Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:11 PM - Re: Re: glide ratio (Rick Neilsen)
2. 01:33 PM - Dead stick compared to engine at idle (Larry Cottrell)
3. 06:34 PM - Glide ratio (Mark Shimei)
4. 08:18 PM - Glide ratio (David Kulp)
5. 08:52 PM - The spot that doesn't move (Richard Girard)
6. 08:53 PM - Re: Glide ratio (Larry Cottrell)
Message 1
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Hi all.
I couldn't resist my $.02 worth.
I had a plan for a engine out so that when it happened I just fell into the
plan. My theory was that unpowered flight in my MKIIIC with flaps raised
would be just like one notch of flaps with just a touch of power. It turned
out that it was very close. My normal approach for landing is one notch of
flaps and maybe 5-10% power. The nice thing is that when the unexpected
happens you don't have to dig out the calculator or anything else. Your
glide ratio will be about the same as you practice with every landing.
To fine tune your landing spot grab your flaps and lower them as necessary
to hit the best landing spot. It might be good to practice dropping
and raising flaps on approach. Just remember add flaps, drop the nose,
reduce flaps, raise the nose. Do this a few times while keeping your
airspeed the same. When you get all set up for touch down raise the flaps.
Your round out will again be the same as you have always done with few
exceptions. With flaps up you will be able to get the tail wheel down
first. This worked out real well for me because I was landing in a bean
field and the tail wheel acted like a aircraft carrier tail hook. I rolled
about 5 foot without even a nose over.
This may not work as well for everyone but it did for me. Also worth what
you paid for it
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 8:03 PM, Jimmy Young <jdy100@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> To Arty, Thom,and all other Kolb lovers,
>
> I need to apologize for my"chat-room fodder" comment. It was out of place
> and inaccurate relative to the discussion taking place. I was still waiting
> on the coffee to brew, & I can get a little short under those conditions.
>
> I'm simply more of a "feel" flyer when it comes to awareness of the
> situation at hand. I know what altitude I'm at, what my airspeed is, how
> the engine temps are doing, and how much fuel I've got on board at any
> point of any flight. But when it comes to making mental notes of where I
> can put down in an emergency, I always have an off-field option spot picked
> out as we all should. I could not accurately tell you how far away it is
> from me in feet, but I know instinctively I can make it without knowing
> what my glide slope is or running calculations in my head.
>
> I haven't been flying long, a little over 5 years now & 95% of that was in
> the Firestar. I made some stupid choices early on that by the grace of God
> I got away with it, but learned from the events enough to not do it again.
> I have zero GA experience short of flying in a Cessna 140 & 150
> occasionally, so I can see why I discount glide slope numbers. Let's just
> all agree that flying safe & smart is the way to fly a long time, and we
> should do it in the way that works best for each of us.
>
> Safe flying,
>
> Jimmy Young
> still a lucky guy who gets to fly a Kolb, just not the owner anymore.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384338#384338
>
>
Message 2
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Dead stick compared to engine at idle |
Yesterday afternoon turned out to be stable enough that I could actually
put to the test the idea of which gives you a longer glide, engine on or
off. The test was performed at 4000 feet, temp was low 80's, wind was
varible, but generally almost nothing. My test consisted of either cutting
the engine or power at the same "Rock Jack" at 4400 feet altitude. That
gave me about 3000 feet of runway in front of me.
My first test was engine off. I established the 4400 ft altitude and cut
the mags at the Rock Jack, established 50 MPH descent. I found that the end
of the runway was about where I was going to end up. I did make sure that I
put it on the ground before the fence. The glide ratio worked out to be 7.5
to 1
I took it back up again and repeated the same test, only I just throttled
back to 2000 RPM's again established 50 MPH descent. When I reached the end
of the runway, I was still about 75 feet high. That glide ratio is for all
intents and purposes was 8 to 1 .
I then repeated the test at 4200 ft altitude. Engine on produced at least
50 feet further.
Now it is a given that no two Kolbs fly alike, especially different models.
The difference in altitude will also play into the equation. However this
is what works for me and mine. Yours may vary, but I am happy and
vindicated. :-).
Larry
--
*If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.*
Message 3
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Well...I had to try it again.actually,for the 38th time....
Ultrastar,Cuyuna,3 blade ultraprop. 2000',plane was set up to glide
engine off at 2100' and clock started as I passed 2000'. 5 minutes,30
seconds later I touched down,didnt hit any thermals that I could feel. The
gps odometer showed 3.1 miles,about 16000'.....that makes 8 to 1 glide.
I wouldnt use that for any emergency,only the amount of time I have after
the fire goes out,making the altimeter a time to impact device. My glide
speed is 35mph,and with the 12mph headwind that day,I wouldnt go very far
foward. Depending on the rpm, the windmilling prop can cut that time by a
third.
If there are those who dont think a windmilling prop slows a plane,then how
does a gyrocopter fly? Stop the blade,see how fast it goes.....down.
If your idle speed=pitch speed at your glide ratio,then the spinning prop
will not make much difference. The US isnt a good glider(I have thermalled
it at idle for 15 minutes),So my glide or thermal speed must have been a
little slower than the pitch speed.
The Firefly as bad or worse than a brick when the throttle is below
3000rpm. Falls from the sky.
