Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:42 AM - Re: Re: Kolb quit revealed (Michael Welch)
2. 07:34 AM - Re: Cayo Hueso (was Wing Cradle Dimensions) (gyrodude)
3. 07:51 AM - Re: Re: Kolb quit revealed (kinne russ)
4. 07:55 AM - Re: Kolb quit revealed (racerjerry)
5. 08:51 AM - Re: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=9Cgood?= guy =?ISO-8859-1?Q?law=9D?= Private Strips (Dennis Thate)
6. 09:18 AM - Re: Re: Kolb quit revealed (vic)
7. 09:52 AM - SnF Kolb Visit on 30 Mar (beauford)
8. 10:43 AM - Re: Re: Kolb quit revealed (Pat Ladd)
9. 10:45 AM - Re: Re: Kolb quit revealed (Pat Ladd)
10. 11:20 AM - Re: Re: Kolb quit revealed (Larry Cottrell)
11. 11:30 AM - wing stall (b young)
12. 11:57 AM - Re: Re: Kolb quit revealed (Eugene Zimmerman)
13. 01:20 PM - Re: Re: Kolb quit revealed (Gary Aman)
14. 01:30 PM - kolb stall (b young)
15. 05:18 PM - Kolb quit revealed (b young)
16. 05:43 PM - Re: wing stall (Dana Hague)
17. 05:48 PM - Re: Re: Cable Tightness (John Hauck)
18. 07:21 PM - Re: SnF Kolb Visit on 30 Mar (John Hauck)
19. 07:46 PM - Re: wing stall (John Hauck)
20. 07:55 PM - Re: Re: Kolb quit revealed (John Hauck)
21. 08:01 PM - Re: Re: Kolb quit revealed (John Hauck)
22. 08:47 PM - Re: Re: Kolb quit revealed (John Hauck)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb quit revealed |
> All that experience that I have gained can be yours for what it is worth.
> Larry
Larry,
Although your advice was free, I considered it to be very valuable, and
good information. Thanks.
Mike Welch
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| Subject: | Re: Cayo Hueso (was Wing Cradle Dimensions) |
I lived for 13 years in Key West from the late sixties until the early eighties.
Until the early seventies everybody went home at Easter and returned around
Thanksgiving. Key West was a ghost town during the summer except for a small fishing
crowd from the mainland. The arrival of The cruise ships changed everything.
It just got too expensive and crowded. When multimillionaires come in and
buy up whole city blocks the blue collar types are forced out. Key West has
a very dark side that the normal tourist never sees.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369685#369685
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb quit revealed |
In re the famous/infamous "Kolb Quit", as RV 40072 says, it's nothing but a stall.
However, the Kolb has a straight wing, which means it will stall all at once;
it's flying one minute, and then at 2-3 MPH slower, the whole wing has stalled.
That's why it's been called violent, gets your attention and can be terrifying.
That's also why you should never get too near a stall unless you're just
a few feet above the ground.
Those who have flown GA aircraft are used to a much more gentle stall -- that's
because the wing has some twist, or wash-out, where the wing root stalls first
and the rest of the wing is still developing lift. The tips stall last, so the
ailerons are still effective as long as possible.
To be accurate, stalls are a function of angle of attack, not airspeed; but since
we don't have AOA indicators we have to use airspeed instead. It does work.
An experienced pilot will do it mostly by feel anyway, at the landing flare.
Russ K
On Mar 30, 2012, at 11:13 PM, Rv40072wrote:
>
> I have been following these discussions about Kolb quits for some time. In case anyone has not figured it out, Kolb quit is nothing more than a stall. The first thing to grasp is that stalls are not a function of airspeed. They are function of Angle of Attack. Depending on weight, g-load applied, air density, the airplane will stall at different airspeeds., and can in fact be stalled at any airspeed. The airplane will however, always stall at the same angle of attack. The following link will give one a good start on understanding stalls. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stall_(flight)
>
> Vic, cudos for pursuing a better understanding, but instead of focusing on what
airspeed it stalls at, focus on how it feels just before it stalls. The second
alternative would be to build a simple angle of attack indicator, then you
would have a visual warning of impending stall.
>
> Have fun, and safe flying.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369668#369668
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb quit revealed |
Well, I am certainly glad that we got rid of the hostility and returned to a friendly
technical discussion.
Vic claims that he is experiencing a difference in stall speed at different ATTITUDES.
On the surface this seems implausible, but he may be quite correct.
Pitot tube error at higher angles of attack could be causing a false (lower) airspeed
indication. I would suggest repositioning the pitot to a slightly lower
angle to confirm.
