Kolb-List Digest Archive

Mon 02/18/13


Total Messages Posted: 11



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 03:45 AM - Re: Kolb Mark III or Cessna Operating Costs (Dana Hague)
     2. 03:52 AM - Re: Kolb Mark III or Cessna Operating Costs (Dan Walter)
     3. 05:21 AM - Re: Kolb Mark III or Cessna Operating Costs (kinne russ)
     4. 05:36 AM - Re: Looking for pilots in the Ft. Lauderdale area (gotime242)
     5. 07:27 AM - Re: 377 (Richard Girard)
     6. 01:52 PM - Re: Kolb Mark III or Cessna Operating Costs (alienwes)
     7. 04:04 PM - Re: 377 (chris davis)
     8. 05:28 PM - Cessna 150 For sale (Steve Simmons)
     9. 07:47 PM - Re: 377 (wakataka)
    10. 08:23 PM - Re: Re: 377 (herb)
    11. 09:14 PM - Re: 377 (wakataka)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 03:45:20 AM PST US
    From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: Kolb Mark III or Cessna Operating Costs
    You can do all the maintenance on a Kolb yourself; you only need an A&P for the annual. The Cessna needs an A&P signoff for all maintenance other than a short list of simple preventative maintenance. A Kolb will eventually need a fabric recover job, the Cessna won't. At 14K the Cessna sounds like a great deal if it's in good shape. With a Kolb you're part of a great community, both Kolb guys and the larger experimental community. With a Cessna... well... it's just a Cessna... But most important: the Kolb will be a lot more FUN! -Dana At 09:52 PM 2/17/2013, alienwes wrote: > >Hi everyone, > >Sorry in advance if you do not like the topic, but I am sure others who >decided to buy/build a Kolb looked into GA aircraft before making the >decision. I have a local Dr. who is selling his Cessna 152 for 14K. He >says operating costs are around the $42/hour range. It just had a rebuild >28 hours ago. I am pricing Mark III's and most are in the 20K-30K with a >912. I see some immediate benefits of both. > >Kolb needs no hangar fees, only a trailer. >Kolb can take regular gas >Kolb has better performance/climb >Kolb has no medical requirement, but I can easily get a medical at age 33 >Kolb has less annual costs > >Cessna is cheaper to start with >AV gas is higher >Annuals are higher >Needs hangar >Flies faster/farther > >Anything I am missing here? >What are others operating cost per hour? > >Thanks, > >Wes > >-------- >Wesley Elliott >Sport Pilot-PPC > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394470#394470 > > -- If vegetarians eat vegetables... beware of humanitarians!


    Message 2


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    Time: 03:52:49 AM PST US
    From: "Dan Walter" <worrybear@verizon.net>
    Subject: Re: Kolb Mark III or Cessna Operating Costs
    Wes, I was in the same boat, Wanted another Kolb bad but also wanted a 4 cycle. Could not afford anything with a 912, Jabiru or HKS. Ended up buying a nice Ercoupe, love the plane but repairs and annuals are difficult and expensive. And no short field capabilities. My next plane will be Experimental. Dan Walter ----- Original Message ----- From: "alienwes" <elliott.wesley@yahoo.com> Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 9:52 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb Mark III or Cessna Operating Costs > > Hi everyone, > > Sorry in advance if you do not like the topic, but I am sure others who > decided to buy/build a Kolb looked into GA aircraft before making the > decision. I have a local Dr. who is selling his Cessna 152 for 14K. He > says operating costs are around the $42/hour range. It just had a rebuild > 28 hours ago. I am pricing Mark III's and most are in the 20K-30K with a > 912. I see some immediate benefits of both. > > Kolb needs no hangar fees, only a trailer. > Kolb can take regular gas > Kolb has better performance/climb > Kolb has no medical requirement, but I can easily get a medical at age 33 > Kolb has less annual costs > > Cessna is cheaper to start with > AV gas is higher > Annuals are higher > Needs hangar > Flies faster/farther > > Anything I am missing here? > What are others operating cost per hour? > > Thanks, > > Wes > > -------- > Wesley Elliott > Sport Pilot-PPC > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394470#394470 > > >


