Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 10:06 AM - Lithium Batteries (Rick Neilsen)
2. 11:08 AM - Re: Lithium Batteries (Richard Girard)
3. 12:27 PM - Re: Lithium Batteries (Rick Neilsen)
4. 01:31 PM - Re: Lithium Batteries (olendorf)
5. 02:42 PM - Re: Lithium Batteries (209GS)
6. 05:02 PM - Re: Lithium Batteries (olendorf)
7. 05:41 PM - Re: Re: Lithium Batteries (Richard Girard)
8. 07:38 PM - Short Field Landings (Larlaeb)
9. 08:17 PM - Re: Short Field Landings (B Young)
10. 11:02 PM - Official Kolb-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
11. 11:06 PM - Official Kolb-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
12. 11:52 PM - Re: Short Field Landings (Dennis Rowe)
Message 1
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Subject: | Lithium Batteries |
We had a discussion last year about these batteries. As time goes on we are
getting more experience with them so please share your experience in your
airplane.
Some basic facts about these batteries are they are much lighter, smaller
and currently more expensive than equivalent lead acid batteries. They need
to be charged with a special balance charger at least infrequently to
achieve a long life.
Battery manufactures rate their batteries with two terms, amperage hours
(ah) and cold cranking amps (cca). I'm not sure these terms exactly equate
to lithium batteries but this is all we get. AH is the total energy in the
battery, CCA is the short time cold starting power or in third grade
analogy a big engine with a small fuel tank. With many products there are
some that may over state the performance/values of their products.
Impressions about Lithium batteries are that they are, voltage and
temperature sensitive. The Lithium batteries that are being sold as lead
acid replacements like mine are described as Lithium Iron Phosphate. The
claim is Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries don't catch on fire and don't do
other bad things???
I have very limited experience. My new Aerovoltz lithium iron phosphate
battery is rated at 15ah, 275cca, weighing 1.8lbs it cost $180 including
shipping. My old lead acid batteries were all 12ah with app 185cca weighing
12lbs. When I installed the new lithium battery I did the recommended top
off charge then turned off the master fuel valve and cranked five times for
5-10 seconds with a cool down (for the starter) with no change in cranking
speed or voltage. My old 12ah lead acid battery would drop off near the end
of the second crank. When I first got the lithium battery I was convinced
they forgot to put the guts in the battery case, it is that light. I always
kept a battery maintainer on my old lead acid battery because it was so low
in power and they do self discharge. With the tested power of the lithium
battery I will not be using the battery maintainer. I also don't know if
the maintainer is ok with lithium batteries. The manual with my Lithium
battery states that there is less than a 10% discharge per year. Also I
stated from memory that my plane weighs 587lbs empty, well opps that was
before the battery change and redrive upgrade. It now weighs 576lbs.
Redoing my weight and balance calculations
Please share your facts and label you "impressions" as such. Also if you
are debating with someone please read the others responses.
Rick Neilsen
1st Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Lithium Batteries |
Rick, As Charlie said there has been an ongoing discussion of Lithium
battery chemistry and products on the Aeroelectric Connection here on the
Matronics Lists.
The main issue for most of us is how long will a Li batt keep things
running if the electrical generation system on the aircraft goes down. When
Bob Nuckolls, AEC guru, put the question to ALL the manufacturers the
answers were vague. Claims of "lead acid battery equivalency" in particular
are meaningless.
One would expect that an 18 Amp hour battery would produce 18 amps for one
hour or 1 amp for 18 hours. This turned out not to be the case. While the
Li batts were great at cranking, their fall off to below workable limits,
say time to producing 10 volts at a 5 amp draw, was measured in minutes
rather than hours. Only one manufacturer was willing to work with Bob to
define and refine the technology. That work is ongoing as I type.
The general consensus of those following the discussion is that the
technology is premature for electrically dependent aircraft. As one fellow
put it, better to pocket the extra money, diet to lose 10 pounds, and stick
with SLA battery technology.