--------
Jerry King
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369688#369688
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| Subject: | Re: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=9Cgood?= guy =?ISO-8859-1?Q?law=9D?= Private |
Strips
A great resource to see what's happening politically in your area , just click
on your State,... as always get involved or don't gripe !
http://www.aopa.org/advocacy/airports/
--------
Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society. The optimist invents
the airplane and the pessimist the parachute. ~Gil Stern
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369692#369692
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb quit revealed |
Hey guys and others
No more hostility from me. I'm brewing my own beer.
I agree with everyone so far.
These recent posts are very helpful. I like the idea of 2 finger stick
control and I've read up on stalls and
ground effect on wicked pedia till my head exploded.
" The critical angle of attack in steady straight and level flight can
be attained only at low airspeed"
" Ground effect causes higher air pressure under the wing (more lift)
and lower drag"
So it still just doesn't make sense that at altitude straight and level
no stall at 35mph (unless I'm sinking and don't know it). Ground
effect should lower stall speed not be the same. Pitot could be wrong
but always seems to match gps, no wind ofcourse. VG's are'nt really
working in level flight but at high angle of attack they really kick in.
(28mph)
That's what they are supposed to do I think. The boys at Kolb got that
stall in an Extra by lowering the leading edge
of the wing. I assume to get lift from the big flat fuselage bottom.
Still stumped
Message 7
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| Subject: | SnF Kolb Visit on 30 Mar |
Paid a visit to the Kolb Command Trailer at Snf yesterday, accompanied by Ann Staub,
whose late husband Skip was a Kolb list plankholder, and Mr. George T. Alexander,
a distinguished Kolber.
We found the Kolb crew sunburned, dusty, but in good order and with high morale.
Things were just calming down after an afternoon of some concern over the whereabouts
of Brother Hauck and his distinctive Mk III, who had abruptly vanished
from the Kolb compound earlier. Travis told us that he and Bryan had spent several
hours searching along the ditch at the west end of the strip and the woods
at the other end, fearing the worst for John.
He said they had visions of him lying helpless in the mangled wreckage somewhere
on Polk County.
They were greatly relieved when Brother Hauck telephoned from some point several
hundred miles toward Alabama, saying that he had bugged out for home because
he had a tip that there might be some questionable weather on the way. Travis
said he he immediately called the FAA, Sheriff and Civil Air Patrol to stand-down
the search operations. The sense of relief was palpable in the Kolb work
spaces, but the tension was still evident... See attached pix...
Greatly Relieved beauford
FF-076
Brandon, FL
....Travis made me do it...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369697#369697
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/kolb_snf_staub_and_alexander_147.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/worried_travis_snf_187.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/kolb_snf_trailer_169.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/kolb_snf_command_post_179.jpg
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb quit revealed |
<<That's also why you should never get too near a stall unless you're just a
few feet above the ground.>>
Good grief!. If ever a statement is guaranteed to get someone killed that
is it.
A stall `a few feet ` above the ground will just allow enough room for a
nosedive straight onto mother Earth.
The idea of making a landing is to stall a few INCHES above the ground.
Cheers
Pat
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb quit revealed |
Russ?
(Stalling a few feet above the ground.)
I just realised who sent that message. I cannot believe it was you. Tell me
you didn`t mean it
Pat
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb quit revealed |
Maybe your nose is shorter than ours. You do remember that we seem to be
just a little different over here.
Larry
On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 11:41 AM, Pat Ladd <pj.ladd@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> <<That's also why you should never get too near a stall unless you're just
> a few feet above the ground.>>
>
> Good grief!. If ever a statement is guaranteed to get someone killed that
> is it.
> A stall `a few feet ` above the ground will just allow enough room for a
> nosedive straight onto mother Earth.
>
> The idea of making a landing is to stall a few INCHES above the ground.
>
> Cheers
>
> Pat
>
>
--
*If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.*
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and then at 2-3 MPH slower, the whole wing has stalled.
>>>>>>>>>
somewhere in the back of my mind, there has been a statement that because of the
dimensions of the wing cord, aspect ratio of the wing, interaction of the
wing with the fuselage, or some other reason, the wing would stall at the inboard
ends before the wing tips. I don't know how that was determined, was
it tufting and testing, or a aerodynamic text book solution to the situation.
can anyone help with clearing this up in my mind.
boyd young
mkiii
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb quit revealed |
Kinne,
Not sure what airplane you are describing but it certainly is not a
characteristic any of Homer's designs I am familiar with.
If you are terrified by the stall characteristic of the Kolb planes I'd
strongly suggest you either never park your butt in another airplane, or
have an experienced pilot take you up to altitude in most any plane
other than a kolb, and do an intentional stall to recalibrate your meter
for "terrified".
