---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 01/19/13: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:14 AM - Re: Aileron trim-drag question (Thom Riddle) 2. 06:05 AM - Re: Aileron trim-drag question (racerjerry) 3. 07:23 AM - Re: Aileron trim-drag question (Richard Pike) 4. 07:45 AM - Re: Aileron trim-drag question (t41pilot) 5. 08:03 AM - Re: Re: Aileron trim-drag question (John Hauck) 6. 08:40 AM - Re: Re: Aileron trim-drag question (Robert Laird) 7. 09:04 AM - Re: Re: Aileron trim-drag question (John Hauck) 8. 09:30 AM - Re: Re: Aileron trim-drag question (Rick Neilsen) 9. 11:24 AM - How do you transport a Kolb home? (DGaudette) 10. 12:02 PM - Re: How do you transport a Kolb home? (Jack Lockamy) 11. 01:02 PM - Re: How do you transport a Kolb home? (Dana Hague) 12. 01:11 PM - Re: How do you transport a Kolb home? (Tom O'Hara) 13. 01:24 PM - Re: flaperon angle (Ducati SS) 14. 01:43 PM - Re: Aileron trim-drag question (b young) 15. 03:28 PM - Re: How do you transport a Kolb home? (John Hauck) 16. 03:35 PM - Re: How do you transport a Kolb home? (Robert Laird) 17. 04:05 PM - Re: Re: Aileron trim-drag question (Beauford) 18. 04:20 PM - Re: Re: Aileron trim-drag question (John Hauck) 19. 04:30 PM - Re: Re: Aileron trim-drag question (John Hauck) 20. 06:59 PM - Re: flaperon angle (cdupuis) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:14:32 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Aileron trim-drag question From: "Thom Riddle" Gregg, I think you will find a trim tab to be more effective (and thus can be smaller and/or bent at less angle) if it is bent into the high pressure airstream (below the wing instead of above the wing). Of course to get the aileron bias you want it would have to be mounted on opposite aileron. do not archive -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY (9G0) Kolb Slingshot SS-021 no engine FOR SALE Diamond Katana DA20-A1 Rotax 912 F3 Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long. - Anonymous Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392629#392629 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:05:18 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Aileron trim-drag question From: "racerjerry" To diagnose the reason for need of an aileron trim tab, beg/buy/borrow a digital level and tape it to a straight 5-foot wooden furring strip. If you have a problem that requires aileron trim; the reason is that either that the wing has a built-in twist or there is a slight difference in incidence between the two wings. Digital levels are neat because you can zero at any point and directly observe any difference when checking incidence at any point along the wing. I have seen a lot of wings with an unintentional built-in twist. If both wings were built with the same degree of twist, you would probably never know the difference. The problem is that if your construction table has a built-in twist, your two wings will be built with a twist in the opposite direction of each other; guaranteeing a roll trim problem. I was lucky to have acquired a digital level to set up a table for wing assembly. I was also lucky to have a cast iron bench and two long lengths of straight 3 x 3 square tubing to form a base for my plywood table. For anything lass rigid, during wing assembly, you need to recheck the table each day end-for-end to make sure one of your kids didnt bump the table. Also, there is nothing better than using a digital level when drilling that final hole at the wig root tab that sets wing incidence forever. -------- Jerry King Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392631#392631 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:23:13 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Aileron trim-drag question From: "Richard Pike" I doubt that you are going to add much drag regardless of how you do it, so do it the way you want to. My preference to was to make an easily adjustable trim tab and adjust it for either solo or a passenger as part of my preflight. Simple and after a number of years, very reliable. In the link it still shows the original setup, I modified it with large nylon R/C aircraft hinges, & I like it much better now. http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/pg6.htm -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) richard (at) bcchapel(dot)org Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392634#392634 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:45 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Aileron trim-drag question From: "t41pilot" It's certainly possible that one or the other wing could have a twist. This was my first aircraft build. The wing halves were actually built in a bedroom of my house last winter on a set of heavy sawhorses. My basement has a 90 deg turn in the stairway so couldn't get wings built down there. I actually had to bring my drag struts through the window for install since they had to fit through a little guide tube on the inboard steel ribs. My leading edges on the wings line up perfectly and of course the trailing edges attach at the U joint. Doesn't mean that there still couldn't be a problem with incidence. I can even see how twist could be induced during the covering process with too much shrinking. I think I could fix an incidence problem using Dana's method but twist sounds like a teardown to me. The plane flies well now with the tab so I'll start the summer with that and then look into seeing if I can fix anything. The key will be if I go to a get together somewhere and somebody can give me some help looking it over. -------- Gregg Kaat 2011 Firefly Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392635#392635 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/p9150073_193.jpg ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:03:44 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Aileron trim-drag question The plane flies well now with the tab so I'll start the summer with that and then look into seeing if I can fix anything. Gregg Kaat 2011 Firefly Seems to me you fixed the problem with the trim tab. Most airplanes use trim tabs on all three axes. I have a rudder trim tab on my MKIII. Pitch and roll trim pressures are relieved with forced trim. My Ultrastar and Firestar had tabs on all three axes. There are many, many things that can cause a wing to fly more or less than its partner. Our homebuilt airplanes constructed by amateurs are not precision machines. Neither am I. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:40:24 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Aileron trim-drag question From: Robert Laird So, where do you put the trim tabs on YOU, John? ;-) On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 10:03 AM, John Hauck wrote: > There are many, many things that can cause a wing to fly more or less than > its partner. Our homebuilt airplanes constructed by amateurs are not > precision machines. Neither am I. > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:04:18 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Aileron trim-drag question You'll never guess. ;-) I flew the MKIII a half bubble out of trim for many, many hours, before coming up with a rudder trim tab that would correct the adverse yaw. Got the MKIII flying in trim, but I have always been a half bubble out. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama So, where do you put the trim tabs on YOU, John? ;-) On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 10:03 AM, John Hauck wrote: There are many, many things that can cause a wing to fly more or less than its partner. Our homebuilt airplanes constructed by amateurs are not precision machines. Neither am I. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:30:46 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Aileron trim-drag question From: Rick Neilsen What is done is done. I had a roll trim issue on my VW powered MKIIIC but decided to fix it with the optional Kolb adjustable rear attachment fitting. You move washers around till it flies the way you want it. No extra trim tab needed. I personally feel you will have less drag if the wings are aligned properly but I can't prove it. Worth what you paid for it. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW POwered MKIIIC On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 10:45 AM, t41pilot wrote: > > It's certainly possible that one or the other wing could have a twist. > This was my first aircraft build. The wing halves were actually built in a > bedroom of my house last winter on a set of heavy sawhorses. My basement > has a 90 deg turn in the stairway so couldn't get wings built down there. I > actually had to bring my drag struts through the window for install since > they had to fit through a little guide tube on the inboard steel ribs. My > leading edges on the wings line up perfectly and of course the trailing > edges attach at the U joint. Doesn't mean that there still couldn't be a > problem with incidence. I can even see how twist could be induced during > the covering process with too much shrinking. I think I could fix an > incidence problem using Dana's method but twist sounds like a teardown to > me. The plane flies well now with the tab so I'll start the summer with > that and then look into seeing if I can fix anything. The key will be if I > go to a get together somewhere and ! > somebody can give me some help looking it over. > > -------- > Gregg Kaat > 2011 Firefly > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392635#392635 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/p9150073_193.jpg > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:24:56 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: How do you transport a Kolb home? From: "DGaudette" Folks, How would a guy transport a Kolb home? I'm considering purchasing a Kolb from several states away but am stuck on how do I get this thing home? Any suggestions? Pictures? Thanks, Doug Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392648#392648 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:02:42 PM PST US From: "Jack Lockamy" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: How do you transport a Kolb home? Buy, rent or steal a 24-FT, V-nose, enclosed, utility trailer with rear door ramp. Easy to find on Craigslist. Sell the trailer when you get your Kolb home or keep it and use it as a portable hangar. Jack in Key West -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DGaudette Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2013 2:24 PM Subject: Kolb-List: How do you transport a Kolb home? Folks, How would a guy transport a Kolb home? I'm considering purchasing a Kolb from several states away but am stuck on how do I get this thing home? Any suggestions? Pictures? Thanks, Doug Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392648#392648 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:02:49 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: How do you transport a Kolb home? At 02:23 PM 1/19/2013, DGaudette wrote: > >Folks, > >How would a guy transport a Kolb home? I'm considering purchasing a Kolb >from several states away but am stuck on how do I get this thing home? Fly it? -Dana -- Roses are red, Violets are blue, I'm wasting much too much time on the internet, and probably, so are you. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:11:48 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: How do you transport a Kolb home? From: "Tom O'Hara" I rented a 28 foot U-Haul and brought one home from North WI to Eastern PA with no trailer rash. Wings were hung along the sides with 2ft pieces of carpet cushioned with 4" of foam. Fuselage was pushed in with wheels chocked and tires wired so that they could not move. Boom was raised with a cradle about 4" off the floor to remove load on the tail wheel-used foam and carpet again for padding. Make sure you have lock the boom on the cradle so that it doesn't bounce out. Stopped every 90 minutes to check on the ride. Send email address and I will send pics during the week. oharat2012@gmail.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392651#392651 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:24:26 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: flaperon angle From: "Ducati SS" I have Firefly sn- 22 Just curious why you want to change the angle. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392652#392652 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:43:49 PM PST US From: "b young" Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Aileron trim-drag question I have flown with john and never saw a trim tab on him.. only his plane BUT------ I did see photos of Beauford with VG=99s on his helmet!!! lol boyd do not archive >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, where do you put the trim tabs on YOU, John? ;-) On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 10:03 AM, John Hauck wrote: There are many, many things that can cause a wing to fly more or less than its partner. Our homebuilt airplanes constructed by amateurs are not precision machines. Neither am I. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:28:36 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: How do you transport a Kolb home? How would a guy transport a Kolb home? I'm considering purchasing a Kolb from several states away but am stuck on how do I get this thing home? Any suggestions? Pictures? Thanks, Doug Doug/Kolbers: If the Kolb is flyable, why not fly it home? Much quicker, easier, and safer for the airplane. Trailering is really hard on Kolbs, especially long distances. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:35:46 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: How do you transport a Kolb home? From: Robert Laird Alternatively, get a (well-qualified) good friend to ferry it for you. I've done that in the past (but don't do it any more), and I usually suggest (if it's not a single-seater) to have them come with me... Lots of fun! And, like John says, easier on the plane, too. -- Robert On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 5:28 PM, John Hauck wrote: > > > How would a guy transport a Kolb home? I'm considering purchasing a Kolb > from several states away but am stuck on how do I get this thing home? > > Any suggestions? Pictures? > > Thanks, > Doug > > > Doug/Kolbers: > > If the Kolb is flyable, why not fly it home? > > Much quicker, easier, and safer for the airplane. Trailering is really > hard > on Kolbs, especially long distances. > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:05:07 PM PST US From: "Beauford " Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Aileron trim-drag question Brother Boyd Have been following this string about aileron trim and drag with interestbut some detachment. Fer what it=99s worth, a small aileron tab worked fine for me on the trim took out almost all of the work on my oversize fifteen inch aileronsmy scrawny arms applauded the help. The matter of aileron drag is much more complex and well beyond the scope of =98ol Beauford=99s experience with the Fly. >From where I sit, analyzing the nuances of aileron drag on a Fire Fly is roughly akin to trying to hone a fine edge on an Angus heifer. Those of you fortunate enough to operate the high speed, low drag Kolbs are breathing different air and talking a different language In my humble thinking, to mention =9Cdrag=9D in the same sentence with =9CFireFly=9D seems unnecessary.. My chubby 22 ft wings waddle through the atmosphere at roughly the same angle as a loosely held table knife making its way through a jar of extra-crunchy JIF peanut butter. From my observations, the Kleenex Kolb shares its drag coefficient with the average full-rigged schooner. What I laughingly refer to as my =9Ccruise=9D performance is a non-issue. If the evil 447 were to surrender abruptly (again) and a =9Cglide=9D were to ensue, I believe I could strap a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood across my somewhat sunken chest and not see an appreciable change in the pre-impact trajectory of my machine toward its final home in the grit. Based on my playing with it, I don=99t think there are enough VG=99s on the planet (or my helmet) to significantly re-locate the outcome. For those who are curious, it has been my flabby 220 lb. experience that the difference between a =9Cglide=9D and a screaming =9Cdive=9D in a silent FireFly is about three mph IAS but who=99s counting. Anyway It is indeed a worthy thread and I applaud those of us who earnestly seek to outwit the laws of physics for an extra knot or so I enjoy the Kleenex Fly immensely and always marvel when it enthusiastically lifts me arse off the turf. Kolb on! worth what ye paid fer it beauford FF-076 Brandon, FL If you forward this e-mail, please remove my name before sending it... I promise to do the same for you... Thanks... From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of b young Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Aileron trim-drag question I have flown with john and never saw a trim tab on him.. only his plane BUT------ I did see photos of Beauford with VG=99s on his helmet!!! lol boyd do not archive >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, where do you put the trim tabs on YOU, John? ;-) On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 10:03 AM, John Hauck wrote: There are many, many things that can cause a wing to fly more or less than its partner. Our homebuilt airplanes constructed by amateurs are not precision machines. Neither am I. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:20:14 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Aileron trim-drag question I enjoy the Kleenex Fly immensely and always marvel when it enthusiastically lifts me arse off the turf. Kolb on! worth what ye paid fer it beauford FF-076 Brandon, FL Me too! I have personally witnessed Beauford commit aviation in his Kleenex Kolb. It is a blur in the sky. A screaming banshee. A wonderful feeling. I committed got out the mkIII, flew 11 miles to 08A, Wetumpka Airport, got 10 gals of 100LL, shot an approach on the N/S grass strip, the headed back to Gantt International Airport. Felt good, although I was terribly rusty after a two month period without flying. First time I rolled out the mkIII since returning from the Kolb Homecoming the middle of Nov. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 04:30:08 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Aileron trim-drag question Gonna have to start proof reading before I hit the send button. Should have read: A wonderful feeling. I committed aviation this afternoon. Pushed out the MKIII, .. john A wonderful feeling. I committed got out the mkIII, flew 11 miles to 08A, Wetumpka Airport, got 10 gals of 100LL, shot an approach on the N/S grass strip, the headed back to Gantt International Airport. Felt good, although I was terribly rusty after a two month period without flying. First time I rolled out the mkIII since returning from the Kolb Homecoming the middle of Nov. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:59:40 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: flaperon angle From: "cdupuis" I was reading a book on aircraft design and was curious if anyone had increased the angle of the flaperons. With the monospar on the firefly I was wondering if there were problems with torsional rigidity. When I put mine together I was expecting more angle, but I'm used to 150's, 172's, etc. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392681#392681 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.