Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:40 AM - Met Malcolm (Shadow94)
2. 03:48 AM - Re: Bourke engine (Patrick Ladd)
3. 05:29 AM - Re: Bourke engine (Herb)
4. 08:05 AM - Re: Bourke engine (undoctor)
5. 08:17 AM - Re: Bourke engine (Charlie England)
6. 08:26 AM - Re: Bourke engine (Charlie England)
7. 08:42 AM - Re: Bourke engine (Herb)
8. 08:44 AM - Re: Bourke engine (Rick Neilsen)
9. 08:57 AM - Wankel (Patrick Ladd)
10. 09:10 AM - Re: Bourke engine (undoctor)
11. 09:11 AM - Re: Bourke engine (Charlie England)
12. 09:31 AM - Re: Wankel (undoctor)
13. 09:41 AM - Re: Wankel (Gary Aman)
Message 1
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Had the opportunity to meet Malcolm Morrison, have lunch and talk Kolbs and airplanes.
It was nice to break up the bad weather and busy day by talking airplanes.
Can't wait for spring and flying season.
Thanks for taking time out of your day to meet me Malcolm.
Mark
--------
Mark
Twinstar MKII
Great Bend, PA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437687#437687
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Bourke engine |
<<Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was
introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than reciprocating
motion and very few moving parts?>>
I had a car with a Wankel engine. A beautiful car with the super smooth
non vibrating engine.It would run happily on very low grade petrol but
only gave about 25miles to the gallon. Acceleration was nothing to write
home about but the non reciprocating design made for super smooth
running. As you say the wearing of the ceramic tips of the three point
rotor was its downfall. Great pity. I remember that it had a manual gear
shift but no clutch pedal. The clutch was operated electrically when you
held the knob on the top of the gear stick. So the act of changing gear
automatically operated the clutch. It had a device which matched the
engine speed to the wheel speed when you changed gear.
There were several Wankel aero engines being played with a few years ago
but they seem to have fallen by the wayside. Pity, it had such promise.
Pat
From: Richard Girard
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 11:05 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine
Bourke built many examples of his engine for trucks, outboard motors,
and aircraft. They all worked, ran for hundreds of hours with little
wear to any parts, and produced the advertised horsepower. One of the
aircraft engines is in the EAA museum.
Like any engine the start up costs going into production would be
astronomical and for an aircraft engine then there are certification
costs. All for a small diminishing market. Sad to say it won't happen,
but that's the way it is.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 1:09 PM, undoctor <undoctor@ptd.net> wrote:
Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was
introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than reciprocating
motion and very few moving parts?
Good idea and it could spin very high revs. Problem is, they can't
keep the tips from wearing on the triangular piston, so very limited
application in the real world.
Also remember a ceramic engine on the drawing boards which was to
rival sliced bread for greatness. Haven't heard any more about that one.
That's OK. Just keep inventing, many out there ideas have been
successful.
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
Do not archive
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Charlie England
Date:01/25/2015 1:48 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine
<ceengland7@gmail.com>
On 1/25/2015 11:18 AM, william sullivan wrote:
<williamtsullivan@att.net>
>
> Click on various stuff in this link. My brother sent it to me,
thinking I'd be interested. With Rotax dropping the small 2-strokes,
there is a need for replacements. The weight to HP ratio looks pretty
good. Does anyone have any experience/comments on this one?
>
> http://www.bourke-engine.com/ani
>
>
I'd suggest finding an independent engineering evaluation. My
thoughts:
Consider how severe the imbalance will be with both pistons moving the
same direction, then how much the counterweight will weigh to
counteract
that force (without contributing any power). Then consider how long a
sliding line-contact sliding bearing is going to last when subjected
to
those forces. The claim is 1/4 pound (0.25 lb) per hp/hr. This is
better
by about 30% than the most efficient internal combustion engine ever
built, and it's still a 2 stroke engine. Isn't it a bit strange that a
design that's been around long enough for the patents to expire, and
is
super clean, and beats the best tech out there by 30%, hasn't taken
over
every engine market on the planet? And it uses 'detonation' to
extract
more energy from the fuel? What happens to a piston when you have
detonation in the combustion chamber? (Answer help: nothing good.)
Current technology in 4 strokes can come pretty close to the same
power/weight ratio as old tech 2 strokes. Just need someone to make
them
available at an affordable priceolb-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-Listhttp://www.
matronics.com=================
--
Believe those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it.
-Andre Gide
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Bourke engine |
Pat
If memory serves,I believe, Mazda has solved most of the technical
problems with the Wankel.
an early problem, from memory, came about when the factory decided to
use standard auto engine oil to lubricate the apex seals...and side
seals... That resulted in some necessary oil burning and a build up of
carbon... One can imagine the debate when engineers suggest that low
ash two stroke oil be used...?
The power and fuel consumption came from the two stroke design...
From my memory... Herb
On 01/27/2015 05:47 AM, Patrick Ladd wrote:
> <<Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was
> introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than
> reciprocating motion and very few moving parts?>>
> I had a car with a Wankel engine. A beautiful car with the super
> smooth non vibrating engine.It would run happily on very low grade
> petrol but only gave about 25miles to the gallon. Acceleration was
> nothing to write home about but the non reciprocating design made for
> super smooth running. As you say the wearing of the ceramic tips of
> the three point rotor was its downfall. Great pity. I remember that it
> had a manual gear shift but no clutch pedal. The clutch was operated
> electrically when you held the knob on the top of the gear stick. So
> the act of changing gear automatically operated the clutch. It had a
> device which matched the engine speed to the wheel speed when you
> changed gear.
> There were several Wankel aero engines being played with a few years
> ago but they seem to have fallen by the wayside. Pity, it had such
> promise.
