Kolb-List Digest Archive

Mon 02/06/12


Total Messages Posted: 9



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 05:24 AM - Re: CARB ICING 912 (Thom Riddle)
     2. 05:58 AM - Re: Re: CARB ICING 912 (John Hauck)
     3. 06:04 AM - Re: Kolb quit revealed (Gary Aman)
     4. 06:26 AM - Re: CARB ICING 912 (Gary Aman)
     5. 07:14 AM - Kolb quit revealed (vic)
     6. 07:24 AM - Re: Kolb quit revealed (Richard Girard)
     7. 07:31 AM - Carb Icing, what the FAA has to say (Richard Girard)
     8. 10:23 AM - Re: FAA registration renewal (Thom Riddle)
     9. 12:15 PM - Re: CARB ICIingNG 912 (John Hauck)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 05:24:12 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: CARB ICING 912
    From: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr@gmail.com>
    John H, I'll try again. When cruising along at constant altitude in smooth air with hands off stick, adjusting direction slightly at times with a touch of rudder pedal, the very first sign of carb ice I have noticed, was a slight and gradual loss of altitude. This may be due to the beginning stages of carb ice which slightly reduces the airflow which reduces power slightly. A reduction in power (whether intentional or not) in stable level cruise always results in a descent. If the pilot corrects for this by adding up elevator to hold altitude without increasing throttle, then the rpm (fixed pitch prop) will begin to decrease, as will the airspeed. All I was saying is that under these conditions the very earliest sign of carb beginning to ice is a slight and gradual descent with no detectable rpm drop or rough running. If you are flying at cruise in rough air or the aircraft is not flyable hands off then the pilot is probably moving the controls around at least a little and this slight and gradual descent my not be detectable. -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY (9G0) Kolb Slingshot SS-021 Jabiru 2200A #1574 Tennessee Prop 64x32 Truth is what stands the test of experience. - Albert Einstein Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=365714#365714


    Message 2


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    Time: 05:58:23 AM PST US
    From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: CARB ICING 912
    When cruising along at constant altitude in smooth air with hands off stick, adjusting direction slightly at times with a touch of rudder pedal, the very first sign of carb ice I have noticed, was a slight and gradual loss of altitude. Thom Riddle Wish I could fly my Kolb like that. Would make long cross country flights less work, but I'd really have a hard time staying awake on those long boring legs. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama


    Message 3


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    Time: 06:04:56 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Kolb quit revealed
    From: Gary Aman <zeprep251@aol.com>
    Vic, You may want to rethink your approach to comments on this list.Rarely do pe rsonal attacks gain you much acceptance or credibility.Sometimes a post has been interpreted in a manner not intended.Always better to make that assum ption before unloading both barrels at a perceived slight. Been here,seen that. Gary A. -----Original Message----- From: vic <vicsv@myfairpoint.net> Sent: Sun, Feb 5, 2012 11:18 am Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb quit revealed It's too bad that two pilots I've always respected can be so close minded, defensive and just plain wrong. Low time doesn't make me a fool nor does high time make you a genius. If you want to help people on this list pay attention I'll type slowly. Two things make me happy... flying my plane and thinking about flying it. You can call me an a-hole tell me to p off ,don't really care, but don't ev en suggest i'm a poor pilot. Since you haven't whitnessed my flying you mus t be talking through your ass. I'll just bet you and your pal have busted m ore Kolbs than I have. You tell me what I'm doing wrong and I'll listen. (if you haven't del. alre ady) I do my stall test at 3000 rpm same as I maintain on landing. Stalls at 28 indicated and gps. NOT 35 mph. Stalled at 31 with last pilot passenger (my whitness). Not 35 or 40 Anything wrong yet? If I want to wheel land and get too close to 35 mph I have use a little po wer or drop the tail to give another 7 mph before stalling. If I want to 3 point I can take it all the way down to nearly 28 no problem. It took me aw hile to catch on. I did think it was just me. With my passenger we quit flying at 40. When I say quit I mean stalled. Surprised the crap out of both of us. Now my stall is 35 even if it isn't indicated at altitude. This phenom is repeatable and has been witnessed by others. Stupid me I thought this tidbit might help other newbee pilots or monkeys a s you call them. If you can explain it please do. If not just say those words so difficult f or many "I don't Know" I never heard of a P-51 quit. So where do you think the Kolb quit originate d anyway? Some fool low timer just make it up. Just maybee someone else exp erienced a higher stall than what they had determined earlier at altitude. " Those of you that think you know it all are annoying to those of us that do" I humbly submit you just may be full of it. And for the record ..I still wouldn't trade my Kolb even up for a Lancair n o matter what it stalls at. Just as pissed as you right now! Vic ----- Original Message ----- From: Beauford Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 7:58 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Kolb quit revealed Gents: Perhaps it would let some of the heat out of this string if we re-named i t =C2=93Pilot Quit=C2=94=C2=85 since Kolbs are not failing or =C2=93quit ting=C2=94 here=C2=85 Kolbs, model for model, given the same conditions, do precisely the same thing every time=C2=85 just like every other airplane on the planet. Seems to me that the only true variable in the bent-gear sweepstakes is t he hand on the stick=C2=85 Even a brand new monkey learns to keep his freshly-licked finger out of t he electrical socket (or a few extra knots on the ASI) after the first big eye-watering epiphany with serious voltage or Mother Gravity. I humbly submit that Kolbs don=C2=92t =C2=93quit=C2=94=C2=85 any more tha n a P-51 or a J-3 Cub quits=C2=85 unless the Kolb driver first grants i t permission to do so =C2=85 Don=C2=92t do that. Worth what ye paid fer it=C2=85 Beauford FF-076 Brandon, FL Do Not Archive very much=C2=85. On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 3:07 PM, vic <vicsv@myfairpoint.net> wrote: I explained an anomaly about my Kolb that supports the mythic Kolb Quit i e. stall. ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Girard Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 11:04 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb quit revealed I'm sure John would agree with me on this one. The supposed "Kolb Quit" is an approach stall (power off) while in grou nd effect. = href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c


    Message 4


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    Time: 06:26:23 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: CARB ICING 912
    From: Gary Aman <zeprep251@aol.com>
    John, Just thought the top mounted exhaust might radiate a little.My Jabiru is the most readily icing I have experienced.It is well removed from all h eat sources and really gets your attention at ANY throttle setting when it happens.If there is DEW,I got the heat on.My heat source is a conductive el ement attached to the throttle shaft boss on the Bing 64.It is the size of a stack of silver dollars an inch and a quarter high,attached by two screws ,and externally grounded with two terminals,one for 30 watts and both for 6 0 I think.Super simple and effective.Never heard of the hot water system fo r the 912. G.Aman -----Original Message----- From: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> Sent: Sun, Feb 5, 2012 4:47 pm Subject: RE: Kolb-List: CARB ICING 912 John,a com Do you think the type of exhaust you run helps keep the carb or intake air warm enough to reduce icing? G.Aman >>>>>>>>>>>>> gary Gary A/Kolbers, I doubt the type exhaust makes much difference. The carbs are isolated in front of the engine away from most engine generated heat. Any ideas I have are guesses. When I did get ice, the conditions were perfect for it. Indications were engine miss at varying degrees felt by a thumping in the airframe. Thumps and taps of different intensity, but primarily low. Didn't really loose power more than a few rpm, 50 or 100. This was at cruise power, 5,000 rpm, when John B and I experienced simultaneous icing. We were burning primarily 100LL with a little 91 octane mogas. Cycling the throttle and leaving at WOT helped clear the ice. Icing up the idle jet on approach was a complete surprise, but it took a few minutes at closed throttle to ice up. I was making a long, slow approach into Toad River in northern British Columbia. I had been loitering in the mountains east of the airstrip waiting for an isolated shower to move out of the area. Temps were in the mid-40's and moisture was hanging in the air. May be good reason to keep engine rpm over 3,000 when there is a possibility of ice. The engine ran perfect at 3,000, but died below that. john h mkIII Woodville, Florida


