---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 10/02/12: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:11 PM - Re: Re: glide ratio (Rick Neilsen) 2. 01:33 PM - Dead stick compared to engine at idle (Larry Cottrell) 3. 06:34 PM - Glide ratio (Mark Shimei) 4. 08:18 PM - Glide ratio (David Kulp) 5. 08:52 PM - The spot that doesn't move (Richard Girard) 6. 08:53 PM - Re: Glide ratio (Larry Cottrell) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:11:10 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: glide ratio From: Rick Neilsen Hi all. I couldn't resist my $.02 worth. I had a plan for a engine out so that when it happened I just fell into the plan. My theory was that unpowered flight in my MKIIIC with flaps raised would be just like one notch of flaps with just a touch of power. It turned out that it was very close. My normal approach for landing is one notch of flaps and maybe 5-10% power. The nice thing is that when the unexpected happens you don't have to dig out the calculator or anything else. Your glide ratio will be about the same as you practice with every landing. To fine tune your landing spot grab your flaps and lower them as necessary to hit the best landing spot. It might be good to practice dropping and raising flaps on approach. Just remember add flaps, drop the nose, reduce flaps, raise the nose. Do this a few times while keeping your airspeed the same. When you get all set up for touch down raise the flaps. Your round out will again be the same as you have always done with few exceptions. With flaps up you will be able to get the tail wheel down first. This worked out real well for me because I was landing in a bean field and the tail wheel acted like a aircraft carrier tail hook. I rolled about 5 foot without even a nose over. This may not work as well for everyone but it did for me. Also worth what you paid for it Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 8:03 PM, Jimmy Young wrote: > > To Arty, Thom,and all other Kolb lovers, > > I need to apologize for my"chat-room fodder" comment. It was out of place > and inaccurate relative to the discussion taking place. I was still waiting > on the coffee to brew, & I can get a little short under those conditions. > > I'm simply more of a "feel" flyer when it comes to awareness of the > situation at hand. I know what altitude I'm at, what my airspeed is, how > the engine temps are doing, and how much fuel I've got on board at any > point of any flight. But when it comes to making mental notes of where I > can put down in an emergency, I always have an off-field option spot picked > out as we all should. I could not accurately tell you how far away it is > from me in feet, but I know instinctively I can make it without knowing > what my glide slope is or running calculations in my head. > > I haven't been flying long, a little over 5 years now & 95% of that was in > the Firestar. I made some stupid choices early on that by the grace of God > I got away with it, but learned from the events enough to not do it again. > I have zero GA experience short of flying in a Cessna 140 & 150 > occasionally, so I can see why I discount glide slope numbers. Let's just > all agree that flying safe & smart is the way to fly a long time, and we > should do it in the way that works best for each of us. > > Safe flying, > > Jimmy Young > still a lucky guy who gets to fly a Kolb, just not the owner anymore. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384338#384338 > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:33:31 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Dead stick compared to engine at idle From: Larry Cottrell Yesterday afternoon turned out to be stable enough that I could actually put to the test the idea of which gives you a longer glide, engine on or off. The test was performed at 4000 feet, temp was low 80's, wind was varible, but generally almost nothing. My test consisted of either cutting the engine or power at the same "Rock Jack" at 4400 feet altitude. That gave me about 3000 feet of runway in front of me. My first test was engine off. I established the 4400 ft altitude and cut the mags at the Rock Jack, established 50 MPH descent. I found that the end of the runway was about where I was going to end up. I did make sure that I put it on the ground before the fence. The glide ratio worked out to be 7.5 to 1 I took it back up again and repeated the same test, only I just throttled back to 2000 RPM's again established 50 MPH descent. When I reached the end of the runway, I was still about 75 feet high. That glide ratio is for all intents and purposes was 8 to 1 . I then repeated the test at 4200 ft altitude. Engine on produced at least 50 feet further. Now it is a given that no two Kolbs fly alike, especially different models. The difference in altitude will also play into the equation. However this is what works for me and mine. Yours may vary, but I am happy and vindicated. :-). Larry -- *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:34:30 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Glide ratio From: Mark Shimei Well...I had to try it again.actually,for the 38th time.... Ultrastar,Cuyuna,3 blade ultraprop. 2000',plane was set up to glide engine off at 2100' and clock started as I passed 2000'. 5 minutes,30 seconds later I touched down,didnt hit any thermals that I could feel. The gps odometer showed 3.1 miles,about 16000'.....that makes 8 to 1 glide. I wouldnt use that for any emergency,only the amount of time I have after the fire goes out,making the altimeter a time to impact device. My glide speed is 35mph,and with the 12mph headwind that day,I wouldnt go very far foward. Depending on the rpm, the windmilling prop can cut that time by a third. If there are those who dont think a windmilling prop slows a plane,then how does a gyrocopter fly? Stop the blade,see how fast it goes.....down. If your idle speed=pitch speed at your glide ratio,then the spinning prop will not make much difference. The US isnt a good glider(I have thermalled it at idle for 15 minutes),So my glide or thermal speed must have been a little slower than the pitch speed. The Firefly as bad or worse than a brick when the throttle is below 3000rpm. Falls from the sky. I have an r/c plane which is like the the kolb in flying characteristics, at lower rpms you can spot land it,unless I flare too high. then