Gene Z
On Mar 31, 2012, at 10:50 AM, kinne russ wrote:
> In re the famous/infamous "Kolb Quit", as RV 40072 says, it's nothing
but a stall. However, the Kolb has a straight wing, which means it will
stall all at once; it's flying one minute, and then at 2-3 MPH slower,
the whole wing has stalled. That's why it's been called violent, gets
your attention and can be terrifying.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb quit revealed |
If you have had the opportunity to fly a Kolb model with vg's and the same
Kolb model without vg's, all the way through it's speed range including a f
ull stall,you will have formed a very definite opinion about their worth on
this designed wing.
G.AmanMK3C
-----Original Message-----
From: kinne russ <russk50@gmail.com>
Sent: Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:51 am
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb quit revealed
In re the famous/infamous "Kolb Quit", as RV 40072 says, it's nothing but a
stall. However, the Kolb has a straight wing, which means it will stall all
at
once; it's flying one minute, and then at 2-3 MPH slower, the whole wing ha
s
stalled. That's why it's been called violent, gets your attention and can b
e
terrifying. That's also why you should never get too near a stall unless yo
u're
just a few feet above the ground.
Those who have flown GA aircraft are used to a much more gentle stall -- th
at's
because the wing has some twist, or wash-out, where the wing root stalls fi
rst
and the rest of the wing is still developing lift. The tips stall last, so
the
ailerons are still effective as long as possible.
To be accurate, stalls are a function of angle of attack, not airspeed; but
since we don't have AOA indicators we have to use airspeed instead. It does
work.
An experienced pilot will do it mostly by feel anyway, at the landing flare
.
Russ K
On Mar 30, 2012, at 11:13 PM, Rv40072wrote:
>
> I have been following these discussions about Kolb quits for some time.
In
case anyone has not figured it out, Kolb quit is nothing more than a stall.
The
first thing to grasp is that stalls are not a function of airspeed. They ar
e
function of Angle of Attack. Depending on weight, g-load applied, air dens
ity,
the airplane will stall at different airspeeds., and can in fact be stalled
at
any airspeed. The airplane will however, always stall at the same angle of
attack. The following link will give one a good start on understanding stal
ls.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stall_(flight)
>
> Vic, cudos for pursuing a better understanding, but instead of focusing o
n
what airspeed it stalls at, focus on how it feels just before it stalls. T
he
second alternative would be to build a simple angle of attack indicator, th
en
you would have a visual warning of impending stall.
>
> Have fun, and safe flying.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369668#369668
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 14
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If you are terrified by the stall characteristic of the Kolb planes I'd strongly
suggest you either never park your butt in another airplane, or have an experienced
pilot take you up to altitude in most any plane other than a kolb, and
do an intentional stall to recalibrate your meter for "terrified".
Gene Z
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
not terified here,,,, durring flitght testing, i went to altitude and put the
mk in to a deep stall and spin... the first time i lost about 1000 ft in
3 full turns. and the second time i tightened it up a bit and only lost (as i
remember) 700 to 800 ft. i was impressed with how easy it was to break the
spin. in the c 150 i did my spin training in, i had to relax the back pressure
and apply opposite rudder, in the mk III only had to relax pressure on
the stick and rudder and it fell out of the spin almost instantly.
boyd y
mk iii
700 hours plus.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Kolb quit revealed |
ok folks,,,,, I had time this afternoon to do some research,,,, I
found this on the Kolb web sight, frequently asked questions page.
http://www.kolbaircraft.com/faqs.htm I should have done the search
before I posted the last question.
I don't know how this was determined... maybe if Dennis Souder is
around maybe he could comment.
anyway if the statement by Kolb is correct the entire wing wont stall at
once.
boyd young
mkii
utah
quote
"It does not look like there is any twist in your wings, are you sure
that is okay?
You are correct. Our wings are completely flat on the bottom. Twist is
used to ensure that the root of the wing will stall before the wing tip.
If the wing tip were to stall first, the airplane would be very
dangerous to fly. Our wings are low aspect ratio which means they do not
have a very long span for their cord; low aspect ratio wings have very
good stall characteristics, the root will stall before the wing tips do.
In addition, the rectangular plan form that we use is less prone to tip
stalling than a tapered wing. So, for our design wings, twist is totally
unnecessary, plus it makes building the wings much easier." end quote
Message 16
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A straight rectangular wing, though somewhat less efficient from an induced
drag standpoint than a tapered or elliptical wing, still has a more or less
elliptical lift distribution. This means that the tips are more lightly
loaded than the tips... due to tip effects the local AOA is a bit less, so
the root tends to stall first. This is why, for example, the Taylorcraft
(which uses the supposedly nasty sharp stalling 23012 airfoil) actually has
a rather benign stall. Kolbs, too, have a rather sharp leading edge (sharp
leading edge usually means abrupt stall), but because the wing doesn't
stall all at once it's not that bad.