> Pat
> *From:* Richard Girard <mailto:aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Sunday, January 25, 2015 11:05 PM
> *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com <mailto:kolb-list@matronics.com>
> *Subject:* Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine
> Bourke built many examples of his engine for trucks, outboard motors,
> and aircraft. They all worked, ran for hundreds of hours with little
> wear to any parts, and produced the advertised horsepower. One of the
> aircraft engines is in the EAA museum.
> Like any engine the start up costs going into production would be
> astronomical and for an aircraft engine then there are certification
> costs. All for a small diminishing market. Sad to say it won't happen,
> but that's the way it is.
> Rick Girard
> do not archive
> On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 1:09 PM, undoctor <undoctor@ptd.net
> <mailto:undoctor@ptd.net>> wrote:
>
> Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was
> introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than
> reciprocating motion and very few moving parts?
> Good idea and it could spin very high revs. Problem is, they can't
> keep the tips from wearing on the triangular piston, so very
> limited application in the real world.
> Also remember a ceramic engine on the drawing boards which was to
> rival sliced bread for greatness. Haven't heard any more about
> that one. That's OK. Just keep inventing, many out there ideas
> have been successful.
> Dave Kulp
> Bethlehem, PA
> Do not archive
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Charlie England
> Date:01/25/2015 1:48 PM (GMT-05:00)
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com <mailto:kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine
> <ceengland7@gmail.com <mailto:ceengland7@gmail.com>>
>
> On 1/25/2015 11:18 AM, william sullivan wrote:
> <williamtsullivan@att.net <mailto:williamtsullivan@att.net>>
> >
> > Click on various stuff in this link. My brother sent it to
> me, thinking I'd be interested. With Rotax dropping the small
> 2-strokes, there is a need for replacements. The weight to HP
> ratio looks pretty good. Does anyone have any experience/comments
> on this one?
> >
> > http://www.bourke-engine.com/ani
> >
> >
> I'd suggest finding an independent engineering evaluation. My
> thoughts:
> Consider how severe the imbalance will be with both pistons moving
> the
> same direction, then how much the counterweight will weigh to
> counteract
> that force (without contributing any power). Then consider how long a
> sliding line-contact sliding bearing is going to last when
> subjected to
> those forces. The claim is 1/4 pound (0.25 lb) per hp/hr. This is
> better
> by about 30% than the most efficient internal combustion engine ever
> built, and it's still a 2 stroke engine. Isn't it a bit strange
> that a
> design that's been around long enough for the patents to expire,
> and is
> super clean, and beats the best tech out there by 30%, hasn't
> taken over
> every engine market on the planet? And it uses 'detonation' to
> extract
> more energy from the fuel? What happens to a piston when you have
> detonation in the combustion chamber? (Answer help: nothing good.)
>
> Current technology in 4 strokes can come pretty close to the same
> power/weight ratio as old tech 2 strokes. Just need someone to
> make them
> available at an affordable priceolb-List"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-Listhttp://www.matronics.com=================
>
>
> --
> Believe those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it.
> -Andre Gide
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
> *
> *
>
>
> *
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Bourke engine |
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Bourke engine |
I'm currently installing a Mazda Renesis rotary in an RV-7, and know
quite a few people that are flying the Renesis and the older 13B/20B
engines quite successfully.
The engine is a true 4 stroke engine; not 2 stroke. But because of the
design, each rotor face goes through all 4 'strokes' in one complete
rotation of the rotor (but the rotor rotates at 1/3 of the rpm of the
eccentric shaft (crankshaft). Apex seal wear in a Wankel rotary hasn't
been a problem in over 30 years. Tracy Crook (recently retired from
building engine controllers and reduction drives) put about 900 hours in
an RV-4 on a junkyard 13B, and had barely measurable wear on any of the
seals at tear down (removed to install a Renesis in that airframe).
Sticking seals due to using crankcase oil to lube the apex seals can
still be a problem in some Mazda RX7/RX8 cars with some maintenance
practices (lack of). Racers (and aircraft installers) disable the supply
from the crankcase, and either add a source of 2 stroke oil to the apex
seal lube pump, or remove the pump and do a very light (3/4--1 oz per
gallon) 2 stroke oil premix with fuel. There's still regular automotive
oil in the crankcase. Fuel economy in the Mazda rotaries used in
aircraft is typically about 10% worse than a properly leaned Lycoming.
Since most Lyc drivers are afraid to lean properly, the real world fuel
economy is pretty close to the same as a Lyc.
There are some European sources of smaller Wankel designs (light enough
and with low enough HP to work on a Kolb) that are coming into more
common use, but it's rare to see them in the USA. In the 150-250 HP
range, no one's demonstrated another auto conversion engine that's as
light as the rotary and can stand up to the high duty cycle of a/c use.
My installation weighs ~320 lbs all-up, prior to adding fluids. This is
comparable to a Lyc 160 HP installation, but the Renesis is easily
capable of 190-210 HP in a/c use.
While the Bourke engine may 'work', the performance claims on that web
site are far outside the bounds of rational thought. It's not just a few
technical problems to overcome, like apex seal wear in a rotary. The
claims exceed what's achievable without violating the laws of
thermodynamics. :-)
Charlie
On 1/27/2015 7:29 AM, Herb wrote:
> Pat
>
> If memory serves,I believe, Mazda has solved most of the technical
> problems with the Wankel.
>
> an early problem, from memory, came about when the factory decided
> to use standard auto engine oil to lubricate the apex seals...and side
> seals... That resulted in some necessary oil burning and a build up
> of carbon... One can imagine the debate when engineers suggest that
> low ash two stroke oil be used...?
>
> The power and fuel consumption came from the two stroke design...
