---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 08/05/13: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 09:10 AM - Re: Need explanation of fuel system w/dual 5gal pickups (dsmithlib) 2. 12:17 PM - Re: Re: Need explanation of fuel system w/dual 5gal pickups (Rick Neilsen) 3. 03:45 PM - Re: Re: Need explanation of fuel system w/dual 5gal pickups (Jim Baker) 4. 03:46 PM - Re: rides last evening (Rick Lewis) 5. 07:35 PM - Re: Re: Need explanation of fuel system w/dual 5gal pickups (Richard Girard) 6. 07:53 PM - Re: Re: Upgrading from 503 to 582 on Mark III (Dennis Rowe) 7. 08:26 PM - Re: Re: Need explanation of fuel system w/dual 5gal pickups (Jim Baker) 8. 08:29 PM - Re: Upgrading from 503 to 582 on Mark III (lownslow) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 09:10:55 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Need explanation of fuel system w/dual 5gal pickups From: "dsmithlib" Thank you to all for replying. >From what I have learned here...... I will... use individual pickups from the top then connect with a T then go to a filter then to a elec facet pump then to the pulse pump I will T off at some point for primer They will be well vented but I am not sure how I will plumb the vents at this moment......sounds like they will also get T'd and then plumbed overboard. Thank you ! Thank you ! Thank you ! -------- Dave Smith RV7 Flying Kolb Firestar II (in-progress) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=405973#405973 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:17:21 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Need explanation of fuel system w/dual 5gal pickups From: Rick Neilsen I keep hearing people say they don't want to put the fuel pickup on the bottom of their tanks. I don't understand their issues. I have been flying my VW powered MKIIIC for fifteen years. I use the press fit bushings in the standard Kolb plastic tanks and have never had a seeping fuel issue. About 7-8 years ago I replaced the tanks just to be safe and again no issues. I now have the 6 gallon tanks ready to install and yes I have drilled the bottoms and installed the press fit bushings. I insert a fitting that has a finger strainer and shut off valve. My theory is feeding fuel from the bottom is the most reliable way to get fuel to my engine because there are fewer things that can go wrong. Fuel feeds evenly from both tanks and if one tank gets filled more than the other they will equalize in time. Again I have never had a press fit bushing leak but I have had a fuel line leak. When the fuel line developed a leak it was dangerous but it didn't cause a engine failure like would have happened if I was feeding from the top of the tanks. I did notice a fuel smell that got me looking. It would seem that fuel seepage would be the worst case problem for bottom feed. If you top feed and you get even a minor air leak you wouldn't know till engine start or worst case in the air. I use a stepped drill bit to drill the hole in the plastic fuel tanks for the fuel bushings. I think they drill a more rounded hole in thin plastic. Then I very carefully debur the holes. I tee the fuel tanks together. I have flown many different GA airplanes that have fuel selectors and they are a pain. Something else that you HAVE to do. On low wing airplanes with wing tanks, where it is necessary it is a necessary evil, it is ok. Why add something like a fuel selector that adds to the work load and is a potential problem? Just my opinion. As always this is worth what you paid for it. Rick Neilsen 1st Redrive VW powered MKIIIC On Sun, Aug 4, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Frankd wrote: > > Hi Dave, > > I have the two tank system in my MkIII Xtra. > The fuel pickup tubes go to the bottom of both tanks and I have connected > them with a T at the top and then this single fuel line I run down to a > fuel pump placed at the height of the bottom of the tanks. > > The trick is to initially suck fuel from BOTH tanks so there is no air in > the lines. > > Both 5Gal tanks are side by side so if one is full and one is half full > the fuel will eventually flow from the full to the lower until they are > equal. > My vent lines just plumb into the top of the tank and I run them up about > 6 inches and then down to the outside of the plane. In case I go inverted > the fuel will stay outside the aircraft. > > This system acts like one tank, no switching required. Just fill both up > equally and its fine. > I'm thinking of adding another 5 gal tank and may add a valve as a control > into the 1st two if I do that. > > Hope this helps. > > Oh, I also have two fuel filters, one just after the T at the top of the > tank and one on the fuel pump. No problems so far, 50Hrs flying. > > FrankD > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=405914#405914 > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:45:49 PM PST US From: "Jim