No personal attack intended or implied. As Joe Friday used to say, "Just
the facts".
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 12:05 PM, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm@gmail.com> wrote:
> We had a discussion last year about these batteries. As time goes on we
> are getting more experience with them so please share your experience in
> your airplane.
>
> Some basic facts about these batteries are they are much lighter, smaller
> and currently more expensive than equivalent lead acid batteries. They need
> to be charged with a special balance charger at least infrequently to
> achieve a long life.
>
> Battery manufactures rate their batteries with two terms, amperage hours
> (ah) and cold cranking amps (cca). I'm not sure these terms exactly equate
> to lithium batteries but this is all we get. AH is the total energy in the
> battery, CCA is the short time cold starting power or in third grade
> analogy a big engine with a small fuel tank. With many products there are
> some that may over state the performance/values of their products.
>
> Impressions about Lithium batteries are that they are, voltage and
> temperature sensitive. The Lithium batteries that are being sold as lead
> acid replacements like mine are described as Lithium Iron Phosphate. The
> claim is Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries don't catch on fire and don't do
> other bad things???
>
> I have very limited experience. My new Aerovoltz lithium iron phosphate
> battery is rated at 15ah, 275cca, weighing 1.8lbs it cost $180 including
> shipping. My old lead acid batteries were all 12ah with app 185cca weighing
> 12lbs. When I installed the new lithium battery I did the recommended top
> off charge then turned off the master fuel valve and cranked five times for
> 5-10 seconds with a cool down (for the starter) with no change in cranking
> speed or voltage. My old 12ah lead acid battery would drop off near the end
> of the second crank. When I first got the lithium battery I was convinced
> they forgot to put the guts in the battery case, it is that light. I
> always kept a battery maintainer on my old lead acid battery because it was
> so low in power and they do self discharge. With the tested power of the
> lithium battery I will not be using the battery maintainer. I also don't
> know if the maintainer is ok with lithium batteries. The manual with my
> Lithium battery states that there is less than a 10% discharge per year.
> Also I stated from memory that my plane weighs 587lbs empty, well opps that
> was before the battery change and redrive upgrade. It now weighs 576lbs.
> Redoing my weight and balance calculations
>
> Please share your facts and label you "impressions" as such. Also if you
> are debating with someone please read the others responses.
>
> Rick Neilsen
> 1st Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Lithium Batteries |
Richard
No offence taken. It would be good to know the batteries tested. Amp hour
isn't just a arbitrary term. If a battery isn't performing to that standard
we need to know about it. I'm not in denial, lithium batteries are known
for their long term power levels. Cell phone, laptop, drill, or electric
car manufactures would test and go else where if the long term power was as
you imply are a fraction of lead acid power (not a fact but seems logical).
My plane was never designed to run for hours without an alternator. Seems
like my multi coil ignition system can draw up to 20 amps so it was never
expected to keep the engine running very long on battery. The testing I did
with my lithium battery seems to say that it would keep my plane flying
longer than the old lead acid battery would. I built my plane with the best
parts I could buy (this side of Rotax) and built in as much redundancy as
is possible when reliability is in question and my fly wheel mounted
alternator isn't something I worry about. As for losing weight that has
been difficult for me so loosing 10 lbs in my plane is important.
Still looking for those FACTS.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 2:08 PM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com> wrote:
> Rick, As Charlie said there has been an ongoing discussion of Lithium
> battery chemistry and products on the Aeroelectric Connection here on the
> Matronics Lists.
> The main issue for most of us is how long will a Li batt keep things
> running if the electrical generation system on the aircraft goes down. When
> Bob Nuckolls, AEC guru, put the question to ALL the manufacturers the
> answers were vague. Claims of "lead acid battery equivalency" in particular
> are meaningless.
> One would expect that an 18 Amp hour battery would produce 18 amps for one
> hour or 1 amp for 18 hours. This turned out not to be the case. While the
> Li batts were great at cranking, their fall off to below workable limits,
> say time to producing 10 volts at a 5 amp draw, was measured in minutes
> rather than hours. Only one manufacturer was willing to work with Bob to
> define and refine the technology. That work is ongoing as I type.