> From my memory... Herb
>
>
> On 01/27/2015 05:47 AM, Patrick Ladd wrote:
>> <<Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was
>> introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than
>> reciprocating motion and very few moving parts?>>
>> I had a car with a Wankel engine. A beautiful car with the super
>> smooth non vibrating engine.It would run happily on very low grade
>> petrol but only gave about 25miles to the gallon. Acceleration was
>> nothing to write home about but the non reciprocating design made for
>> super smooth running. As you say the wearing of the ceramic tips of
>> the three point rotor was its downfall. Great pity. I remember that
>> it had a manual gear shift but no clutch pedal. The clutch was
>> operated electrically when you held the knob on the top of the gear
>> stick. So the act of changing gear automatically operated the clutch.
>> It had a device which matched the engine speed to the wheel speed
>> when you changed gear.
>> There were several Wankel aero engines being played with a few years
>> ago but they seem to have fallen by the wayside. Pity, it had such
>> promise.
>> Pat
>> *From:* Richard Girard <mailto:aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Sunday, January 25, 2015 11:05 PM
>> *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com <mailto:kolb-list@matronics.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine
>> Bourke built many examples of his engine for trucks, outboard motors,
>> and aircraft. They all worked, ran for hundreds of hours with little
>> wear to any parts, and produced the advertised horsepower. One of the
>> aircraft engines is in the EAA museum.
>> Like any engine the start up costs going into production would be
>> astronomical and for an aircraft engine then there are certification
>> costs. All for a small diminishing market. Sad to say it won't
>> happen, but that's the way it is.
>> Rick Girard
>> do not archive
>> On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 1:09 PM, undoctor <undoctor@ptd.net
>> <mailto:undoctor@ptd.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was
>> introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than
>> reciprocating motion and very few moving parts?
>> Good idea and it could spin very high revs. Problem is, they
>> can't keep the tips from wearing on the triangular piston, so
>> very limited application in the real world.
>> Also remember a ceramic engine on the drawing boards which was to
>> rival sliced bread for greatness. Haven't heard any more about
>> that one. That's OK. Just keep inventing, many out there ideas
>> have been successful.
>> Dave Kulp
>> Bethlehem, PA
>> Do not archive
>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: Charlie England
>> Date:01/25/2015 1:48 PM (GMT-05:00)
>> To: kolb-list@matronics.com <mailto:kolb-list@matronics.com>
>> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine
>> <ceengland7@gmail.com <mailto:ceengland7@gmail.com>>
>>
>> On 1/25/2015 11:18 AM, william sullivan wrote:
>> <williamtsullivan@att.net <mailto:williamtsullivan@att.net>>
>> >
>> > Click on various stuff in this link. My brother sent it to
>> me, thinking I'd be interested. With Rotax dropping the small
>> 2-strokes, there is a need for replacements. The weight to HP
>> ratio looks pretty good. Does anyone have any experience/comments
>> on this one?
>> >
>> > http://www.bourke-engine.com/ani
>> >
>> >
>> I'd suggest finding an independent engineering evaluation. My
>> thoughts:
>> Consider how severe the imbalance will be with both pistons
>> moving the
>> same direction, then how much the counterweight will weigh to
>> counteract
>> that force (without contributing any power). Then consider how
>> long a
>> sliding line-contact sliding bearing is going to last when
>> subjected to
>> those forces. The claim is 1/4 pound (0.25 lb) per hp/hr. This is
>> better
>> by about 30% than the most efficient internal combustion engine ever
>> built, and it's still a 2 stroke engine. Isn't it a bit strange
>> that a
>> design that's been around long enough for the patents to expire,
>> and is
>> super clean, and beats the best tech out there by 30%, hasn't
>> taken over
>> every engine market on the planet? And it uses 'detonation' to
>> extract
>> more energy from the fuel? What happens to a piston when you have
>> detonation in the combustion chamber? (Answer help: nothing good.)
>>
>> Current technology in 4 strokes can come pretty close to the same
>> power/weight ratio as old tech 2 strokes. Just need someone to
>> make them
>> available at an affordable priceolb-List"
>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-Listhttp://www.matronics.com=================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Believe those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it.
>> -Andre Gide
>>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Bourke engine |
Here's one project that should get the attention of Kolb drivers:
http://www.hybridcars.com/mazda-could-produce-mazda2-ev-with-rotary-range-extender/
There's also a repeatedly resurfacing rumor that they will re-introduce
the RX7/RX8 sports car with a 16X rotary engine (the engine is already
developed).
http://www.mazda.com/stories/rotary/16x/
Charlie
On 1/27/2015 10:04 AM, undoctor wrote:
> Good to hear from you, Pat. How are things across the pond? Still
> grounded? I am and I don't like it. Hope to change that early flying
> season.
>
> Sorry I misspelled Wankel. Memory gets fuzzy from years ago.
>
> Herb, I was aware Mazda used the Wankel; do they or anyone still?
>
> Dave Kulp
> Bethlehem, PA
>
> Do not archive
>
>
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Herb
> Date:01/27/2015 8:29 AM (GMT-05:00)
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine
>
> Pat
>
> If memory serves,I believe, Mazda has solved most of the technical
> problems with the Wankel.
>
> an early problem, from memory, came about when the factory decided
> to use standard auto engine oil to lubricate the apex seals...and side
> seals... That resulted in some necessary oil burning and a build up
> of carbon... One can imagine the debate when engineers suggest that
> low ash two stroke oil be used...?
>
> The power and fuel consumption came from the two stroke design...
> From my memory... Herb
>
>
> On 01/27/2015 05:47 AM, Patrick Ladd wrote:
>> <<Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was
>> introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than
>> reciprocating motion and very few moving parts?>>
>> I had a car with a Wankel engine. A beautiful car with the super
>> smooth non vibrating engine.It would run happily on very low grade
>> petrol but only gave about 25miles to the gallon. Acceleration was
>> nothing to write home about but the non reciprocating design made for
>> super smooth running. As you say the wearing of the ceramic tips of
>> the three point rotor was its downfall. Great pity. I remember that
>> it had a manual gear shift but no clutch pedal. The clutch was
>> operated electrically when you held the knob on the top of the gear
>> stick. So the act of changing gear automatically operated the clutch.