    Message 5


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    Time: 07:14:09 AM PST US
    From: "vic" <vicsv@myfairpoint.net>
    Subject: Kolb quit revealed
    Thanks all for putting up with my rants. You'd think I'd shut the hell up when I get cranky...but nooooo. I blame it on the 3 weeks of "xtra" pain, little sleep, no beer and no flying. I've got Jetpilotitis commonly known as manapause. I'm much better now:) I partook of generous amounts of libation... before Beaufords post. A little Rum and micro brewery beer is the only cure for me. I'll try some different stall testing this spring ... start a new rant.


    Message 6


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    Time: 07:24:19 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Kolb quit revealed
    From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
    Vic, For my part, I could have been a little less sharp and quick to jump the gun. Do be careful about Jetpilotitis. The Kolb forum had a long infection of that ailment already. :-} Perhaps the British remedy for a cold would help with that. For those unfamiliar; Nail a hat to a wall in the bedroom. Go to bed. Drink (insert favorite alcoholic beverage here) until there are two hats. Rick On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 9:11 AM, vic <vicsv@myfairpoint.net> wrote: > ** > Thanks all for putting up with my rants. You'd think I'd shut the hell up > when I get cranky...but nooooo. > I blame it on the 3 weeks of "xtra" pain, little sleep, no beer and no > flying. I've got Jetpilotitis commonly known > as manapause. > > I'm much better now:) I partook of generous amounts of libation... before > Beaufords post. > A little Rum and micro brewery beer is the only cure for me. > > I'll try some different stall testing this spring ... start a new rant. > > * > > * > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx


    Message 7


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    Time: 07:31:58 AM PST US
    Subject: Carb Icing, what the FAA has to say
    From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
    The following is from the FAA's Pilot Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge; *Carburetor Icing* As mentioned earlier, one disadvantage of the float-type carburetor is its icing tendency. Carburetor ice occurs due to the effect of fuel vaporization and the decrease in air pressure in the venturi, which causes a sharp temperature drop in the carburetor. If water vapor in the air condenses when the carburetor temperature is at or below freezing, ice may form on internal surfaces of the carburetor, including the throttle valve. The reduced air pressure, as well as the vaporization of fuel, contributes to the temperature decrease in the carburetor. Ice generally forms in the vicinity of the throttle valve and in the venturi throat. This restricts the flow of the fuel/air mixture and reduces power. If enough ice builds up, the engine may cease to operate. Carburetor ice is most likely to occur when temperatures are below 70 degrees Fahrenheit (=B0F) or 21 degrees Celsius (=B0C) and the relative humidity is above 80 percent. Due to the sudden cooling that takes place in the carburetor, icing can occur even with temperatures as high as 100 =B0F (38 =B0C) and humidity as low as 50 percent. This temperature drop can be as much as 60 to 70 =B0F (15 to 21 =B0C). Therefore, at an outside air temperature of 100 =B0F (37 =B0C), a temperatu re drop of 70 =B0F (21 =B0C) results in an air temperature in the carburetor o f 30 =B0F (-1 =B0C). *The first indication of carburetor icing in an aircraft with a fixed-pitch propeller is a decrease in engine rpm, which may be followed by engine roughness.* In an aircraft with a constant-speed propeller, carburetor icing is usually indicated by a decrease in manifold pressure, but no reduction in rpm. Propeller pitch is automatically adjusted to compensate for loss of power. Thus, a constant rpm is maintained. Although carburetor ice can occur during any phase of flight, it is particularly dangerous when using reduced power during a descent. Under certain conditions, carburetor ice could build unnoticed until power is added. To combat the effects of carburetor ice, engines with float-type carburetors employ a carburetor heat system. The PHAK is available here; http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviation/pilot_handbook/ It is split up into chapters because it is huge. Just chapter 6 from which the above was taken is 18+ Mbytes. Rick Girard -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx


    Message 8


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    Time: 10:23:57 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: FAA registration renewal
    From: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr@gmail.com>
    Fellow Kolbers, The Mr. Bent I sent my email to, about the re-registration vs renewal issue, forwarded my email to another FAA person. I got a response, long and convoluted, from this person, which follows my synopsis. My Synopsis: The FIRST TIME we send in a "renewal" on the new system will result in a re-registration date at the end of the month in which they receive and act on the request. Afterwards, all subsequent renewals (on time or early) will receive the full 3 three years. Their rationale for this is to redistribute the due dates more evenly across the calendar year to preclude their work from bunching up. The only reason it bunches up is because they unnecessarily (in my opinion) created these 3 month groups, in which bunches of aircraft come due for regregistration/renewal at the same time. This was not necessary. All they had to do was to divide the due dates into months instead of quarters. But because they divided into quarter groups, they caused the bunching up of their work load. So, bottom line is that this "screw the aircraft owner" reregistration vs renewal is supposed to happen only once per registration. At least that is my interpretation of the following: FAA'S RESPONSE: I work in the Aircraft Registration office (Registry) and was part of the group that put re-registration and renewal together. I've been asked to reply to your question. The use of a current date from which to count your re-registration date from was stated in the final Rulemaking and has been repeated in our supporting literature. With more than half the expected re-registration certificates already issued, no change in the present process is under consideration. I can explain why we set things up to work as they do, and perhaps try to re-frame the view regarding registration months lost due to early re-registration. Since new registration has to be issued and delivered before the old certificates expire for re-registration and renewal to work, we recognized the importance of a smooth and even work flow from the start. With re-registration expirations set to expire quarterly, if we issued re-registration certificates to expire on the third anniversary of their re-registration expiration date, we would have built quarterly bulges into our future workloads. These bulges would cause backlogs that could result in delayed delivery of future renewal registration certificates. By issuing re-registration certificates that expire three years from the month in which they are issued, we set up our future workload to fall more evenly from month to month. The other aircraft owners in your re-registration group should apply and get dates from January through April if they apply as scheduled. The real deadline to avoid grounding is April 30, so the possible spread is 3 months. A few who forget, play the game or have a problem will get dates in May or June, and some will even get dates after they expire. The renewal certificates that will be issued during future cycles are set up to expire on the same three year anniversary date. During renewal, no matter when you make your application, your new certificate will receive an expiration date of January 31. Alternate schedules may have avoided the impression that early applicants loose a few months of registration, but they would have been more difficult to communicate and execute successfully. The group benefits because a cause for future delays has been eliminated. You benefit by knowing already that you are good to go. Early application gives both of us time to recover from unforeseen errors. There were no delaying errors for us to recover from in this case, but had there been, we would have had plenty of time to fix things. The months you see as missing were not subtracted from your new registration time, they came off of your old registration certificate due to the required changes. On August 27, 2009, you were issued a certificate of registration that, unlike almost any other registration for property in the world, was good as long as you lived until you sold the aircraft, removed it permanently from service, or something happened that would cause the FAA to revoke it, all that for the all but token charge of $5.00. To keep this. aircraft owners as a group only had to keep their addresses updated, report sales, register promptly after purchasing, and tell us when the aircraft had finally left service for good. Life has too many tricks to allow this large a group to meet that standard. We expect that as many as 111,000 aircraft will drop off the register of 360,000 aircraft because they are not there to make application. Long before that you first registered, the concerns of law enforcement about aircraft use in drug smuggling and against our national security combined with the growing ability of computers to make aircraft registration data immediately available for both reference and analysis had been raising requirements for more accurate and actionable aircraft registration records. In July of 2010, the final approvals finally fell into place and the new rules went into effect for the re-registration of existing aircraft to clean up existing errors, and the renewal of Aircraft registration every third year to keep future errors from piling up. Re-registration scheduled your existing registration to end when you made application, and told you - you should apply during February, March or April of 2011. You filed promptly and now have a certificate that is good for the next three years, and your next, a renewal certificate, will be good for three years after this one expires. In short; the changes, the lost registration time, and the costs came about as part of re-registration, which we had to do so we could do our job well enough to support other parts of the government to do their jobs, big and small, as best as they can. We worked hard to find the combination of process steps that would as a group deliver the least disruption for those affected. So far, it seems things are working. Any applicant that has made a good application during their assigned three month window has been their registration certificate with time to arrive before their old certificate expired. Thank you for filing early. It gave us time to take care of you if some thing went wrong. Since it went well it gave us extra time to help others who needed assistance. I hope I made some sense out of this that is helpful to you. Feel free to give me a call if in some way you feel this was not responsive. Jerry Super Program Analyst Aircraft Registration Branch. AFS-751 405-954-7040 -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY (9G0) Kolb Slingshot SS-021 Jabiru 2200A #1574 Tennessee Prop 64x32 Truth is what stands the test of experience. - Albert Einstein Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=365741#365741