> The general consensus of those following the discussion is that the
> technology is premature for electrically dependent aircraft. As one fellow
> put it, better to pocket the extra money, diet to lose 10 pounds, and stick
> with SLA battery technology.
> No personal attack intended or implied. As Joe Friday used to say, "Just
> the facts".
>
> Rick Girard
> do not archive
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 12:05 PM, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> We had a discussion last year about these batteries. As time goes on we
>> are getting more experience with them so please share your experience in
>> your airplane.
>>
>> Some basic facts about these batteries are they are much lighter, smaller
>> and currently more expensive than equivalent lead acid batteries. They need
>> to be charged with a special balance charger at least infrequently to
>> achieve a long life.
>>
>> Battery manufactures rate their batteries with two terms, amperage hours
>> (ah) and cold cranking amps (cca). I'm not sure these terms exactly equate
>> to lithium batteries but this is all we get. AH is the total energy in the
>> battery, CCA is the short time cold starting power or in third grade
>> analogy a big engine with a small fuel tank. With many products there are
>> some that may over state the performance/values of their products.
>>
>> Impressions about Lithium batteries are that they are, voltage and
>> temperature sensitive. The Lithium batteries that are being sold as lead
>> acid replacements like mine are described as Lithium Iron Phosphate. The
>> claim is Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries don't catch on fire and don't do
>> other bad things???
>>
>> I have very limited experience. My new Aerovoltz lithium iron phosphate
>> battery is rated at 15ah, 275cca, weighing 1.8lbs it cost $180 including
>> shipping. My old lead acid batteries were all 12ah with app 185cca weighing
>> 12lbs. When I installed the new lithium battery I did
>> the recommended top off charge then turned off the master fuel valve and
>> cranked five times for 5-10 seconds with a cool down (for the starter) with
>> no change in cranking speed or voltage. My old 12ah lead acid battery would
>> drop off near the end of the second crank. When I first got the lithium
>> battery I was convinced they forgot to put the guts in the battery case, it
>> is that light. I always kept a battery maintainer on my old lead acid
>> battery because it was so low in power and they do self discharge. With the
>> tested power of the lithium battery I will not be using the battery
>> maintainer. I also don't know if the maintainer is ok with lithium
>> batteries. The manual with my Lithium battery states that there is less
>> than a 10% discharge per year. Also I stated from memory that my plane
>> weighs 587lbs empty, well opps that was before the battery change and
>> redrive upgrade. It now weighs 576lbs. Redoing my weight and balance
>> calculations
>>
>> Please share your facts and label you "impressions" as such. Also if you
>> are debating with someone please read the others responses.
>>
>> Rick Neilsen
>> 1st Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
>>
>> *
>>
>> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List>
>> tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Zulu Delta
> Mk IIIC
> Thanks, Homer GBYM
>
> It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
> - Groucho Marx
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Lithium Batteries |
I converted my motorcycle to lithium and figured out the hard way. I used to be
able to go 3 weeks between rides and my battery would be fine. With lithium I
can't go 4 days without putting it on a charger.
I think you'll find that they do NOT rate their batteries in AH like they should.
They usually use LEAD-equivalent AH rating. So perhaps they have a 5AH lithium
and that cranks the engine like a 15AH lead acid would they can call that
15AH Equivalent. Very misleading when you are trying to figure out how long
your battery will run your load when the engine stops. If you find one rated
in real Amp-hours then you're good to go.
--------
Scott Olendorf
Original Firestar, Rotax 447, Powerfin prop
Schenectady, NY
http://sites.google.com/site/kolbfirestar/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425869#425869
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Lithium Batteries |
I have one in my Honda 1800VTX motorcycle and it started up no problem after sitting
all winter, not sure why yours discharged in 4 days?