>> It had a device which matched the engine speed to the wheel speed
>> when you changed gear.
>> There were several Wankel aero engines being played with a few years
>> ago but they seem to have fallen by the wayside. Pity, it had such
>> promise.
>> Pat
>> *From:* Richard Girard <mailto:aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Sunday, January 25, 2015 11:05 PM
>> *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com <mailto:kolb-list@matronics.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine
>> Bourke built many examples of his engine for trucks, outboard motors,
>> and aircraft. They all worked, ran for hundreds of hours with little
>> wear to any parts, and produced the advertised horsepower. One of the
>> aircraft engines is in the EAA museum.
>> Like any engine the start up costs going into production would be
>> astronomical and for an aircraft engine then there are certification
>> costs. All for a small diminishing market. Sad to say it won't
>> happen, but that's the way it is.
>> Rick Girard
>> do not archive
>> On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 1:09 PM, undoctor <undoctor@ptd.net
>> <mailto:undoctor@ptd.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was
>> introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than
>> reciprocating motion and very few moving parts?
>> Good idea and it could spin very high revs. Problem is, they
>> can't keep the tips from wearing on the triangular piston, so
>> very limited application in the real world.
>> Also remember a ceramic engine on the drawing boards which was to
>> rival sliced bread for greatness. Haven't heard any more about
>> that one. That's OK. Just keep inventing, many out there ideas
>> have been successful.
>> Dave Kulp
>> Bethlehem, PA
>> Do not archive
>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: Charlie England
>> Date:01/25/2015 1:48 PM (GMT-05:00)
>> To: kolb-list@matronics.com <mailto:kolb-list@matronics.com>
>> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine
>> <ceengland7@gmail.com <mailto:ceengland7@gmail.com>>
>>
>> On 1/25/2015 11:18 AM, william sullivan wrote:
>> <williamtsullivan@att.net <mailto:williamtsullivan@att.net>>
>> >
>> > Click on various stuff in this link. My brother sent it to
>> me, thinking I'd be interested. With Rotax dropping the small
>> 2-strokes, there is a need for replacements. The weight to HP
>> ratio looks pretty good. Does anyone have any experience/comments
>> on this one?
>> >
>> > http://www.bourke-engine.com/ani
>> >
>> >
>> I'd suggest finding an independent engineering evaluation. My
>> thoughts:
>> Consider how severe the imbalance will be with both pistons
>> moving the
>> same direction, then how much the counterweight will weigh to
>> counteract
>> that force (without contributing any power). Then consider how
>> long a
>> sliding line-contact sliding bearing is going to last when
>> subjected to
>> those forces. The claim is 1/4 pound (0.25 lb) per hp/hr. This is
>> better
>> by about 30% than the most efficient internal combustion engine ever
>> built, and it's still a 2 stroke engine. Isn't it a bit strange
>> that a
>> design that's been around long enough for the patents to expire,
>> and is
>> super clean, and beats the best tech out there by 30%, hasn't
>> taken over
>> every engine market on the planet? And it uses 'detonation' to
>> extract
>> more energy from the fuel? What happens to a piston when you have
>> detonation in the combustion chamber? (Answer help: nothing good.)
>>
>> Current technology in 4 strokes can come pretty close to the same
>> power/weight ratio as old tech 2 strokes. Just need someone to
>> make them
>> available at an affordable priceolb-List"
>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-Listhttp://www.matronics.com=================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Believe those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it.
>> -Andre Gide
>>
Message 7
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|
| Subject: | Re: Bourke engine |
Its all coming back to me...I chatted with Tracy some 20 years ago...at
length...for he was all too happy to share his rotary experiences...
and I recall that Mazda fixed the oil problem with new and improved
seals working with other companies in Japan..
Herb
On 01/27/2015 10:16 AM, Charlie England wrote:
> I'm currently installing a Mazda Renesis rotary in an RV-7, and know
> quite a few people that are flying the Renesis and the older 13B/20B
> engines quite successfully.
>
> The engine is a true 4 stroke engine; not 2 stroke. But because of the
> design, each rotor face goes through all 4 'strokes' in one complete
> rotation of the rotor (but the rotor rotates at 1/3 of the rpm of the
> eccentric shaft (crankshaft). Apex seal wear in a Wankel rotary hasn't
> been a problem in over 30 years. Tracy Crook (recently retired from
> building engine controllers and reduction drives) put about 900 hours
> in an RV-4 on a junkyard 13B, and had barely measurable wear on any of
> the seals at tear down (removed to install a Renesis in that
> airframe). Sticking seals due to using crankcase oil to lube the apex
> seals can still be a problem in some Mazda RX7/RX8 cars with some
> maintenance practices (lack of). Racers (and aircraft installers)
> disable the supply from the crankcase, and either add a source of 2
> stroke oil to the apex seal lube pump, or remove the pump and do a
> very light (3/4--1 oz per gallon) 2 stroke oil premix with fuel.
> There's still regular automotive oil in the crankcase. Fuel economy in
> the Mazda rotaries used in aircraft is typically about 10% worse than
> a properly leaned Lycoming. Since most Lyc drivers are afraid to lean
> properly, the real world fuel economy is pretty close to the same as a
> Lyc.
> There are some European sources of smaller Wankel designs (light
> enough and with low enough HP to work on a Kolb) that are coming into
> more common use, but it's rare to see them in the USA. In the 150-250
> HP range, no one's demonstrated another auto conversion engine that's
> as light as the rotary and can stand up to the high duty cycle of a/c
> use. My installation weighs ~320 lbs all-up, prior to adding fluids.
> This is comparable to a Lyc 160 HP installation, but the Renesis is
> easily capable of 190-210 HP in a/c use.
>
> While the Bourke engine may 'work', the performance claims on that web
> site are far outside the bounds of rational thought. It's not just a
> few technical problems to overcome, like apex seal wear in a rotary.
