Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:14 AM - Re: Aileron trim-drag question (Thom Riddle)
2. 06:05 AM - Re: Aileron trim-drag question (racerjerry)
3. 07:23 AM - Re: Aileron trim-drag question (Richard Pike)
4. 07:45 AM - Re: Aileron trim-drag question (t41pilot)
5. 08:03 AM - Re: Re: Aileron trim-drag question (John Hauck)
6. 08:40 AM - Re: Re: Aileron trim-drag question (Robert Laird)
7. 09:04 AM - Re: Re: Aileron trim-drag question (John Hauck)
8. 09:30 AM - Re: Re: Aileron trim-drag question (Rick Neilsen)
9. 11:24 AM - How do you transport a Kolb home? (DGaudette)
10. 12:02 PM - Re: How do you transport a Kolb home? (Jack Lockamy)
11. 01:02 PM - Re: How do you transport a Kolb home? (Dana Hague)
12. 01:11 PM - Re: How do you transport a Kolb home? (Tom O'Hara)
13. 01:24 PM - Re: flaperon angle (Ducati SS)
14. 01:43 PM - Re: Aileron trim-drag question (b young)
15. 03:28 PM - Re: How do you transport a Kolb home? (John Hauck)
16. 03:35 PM - Re: How do you transport a Kolb home? (Robert Laird)
17. 04:05 PM - Re: Re: Aileron trim-drag question (Beauford)
18. 04:20 PM - Re: Re: Aileron trim-drag question (John Hauck)
19. 04:30 PM - Re: Re: Aileron trim-drag question (John Hauck)
20. 06:59 PM - Re: flaperon angle (cdupuis)
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Subject: | Re: Aileron trim-drag question |
Gregg,
I think you will find a trim tab to be more effective (and thus can be smaller
and/or bent at less angle) if it is bent into the high pressure airstream (below
the wing instead of above the wing). Of course to get the aileron bias you
want it would have to be mounted on opposite aileron.
do not archive
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
no engine
FOR SALE
Diamond Katana DA20-A1
Rotax 912 F3
Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous
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Subject: | Re: Aileron trim-drag question |
To diagnose the reason for need of an aileron trim tab, beg/buy/borrow a digital
level and tape it to a straight 5-foot wooden furring strip. If you have a
problem that requires aileron trim; the reason is that either that the wing has
a built-in twist or there is a slight difference in incidence between the two
wings. Digital levels are neat because you can zero at any point and directly
observe any difference when checking incidence at any point along the wing.
I have seen a lot of wings with an unintentional built-in twist. If both wings
were built with the same degree of twist, you would probably never know the difference.
The problem is that if your construction table has a built-in twist,
your two wings will be built with a twist in the opposite direction of each
other; guaranteeing a roll trim problem.
I was lucky to have acquired a digital level to set up a table for wing assembly.
I was also lucky to have a cast iron bench and two long lengths of straight
3 x 3 square tubing to form a base for my plywood table. For anything lass
rigid, during wing assembly, you need to recheck the table each day end-for-end
to make sure one of your kids didnt bump the table.
Also, there is nothing better than using a digital level when drilling that final
hole at the wig root tab that sets wing incidence forever.
--------
Jerry King
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Subject: | Re: Aileron trim-drag question |
I doubt that you are going to add much drag regardless of how you do it, so do
it the way you want to. My preference to was to make an easily adjustable trim
tab and adjust it for either solo or a passenger as part of my preflight. Simple
and after a number of years, very reliable. In the link it still shows the
original setup, I modified it with large nylon R/C aircraft hinges, & I like
it much better now.
http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/pg6.htm
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
richard (at) bcchapel(dot)org
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:1
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Subject: | Re: Aileron trim-drag question |
It's certainly possible that one or the other wing could have a twist. This was
my first aircraft build. The wing halves were actually built in a bedroom of
my house last winter on a set of heavy sawhorses. My basement has a 90 deg turn
in the stairway so couldn't get wings built down there. I actually had to bring
my drag struts through the window for install since they had to fit through
a little guide tube on the inboard steel ribs. My leading edges on the wings
line up perfectly and of course the trailing edges attach at the U joint. Doesn't
mean that there still couldn't be a problem with incidence. I can even
see how twist could be induced during the covering process with too much shrinking.
I think I could fix an incidence problem using Dana's method but twist sounds
like a teardown to me. The plane flies well now with the tab so I'll start
the summer with that and then look into seeing if I can fix anything. The
key will be if I go to a get together somewhere and somebody can give me some
help looking it over.
--------
Gregg Kaat
2011 Firefly
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Subject: | Re: Aileron trim-drag question |
The plane flies well now with the tab so I'll start the summer with that
and then look into seeing if I can fix anything.
Gregg Kaat
2011 Firefly
Seems to me you fixed the problem with the trim tab. Most airplanes use
trim tabs on all three axes.
I have a rudder trim tab on my MKIII. Pitch and roll trim pressures are
relieved with forced trim.
My Ultrastar and Firestar had tabs on all three axes.