Baker" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Need explanation of fuel system w/dual 5gal pickups X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.61) Murphy said it best - "Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong". Yours doesn't leak and hasn't leaked. That's not to say that at some time in the future it won't leak. The top plumbed units won't leak as yours might but still have a slight chance of leaking thru a cracked seam or some other mechanism. There is no advantage to top plumbed except possibly access and maintenance. Top plumbed allows me to but a bronze filtered clunk at the bottom of the tank standpipe without having to pull the tank out. All maintenance can be done with the tank as is, where is. Either methodology, top or bottom, will work, just depends on your point of view. I've had the same tanks for 18 years. There was never a time when I doubted the integrity of fuel delivery methodology chosen. Personal choice, not a denouncement. Date sent: Mon, 5 Aug 2013 15:17:02 -0400 Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Need explanation of fuel system w/dual 5gal pickups From: Rick Neilsen To: kolb-list@matronics.com Send reply to: kolb-list@matronics.com > > I keep hearing people say they don't want to put the fuel pickup on the bottom of their tanks. I > don't understand their issues. I have been flying my VW powered MKIIIC for fifteen years. I use > the press fit bushings in the standard Kolb plastic tanks and have never had a seeping fuel > issue. About 7-8 years ago I replaced the tanks just to be safe and again no issues. I now have > the 6 gallon tanks ready to install and yes I have drilled the bottoms and installed the press fit > bushings. I insert a fitting that has a finger strainer and shut off valve. > > My theory is feeding fuel from the bottom is the most reliable way to get fuel to my engine > because there are fewer things that can go wrong. Fuel feeds evenly from both tanks and if one > tank gets filled more than the other they will equalize in time. Again I have never had a press fit > bushing leak but I have had a fuel line leak. When the fuel line developed a leak it was > dangerous but it didn't cause a engine failure like would have happened if I was feeding from the > top of the tanks. I did notice a fuel smell that got me looking. It would seem that fuel seepage > would be the worst case problem for bottom feed. If you top feed and you get even a minor air > leak you wouldn't know till engine start or worst case in the air. > > I use a stepped drill bit to drill the hole in the plastic fuel tanks for the fuel bushings. I think they > drill a more rounded hole in thin plastic. Then I very carefully debur the holes. > > I tee the fuel tanks together. I have flown many different GA airplanes that have fuel selectors > and they are a pain. Something else that you HAVE to do. On low wing airplanes with wing > tanks, where it is necessary it is a necessary evil, it is ok. Why add something like a fuel selector > that adds to the work load and is a potential problem? > > Just my opinion. As always this is worth what you paid for it. > > Rick Neilsen > 1st Redrive VW powered MKIIIC > > On Sun, Aug 4, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Frankd wrote: > > Hi Dave, > > I have the two tank system in my MkIII Xtra. > The fuel pickup tubes go to the bottom of both tanks and I have connected them with a T at > the top and then this single fuel line I run down to a fuel pump placed at the height of the > bottom of the tanks. > > The trick is to initially suck fuel from BOTH tanks so there is no air in the lines. > > Both 5Gal tanks are side by side so if one is full and one is half full the fuel will eventually > flow from the full to the lower until they are equal. > My vent lines just plumb into the top of the tank and I run them up about 6 inches and then > down to the outside of the plane. In case I go inverted the fuel will stay outside the aircraft. > > This system acts like one tank, no switching required. Just fill both up equally and its > fine. > I'm thinking of adding another 5 gal tank and may add a valve as a control into the 1st two > if I do that. > > Hope this helps. > > Oh, I also have two fuel filters, one just after the T at the top of the tank and one on the > fuel pump. No problems so far, 50Hrs flying. > > FrankD > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=405914#405914 > > > > > > > > ========== > arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > ========== > http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > le, List Admin. > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > _- =========================================================== > _- =========================================================== > _- =========================================================== > > Jim Baker Elmore City, OK 580.788.2779 home 405.426.5377 cell ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:46:39 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: rides last evening From: "Rick Lewis" Thanks Ralph, she looks like she's having a ball. Fun is what it's all about..... :D -------- Rick Lewis (VW Watercooled Engine) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406003#406003 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:35:31 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Need explanation of fuel system w/dual 5gal pickups From: Richard Girard When I decided to redo the fuel system in my Mk III I debated top or bottom draw. Then I pulled the old tanks out and the grommet was split almost to the fitting. Pushed me in favor of top draw, plus that was the factory recommendation. Since Mr. Murphy never sleeps, I had an engine out landing because I didn't have any sort of filter on the top pickups. Fixed that and never had another fuel problem. Venting. Something I haven't seen discussed on the forum is venting that will not become a drain if you inadvertently do a low altitude outside loop (flip over on landing). The LongEZ crowd recommends a vent design that includes a suction break to prevent such an occurrence. I never got it implemented, but I will during this rebuild. Just a thought. Rick Girard do not archive On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 5:45 PM, Jim Baker wrote: > ** > Murphy said it best - "Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong". > > Yours doesn't leak and hasn't leaked. That's not to say that at some > time in the future it won't leak. The top plumbed units won't leak as yours > might but still have a slight chance of leaking thru a cracked seam or some > other mechanism. > > There is no advantage to top plumbed except possibly access and > maintenance. Top plumbed allows me to but a bronze filtered clunk at the > bottom of the tank standpipe without having to pull the tank out. All > maintenance can be done with the tank as is, where is. Either methodology, > top or bottom, will work, just depends on your point of view. I've had the > same tanks for 18 years. There was never a time when I doubted the > integrity of fuel delivery methodology chosen. Personal choice, not a > denouncement. > > > Date sent: Mon, 5 Aug 2013 15:17:02 -0400 > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Need explanation of fuel > system w/dual 5gal pickups > From: Rick Neilsen > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Send reply to: kolb-list@matronics.com > > > > > I keep hearing people say they don't want to put the fuel pickup on the > bottom of their tanks. I > > don't understand their issues. I have been flying my VW powered MKIIIC > for fifteen years. I use > > the press fit bushings in the standard Kolb plastic tanks and have never > had a seeping fuel > > issue. About 7-8 years ago I replaced the tanks just to be safe and > again no issues. I now have > > the 6 gallon tanks ready to install and yes I have drilled the bottoms > and installed the press fit > > bushings. I insert a fitting that has a finger strainer and shut off > valve. > > > > My theory is feeding fuel from the bottom is the most reliable way to > get fuel to my engine > > because there are fewer things that can go wrong. Fuel feeds evenly from > both tanks and if one > > tank gets filled more than the other they will equalize in time. Again I > have never had a press fit > > bushing leak but I have had a fuel line leak. When the fuel line > developed a leak it was > > dangerous but it didn't cause a engine failure like would have happened > if I was feeding from the > > top of the tanks. I did notice a fuel smell that got me looking. It > would seem that fuel seepage > > would be the worst case problem for bottom feed. If you top feed and you > get even a minor air > > leak you wouldn't know till engine start or worst case in the air. > > > > I use a stepped drill bit to drill the hole in the plastic fuel tanks > for the fuel bushings. I think they > > drill a more rounded hole in thin plastic. Then I very carefully debur > the holes. > > > > I tee the fuel tanks together. I have flown many different GA airplanes > that have fuel selectors > > and they are a pain. Something else that you HAVE to do. On low wing > airplanes with wing > > tanks, where it is necessary it is a necessary evil, it is ok. Why add > something like a fuel selector > > that adds to the work load and is a potential problem? > > > > Just my opinion. As always this is worth what you paid for it. > > > > Rick Neilsen > > 1st Redrive VW powered MKIIIC > > > > On Sun, Aug 4, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Frankd wrote: > > > > Hi Dave, > > > > I have the two tank system in my MkIII Xtra. > > The fuel pickup tubes go to the bottom of both tanks and I have > connected them with a T at > > the top and then this single fuel line I run down to a fuel pump > placed at the height of