> The claims exceed what's achievable without violating the laws of
> thermodynamics. :-)
>
> Charlie
>
>
> On 1/27/2015 7:29 AM, Herb wrote:
>> Pat
>>
>> If memory serves,I believe, Mazda has solved most of the technical
>> problems with the Wankel.
>>
>> an early problem, from memory, came about when the factory decided
>> to use standard auto engine oil to lubricate the apex seals...and
>> side seals... That resulted in some necessary oil burning and a
>> build up of carbon... One can imagine the debate when engineers
>> suggest that low ash two stroke oil be used...?
>>
>> The power and fuel consumption came from the two stroke design...
>> From my memory... Herb
>>
>>
>> On 01/27/2015 05:47 AM, Patrick Ladd wrote:
>>> <<Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was
>>> introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than
>>> reciprocating motion and very few moving parts?>>
>>> I had a car with a Wankel engine. A beautiful car with the super
>>> smooth non vibrating engine.It would run happily on very low grade
>>> petrol but only gave about 25miles to the gallon. Acceleration was
>>> nothing to write home about but the non reciprocating design made
>>> for super smooth running. As you say the wearing of the ceramic tips
>>> of the three point rotor was its downfall. Great pity. I remember
>>> that it had a manual gear shift but no clutch pedal. The clutch was
>>> operated electrically when you held the knob on the top of the gear
>>> stick. So the act of changing gear automatically operated the
>>> clutch. It had a device which matched the engine speed to the wheel
>>> speed when you changed gear.
>>> There were several Wankel aero engines being played with a few years
>>> ago but they seem to have fallen by the wayside. Pity, it had such
>>> promise.
>>> Pat
>>> *From:* Richard Girard <mailto:aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, January 25, 2015 11:05 PM
>>> *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com <mailto:kolb-list@matronics.com>
>>> *Subject:* Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine
>>> Bourke built many examples of his engine for trucks, outboard
>>> motors, and aircraft. They all worked, ran for hundreds of hours
>>> with little wear to any parts, and produced the advertised
>>> horsepower. One of the aircraft engines is in the EAA museum.
>>> Like any engine the start up costs going into production would be
>>> astronomical and for an aircraft engine then there are certification
>>> costs. All for a small diminishing market. Sad to say it won't
>>> happen, but that's the way it is.
>>> Rick Girard
>>> do not archive
>>> On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 1:09 PM, undoctor <undoctor@ptd.net
>>> <mailto:undoctor@ptd.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine
>>> was introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than
>>> reciprocating motion and very few moving parts?
>>> Good idea and it could spin very high revs. Problem is, they
>>> can't keep the tips from wearing on the triangular piston, so
>>> very limited application in the real world.
>>> Also remember a ceramic engine on the drawing boards which was
>>> to rival sliced bread for greatness. Haven't heard any more
>>> about that one. That's OK. Just keep inventing, many out there
>>> ideas have been successful.
>>> Dave Kulp
>>> Bethlehem, PA
>>> Do not archive
>>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
>>>
>>>
>>> -------- Original message --------
>>> From: Charlie England
>>> Date:01/25/2015 1:48 PM (GMT-05:00)
>>> To: kolb-list@matronics.com <mailto:kolb-list@matronics.com>
>>> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine
>>> <ceengland7@gmail.com <mailto:ceengland7@gmail.com>>
>>>
>>> On 1/25/2015 11:18 AM, william sullivan wrote:
>>> <williamtsullivan@att.net <mailto:williamtsullivan@att.net>>
>>> >
>>> > Click on various stuff in this link. My brother sent it to
>>> me, thinking I'd be interested. With Rotax dropping the small
>>> 2-strokes, there is a need for replacements. The weight to HP
>>> ratio looks pretty good. Does anyone have any
>>> experience/comments on this one?
>>> >
>>> > http://www.bourke-engine.com/ani
>>> >
>>> >
>>> I'd suggest finding an independent engineering evaluation. My
>>> thoughts:
>>> Consider how severe the imbalance will be with both pistons
>>> moving the
>>> same direction, then how much the counterweight will weigh to
>>> counteract
>>> that force (without contributing any power). Then consider how
>>> long a
>>> sliding line-contact sliding bearing is going to last when
>>> subjected to
>>> those forces. The claim is 1/4 pound (0.25 lb) per hp/hr. This
>>> is better
>>> by about 30% than the most efficient internal combustion engine
>>> ever
>>> built, and it's still a 2 stroke engine. Isn't it a bit strange
>>> that a
>>> design that's been around long enough for the patents to expire,
>>> and is
>>> super clean, and beats the best tech out there by 30%, hasn't
>>> taken over
>>> every engine market on the planet? And it uses 'detonation' to
>>> extract
>>> more energy from the fuel? What happens to a piston when you have
>>> detonation in the combustion chamber? (Answer help: nothing good.)
>>>
>>> Current technology in 4 strokes can come pretty close to the same
>>> power/weight ratio as old tech 2 strokes. Just need someone to
>>> make them
>>> available at an affordable priceolb-List"
>>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-Listhttp://www.matronics.com=================
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Believe those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it.
>>> -Andre Gide
>>>
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Bourke engine |
Scott Trask a long time Kolb MKIIIC owner built a RV7A with a Wankel engine
in it. He flew it a few years but changed to a conventional engine. The
Wankel engine builder sent him a engine a year late that didn't run right.
