources and
really gets your attention at ANY throttle setting when it
happens.If there is DEW,I got the heat on.My heat source is
a conductive element attached to the throttle shaft boss on
the Bing 64.It is the size of a stack of silver dollars an
inch and a quarter high,attached by two screws,and
externally grounded with two terminals,one for 30 watts and
both for 60 I think.Super simple and effective.Never heard
of the hot water system for the 912.
G.Aman
-----Original Message-----
From: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Sent: Sun, Feb 5, 2012 4:47 pm
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: CARB ICING 912
<jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
John, a com
Do you think the type of exhaust you run helps keep the carb
or intake air warm enough to reduce icing?
G.Aman
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
gary
Gary A/Kolbers,
I doubt the type exhaust makes much difference. The carbs
are isolated in front of the engine away from most engine
generated heat. Any ideas I have are guesses. When I did
get ice, the conditions were perfect for it. Indications
were engine miss at varying degrees felt by a thumping in
the airframe. Thumps and taps of different intensity, but
primarily low. Didn't really loose power more than a few
rpm, 50 or 100.
This was at cruise power, 5,000 rpm, when John B and I
experienced simultaneous icing. We were burning primarily
100LL with a little 91 octane mogas. Cycling the throttle
and leaving at WOT helped clear the ice.
Icing up the idle jet on approach was a complete surprise,
but it took a few minutes at closed throttle to ice up. I
was making a long, slow approach into Toad River in northern
British Columbia. I had been loitering in the mountains
east of the airstrip waiting for an isolated shower to move
out of the area. Temps were in the mid-40's and moisture
was hanging in the air. May be good reason to keep engine
rpm over 3,000 when there is a possibility of ice. The
engine ran perfect at 3,000, but died below that.
john h
mkIII
Woodville, Florida
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