---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 05/23/14: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 11:09 AM - Re: Xtra Control Problems (Richard Pike) 2. 11:55 AM - Re: Re: Xtra Control Problems (b young) 3. 12:58 PM - Change of Address (Pat Ladd) 4. 07:41 PM - Re: Re: Xtra Control Problems (GARY JINDRA) 5. 07:51 PM - Re: Xtra Control Problems (Brad Nation) 6. 08:08 PM - Re: Re: Xtra Control Problems (Brad Nation) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 11:09:35 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Xtra Control Problems From: "Richard Pike" Do the basics first: are the wings at the same angle of incidence to each other? Is one of them more forward compared to the other one, is one of them swept back? Is the engine at the right thrust angle and aligned with the center line of the airplane? If the answer to all of those questions is yes, it ought to be very flyable, but out of trim. If I remember right, (HAH) with a 582, and no trim tabs, it will want to roll left and yaw right, and with a 912 it is exactly the opposite. Or maybe I've got that backwards... Anyway, that is normal, and easily compensated for during the test flights. Imagine it being a toy glider and you gently toss it straight ahead - will it continue to go straight ahead, or is it going to immediately turn or roll? You determine all those things by checking the alignment and angle of the various flying surfaces. Checking for uncommanded roll is as easy as taking a couple of long pieces of pvc pipe and strapping them snugly to the underside of each wing, then stand off to one side and look at it - if the pipes are not parallel, you will have a tendency to roll toward the side that has the down pointed pipe. As far as not wanting to stay on the runway - are the wheels aligned with each other and with the center line of the airplane? If they are not, you might be able to deal with it on a grass strip, but not on asphalt, it will be very squirrely. I would take the trim tabs off of it, or at least bend them in line with the control surface. A trim tab at 90 degrees to the control surface is non-functional, and probably very counterproductive; you have no idea what it might do or what your results might be, but they would probably not be good. I would not consider flying an airplane with a trim tab at 90 degrees. All that tells you is that someone else had major trim problems with it, and didn't know what he was doing as he started trying to fix it, because a trim tab at 90 degrees is nothing but a spoiler. And since it is a spoiler mounted to a movable surface, all bets are off. In any event, I would not consider flying it again until you are satisfied that all the control and flying surfaces are aligned properly. Also - and don't take this wrong, get a couple of friends who have homebuilt experience or have built flying model airplanes to oversee your measurements. It is easy to overlook simple things. Someone with a good eye for spotting angles and alignments or something that just doesn't look right is invaluable at a time like this. -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 My soul shall be joyful in the LORD; It shall rejoice in His salvation. Psalm 35:9 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423657#423657 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 11:55:43 AM PST US From: "b young" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Xtra Control Problems Richard I think you got it all right. I would add to check the alignment of the landing gear, get a straight edge (board, pipe, angle, etc.) something that you can mount to the back of each wheel at axel height,,,, then using a carpenter square, align one side with the strait edge and measure to the front and back of the rims side along the second side of the square, I dont know what type of landing gear legs you have or how flexible or ridged they are, so my rule of thumb is,,,, the stiffer the gear legs are the closer to neutral the wheels should be,,, with more spring in the gear you may need a bit more toe in. what you need when you are finished is wheels that are straight when you are rolling forward at speed. and that is something you learn by feel/ trial and error,,, unless someone with the same gear has done the work and will share with you. a while back I determined that I had too much toe in and took it out to neutral. big mistake,,, it was worse than when I started,,, had to end up putting some back in to make it track straight. I have the solid tapered steel legs that kolb sold for a while and ended up needing 0.6 deg toe in per side to make it roll smoothly.... different gear, different toe in. when you get it right it will surprise you how easy it is to track down the runway. check the archives,, I had posted some time ago, in fairly good detail, how I got my gear tracking good. boyd young >>>>>>>>>>>> In any event, I would not consider flying it again until you are satisfied that all the control and flying surfaces are aligned properly. Also - and don't take this wrong, get a couple of friends who have homebuilt experience or have built flying model airplanes to oversee your measurements. It is easy to overlook simple things. Someone with a good eye for spotting angles and alignments or something that just doesn't look right is invaluable at a time like this. -------- Richard Pike --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:58:50 PM PST US From: "Pat Ladd" Subject: Kolb-List: Change of Address Please change my e mail address to patrickjladd@hotmail.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:41:59 PM PST US From: GARY JINDRA Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Xtra Control Problems The tall landing gear from Kolb=C2-can be installed on the wrong side. Th ey are marked R and L. If installed backwards they would mess up ground rol l on asphalt=0A=0AGaryJindra=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=0A=C2-Mark 3C=0A912 =C2-80hp=0A215=C2-hrs.