Seems like it had a turbo that didn't work right also. He had the new
engine rebuilt without the turbo and flew it. Seemed like he was
continually fixing broken wires, cracking brackets and such related to a
very high frequency vibration. The plane sounded like it had a screaming
(much louder than normal) two stroke in it. Later with the new engine he
flew it down for a winter visit from the UP of Michigan to Venice Florida
in 7 hours.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 6:47 AM, Patrick Ladd <patrickjladd@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> <<Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was
> introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than reciprocating
> motion and very few moving parts?>>
>
> I had a car with a Wankel engine. A beautiful car with the super smooth
> non vibrating engine.It would run happily on very low grade petrol but only
> gave about 25miles to the gallon. Acceleration was nothing to write home
> about but the non reciprocating design made for super smooth running. As
> you say the wearing of the ceramic tips of the three point rotor was its
> downfall. Great pity. I remember that it had a manual gear shift but no
> clutch pedal. The clutch was operated electrically when you held the knob
> on the top of the gear stick. So the act of changing gear automatically
> operated the clutch. It had a device which matched the engine speed to the
> wheel speed when you changed gear.
> There were several Wankel aero engines being played with a few years ago
> but they seem to have fallen by the wayside. Pity, it had such promise.
>
> Pat
>
> *From:* Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Sunday, January 25, 2015 11:05 PM
> *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine
>
> Bourke built many examples of his engine for trucks, outboard motors,
> and aircraft. They all worked, ran for hundreds of hours with little wear
> to any parts, and produced the advertised horsepower. One of the aircraft
> engines is in the EAA museum.
> Like any engine the start up costs going into production would be
> astronomical and for an aircraft engine then there are certification costs.
> All for a small diminishing market. Sad to say it won't happen, but that's
> the way it is.
>
> Rick Girard
> do not archive
>
> On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 1:09 PM, undoctor <undoctor@ptd.net> wrote:
>
>> Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was
>> introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than reciprocating
>> motion and very few moving parts?
>>
>> Good idea and it could spin very high revs. Problem is, they can't keep
>> the tips from wearing on the triangular piston, so very limited application
>> in the real world.
>>
>> Also remember a ceramic engine on the drawing boards which was to rival
>> sliced bread for greatness. Haven't heard any more about that one. That's
>> OK. Just keep inventing, many out there ideas have been successful.
>>
>> Dave Kulp
>> Bethlehem, PA
>>
>> Do not archive
>>
>>
>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: Charlie England
>> Date:01/25/2015 1:48 PM (GMT-05:00)
>> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine
>>
>>
>> On 1/25/2015 11:18 AM, william sullivan wrote:
>> williamtsullivan@att.net>
>> >
>> > Click on various stuff in this link. My brother sent it to me,
>> thinking I'd be interested. With Rotax dropping the small 2-strokes, there
>> is a need for replacements. The weight to HP ratio looks pretty good.
>> Does anyone have any experience/comments on this one?
>> >
>> > http://www.bourke-engine.com/ani
>> >
>> >
>> I'd suggest finding an independent engineering evaluation. My thoughts:
>> Consider how severe the imbalance will be with both pistons moving the
>> same direction, then how much the counterweight will weigh to counteract
>> that force (without contributing any power). Then consider how long a
>> sliding line-contact sliding bearing is going to last when subjected to
>> those forces. The claim is 1/4 pound (0.25 lb) per hp/hr. This is better
>> by about 30% than the most efficient internal combustion engine ever
>> built, and it's still a 2 stroke engine. Isn't it a bit strange that a
>> design that's been around long enough for the patents to expire, and is
>> super clean, and beats the best tech out there by 30%, hasn't taken over
>> every engine market on the planet? And it uses 'detonation' to extract
>> more energy from the fuel? What happens to a piston when you have
>> detonation in the combustion chamber? (Answer help: nothing good.)
>>
>> Current technology in 4 strokes can come pretty close to the same
>> power/weight ratio as old tech 2 strokes. Just need someone to make them
>> available at an affordable priceolb-List" target="_blank">
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-Listhttp://www.matronics.com
>> =================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
>
> Believe those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it.
> -Andre Gide
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List>">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List>
> href="http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>">http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>">http://www.matronics.com/c <http://www.matronics.com/c>
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
Message 9
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|
I was aware Mazda used the Wankel; do they or anyone still
Hi, Mazda used to market a sporty car called the Spyder. No idea if they
still do so. My days for sports cars are well over although I did
drive/fly (whatever) a hovercraft during the summer. Great fun.
No flying I am afraid. My back finally dictated that I can no longer do
the pulley hauley involved in ground handling, carrying fuel, crawling
around doing DI`s, dragging the plane out of the hangar etc.so the old
girl finally had to go. Have a `flight` in a 737 Simulator booked. That
promises to be fun.Also trying to justify the cost of a ride in a
Spitfire, but it is very steep. The rules have changed here in the last
few months.The only way a Spit flight could be arranged was if you were
a full PPL holder and engaged in conversion or `further training. Now
the authorities have ruled that if you can put the money down you can
fly. I flew a P 51d |Mustang for an hour at Kissimmee many years ago
also T6, and a Jet Provost trainer and various amphibians including one
right down to the water in the Bay of Islands in North Island New
Zealand.. A jet fighter at Marathon down in the Keys and a seaplane
along the Australian coast and touch down in Sydney harbour Not done too
badly , all on a ultralight license but I really would like to get in a
Spit. Heigh Ho .Pat
From: undoctor
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine
Good to hear from you, Pat. How are things across the pond? Still
grounded? I am and I don't like it. Hope to change that early flying
season.
Sorry I misspelled Wankel. Memory gets fuzzy from years ago.
Herb, I was aware Mazda used the Wankel; do they or anyone still?
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
Do not archive
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Herb
Date:01/27/2015 8:29 AM (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine
Pat
If memory serves,I believe, Mazda has solved most of the technical
problems with the Wankel.
an early problem, from memory, came about when the factory decided to
use standard auto engine oil to lubricate the apex seals...and side
seals... That resulted in some necessary oil burning and a build up of
carbon... One can imagine the debate when engineers suggest that low
ash two stroke oil be used...?