the > > bottom of the tanks. > > > > The trick is to initially suck fuel from BOTH tanks so there is no > air in the lines. > > > > Both 5Gal tanks are side by side so if one is full and one is half > full the fuel will eventually > > flow from the full to the lower until they are equal. > > My vent lines just plumb into the top of the tank and I run them up > about 6 inches and then > > down to the outside of the plane. In case I go inverted the fuel > will stay outside the aircraft. > > > > This system acts like one tank, no switching required. Just fill > both up equally and its > > fine. > > I'm thinking of adding another 5 gal tank and may add a valve as a > control into the 1st two > > if I do that. > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > Oh, I also have two fuel filters, one just after the T at the top of > the tank and one on the > > fuel pump. No problems so far, 50Hrs flying. > > > > FrankD > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=405914#405914 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ========== > > arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > > ========== > > http://forums.matronics.com > > ========== > > le, List Admin. > > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ========== > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > > > > > > > Jim Baker > Elmore City, OK > 580.788.2779 home > 405.426.5377 cell > > > * > > * > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:46 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Upgrading from 503 to 582 on Mark III From: Dennis Rowe You'll be fine, moving a 670 rearward a little shouldn't cause any CG issues as it is much lighter than 912s and VW engines many are using. Dennis "Skid" Rowe Mk3, 690L-70, Leechburg, PA On Aug 4, 2013, at 11:30 PM, "lownslow" wrote: > > can I throw another question out there? I am putting a "Rotax Rick" 670 on a Classic Mark III and I'm wondering if I am OK with an E gearbox(after seeing the comment regarding having to move the 582 mount back 3/4" to clear the starter going from the 503 to the 582 > > any thoughts? am I ok with the E gearbox? > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=405945#405945 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:26:15 PM PST US From: "Jim Baker" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Need explanation of fuel system w/dual 5gal pickups X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.61) I generally recommend a sintered bronze filter as a clunk on the bottom of the standpipe. For those unfamiliar with the term clunk, comes from the radio control world where the fuel pickup was guided by G forces to follow the fuel's location in the tank. It's close enough to the bottom of the tank that should the filter-hose- standpipe connection be compromised you'll still draw fuel from the standpipe, it just won't be filtered and you won't get that last little bit out of the tank. If you're flying that close to the edge....well...... Date sent: Mon, 5 Aug 2013 21:35:18 -0500 Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Need explanation of fuel system w/dual 5gal pickups From: Richard Girard To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" Send reply to: kolb-list@matronics.com > > When I decided to redo the fuel system in my Mk III I debated top or bottom draw. Then I pulled > the old tanks out and the grommet was split almost to the fitting. Pushed me in favor of top draw, > plus that was the factory recommendation. Since Mr. Murphy never sleeps, I had an engine out > landing because I didn't have any sort of filter on the top pickups. Fixed that and never had > another fuel problem. > Venting. Something I haven't seen discussed on the forum is venting that will not become a drain > if you inadvertently do a low altitude outside loop (flip over on landing). The LongEZ crowd > recommends a vent design that includes a suction break to prevent such an occurrence. I never > got it implemented, but I will during this rebuild. Just a thought. > > Rick Girard > do not archive > > > > On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 5:45 PM, Jim Baker wrote: > Murphy said it best - "Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong". > > Yours doesn't leak and hasn't leaked. That's not to say that at some time in the future it > won't leak. The top plumbed units won't leak as yours might but still have a slight chance of > leaking thru a cracked seam or some other mechanism. > > There is no advantage to top plumbed except possibly access and maintenance. Top > plumbed allows me to but a bronze filtered clunk at the bottom of the tank standpipe > without having to pull the tank out. All maintenance can be done with the tank as is, where > is. Either methodology, top or bottom, will work, just depends on your point of view. I've had > the same tanks for 18 years. There was never a time when I doubted the integrity of fuel > delivery methodology chosen. Personal choice, not a denouncement. > > > > > Date sent:Mon, 5 Aug 2013 15:17:02 -0400 > Subject:Re: Kolb-List: Re: Need explanation of fuel system w/dual 5gal > pickups > From:Rick Neilsen > To:kolb-list@matronics.com > Send reply to:kolb-list@matronics.com > > > > > I keep hearing people say they don't want to put the fuel pickup on the bottom of their > tanks. I > > don't understand their issues. I have been flying my VW powered MKIIIC for fifteen > years. I use > > the press fit bushings in the standard Kolb plastic tanks and have never had a seeping > fuel > > issue. About 7-8 years ago I replaced the tanks just to be safe and again no issues. I > now have > > the 6 gallon tanks ready to install and yes I have drilled the bottoms and installed the > press fit > > bushings. I insert a fitting that has a finger strainer and shut off valve. > > > > My theory is feeding fuel from the bottom is the most reliable way to get fuel to my engine > > because there are fewer things that can go wrong. Fuel feeds evenly from both tanks and > if one > > tank gets filled more than the other they will equalize in time. Again I have never had a > press fit > > bushing leak but I have had a fuel line leak. When the fuel line developed a leak it was > > dangerous but it didn't cause a engine failure like would have happened if I was feeding > from the > > top of the tanks. I did notice a fuel smell that got me looking. It would seem that fuel > seepage > > would be the worst case problem for bottom feed. If you top feed and you get even a > minor air > > leak you wouldn't know till engine start or worst case in the air. > > > > I use a stepped drill bit to drill the hole in the plastic fuel tanks for the fuel bushings. I > think they > > drill a more rounded hole in thin plastic. Then I very carefully debur the holes. > > > > I tee the fuel tanks together. I have flown many different GA airplanes that have fuel > selectors > > and they are a pain. Something else that you HAVE to do. On low wing airplanes with > wing > > tanks, where it is necessary it is a necessary evil, it is ok. Why add something like a fuel > selector > > that adds to the work load and is a potential problem? > > > > Just my opinion. As always this is worth what you paid for it. > > > > Rick Neilsen > > 1st Redrive VW powered MKIIIC > > > > On Sun, Aug 4, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Frankd wrote: > > > > Hi Dave, > > > > I have the two tank system in my MkIII Xtra. > > The fuel pickup tubes go to the bottom of both tanks and I have connected them with a > T at > > the top and then this single fuel line I run down to a fuel pump placed at the height of > the > > bottom of the tanks. > > > > The trick is to initially suck fuel from BOTH tanks so there is no air in the lines. > > > > Both 5Gal tanks are side by side so if one is full and one is half full the fuel will > eventually > > flow from the full to the lower until they are equal. > > My vent lines just plumb into the top of the tank and I run them up about 6 inches and > then > > down to the outside of the plane. In case I go inverted the fuel will stay outside the > aircraft. > > > > This system acts like one tank, no switching required. Just fill both up equally and its > > fine. > > I'm thinking of adding another 5 gal tank and may add a valve as a control into the 1st > two > > if I do that. > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > Oh, I also have two fuel filters, one just after the T at the top of the tank and one on > the > > fuel pump. No problems so far, 50Hrs flying. > > > > FrankD > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=405914#405914 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ========== > > arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > > ========== > > http://forums.matronics.com > > ========== > > le, List Admin. > > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ========== > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > > > > > > > Jim Baker > Elmore City, OK > 580.788.2779 home > 405.426.5377 cell > > > > get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > > > > > -- > Zulu Delta > Mk IIIC > Thanks, Homer GBYM > > It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. > - Groucho Marx > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > _- =========================================================== > _- =========================================================== > _- =========================================================== > > Jim Baker Elmore City, OK 580.788.2779 home 405.426.5377 cell ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:29:31 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Upgrading from 503 to 582 on Mark III From: "lownslow" awesome Dennis, thanks so much, sir! I figured that was the case but wanted to be sure. I appreciate it! 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