    Message 9


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    Time: 12:15:07 PM PST US
    From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
    Subject: CARB ICIingNG 912
    Gary A/Kolbers: The hot water system was from Great Britain. Supplied by a trike dealer over there through a trike dealer over here. I was concerned going back to Alaska without some source of carb heat after experiencing the idle jet icing and killing the engine less than 3,000 rpm. 385.00 dollars was a lot to pay for it, but I thought I needed it. Got it a couple days before departure north. Took a whole day of cutting and splicing T's, valves, etc. The electrical output of the 912 is already weak, but adequate to supply my electrical needs. Would not want to add to that already heavy load. No matter how close the carbs were to the engine or exhaust, an 80 to 90 mph wind would remove any heat before it could help warm the carbs. I have not found icing to be a real problem for me and my 912 engines. If it was I would install carb heat. Bing carbs are not prone to icing, but will in extreme cases. Again, not telling anyone how to do it nor am I recommending anything. Meerly sharing my own personal experience and opinion. john h mkIII Woodville, Florida From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Aman Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 8:23 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: CARB ICING 912 John, Just thought the top mounted exhaust might radiate a little.My Jabiru is the most readily icing I have experienced.It is well removed from all heat sources and really gets your attention at ANY throttle setting when it happens.If there is DEW,I got the heat on.My heat source is a conductive element attached to the throttle shaft boss on the Bing 64.It is the size of a stack of silver dollars an inch and a quarter high,attached by two screws,and externally grounded with two terminals,one for 30 watts and both for 60 I think.Super simple and effective.Never heard of the hot water system for the 912. G.Aman -----Original Message----- From: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> Sent: Sun, Feb 5, 2012 4:47 pm Subject: RE: Kolb-List: CARB ICING 912 <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> John, a com Do you think the type of exhaust you run helps keep the carb or intake air warm enough to reduce icing? G.Aman >>>>>>>>>>>>> gary Gary A/Kolbers, I doubt the type exhaust makes much difference. The carbs are isolated in front of the engine away from most engine generated heat. Any ideas I have are guesses. When I did get ice, the conditions were perfect for it. Indications were engine miss at varying degrees felt by a thumping in the airframe. Thumps and taps of different intensity, but primarily low. Didn't really loose power more than a few rpm, 50 or 100. This was at cruise power, 5,000 rpm, when John B and I experienced simultaneous icing. We were burning primarily 100LL with a little 91 octane mogas. Cycling the throttle and leaving at WOT helped clear the ice. Icing up the idle jet on approach was a complete surprise, but it took a few minutes at closed throttle to ice up. I was making a long, slow approach into Toad River in northern British Columbia. I had been loitering in the mountains east of the airstrip waiting for an isolated shower to move out of the area. Temps were in the mid-40's and moisture was hanging in the air. May be good reason to keep engine rpm over 3,000 when there is a possibility of ice. The engine ran perfect at 3,000, but died below that. john h mkIII Woodville, Florida get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution = = = =




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