The power and fuel consumption came from the two stroke design... From
my memory... Herb
On 01/27/2015 05:47 AM, Patrick Ladd wrote:
<<Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was
introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than reciprocating
motion and very few moving parts?>>
I had a car with a Wankel engine. A beautiful car with the super
smooth non vibrating engine.It would run happily on very low grade
petrol but only gave about 25miles to the gallon. Acceleration was
nothing to write home about but the non reciprocating design made for
super smooth running. As you say the wearing of the ceramic tips of the
three point rotor was its downfall. Great pity. I remember that it had a
manual gear shift but no clutch pedal. The clutch was operated
electrically when you held the knob on the top of the gear stick. So the
act of changing gear automatically operated the clutch. It had a device
which matched the engine speed to the wheel speed when you changed
gear.
There were several Wankel aero engines being played with a few years
ago but they seem to have fallen by the wayside. Pity, it had such
promise.
Pat
From: Richard Girard
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 11:05 PM
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine
Bourke built many examples of his engine for trucks, outboard motors,
and aircraft. They all worked, ran for hundreds of hours with little
wear to any parts, and produced the advertised horsepower. One of the
aircraft engines is in the EAA museum.
Like any engine the start up costs going into production would be
astronomical and for an aircraft engine then there are certification
costs. All for a small diminishing market. Sad to say it won't happen,
but that's the way it is.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 1:09 PM, undoctor <undoctor@ptd.net> wrote:
Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was
introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than reciprocating
motion and very few moving parts?
Good idea and it could spin very high revs. Problem is, they can't
keep the tips from wearing on the triangular piston, so very limited
application in the real world.
Also remember a ceramic engine on the drawing boards which was to
rival sliced bread for greatness. Haven't heard any more about that one.
That's OK. Just keep inventing, many out there ideas have been
successful.
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
Do not archive
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Charlie England
Date:01/25/2015 1:48 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine
<ceengland7@gmail.com>
On 1/25/2015 11:18 AM, william sullivan wrote:
<williamtsullivan@att.net>
>
> Click on various stuff in this link. My brother sent it to me,
thinking I'd be interested. With Rotax dropping the small 2-strokes,
there is a need for replacements. The weight to HP ratio looks pretty
good. Does anyone have any experience/comments on this one?
>
> http://www.bourke-engine.com/ani
>
>
I'd suggest finding an independent engineering evaluation. My
thoughts:
Consider how severe the imbalance will be with both pistons moving
the
same direction, then how much the counterweight will weigh to
counteract
that force (without contributing any power). Then consider how long
a
sliding line-contact sliding bearing is going to last when subjected
to
those forces. The claim is 1/4 pound (0.25 lb) per hp/hr. This is
better
by about 30% than the most efficient internal combustion engine ever
built, and it's still a 2 stroke engine. Isn't it a bit strange that
a
design that's been around long enough for the patents to expire, and
is
super clean, and beats the best tech out there by 30%, hasn't taken
over
every engine market on the planet? And it uses 'detonation' to
extract
more energy from the fuel? What happens to a piston when you have
detonation in the combustion chamber? (Answer help: nothing good.)
Current technology in 4 strokes can come pretty close to the same
power/weight ratio as old tech 2 strokes. Just need someone to make
them
available at an affordable priceolb-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-Listhttp://www.
matronics.com=================
--
Believe those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it.
-Andre Gide
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
=EF=BD~=EF=BD=03
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Bourke engine |
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Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Bourke engine |
His issues are just like the issues that anyone doing a 'one-off' design
is going to encounter. *All* alternative engine installations are by
nature, one-offs, and almost always done by those (including me) who
don't have the training and experience to get it right the first time.
Starting with a turbo (an entire development process on its own) on an
alternative engine as a 1st iteration is begging for failure at best,
with disaster likely. And it's not just alternative engines that face
the problem; pilots are just very good at ignoring the ongoing issues
with 'conventional' power plants. There's the recent thread on this list
about excessive wear on a Rotax oil control lever. Lycs have been
installed in a/c since the beginning of time, and they *still* have
issues with cracking cooling baffles, exhaust systems, carb air cleaner
adapter plates, oil cooler mounts, engine mounts, *CRANKSHAFTS*, etc etc
etc. I know, because I've flown them for over 20 years. But that stuff
is 'normal maintenance' to a Lyc driver.
13B's are really are loud like a 2 stroke, because of the way the
exhaust port snaps open (just like a piston-ported 2 stroke). The newer
Renesis is much quieter due to the re-designed exhaust port. I've got
friends from TX and KY, both flying Renesis engines on RV-7A's, and they
almost sound like turbines. They are quieter than Lycs, with prop noise
is louder than the engine.
Sorry for the double detour from regularly scheduled Kolb programming.
Charlie
On 1/27/2015 10:43 AM, Rick Neilsen wrote:
> Scott Trask a long time Kolb MKIIIC owner built a RV7A with a Wankel
> engine in it. He flew it a few years but changed to a conventional
> engine. The Wankel engine builder sent him a engine a year late that
> didn't run right. Seems like it had a turbo that didn't work right
> also. He had the new engine rebuilt without the turbo and flew it.
> Seemed like he was continually fixing broken wires, cracking brackets
> and such related to a very high frequency vibration. The plane sounded
> like it had a screaming (much louder than normal) two stroke in it.
> Later with the new engine he flew it down for a winter visit from the
> UP of Michigan to Venice Florida in 7 hours.
>
> Rick Neilsen
> Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
>
> On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 6:47 AM, Patrick Ladd
> <patrickjladd@hotmail.com <mailto:patrickjladd@hotmail.com>> wrote:
>
> <<Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine
> was introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than
> reciprocating motion and very few moving parts?>>
> I had a car with a Wankel engine. A beautiful car with the super
> smooth non vibrating engine.It would run happily on very low grade
> petrol but only gave about 25miles to the gallon. Acceleration was
> nothing to write home about but the non reciprocating design made
> for super smooth running. As you say the wearing of the ceramic
> tips of the three point rotor was its downfall. Great pity. I
> remember that it had a manual gear shift but no clutch pedal. The
> clutch was operated electrically when you held the knob on the top
> of the gear stick. So the act of changing gear automatically
> operated the clutch. It had a device which matched the engine
> speed to the wheel speed when you changed gear.