    Message 3


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    Time: 05:21:48 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Kolb Mark III or Cessna Operating Costs
    From: kinne russ <russk50@gmail.com>
    Alien , I have to question the cost of operating a 150 for 'about $42/hour'. Really don't see how it can be that low, esp. if he carefully includes everything. Like adding a buck or two towards the eventual overhaul. And does he include the cost of his own physicals? I had a 170 for 20 years and kept careful records. Just can't see that 42/hour unless he flies 300-400 hrs a year. But congrats to him if he can fly that cheaply. Russ K On Feb 17, 2013, at 9:52 PM, alienwes wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > Sorry in advance if you do not like the topic, but I am sure others who decided to buy/build a Kolb looked into GA aircraft before making the decision. I have a local Dr. who is selling his Cessna 152 for 14K. He says operating costs are around the $42/hour range. It just had a rebuild 28 hours ago. I am pricing Mark III's and most are in the 20K-30K with a 912. I see some immediate benefits of both. > > Kolb needs no hangar fees, only a trailer. > Kolb can take regular gas > Kolb has better performance/climb > Kolb has no medical requirement, but I can easily get a medical at age 33 > Kolb has less annual costs > > Cessna is cheaper to start with > AV gas is higher > Annuals are higher > Needs hangar > Flies faster/farther > > Anything I am missing here? > What are others operating cost per hour? > > Thanks, > > Wes > > -------- > Wesley Elliott > Sport Pilot-PPC > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394470#394470 > > > > > > > > > >


    Message 4


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    Time: 05:36:10 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Looking for pilots in the Ft. Lauderdale area
    From: "gotime242" <dylanshine@gmail.com>
    Ultralights are few and far between in the Ft Lauderdale area, as we as even just open ultralight-type experimentals. Id say the best bet is to venture north up to lantana or F45, or south into some of the outer airports in Miami. I know at lantana there are a couple challenger experimentals, but not much... I also think there was a guy giving rides out between Labelle / Clewiston...around the hang glider activity. Maybe give them a call to see what is possible. http://www.thefloridaridge.com/pages/pilot.php Good luck! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394485#394485


    Message 5


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    Time: 07:27:41 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: 377
    From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
    Chris, I had a forced air cooled 377 on a MiniMax and my buddy runs a fanless 503 on his Airbike without problems. Of course both these had a big fan immediately in front of the engine. In the air you'd most likely be all right, it's ground ops where you'd have a cooling issue. On the other hand, air cooled two strokes were run on street and off road motorcycles for decades. As they say, one good experiment beats a thousand expert opinions, so save the fan and shrouding and give it a try. If it doesn't cool well enough you can always change back. Rick Girard do not archive On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 6:10 PM, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote: > > > Kolbers , just wondering if you gent thought a 377 without a fan would be > ok on a Kolb or if it was ridiculous to try ? > > Chris Davis > > > Chris D/Kolbers > > Don't think you could cool it. > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx


    Message 6


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    Time: 01:52:58 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Kolb Mark III or Cessna Operating Costs
    From: "alienwes" <elliott.wesley@yahoo.com>
    Thanks everyone for your insight. To answer the question on my pilots license, I already have my Sport Pilot, but need a fixed wing endorsement as its only for PPC right now. That reduces the cost for the Kolb. I am assuming this Dr. just threw out a number for operating costs for the Cessna that he was told. Do not think he really considered all the facts. I do like being part of a community, which the Kolb seems to have much more than the Cessna. Just like the community of PPC pilots I enjoy knowing. Thanks again for everyones input. -------- Wesley Elliott Sport Pilot-PPC Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394517#394517