I have an r/c plane which is like the the kolb in flying characteristics,
at lower rpms you can spot land it,unless I flare too high. then its
re-bend the landing gear back again. Mark
Message 4
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Kolbers,
In all this discussion about glide ratios and trying to figure if you
can make it to an emergency landing site, there's a technique I was
taught and had to use shortly after I bought my US in about '92 when I
was brand new at flying. I was flying merrily about when suddenly the
Cuyuna shut down. I could hear the engine turning and thought maybe the
throttle cable disconnected and the engine was idling, so the first
thing i did was to move the throttle on and off. Doing so I could hear
the carb opening and closing - you know, that pulsing, sucking sound you
hear on your hot rod when you punch the throttle with the air cleaner
off - but no power. Knowing the engine was off, the next thing I did
was look for a site to land. Spotted the sports fields at Pennfield
Middle School and turned toward it.
I didn't know how far away it was (about 2.5 miles), or how high I was
(no altimeter), but I knew I could make it there without doing a single
calculation. When you fly, anything that passes under the nose of your
aircraft you will fly beyond, and any point that remains above the nose
of your aircraft you will land before. Again, I was just a couple of
months into flying, but I simply lowered the nose so that the sports
fields stayed at the point neither above nor below the nose, and my
speed was simply a result of the angle of descent necessary to reach the
ground at the point I was aiming for.
I'm sure most of you realize this, so isn't this the best way to know if
you can make it to an emergency site or not? Doesn't matter about
density altitude, head wind, tail wind, whatever, it'll get you there.
If I'd had the opportunity to practice dead sticks I'd probably would
have been able to pitch up a bit, fly more slowly and make it another
mile or so to the strip where I hangared the US, but another thing I was
taught as a newbie was when you pick your spot, don't change your mind
unless you see a big reason to do so, such as a fence, etc. So at that
chapter in my flying my only concern was trying to land safely - period.
Comments?
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
FireFly 11DMK
On 10/2/2012 9:34 PM, Mark Shimei wrote:
> Well...I had to try it again.actually,for the 38th time....
> Ultrastar,Cuyuna,3 blade ultraprop. 2000',plane was set up to glide
> engine off at 2100' and clock started as I passed 2000'. 5 minutes,30
> seconds later I touched down,didnt hit any thermals that I could
> feel. The gps odometer showed 3.1 miles,about 16000'.....that makes 8
> to 1 glide.
>
> I wouldnt use that for any emergency,only the amount of time I have
> after the fire goes out,making the altimeter a time to impact device.
> My glide speed is 35mph,and with the 12mph headwind that day,I wouldnt
> go very far foward. Depending on the rpm, the windmilling prop can cut
> that time by a third.
>
> If there are those who dont think a windmilling prop slows a
> plane,then how does a gyrocopter fly? Stop the blade,see how fast it
> goes.....down.
>
> If your idle speed=pitch speed at your glide ratio,then the spinning
> prop will not make much difference. The US isnt a good glider(I have
> thermalled it at idle for 15 minutes),So my glide or thermal speed
> must have been a little slower than the pitch speed.
>
> The Firefly as bad or worse than a brick when the throttle is below
> 3000rpm. Falls from the sky.
>
> I have an r/c plane which is like the the kolb in flying
> characteristics, at lower rpms you can spot land it,unless I flare too
> high. then its re-bend the landing gear back again. Mark
> *
>
>
> *
Message 5
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | The spot that doesn't move |
While everything a pilot knows about his airplane is useful in an abstract
way, glide ratio is practically useless. For instance, when I recounted my
engine out landing at Augusta, KS, Pat Ladd pointed out that the numbers
didn't add up. I, as Pat pointed out, should have been able to glide quite
a bit further than I did. Why didn't I? Because I was gliding into a 5 to 7
knot breeze from the west northwest and the runway, and hence the downwind
leg of the pattern, lies directly north and south.
And this is why knowing your aircraft's glide ratio is a useless piece of
knowledge, because the wind usually blows.
So, if glide ratio is useless, what is useful?
Being able to recognize at a glance what you can reach at that moment, in
the conditions at that moment, that's what's useful.
For the next several flights, do this. Climb to 3 or 4,000 feet AGL, cut
power to idle, and set up a glide at 50 mph. Now look at the objects on the
ground out in front of you. Some will appear to be moving toward you, while
others, further out, will appear to moving toward the horizon, away from
you. In between are objects that appear to be stationary. Those stationary
objects are the farthest you can reach at that moment. Do this when flying
into the wind, across the wind, and with the wind and you'll notice that
the angle from you to those stationary objects changes. With the wind, the
angle is flatter. Into the wind, the angle steepens. Across the wind the
angle will be somewhere in between. The actual angle is unimportant. Being
able to recognize that line of stationary objects IS what's important and
the faster you can do it the more time you have to pick a landing spot
short of that line should the need arise.
Rick Girard
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
Message 6
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
>
> If there are those who dont think a windmilling prop slows a plane,then
> how does a gyrocopter fly? Stop the blade,see how fast it goes.....down.
>
> I always thought that the blades on a Gyro were there to perform the same
function as a wing? I am also puzzled by a prop on a kolb that will
windmill with the engine turned off. I could never get any of mine,
447,503, HKS to ever do any more than an ocassional rotation at the speeds
that I was traveling with the engine off. Perhaps you should think about
checking the compression on your engine.
I remember once of trying a restart by diving, but could never manage it.
Larry
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|