its re-bend the landing gear back again. Mark ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:18:07 PM PST US From: David Kulp Subject: Kolb-List: Glide ratio Kolbers, In all this discussion about glide ratios and trying to figure if you can make it to an emergency landing site, there's a technique I was taught and had to use shortly after I bought my US in about '92 when I was brand new at flying. I was flying merrily about when suddenly the Cuyuna shut down. I could hear the engine turning and thought maybe the throttle cable disconnected and the engine was idling, so the first thing i did was to move the throttle on and off. Doing so I could hear the carb opening and closing - you know, that pulsing, sucking sound you hear on your hot rod when you punch the throttle with the air cleaner off - but no power. Knowing the engine was off, the next thing I did was look for a site to land. Spotted the sports fields at Pennfield Middle School and turned toward it. I didn't know how far away it was (about 2.5 miles), or how high I was (no altimeter), but I knew I could make it there without doing a single calculation. When you fly, anything that passes under the nose of your aircraft you will fly beyond, and any point that remains above the nose of your aircraft you will land before. Again, I was just a couple of months into flying, but I simply lowered the nose so that the sports fields stayed at the point neither above nor below the nose, and my speed was simply a result of the angle of descent necessary to reach the ground at the point I was aiming for. I'm sure most of you realize this, so isn't this the best way to know if you can make it to an emergency site or not? Doesn't matter about density altitude, head wind, tail wind, whatever, it'll get you there. If I'd had the opportunity to practice dead sticks I'd probably would have been able to pitch up a bit, fly more slowly and make it another mile or so to the strip where I hangared the US, but another thing I was taught as a newbie was when you pick your spot, don't change your mind unless you see a big reason to do so, such as a fence, etc. So at that chapter in my flying my only concern was trying to land safely - period. Comments? Dave Kulp Bethlehem, PA FireFly 11DMK On 10/2/2012 9:34 PM, Mark Shimei wrote: > Well...I had to try it again.actually,for the 38th time.... > Ultrastar,Cuyuna,3 blade ultraprop. 2000',plane was set up to glide > engine off at 2100' and clock started as I passed 2000'. 5 minutes,30 > seconds later I touched down,didnt hit any thermals that I could > feel. The gps odometer showed 3.1 miles,about 16000'.....that makes 8 > to 1 glide. > > I wouldnt use that for any emergency,only the amount of time I have > after the fire goes out,making the altimeter a time to impact device. > My glide speed is 35mph,and with the 12mph headwind that day,I wouldnt > go very far foward. Depending on the rpm, the windmilling prop can cut > that time by a third. > > If there are those who dont think a windmilling prop slows a > plane,then how does a gyrocopter fly? Stop the blade,see how fast it > goes.....down. > > If your idle speed=pitch speed at your glide ratio,then the spinning > prop will not make much difference. The US isnt a good glider(I have > thermalled it at idle for 15 minutes),So my glide or thermal speed > must have been a little slower than the pitch speed. > > The Firefly as bad or worse than a brick when the throttle is below > 3000rpm. Falls from the sky. > > I have an r/c plane which is like the the kolb in flying > characteristics, at lower rpms you can spot land it,unless I flare too > high. then its re-bend the landing gear back again. Mark > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:52:12 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: The spot that doesn't move From: Richard Girard While everything a pilot knows about his airplane is useful in an abstract way, glide ratio is practically useless. For instance, when I recounted my engine out landing at Augusta, KS, Pat Ladd pointed out that the numbers didn't add up. I, as Pat pointed out, should have been able to glide quite a bit further than I did. Why didn't I? Because I was gliding into a 5 to 7 knot breeze from the west northwest and the runway, and hence the downwind leg of the pattern, lies directly north and south. And this is why knowing your aircraft's glide ratio is a useless piece of knowledge, because the wind usually blows. So, if glide ratio is useless, what is useful? Being able to recognize at a glance what you can reach at that moment, in the conditions at that moment, that's what's useful. For the next several flights, do this. Climb to 3 or 4,000 feet AGL, cut power to idle, and set up a glide at 50 mph. Now look at the objects on the ground out in front of you. Some will appear to be moving toward you, while others, further out, will appear to moving toward the horizon, away from you. In between are objects that appear to be stationary. Those stationary objects are the farthest you can reach at that moment. Do this when flying into the wind, across the wind, and with the wind and you'll notice that the angle from you to those stationary objects changes. With the wind, the angle is flatter. Into the wind, the angle steepens. Across the wind the angle will be somewhere in between. The actual angle is unimportant. Being able to recognize that line of stationary objects IS what's important and the faster you can do it the more time you have to pick a landing spot short of that line should the need arise. Rick Girard -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:53:59 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Glide ratio From: Larry Cottrell > > If there are those who dont think a windmilling prop slows a plane,then > how does a gyrocopter fly? Stop the blade,see how fast it goes.....down. > > I always thought that the blades on a Gyro were there to perform the same function as a wing? I am also puzzled by a prop on a kolb that will windmill with the engine turned off. I could never get any of mine, 447,503, HKS to ever do any more than an ocassional rotation at the speeds that I was traveling with the engine off. Perhaps you should think about checking the compression on your engine. I remember once of trying a restart by diving, but could never manage it. Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.