---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 10/20/14: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:51 AM - M3X Roll Problems (Tony Malins) 2. 06:16 AM - Re: M3X Roll Problems (Tony Malins) 3. 06:52 AM - Re: M3X Roll Problems (Frank) 4. 07:22 AM - Re: M3X Roll Problems (John Hauck) 5. 08:23 AM - Re: M3X Roll Problems (Colin Hudson) 6. 02:39 PM - Re: GRT EIS for sale (crankpot) 7. 03:02 PM - UltraStar Project for sale (Beauford) 8. 03:32 PM - Re: M3X Roll Problems (Tony Malins) 9. 03:34 PM - Re: M3X Roll Problems (Tony Malins) 10. 04:35 PM - Re: M3X Roll Problems (pipercolt) 11. 04:46 PM - Re: Re: M3X Roll Problems (John Hauck) 12. 05:39 PM - Re: M3X Roll Problems (pipercolt) 13. 06:03 PM - Re: M3X Roll Problems () 14. 06:19 PM - Re: M3X Roll Problems (Tony Malins) 15. 06:40 PM - Re: Re: M3X Roll Problems (Dennis Rowe) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:51:32 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: M3X Roll Problems From: Tony Malins Test flying my Mark 3X after initial flutter problems found that flaperons were impossible to move in flight and all roll control was by secondary effect of rudder. Balance rods were fitted to balance tubes, but otherwise they appear normal on ground. Anyone had any similar issues? ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:16:52 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: M3X Roll Problems From: Tony Malins Further to this, I figure I've 'over-balanced' the ailerons as Kolb did not include the anti-flutter kit with mine and it only came to my attention through this forum. Maybe someone could send me pics of their balance rod installation as I'm thinking mine must extend too far forward of the hinge point. On 20 October 2014 22:51, Tony Malins wrote: > Test flying my Mark 3X after initial flutter problems found that flaperons > were impossible to move in flight and all roll control was by secondary > effect of rudder. Balance rods were fitted to balance tubes, but otherwise > they appear normal on ground. > > Anyone had any similar issues? > > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:52:19 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: M3X Roll Problems From: Frank Hi Tony, Don't know about the xtra , but on my MK3 the twin sticks were about 1&1/2 In.too long and when pushed forward and to one side or the other, The off side stick would hang up under the tube that runs from the panel and Back overhead that the windscreen Is mounted on. Causing the Ailerons to lock up. Hard to find the problem Because of my panic when aileron Control is lost. And my reluctance To voluntary enter that condition. For me a simple cure--I cut 1&1/2 Inches off the sticks. Hope your problem is as easily cured. Good luck Frank Sent from my iPhone On Oct 20, 2014, at 8:16 AM, Tony Malins wrote: > Further to this, I figure I've 'over-balanced' the ailerons as Kolb did no t include the anti-flutter kit with mine and it only came to my attention th rough this forum. Maybe someone could send me pics of their balance rod inst allation as I'm thinking mine must extend too far forward of the hinge point .. > > On 20 October 2014 22:51, Tony Malins wrote: >> Test flying my Mark 3X after initial flutter problems found that flaperon s were impossible to move in flight and all roll control was by secondary ef fect of rudder. Balance rods were fitted to balance tubes, but otherwise the y appear normal on ground. >> >> Anyone had any similar issues? >> >> >> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List >> tp://forums.matronics.com >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:22:26 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: M3X Roll Problems Tony M/Kolbers: The aileron counter balance rods are just that. They should extend far enough forward to balance the ailerons. Here is how I balanced my ailerons: -Disconnected the aileron push/pull tube at the aileron horn. -Adjusted the aileron counter balance rod fore and aft until it balanced the aileron. -Replaced the aileron push/pull tube at the aileron horn. Works for me. No aileron flutter after installation of aileron counter balance weights. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama Further to this, I figure I've 'over-balanced' the ailerons as Kolb did not include the anti-flutter kit with mine and it only came to my attention through this forum. Maybe someone could send me pics of their balance rod installation as I'm thinking mine must extend too far forward of the hinge point. On 20 October 2014 22:51, Tony Malins wrote: Test flying my Mark 3X after initial flutter problems found that flaperons were impossible to move in flight and all roll control was by secondary effect of rudder. Balance rods were fitted to balance tubes, but otherwise they appear normal on ground. Anyone had any similar issues? ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:23:12 AM PST US From: Colin Hudson Subject: Re: Kolb-List: M3X Roll Problems Tony you didn't state if you had dual controls or not. I changed from singl e control to duals in my X-tra and had the same problem. Moved easy on the g round but not in flight. Found too much play in the controls and a leverage problem with the duals. Went back to single control and flys like a dream a gain. Scott Hudson N424AL A/P Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 20, 2014, at 7:51 AM, Tony Malins wrote: > > Test flying my Mark 3X after initial flutter problems found that flaperons were impossible to move in flight and all roll control was by secondary eff ect of rudder. Balance rods were fitted to balance tubes, but otherwise they appear normal on ground. > > Anyone had any similar issues? > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:39:55 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: GRT EIS for sale From: "crankpot" Will this unit work with a cuyuna? I need rpm cht egt Thanks bob -------- 1984 kolb ultrstar Former 1997 kolb firestat Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=432089#432089 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:02:37 PM PST US From: "Beauford " Subject: Kolb-List: UltraStar Project for sale Subject: UltraStar Project for Sale. Contact: Mr. Chuck Moon, Wimauma, FL. CELL: 813-390 1222 Price: $1,500 This is a sale by third party following the death of the acft owner before he could complete the repair/restoration. Background: Ultrastar, in garage storage since approximately 