There are many, many things that can cause a wing to fly more or less than
its partner. Our homebuilt airplanes constructed by amateurs are not
precision machines. Neither am I.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
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Subject: | Re: Aileron trim-drag question |
So, where do you put the trim tabs on YOU, John? ;-)
On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 10:03 AM, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
> There are many, many things that can cause a wing to fly more or less than
> its partner. Our homebuilt airplanes constructed by amateurs are not
> precision machines. Neither am I.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Aileron trim-drag question |
You'll never guess. ;-)
I flew the MKIII a half bubble out of trim for many, many hours, before
coming up with a rudder trim tab that would correct the adverse yaw. Got
the MKIII flying in trim, but I have always been a half bubble out.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
So, where do you put the trim tabs on YOU, John? ;-)
On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 10:03 AM, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
There are many, many things that can cause a wing to fly more or less than
its partner. Our homebuilt airplanes constructed by amateurs are not
precision machines. Neither am I.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Aileron trim-drag question |
What is done is done. I had a roll trim issue on my VW powered MKIIIC but
decided to fix it with the optional Kolb adjustable rear attachment
fitting. You move washers around till it flies the way you want it. No
extra trim tab needed. I personally feel you will have less drag if the
wings are aligned properly but I can't prove it.
Worth what you paid for it.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW POwered MKIIIC
On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 10:45 AM, t41pilot <t41pilot@frontier.com> wrote:
>
> It's certainly possible that one or the other wing could have a twist.
> This was my first aircraft build. The wing halves were actually built in a
> bedroom of my house last winter on a set of heavy sawhorses. My basement
> has a 90 deg turn in the stairway so couldn't get wings built down there. I
> actually had to bring my drag struts through the window for install since
> they had to fit through a little guide tube on the inboard steel ribs. My
> leading edges on the wings line up perfectly and of course the trailing
> edges attach at the U joint. Doesn't mean that there still couldn't be a
> problem with incidence. I can even see how twist could be induced during
> the covering process with too much shrinking. I think I could fix an
> incidence problem using Dana's method but twist sounds like a teardown to
> me. The plane flies well now with the tab so I'll start the summer with
> that and then look into seeing if I can fix anything. The key will be if I
> go to a get together somewhere and !
> somebody can give me some help looking it over.
>
> --------
> Gregg Kaat
> 2011 Firefly
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392635#392635
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/p9150073_193.jpg
>
>
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Subject: | How do you transport a Kolb home? |
Folks,
How would a guy transport a Kolb home? I'm considering purchasing a Kolb from
several states away but am stuck on how do I get this thing home?
Any suggestions? Pictures?
Thanks,
Doug
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Subject: | How do you transport a Kolb home? |
Buy, rent or steal a 24-FT, V-nose, enclosed, utility trailer with rear door
ramp. Easy to find on Craigslist.
Sell the trailer when you get your Kolb home or keep it and use it as a
portable hangar.
Jack in Key West
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DGaudette
Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2013 2:24 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: How do you transport a Kolb home?
Folks,
How would a guy transport a Kolb home? I'm considering purchasing a Kolb
from several states away but am stuck on how do I get this thing home?
Any suggestions? Pictures?
Thanks,
Doug
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392648#392648
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Subject: | Re: How do you transport a Kolb home? |
At 02:23 PM 1/19/2013, DGaudette wrote:
>
>Folks,
>
>How would a guy transport a Kolb home? I'm considering purchasing a Kolb
>from several states away but am stuck on how do I get this thing home?
Fly it?
-Dana
--
Roses are red,
Violets are blue,
I'm wasting much too much time on the internet,
and probably, so are you.
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: How do you transport a Kolb home? |
I rented a 28 foot U-Haul and brought one home from North WI to Eastern PA with
no trailer rash. Wings were hung along the sides with 2ft pieces of carpet cushioned
with 4" of foam. Fuselage was pushed in with wheels chocked and tires
wired so that they could not move. Boom was raised with a cradle about 4" off
the floor to remove load on the tail wheel-used foam and carpet again for padding.
Make sure you have lock the boom on the cradle so that it doesn't bounce
out. Stopped every 90 minutes to check on the ride. Send email address and
I will send pics during the week.
oharat2012@gmail.com
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Subject: | Re: flaperon angle |
I have Firefly sn- 22 Just curious why you want to change the angle.
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Subject: | Re: Aileron trim-drag question |
I have flown with john and never saw a trim tab on him.. only his
plane
BUT------ I did see photos of Beauford with VG=99s on his
helmet!!!
lol boyd
do not archive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
So, where do you put the trim tabs on YOU, John? ;-)
On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 10:03 AM, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
wrote:
There are many, many things that can cause a wing to fly more or
less than
its partner. Our homebuilt airplanes constructed by amateurs are not
precision machines. Neither am I.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 15
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Subject: | How do you transport a Kolb home? |
How would a guy transport a Kolb home? I'm considering purchasing a Kolb
from several states away but am stuck on how do I get this thing home?
Any suggestions? Pictures?
Thanks,
Doug
Doug/Kolbers:
If the Kolb is flyable, why not fly it home?
