---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 05/25/12: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:38 AM - Re: MKIII accident back in March (Pat Ladd) 2. 01:57 AM - Re: MKIII accident back in March (Pat Ladd) 3. 04:43 AM - Re: MKIII accident back in March (Ellery Batchelder Jr) 4. 05:03 AM - Re: MKIII accident back in March (Gary Aman) 5. 05:49 AM - Re: MKIII accident back in March (John Hauck) 6. 05:58 AM - Re: MKIII accident back in March (John Hauck) 7. 06:11 AM - Re: Test Flight (John Hauck) 8. 07:06 AM - Re: Re: Test Flight (Michael Welch) 9. 10:10 AM - Re: Test Flight (Thom Riddle) 10. 11:34 AM - Re: MKIII accident back in March (kinne russ) 11. 02:11 PM - Re: MKIII accident back in March (Dana Hague) 12. 02:14 PM - Re: MKIII accident back in March (The Kuffels) 13. 02:14 PM - Twinstar MK II W+ B solved (Lee Morgan) 14. 03:48 PM - Re: MKIII accident back in March (Pat Ladd) 15. 03:54 PM - Re: MKIII accident back in March (Pat Ladd) 16. 04:20 PM - Re: MKIII accident back in March (pcking) 17. 04:30 PM - Re: MKIII accident back in March (kinne russ) 18. 07:46 PM - Re: Cheap covering job (WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:38:23 AM PST US From: "Pat Ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: MKIII accident back in March I imagine he was wishing he had bought a Rotax 912 instead of a Jabiru.>> Naughty. Naughty!. My solicitors will commence the libel suite forthwith. You may have to defend your statement in court. Cheers Pat Xtra with Jabi (but you can buy it if you like) ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:57:15 AM PST US From: "Pat Ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: MKIII accident back in March The pilot deployed the airplane's parachute, and the airplane settled into the trees. The question is what was he doing so low in FINAL APPROACH that he couldn't make the runway?>> Same question the other way round. How far out was he if he had enough height to deploy and develop the parachute and still land in atree. Anyone know how much height loss there is between pulling the chute and it becoming useful? I remember in my gliding days watching a fairly new pilot who had got too low trying to make it back to the field. We watched with interest as he sank and it was obvious that he was not going to make it over the surrounding tall hedge. Suddenly the guy dived out of sight and we decided that he had landed in the next field. The tension relaxed and then the guy reappeared just clearing the hedge before plopping down very untidily on the airfield. All the theory and sums say that is the wrong thing to do. You cannot regain height that you have thrown away otherwise you would have a perpetual motion machine. Nevertheless in this case it worked. Stranger things, Horatio..... Pat -Dana ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:43:35 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: MKIII accident back in March From: Ellery Batchelder Jr That's not even fair to say things like that about an engine you don't use , It could be the mechanic/Owner self induced issue How would You like it if someone else said something like that when JW went in I'm not trying to start a rant here just looking at it from two perspective s Ellery Batchelder Jr. -----Original Message----- From: John Hauck Sent: Thu, May 24, 2012 8:48 pm Subject: RE: Kolb-List: MKIII accident back in March The question is what was he doing so low in FINAL APPROACH that he couldn't ake the runway? -Dana olks: I imagine he was wishing he had bought a Rotax 912 instead of a Jabiru. john h kIII itus, Alabama -======================== -= - The Kolb-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List - -======================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:03:49 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: MKIII accident back in March From: Gary Aman Cold John,real cold -----Original Message----- From: John Hauck Sent: Thu, May 24, 2012 8:48 pm Subject: RE: Kolb-List: MKIII accident back in March The question is what was he doing so low in FINAL APPROACH that he couldn' t make the runway? -Dana Folks: I imagine he was wishing he had bought a Rotax 912 instead of a Jabiru. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:49:54 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: MKIII accident back in March That's not even fair to say things like that about an engine you don't use, It could be the mechanic/Owner self induced issue How would You like it ifsomeone else said something like that when JW went in I'm not trying to start a rant here just looking at it from two perspectives Ellery Batchelder Jr. Lighten up a little, Ellery. My comment was made in jest. My good friend John Williamson was killed 4 years ago today. RIP, Brother. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:58:15 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: MKIII accident back in March On Behalf Of Gary Aman Cold John,real cold Hopefully, you all will recover from my small attempt at humor. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:11:10 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Kolb-List: RE: Test Flight " Shut down the engine and discovered the fuel pump is leaking and will have to be replaced " Folks: Should have indicated the fuel pump that failed on the 912ULS is the engine driven pump. Nothing more than a Pierberg automotive pump, but Lockwood wants 167.84 for the pump and nearly 45.00 for the gaskets and spacer. Maybe I should have bought a Jabiru. ;-) john h mkIII - 3,131.1 hours 912ULS - 562.6 hours ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:06:34 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: RE: Test Flight From: Michael Welch > > "Maybe I should have bought a Jabiru". ;-) > > john h > mkIII - 3,131.1 hours > 912ULS - 562.6 hours Now, THAT is humor!! Mike ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:10:20 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Test Flight From: "Thom Riddle" Most of