2002. Suffered right wing damage when wooden prop disintegrated at cruise and the prop fragment passed upward through outer portion of wing. Engine was shut down and acft was successfully landed without further damage. Structural damage appears confined to aft portion of one rib, but fabric removal around damage will be required to verify. Airframe appears straight, with no observable, significant corrosion problems evident. Condition of fabric on remainder of airplane is unknown, but looks OK. The following YouTube link provides photos taken this week: http://youtu.be/Wp7j1wh7OSE Engine: Cuyuna (Carburetor is missing). Propeller requires replacement. Seasoned Kolbers on this list may remember The late Skip Staub, CDR, US. Navy, F8 Crusader driver extraordinaire and Kolb enthusiast. This Ultrastar was Skip's and he was flying it over Palmetto, FL when the prop failed. Beauford FF-076 Brandon, FL ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:32:42 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: M3X Roll Problems From: Tony Malins Thanks Frank. I suspect that is the problem. On 20 October 2014 23:52, Frank wrote: > Hi Tony, > Don't know about the xtra , but on my > MK3 the twin sticks were about 1&1/2 > In.too long and when pushed forward and to one side or the other, > The off side stick would hang up under > the tube that runs from the panel and > Back overhead that the windscreen > Is mounted on. Causing the Ailerons > to lock up. Hard to find the problem > Because of my panic when aileron > Control is lost. And my reluctance > To voluntary enter that condition. > For me a simple cure--I cut 1&1/2 > Inches off the sticks. > Hope your problem is as easily cured. > Good luck > Frank > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Oct 20, 2014, at 8:16 AM, Tony Malins wrote: > > Further to this, I figure I've 'over-balanced' the ailerons as Kolb did > not include the anti-flutter kit with mine and it only came to my attention > through this forum. Maybe someone could send me pics of their balance rod > installation as I'm thinking mine must extend too far forward of the hinge > point. > > On 20 October 2014 22:51, Tony Malins wrote: > >> Test flying my Mark 3X after initial flutter problems found that >> flaperons were impossible to move in flight and all roll control was by >> secondary effect of rudder. Balance rods were fitted to balance tubes, but >> otherwise they appear normal on ground. >> >> Anyone had any similar issues? >> >> * >> >> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List >> tp://forums.matronics.com >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> * >> >> > * > > ================================== > ://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > ================================== > cs.com > ================================== > matronics.com/contribution > ================================== > > * > > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:34:12 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: M3X Roll Problems From: Tony Malins Good thought Colin, I have dual controls..will check. On 21 October 2014 01:06, Colin Hudson wrote: > Tony you didn't state if you had dual controls or not. I changed from > single control to duals in my X-tra and had the same problem. Moved easy > on the ground but not in flight. Found too much play in the controls and a > leverage problem with the duals. Went back to single control and flys like > a dream again. > > Scott Hudson > N424AL > A/P > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Oct 20, 2014, at 7:51 AM, Tony Malins wrote: > > Test flying my Mark 3X after initial flutter problems found that flaperons > were impossible to move in flight and all roll control was by secondary > effect of rudder. Balance rods were fitted to balance tubes, but otherwise > they appear normal on ground. > > Anyone had any similar issues? > > * > > D============================================ > List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > D============================================ > //forums.matronics.com > D============================================ > ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > D============================================ > > * > > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:35:22 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: M3X Roll Problems From: "pipercolt" Do all mark 3 Kolbs require balance tubes? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=432098#432098 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:46:17 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: M3X Roll Problems Highly recommended. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama Do all mark 3 Kolbs require balance tubes? ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:39:37 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: M3X Roll Problems From: "pipercolt" I have rounded wingtips. Is there another option? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=432101#432101 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:03:33 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: M3X Roll Problems From: I just sold my Mark 3X with flaperons about 6 months ago and while the airplane has some very nice features, the roll control is not one of them. They are extremely heavy and quite ineffective. But that is typical of simple flaperons. Here are a few points to consider: The balances you are talking about are mass balances to control flutter. They have no measurable impact on control feel. Aerodynamic balances lighten the control forces and there are some pictures on the web of "spade" types on the M3X, I am not sure how well they have been tested. Spades work fine on sturdy ailerons like on aerobatic airplanes, but I am not sure the Kolb is meant for large control deflections. As John H likes to say, be careful making big changes to Homer's design. Note that the tube that is the forward spar of the flaperon looks like a torque tube at first but when you look at where the hinge points are you can see that it is actually in bending. To prove this you can move the flaperon to full travel using the mass balance and then gently twist in the same direction. You will see the tube bend with the stick at its stops. Like others I made a small change to get more mechanical advantage and lower the force, but I gave up aileron travel in the process. When you are flying the airplane you can move