The so-called "Kolb quit" is, I suspect, more a function of the planes low
mass, so it slows up rapidly as it stalls. Even though many pilots have
bent their Kolbs by flaring a bit too high, the center still stalls first
and few (as far as I've heard) have had a really bad tipstall related crash
while landing.
-Dana
At 02:26 PM 3/31/2012, b young wrote:
>
>and then at 2-3 MPH slower, the whole wing has stalled.
> >>>>>>>>>
>
>somewhere in the back of my mind, there has been a statement that because
>of the dimensions of the wing cord, aspect ratio of the
>wing, interaction of the wing with the fuselage, or some other reason,
>the wing would stall at the inboard ends before the wing tips. I don't
>know how that was determined, was it tufting and testing, or a
>aerodynamic text book solution to the situation.
>
>can anyone help with clearing this up in my mind.
--
Money does not buy happiness. But poverty really sucks.
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Cable Tightness |
Upon checking further there was only one thread holding the turnbuckle at
the cable end. One thread is not much to be flying around with. Needless to
say my thumper skipped a few.
David d.
Folks:
There is a lot to buying an airplane someone else built.
This is the first time I have heard of the turn buckle problem. One
thread!!! That is very frightening.
What else is there that you can't see when you buy and fly another's Kolb?
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 18
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| Subject: | SnF Kolb Visit on 30 Mar |
They were greatly relieved when Brother Hauck telephoned from some point
several hundred miles toward Alabama, saying that he had bugged out for home
because he had a tip that there might be some questionable weather on the
way. Travis said he he immediately called the FAA, Sheriff and Civil Air
Patrol to stand-down the search operations. The sense of relief was
palpable in the Kolb work spaces, but the tension was still evident... See
attached pix...
Greatly Relieved beauford
FF-076
Brandon, FL
....Travis made me do it...
Mother Nature won again. I got to spend the night on the couch in the FBO
at Headland Airport, Alabama.
The MKIII did well, as usual. Logged about 30 minutes of "rain time" before
I finally was able to weave my way around the thunderstorm cells and into
Headland. Headland was about 15 miles south of my route of flight. Folks
there were nice and let me stay in the FBO. Another took me to lunch today.
Made some new friends. Look forward to landing at Headland again sometime,
but not to spend the night.
With Sun and Fun behind us, it is time to start thinking about the flight to
Oregon and the Rock House Flyin the last week in June.
I have two carb boots that are starting to separate. First clue was black
streaks on the top of each intake manifold on the 912ULS. Engine is about 5
years old and 561.2 hours.
Sorry I missed you all.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 19
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somewhere in the back of my mind, there has been a statement that because
of the dimensions of the wing cord, aspect ratio of the wing, interaction
of the wing with the fuselage, or some other reason, the wing would stall at
the inboard ends before the wing tips. I don't know how that was
determined, was it tufting and testing, or a aerodynamic text book solution
to the situation.
can anyone help with clearing this up in my mind.
boyd young
mkiii
Boyd/Kolbers:
The Kolb wing, all models, stalls inboard first. One of the reasons we can
put them into a very controllable mush/stall with roll and pitch control.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb quit revealed |
Not sure what airplane you are describing but it certainly is not a
characteristic any of Homer's designs I am familiar with.
Gene Z
Gene Z/Folks:
Don't think Russ K has near as much time in a Kolb as Gene Z does.
To me, a Kolb, all models, stall just the opposite of a Cessna 152, etc.
Lots of Kolb pilots get in trouble because of this gentle stall
characteristic. They get themselves into a mush/stall, the aircraft remains
in a level attitude, and the pilot does not realize he is stalling. That's
a pretty gentle stall in my book.
In ground effect, the Kolb stalls and drops, just like it does at altitude.
Only difference is the Kolb smacks the ground in ground effect.
Stalling a Kolb from a couple feet in ground effect will not put the nose in
the ground and will probably not kill you, at least in the US. Maybe in GB.
;-)
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb quit revealed |
If you have had the opportunity to fly a Kolb model with vg's and the same
Kolb model without vg's, all the way through its speed range including a
full stall, you will have formed a very definite opinion about their worth
on this designed wing.
G.AmanMK3C
I have been fortunate to have done that. The difference with and without
VG's was negligible.
There was an improvement in softening a full stall three point landing if I
initiated one a little high.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb quit revealed |
I would suggest repositioning the pitot to a slightly lower angle to
confirm.
--------
Jerry King
Mr. Steve Whitman shared with me at Sun and Fun 1993, to cut my pitot tube
at a 45 degree angle to improve ASI accuracy at high angles of attack. This
came out during a discussion of how to improve accuracy of static pressure.
I asked him, initially, what type static system he used in his aircraft. He
told me he used nothing. His static port was the static port on the rear of
the ASI. Told me the stall speed was going to indicate the same whether
accurate or not.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
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