the parts on a Jabiru that need periodic replacement, are auto parts. Examples: coils (mags) distributors/caps/rotors starter valves and seats pistons rings pushrods connecting rods (I think) mechanical fuel pump are automotive parts whose auto brand and p/n are known and published. The cost (including labor) of a top overhaul - at 1,000 hour intervals, for the 4 cylinder Jabiru typically is about $1,000 (~60% of which is labor). The major overhaul (2,000 hours) is about double that. The 120hp 6 cylinder is about 50% higher. Yes, there have been quite a number of Jabiru engines reaching TBO with proper and regular maintenance, so the TBO numbers are realistic if maintained and operated properly. -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY (9G0) Kolb Slingshot SS-021 Jabiru 2200A #1574 Tennessee Prop 64x32 Truth is what stands the test of experience. - Albert Einstein Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373906#373906 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:34:40 AM PST US From: kinne russ Subject: Re: Kolb-List: MKIII accident back in March Pat Could it not have been that the glider pilot dived, got into ground-effect to get more speed with less drag; then popped up over the hedge? Risky and I'm sure unnerving but it could work. Maybe did? Russ On May 25, 2012, at 4:56 AM, Pat Ladd wrote: > The pilot deployed the airplane's parachute, and the airplane settled into the trees. > The question is what was he doing so low in FINAL APPROACH that he couldn't make the runway?>> > > Same question the other way round. How far out was he if he had enough height to deploy and develop the parachute and still land in atree. Anyone know how much height loss there is between pulling the chute and it becoming useful? > > I remember in my gliding days watching a fairly new pilot who had got too low trying to make it back to the field. We watched with interest as he sank and it was obvious that he was not going to make it over the surrounding tall hedge. Suddenly the guy dived out of sight and we decided that he had landed in the next field. > The tension relaxed and then the guy reappeared just clearing the hedge before plopping down very untidily on the airfield. > All the theory and sums say that is the wrong thing to do. You cannot regain height that you have thrown away otherwise you would have a perpetual motion machine. Nevertheless in this case it worked. > Stranger things, Horatio..... > > Pat > > > -Dana > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:11:34 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: MKIII accident back in March Actually a not uncommon glider technique... come in low and fast. A glider can glide a long way at ground level if it comes in fast, slowly bleeding speed off, and if timed right, still have enough speed [kinetic energy] to convert back into altitude [potential energy]. Not even particularly risky if you know what you're doing. I used to do something similar in my T-Craft, fly low and fast over the water just offshore. knowing that if my engine quit I had enough speed to zoom up and have enough altitude to shoot a landing on the beach. Of course it doesn't work in a slow draggy airplane like a Kolb... -Dana At 02:33 PM 5/25/2012, kinne russ wrote: >Pat >Could it not have been that the glider pilot dived, got into ground-effect >to get more speed with less drag; then popped up over the hedge? >Risky and I'm sure unnerving but it could work. Maybe did? >Russ > >On May 25, 2012, at 4:56 AM, Pat Ladd wrote: > >>The pilot deployed the airplane's parachute, and the airplane settled >>into the trees. >>The question is what was he doing so low in FINAL APPROACH that he >>couldn't make the runway?>> >> >>Same question the other way round. How far out was he if he had enough >>height to deploy and develop the parachute and still land in atree. >>Anyone know how much height loss there is between pulling the chute and >>it becoming useful? >> >>I remember in my gliding days watching a fairly new pilot who had got too >>low trying to make it back to the field. We watched with interest as he >>sank and it was obvious that he was not going to make it over the >>surrounding tall hedge. Suddenly the guy dived out of sight and we >>decided that he had landed in the next field. >>The tension relaxed and then the guy reappeared just clearing the hedge >>before plopping down very untidily on the airfield. >>All the theory and sums say that is the wrong thing to do. You cannot >>regain height that you have thrown away otherwise you would have a >>perpetual motion machine. Nevertheless in this case it worked. >>Stranger things, Horatio..... >> >>Pat >> >> >>-Dana >> >> >> >>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List >>href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >>href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> > > > >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List >http://www.matronics.com/contribution > -- Some people have a large circle of friends, while others have only friends that they like. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:14:11 PM PST US From: "The Kuffels" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: MKIII accident back in March << Could it not have been that the glider pilot dived, got into ground-effect to get more speed with less drag; then popped up over the hedge? >> This is exactly the maneuver described by a CFI-G many years ago in Soaring magazine, I believe. Tom Kuffel Do not archive. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:14:14 PM PST US From: "Lee Morgan" Subject: Kolb-List: Twinstar MK II W+ B solved I finally figured out why my weight and balance was not coming out correct. I am ashamed to say that I happened to notice a bulge in the tarp that was over my engine and that bulge turned out to be about two gallons of water hanging behind the wing. This was making my calculations show a slightly tail heavy plane, now without the water, I come in at 35% with one person and at 25% with two people. I could still use something from a Twinstar manual that states that this is the correct range in case I am asked where I got the numbers from for my airworthiness certificate. thanks, Lee.. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:48:38 PM PST US From: "Pat Ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: MKIII accident back in March got into ground-effect to get more speed with less drag;.. Could be. it was certainly accidental. I don`t think any of us at that stage would have dreamed up an explanation like that. Pat ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:54:59 PM PST US From: "Pat Ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: MKIII accident back in March Actually a not uncommon glider technique... come in low and fast.>> Yep, I have done it myself in a 19 metre Jantar full of water. If you pull up and dump the ballast at the same time it is most impressive. I don`t think it would have worked in a Grunau when the guy was crawling in at minimum sink. I think the fact that he got away with it surprised the pilot as much as it did the watchiing club members who thought that they were going to have to go on a long walking retrieve . Could happen I suppose. Pat ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:20:15 PM PST US From: "pcking" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: MKIII accident back in March Soaring magazine carried an article many moons ago that proved that flying at max l/d, adjusted for headwind gave the pilot the longest glide. Lower efficiency at higher speed, even in ground effect, did not result in more distance. That's with a high efficiency sailplane wing. The Kolb wing loses efficiency faster at speed. The struts generate more drag. It's not going to work. ----- Original Message ----- From: Pat Ladd To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 6:54 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: MKIII accident back in March Actually a not uncommon glider technique... come in low and fast.>> Yep, I have done it myself in a 19 metre Jantar full of water. If you pull up and dump the ballast at the same time it is most impressive. I don`t think it would have worked in a Grunau when the guy was crawling in at minimum sink. I think the fact that he got away with it surprised the pilot as much as it did the watchiing club members who thought that they were going to have to go on a long walking retrieve . Could happen I suppose. Pat ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:30:46 PM PST US From: kinne russ Subject: Re: Kolb-List: MKIII accident back in March Dana Good point. The owner's manual for the Beech Staggerwing says if the engine quits, immediately zoom up 500'! Only possible in a VERY clean and fast aircraft. Russ On May 25, 2012, at 5:04 PM, Dana Hague wrote: > Actually a not uncommon glider technique... come in low and fast. A glider can glide a long way at ground level if it comes in fast, slowly bleeding speed off, and if timed right, still have enough speed [kinetic energy] to convert back into altitude [potential energy]. Not even particularly risky if you know what you're doing. > > I used to do something similar in my T-Craft, fly low and fast over the water just offshore. knowing that if my engine quit I had enough speed to zoom up and have enough altitude to shoot a landing on the beach. Of course it doesn't work in a slow draggy airplane like a Kolb... > > -Dana > > > > At 02:33 PM 5/25/2012, kinne russ wrote: >> Pat >> Could it not have been that the glider pilot dived, got into ground-effect to get more speed with less drag; then popped up over the hedge? >> Risky and I'm sure unnerving but it could work. Maybe did? >> Russ >> >> On May 25, 2012, at 4:56 AM, Pat Ladd wrote: >> >>> The pilot deployed the airplane's parachute, and the airplane settled into the trees. >>> The question is what was he doing so low in FINAL APPROACH that he couldn't make the runway?>> >>> >>> Same question the other way round. How far out was he if he had enough height to deploy and develop the parachute and still land in atree. Anyone know how much height loss there is between pulling the chute and it becoming useful? >>> >>> I remember in my gliding days watching a fairly new pilot who had got too low trying to make it back to the field. We watched with interest as he sank and it was obvious that he was not going to make it over the surrounding tall hedge. Suddenly the guy dived out of sight and we decided that he had landed in the next field. >>> The tension relaxed and then the guy reappeared just clearing the hedge before plopping down very untidily on the airfield. >>> All the theory and sums say that is the wrong thing to do. You cannot regain height that you have thrown away otherwise you would have a perpetual motion machine. Nevertheless in this case it worked. >>> Stranger things, Horatio..... >>> >>> Pat >>> >>> >>> -Dana >>> >>> >>> >>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics .com/Navigator?Kolb-List >>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/co ntribution >>> >> >> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List >> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - >> http://forums.matronics.com >> - List Contribution Web Site - >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> > > -- > Some people have a large circle of friends, while others have only friends that they like. > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:46:49 PM PST US From: WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Cheap covering job Jeremy, I know a fella that uses regular hardware store 'Contact Cement' to glue the fabric on his homebuilt. Works well for him. I used Poly Tak on my Kolb. Bill Varnes Original Kolb FireStar Audubon NJ Do Not Archive In a message dated 5/24/2012 5:14:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 1planeguy@kilocharlie.us writes: What would work good for a glue to attach this to wood? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.