the linkage with enough force but the flaperon barely moves at all. This is because the tube is bending and absorbing most of the motion. As an aerospace designer, I can tell you that flaperons are compromises. They move together to lower stall speed, which mine did some, and differentially to roll the plane, which mine did poorly for the reasons mentioned above. Ailerons are very different. They have less area which makes them easier to move and it is way out on the wing where it produces relatively more roll control for a given deflection. If I were building a Kolb I would go with traditional ailerons. Jim On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 6:33 PM, Tony Malins wrote: > Good thought Colin, I have dual controls..will check. > > On 21 October 2014 01:06, Colin Hudson > wrote: > >> Tony you didn't state if you had dual controls or not. I changed from >> single control to duals in my X-tra and had the same problem. Moved easy >> on the ground but not in flight. Found too much play in the controls and a >> leverage problem with the duals. Went back to single control and flys like >> a dream again. >> >> Scott Hudson >> N424AL >> A/P >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Oct 20, 2014, at 7:51 AM, Tony Malins wrote: >> >> Test flying my Mark 3X after initial flutter problems found that >> flaperons were impossible to move in flight and all roll control was by >> secondary effect of rudder. Balance rods were fitted to balance tubes, but >> otherwise they appear normal on ground. >> >> Anyone had any similar issues? >> >> * >> >> D============================================ >> List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List >> D============================================ >> //forums.matronics.com >> D============================================ >> ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> D============================================ >> >> * >> >> * >> >> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List >> tp://forums.matronics.com >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> * >> >> > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:19:55 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: M3X Roll Problems From: Tony Malins Thanks James, a lot of good info to digest, but I'll work on this. On 21 October 2014 11:03, wrote: > I just sold my Mark 3X with flaperons about 6 months ago and while the > airplane has some very nice features, the roll control is not one of them. > They are extremely heavy and quite ineffective. But that is typical of > simple flaperons. > > Here are a few points to consider: > > The balances you are talking about are mass balances to control flutter. > They have no measurable impact on control feel. Aerodynamic balances > lighten the control forces and there are some pictures on the web of > "spade" types on the M3X, I am not sure how well they have been tested. > Spades work fine on sturdy ailerons like on aerobatic airplanes, but I am > not sure the Kolb is meant for large control deflections. As John H likes > to say, be careful making big changes to Homer's design. > > Note that the tube that is the forward spar of the flaperon looks like a > torque tube at first but when you look at where the hinge points are you > can see that it is actually in bending. To prove this you can move the > flaperon to full travel using the mass balance and then gently twist in the > same direction. You will see the tube bend with the stick at its stops. > Like others I made a small change to get more mechanical advantage and > lower the force, but I gave up aileron travel in the process. When you are > flying the airplane you can move the linkage with enough force but the > flaperon barely moves at all. This is because the tube is bending and > absorbing most of the motion. > > As an aerospace designer, I can tell you that flaperons are compromises. > They move together to lower stall speed, which mine did some, and > differentially to roll the plane, which mine did poorly for the reasons > mentioned above. Ailerons are very different. They have less area which > makes them easier to move and it is way out on the wing where it produces > relatively more roll control for a given deflection. > > If I were building a Kolb I would go with traditional ailerons. > > Jim > > On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 6:33 PM, Tony Malins wrote: > >> Good thought Colin, I have dual controls..will check. >> >> On 21 October 2014 01:06, Colin Hudson >> wrote: >> >>> Tony you didn't state if you had dual controls or not. I changed from >>> single control to duals in my X-tra and had the same problem. Moved easy >>> on the ground but not in flight. Found too much play in the controls and a >>> leverage problem with the duals. Went back to single control and flys like >>> a dream again. >>> >>> Scott Hudson >>> N424AL >>> A/P >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Oct 20, 2014, at 7:51 AM, Tony Malins wrote: >>> >>> Test flying my Mark 3X after initial flutter problems found that >>> flaperons were impossible to move in flight and all roll control was by >>> secondary effect of rudder. Balance rods were fitted to balance tubes, but >>> otherwise they appear normal on ground. >>> >>> Anyone had any similar issues? >>> >>> * >>> >>> D============================================ >>> List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List >>> D============================================ >>> //forums.matronics.com >>> D============================================ >>> ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>> D============================================ >>> >>> * >>> >>> * >>> >>> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List >>> tp://forums.matronics.com >>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>> >>> * >>> >>> >> * >> >> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List >> tp://forums.matronics.com >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> * >> >> > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:40:14 PM PST US From: Dennis Rowe Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: M3X Roll Problems Fly slower Dennis "Skid" Rowe Mk3, Rotax 670, Leechburg, PA > On Oct 20, 2014, at 8:39 PM, "pipercolt" wrote: > > > I have rounded wingtips. Is there another option? > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=432101#432101 > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.