--------
Gerry Uebbing
Firestar II 503 b-box
(not flying yet)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425872#425872
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Lithium Batteries |
That I'm not so sure about either. There is definitely a constant draw on this
bike for some reason. A BMW f650gs, fuel injected with a clock. I don't know what
sucks the juice down. Not really the battery's fault but those AH are really
are important to me. Maybe I just have a defective battery. All I'm saying
is to be mindful of AH and pbeq AH.
--------
Scott Olendorf
Original Firestar, Rotax 447, Powerfin prop
Schenectady, NY
http://sites.google.com/site/kolbfirestar/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425883#425883
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Lithium Batteries |
Scott, Could there be a button cell, like a CR2032 somewhere that has
expired and the main battery is picking up the slack? Yeah, I know, it's
not Kolb, but the bandwidth on the site hasn't exactly been blazing lately.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 7:02 PM, olendorf <olendorf@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> That I'm not so sure about either. There is definitely a constant draw on
> this bike for some reason. A BMW f650gs, fuel injected with a clock. I
> don't know what sucks the juice down. Not really the battery's fault but
> those AH are really are important to me. Maybe I just have a defective
> battery. All I'm saying is to be mindful of AH and pbeq AH.
>
> --------
> Scott Olendorf
> Original Firestar, Rotax 447, Powerfin prop
> Schenectady, NY
> http://sites.google.com/site/kolbfirestar/
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425883#425883
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
Message 8
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Subject: | Short Field Landings |
Went out this morning and practiced landing a bit. I setup a camera to see what
it looked like from the ground side of things. There was basically no wind
at ground level and I placed the camera 400 feet from the threshold of the runway.
I seldom actually hit the threshold because there are power lines on that
end and they make me nervous. On all the landings power was set at idle
on the downwind and not touched until I was on the ground. All these were made
with full flaps. I'm sharing this not because I think I'm particularly good
at it as you can see, but because it was fun to do. Hopefully you won't find
it too boring.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BxdXwdWJkFExd2hiWE9fRDRjaXc/edit
Thanks,
Allan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425895#425895
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Short Field Landings |
I did the same thing years back,,, got so I could set it down within 20 to
30 ft. Every time. Probably should do it again. I liked the picture
in picture. What editing software?
Boyd Young
Do not archive
On Jul 1, 2014 8:40 PM, "Larlaeb" <larlaeb@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Went out this morning and practiced landing a bit. I setup a camera to
> see what it looked like from the ground side of things. There was
> basically no wind at ground level and I placed the camera 400 feet from the
> threshold of the runway. I seldom actually hit the threshold because
> there are power lines on that end and they make me nervous. On all the
> landings power was set at idle on the downwind and not touched until I was
> on the ground. All these were made with full flaps. I'm sharing this not
> because I think I'm particularly good at it as you can see, but because it
> was fun to do. Hopefully you won't find it too boring.
>
> https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BxdXwdWJkFExd2hiWE9fRDRjaXc/edit
>
>
> Thanks,
> Allan
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425895#425895
>
>
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-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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Subject: | Official Kolb-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the Kolb-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
Kolb-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Kolb-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Kolb-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Kolb-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Kolb-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Kolb-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Kolb-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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|
Subject: | Re: Short Field Landings |
Great looking bird.
Do not archive
Dennis "Skid" Rowe
Mk3, 690L-70, Leechburg, PA
> On Jul 1, 2014, at 10:38 PM, "Larlaeb" <larlaeb@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Went out this morning and practiced landing a bit. I setup a camera to see what
it looked like from the ground side of things. There was basically no wind
at ground level and I placed the camera 400 feet from the threshold of the
runway. I seldom actually hit the threshold because there are power lines on
that end and they make me nervous. On all the landings power was set at idle
on the downwind and not touched until I was on the ground. All these were
made with full flaps. I'm sharing this not because I think I'm particularly good
at it as you can see, but because it was fun to do. Hopefully you won't find
it too boring.
>
> https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BxdXwdWJkFExd2hiWE9fRDRjaXc/edit
>
>
> Thanks,
> Allan
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425895#425895
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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