Much quicker, easier, and safer for the airplane. Trailering is really hard
on Kolbs, especially long distances.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
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Subject: | Re: How do you transport a Kolb home? |
Alternatively, get a (well-qualified) good friend to ferry it for you.
I've done that in the past (but don't do it any more), and I usually
suggest (if it's not a single-seater) to have them come with me... Lots of
fun! And, like John says, easier on the plane, too.
-- Robert
On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 5:28 PM, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
> How would a guy transport a Kolb home? I'm considering purchasing a Kolb
> from several states away but am stuck on how do I get this thing home?
>
> Any suggestions? Pictures?
>
> Thanks,
> Doug
>
>
> Doug/Kolbers:
>
> If the Kolb is flyable, why not fly it home?
>
> Much quicker, easier, and safer for the airplane. Trailering is really
> hard
> on Kolbs, especially long distances.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Aileron trim-drag question |
Brother Boyd
Have been following this string about aileron trim and drag with
interestbut some detachment.
Fer what it=99s worth, a small aileron tab worked fine for me on
the trim took out almost all of the
work on my oversize fifteen inch aileronsmy scrawny arms
applauded the help.
The matter of aileron drag is much more complex and well beyond
the scope of =98ol Beauford=99s experience with the Fly.
>From where I sit, analyzing
the nuances of aileron drag on a Fire Fly is roughly akin to trying to
hone a fine edge on an Angus heifer. Those of you fortunate enough to
operate the high speed, low drag Kolbs are breathing different air and
talking a different language
In my humble thinking, to mention =9Cdrag=9D in the same
sentence with =9CFireFly=9D seems unnecessary.. My chubby
22 ft wings waddle through the atmosphere at roughly the same angle as a
loosely held table knife making its way through a jar of extra-crunchy
JIF peanut butter. From my observations, the Kleenex Kolb shares its
drag coefficient with the average full-rigged schooner. What I
laughingly refer to as my =9Ccruise=9D performance is a
non-issue. If the evil 447 were to surrender abruptly (again) and a
=9Cglide=9D were to ensue, I believe I could strap a 4 x 8
sheet of plywood across my somewhat sunken chest and not see an
appreciable change in the pre-impact trajectory of my machine toward its
final home in the grit. Based on my playing with it, I don=99t
think there are enough VG=99s on the planet (or my helmet) to
significantly re-locate the outcome. For those who are curious, it has
been my flabby 220 lb. experience that the difference between a
=9Cglide=9D and a screaming =9Cdive=9D in a
silent FireFly is about three mph IAS but who=99s
counting.
Anyway It is indeed a worthy thread and I applaud
those of us who earnestly seek to outwit the laws of physics for an
extra knot or so
I enjoy the Kleenex Fly immensely and always marvel when it
enthusiastically lifts me arse off the turf. Kolb on!
worth what ye paid fer it
beauford
FF-076
Brandon, FL
If you forward this e-mail, please remove my name before sending it...
I promise to do the same for you...
Thanks...
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of b young
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Aileron trim-drag question
I have flown with john and never saw a trim tab on him.. only his plane
BUT------ I did see photos of Beauford with VG=99s on his
helmet!!!
lol boyd
do not archive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
So, where do you put the trim tabs on YOU, John? ;-)
On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 10:03 AM, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
wrote:
There are many, many things that can cause a wing to fly more or less
than
its partner. Our homebuilt airplanes constructed by amateurs are not
precision machines. Neither am I.
Message 18
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Subject: | Re: Aileron trim-drag question |
I enjoy the Kleenex Fly immensely and always marvel when it
enthusiastically lifts me arse off the turf. Kolb on!
worth what ye paid fer it
beauford
FF-076
Brandon, FL
Me too!
I have personally witnessed Beauford commit aviation in his Kleenex
Kolb. It is a blur in the sky. A screaming banshee.
A wonderful feeling. I committed got out the mkIII, flew 11 miles to
08A, Wetumpka Airport, got 10 gals of 100LL, shot an approach on the N/S
grass strip, the headed back to Gantt International Airport. Felt good,
although I was terribly rusty after a two month period without flying.
First time I rolled out the mkIII since returning from the Kolb
Homecoming the middle of Nov.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 19
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Subject: | Re: Aileron trim-drag question |
Gonna have to start proof reading before I hit the send button.
Should have read:
A wonderful feeling. I committed aviation this afternoon. Pushed out
the MKIII, ..
john
A wonderful feeling. I committed got out the mkIII, flew 11 miles to
08A, Wetumpka Airport, got 10 gals of 100LL, shot an approach on the N/S
grass strip, the headed back to Gantt International Airport. Felt good,
although I was terribly rusty after a two month period without flying.
First time I rolled out the mkIII since returning from the Kolb
Homecoming the middle of Nov.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
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Subject: | Re: flaperon angle |
I was reading a book on aircraft design and was curious if anyone had increased
the angle of the flaperons. With the monospar on the firefly I was wondering
if there were problems with torsional rigidity. When I put mine together I was
expecting more angle, but I'm used to 150's, 172's, etc.
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