    Message 7


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    Time: 04:04:14 PM PST US
    From: chris davis <capedavis@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: 377
    I Rich , i was think very strongly to do as you said try it out and ad a fa n and shroud if it didnt cool enough .I will be flying most of the time out of an airfield with little traffic- , so my ground time running will be limited plus I being- disabled am going to have an electric start so i co uld- just shut it off if i was held up it seems to me that that engine wi th all those cooling fins ought to cool Ok but ?I have never delt with the rear cylinder andn fan as I only have 492 hours on one 503 with a fan and n ever a heat problem . Thanks for your input .- Chris=0A=0A=0AChris Davis =0AKXP 503 492 hrs=0AGlider Pilot=0ADisabled from crash building Firefly=0A =0A=0A>________________________________=0A>From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@ gmail.com>=0A>To: kolb-list@matronics.com =0A>Sent: Monday, February 18, 20 13 10:27 AM=0A>Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 377=0A>=0A>=0A>Chris, I had a forced air cooled 377 on a MiniMax and my buddy runs a fanless 503 on his Airbike without problems. Of course both these had a big fan immediately in front of the engine. In the air you'd most likely be all right, it's ground ops w here you'd have a cooling issue. On the other hand, air cooled two strokes were run on street and off road motorcycles for decades.- =0A>As they say , one good experiment beats a thousand expert opinions, so save the fan and shrouding and give it a try. If it doesn't cool well enough you can always change back.=0A>=0A>=0A>Rick Girard=0A>do not archive=0A>=0A>=0A>On Sun, F eb 17, 2013 at 6:10 PM, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:=0A>=0A>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>=0A>>=0A>> =0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>-Kolbers , just wondering if you gent thought a 377 w ithout a fan would be=0A>>ok on a Kolb or if it was ridiculous to try ?=0A> >-=0A>>Chris Davis=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Chris D/Kolbers=0A>>=0A>>Don't thin k you could cool it.=0A>>=0A>>john h=0A>>mkIII=0A>>Titus, Alabama=0A>>=0A>> =0A>>=0A>>=0A>>============0A>>arget="_blank">http: //www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List=0A>>========== ==0A>>http://forums.matronics.com=0A>>=========== =0A>>le, List Admin.=0A>>="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =0A>>============0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>- - =0A>=0A>Zulu Delta=0A>Mk IIIC=0A>Thanks, Homer GBYM=0A>=0A>=0A>It isn't n ecessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.=0A>- - ===================== =0A>=0A>


    Message 8


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    Time: 05:28:47 PM PST US
    From: "Steve Simmons" <stevesimmons@charter.net>
    Subject: Cessna 150 For sale
    I have a nice Cessna 150 for sale Completely rebuilt with only 7 hours on a major overhaul new paint and interior. Call me or e-mail if anyone is interested. Still have my Mark III C for sale. Stevesimmons@charter.net or 423 748-4336


    Message 9


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    Time: 07:47:36 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: 377
    From: "wakataka" <wakataka@charter.net>
    One of the advantages of fan cooled engines is that the cylinder temps stay more uniform. A free air engine cools down a lot more than a fan cooled engine while at low throttle on approach. When you throttle down a fan cooled engine, the fan slows down and the airflow across the cylinders decreases, so the engine stays warmer longer. This is particularly important if you are doing touch and go type flying. Cold seizures can occur when you got to full throttle after a long approach. The aluminum piston heats up faster than the steel cylinder, expands, and smears itself all over the cylinder walls. So even if you could get the CHT to be within spec at full throttle, there is still a good reason to stick with fan cooling. -------- There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact. Mark Twain Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394541#394541


    Message 10


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    Time: 08:23:07 PM PST US
    From: herb <herbgh@nctc.com>
    Subject: Re: 377
    Wouldn't it be a good idea to block the air flow across the cylinders on descent? Some sort of venetian blind type of contraption? Also , rather than taping the radiator...a venetian blind mechanism with 0 to 100% blockage on the radiator of the 582 and 618 seems appropriate.. Herb On 02/18/2013 09:46 PM, wakataka wrote: > > One of the advantages of fan cooled engines is that the cylinder temps stay more uniform. A free air engine cools down a lot more than a fan cooled engine while at low throttle on approach. When you throttle down a fan cooled engine, the fan slows down and the airflow across the cylinders decreases, so the engine stays warmer longer. This is particularly important if you are doing touch and go type flying. Cold seizures can occur when you got to full throttle after a long approach. The aluminum piston heats up faster than the steel cylinder, expands, and smears itself all over the cylinder walls. So even if you could get the CHT to be within spec at full throttle, there is still a good reason to stick with fan cooling. > > -------- > There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact. > > Mark Twain > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394541#394541 > >


    Message 11


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    Time: 09:14:17 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: 377
    From: "wakataka" <wakataka@charter.net>
    After two cold seizures, I tried to build something like that for my free air 277, but the vibration from that little beast kept tearing apart whatever design I came up with. I finally solved the problem by having the cylinder honed out about 0.003 larger than factory spec and running a main jet 2 steps richer than spec. I'm also very careful not to go to full throttle immediately after a long descent at idle. On a touch and go, I'll usually take off with about 3/4 throttle and wait until the CHT gets up to 250 before going to full throttle. -------- There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact. Mark Twain Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394547#394547




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