=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2 -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2 -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2 -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2 -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2 -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2 -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2 -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2 -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2 -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =0A=0A=0AOn Friday, May 23, 2014 2:54 PM, b young =0A=0ARichard I think you got it all right.=0A=0AI would ad d to check the alignment of the landing gear,=C2- =C2- get a straight =0Aedge (board, pipe, angle, etc.)=C2- something that you can mount to th e back of =0Aeach wheel at axel height,,,,=C2- then using a carpenter squ are,=C2- align one =0Aside with the strait edge and measure to the front and back of the rims side =0Aalong the second side of the square,=C2- =C2 - I don=99t know what type of landing =0Agear legs you have or how flexible or ridged they are,=C2- =C2- so my rule of =0Athumb is,,,,=C2 - the stiffer the gear legs are the closer to neutral=C2- the =0Awheels should be,,,=C2- with more spring in the gear you may need a bit more =0Atoe in.=C2- =C2- what you need when you are finished is wheels that are straight =0Awhen you are rolling forward at speed.=C2- =C2- and th at is something you learn by =0Afeel/ trial and error,,,=C2- unless someo ne with the same gear has done the =0Awork and will share with you.=C2- a while back I determined that I had too =0Amuch toe in and took it out to neutral.=C2- big mistake,,,=C2- it was worse than =0Awhen I started,,, =C2- had to end up putting some back in to make it track =0Astraight.=C2 - I have the solid tapered steel legs that kolb sold for a while =0Aand ended up needing 0.6 deg toe in per side to make it roll smoothly.... =0Adi fferent gear, different toe in.=C2- =C2- when you get it right it will surprise =0Ayou how easy it is to track down the runway.=0A=0Acheck the arc hives,,=C2- I had posted some time ago, in fairly good detail, =0Ahow I got my gear tracking good.=0A=0Aboyd young=0A=0A>>>>>>>>>>>>=0A=0AIn any ev ent, I would not consider flying it again until you are satisfied =0Athat a ll the control and flying surfaces are aligned properly. Also - and =0Adon' t take this wrong, get a couple of friends who have homebuilt experience =0Aor have built flying model airplanes to oversee your measurements. It is =0Aeasy to overlook simple things. Someone with a good eye for spotting an gles =0Aand alignments or something that just doesn't look right is invalua ble at a =0Atime like this.=0A=0A--------=0ARichard Pike =0A=0A=0A---=0AThi s email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protectio =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2 =============== ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:51:52 PM PST US From: Brad Nation Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Xtra Control Problems That seems to be the consensus of everyone who looks at the tabs, more drag than anything else. As for the toe in/out, no, not yet. Suggestions? Brad On May 22, 2014, at 21:43 , B Young wrote: > Trim tabs at 90 deg.... I don't understand,, tab deflected that far should stall and not work as needed.. or intended.. what is your toe in / out measurements? Duo you know how to get accurate measurements? > > Boyd > > > > Brad ___________________________ =93Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.=94 -- President Ronald Reagan ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:08:13 PM PST US From: Brad Nation Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Xtra Control Problems The thing is that it seemed to fly just fine when I flew with the previous owner before I bought it. About a month later after it=92s annual I then trailered it back to Albuquerque from Plano Texas. So I don=92t understand how it got to its present condition. Yellow Bird 1 Brad Nation MKIII Xtra N952DK On May 23, 2014, at 20:41 , GARY JINDRA wrote: > The tall landing gear from Kolb can be installed on the wrong side. They are marked R and L. If installed backwards they would mess up ground roll on asphalt > > GaryJindra > Mark 3C > 912 80hp > 215 hrs. ; > > > On Friday, May 23, 2014 2:54 PM, b young wrote: > > > > Richard I think you got it all right. > > I would add to check the alignment of the landing gear, get a straight > edge (board, pipe, angle, etc.) something that you can mount to the back of > each wheel at axel height,,,, then using a carpenter square, align one > side with the strait edge and measure to the front and back of the rims side > along the second side of the square, I don=92t know what type of landing > gear legs you have or how flexible or ridged they are, so my rule of > thumb is,,,, the stiffer the gear legs are the closer to neutral the > wheels should be,,, with more spring in the gear you may need a bit more > toe in. what you need when you are finished is wheels that are straight > when you are rolling forward at speed. and that is something you learn by > feel/ trial and error,,, unless someone with the same gear has done the > work and will share with you. a while back I determined that I had too > much toe in and took it out to neutral. big mistake,,, it was worse than > when I started,,, had to end up putting some back in to make it track > straight. I have the solid tapered steel legs that kolb sold for a while > and ended up needing 0.6 deg toe in per side to make it roll smoothly.... > different gear, different toe in. when you get it right it will surprise > you how easy it is to track down the runway. > > check the archives,, I had posted some time ago, in fairly good detail, > how I got my gear tracking good. > > boyd young > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > In any event, I would not consider flying it again until you are satisfied > that all the control and flying surfaces are aligned properly. Also - and > don't take this wrong, get a couple of friends who have homebuilt experience > or have built flying model airplanes to oversee your measurements. It is > easy to overlook simple things. Someone with a good eye for spotting angles > and alignments or something that just doesn't look right is invaluable at a > time like this. > > -------- > Richard Pike > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! 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