> There were several Wankel aero engines being played with a few
> years ago but they seem to have fallen by the wayside. Pity, it
> had such promise.
> Pat
> *From:* Richard Girard <mailto:aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Sunday, January 25, 2015 11:05 PM
> *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com <mailto:kolb-list@matronics.com>
> *Subject:* Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine
> Bourke built many examples of his engine for trucks, outboard
> motors, and aircraft. They all worked, ran for hundreds of hours
> with little wear to any parts, and produced the advertised
> horsepower. One of the aircraft engines is in the EAA museum.
> Like any engine the start up costs going into production would be
> astronomical and for an aircraft engine then there are
> certification costs. All for a small diminishing market. Sad to
> say it won't happen, but that's the way it is.
> Rick Girard
> do not archive
> On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 1:09 PM, undoctor <undoctor@ptd.net
> <mailto:undoctor@ptd.net>> wrote:
>
> Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine
> was introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than
> reciprocating motion and very few moving parts?
> Good idea and it could spin very high revs. Problem is, they
> can't keep the tips from wearing on the triangular piston, so
> very limited application in the real world.
> Also remember a ceramic engine on the drawing boards which was
> to rival sliced bread for greatness. Haven't heard any more
> about that one. That's OK. Just keep inventing, many out there
> ideas have been successful.
> Dave Kulp
> Bethlehem, PA
> Do not archive
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Charlie England
> Date:01/25/2015 1:48 PM (GMT-05:00)
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com <mailto:kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine
> <ceengland7@gmail.com <mailto:ceengland7@gmail.com>>
>
> On 1/25/2015 11:18 AM, william sullivan wrote:
> <williamtsullivan@att.net <mailto:williamtsullivan@att.net>>
> >
> > Click on various stuff in this link. My brother sent it
> to me, thinking I'd be interested. With Rotax dropping the
> small 2-strokes, there is a need for replacements. The weight
> to HP ratio looks pretty good. Does anyone have any
> experience/comments on this one?
> >
> > http://www.bourke-engine.com/ani
> >
> >
> I'd suggest finding an independent engineering evaluation. My
> thoughts:
> Consider how severe the imbalance will be with both pistons
> moving the
> same direction, then how much the counterweight will weigh to
> counteract
> that force (without contributing any power). Then consider how
> long a
> sliding line-contact sliding bearing is going to last when
> subjected to
> those forces. The claim is 1/4 pound (0.25 lb) per hp/hr. This
> is better
> by about 30% than the most efficient internal combustion
> engine ever
> built, and it's still a 2 stroke engine. Isn't it a bit
> strange that a
> design that's been around long enough for the patents to
> expire, and is
> super clean, and beats the best tech out there by 30%, hasn't
> taken over
> every engine market on the planet? And it uses 'detonation'
> to extract
> more energy from the fuel? What happens to a piston when you have
> detonation in the combustion chamber? (Answer help: nothing good.)
>
> Current technology in 4 strokes can come pretty close to the same
> power/weight ratio as old tech 2 strokes. Just need someone to
> make them
> available at an affordable priceolb-List"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-Listhttp://www.matronics.com=================
>
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Think Mazda used the rotary in the RX models
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jan 27, 2015, at 12:31 PM, undoctor <undoctor@ptd.net> wrote:
>
> May have said good bye to the Old Girl, but you still have an aviation att
itude, Pat.
>
> All the best.
>
>
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Patrick Ladd
> Date:01/27/2015 11:57 AM (GMT-05:00)
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kolb-List: Wankel
>
> I was aware Mazda used the Wankel; do they or anyone still
>
> Hi, Mazda used to market a sporty car called the Spyder. No idea if they s
till do so. My days for sports cars are well over although I did drive/fly (
whatever) a hovercraft during the summer. Great fun.
> No flying I am afraid. My back finally dictated that I can no longer do th
e pulley hauley involved in ground handling, carrying fuel, crawling around d
oing DI`s, dragging the plane out of the hangar etc.so the old girl finally h
ad to go. Have a `flight` in a 737 Simulator booked. That promises to be fu
n.Also trying to justify the cost of a ride in a Spitfire, but it is very st
eep. The rules have changed here in the last few months.The only way a Spit f
light could be arranged was if you were a full PPL holder and engaged in con
version or `further training. Now the authorities have ruled that if you can
put the money down you can fly. I flew a P 51d |Mustang for an hour at Kiss
immee many years ago also T6, and a Jet Provost trainer and various amphibi
ans including one right down to the water in the Bay of Islands in North Isl
and New Zealand.. A jet fighter at Marathon down in the Keys and a seaplane a
long the Australian coast and touch down in Sydney harbour Not done too badl
y , all on a ultralight license but I really would like to get in a Spit. H
eigh Ho .Pat
>
> From: undoctor
> Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 4:04 PM
> To: Herb ; kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine
>
> Good to hear from you, Pat. How are things across the pond? Still grounde
d? I am and I don't like it. Hope to change that early flying season.
>
> Sorry I misspelled Wankel. Memory gets fuzzy from years ago.
>
> Herb, I was aware Mazda used the Wankel; do they or anyone still?
>
> Dave Kulp
> Bethlehem, PA
>
> Do not archive
>
>
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Herb
> Date:01/27/2015 8:29 AM (GMT-05:00)
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine
>
> Pat
>
> If memory serves,I believe, Mazda has solved most of the technical probl
ems with the Wankel.
>
> an early problem, from memory, came about when the factory decided to us
e standard auto engine oil to lubricate the apex seals...and side seals... T
hat resulted in some necessary oil burning and a build up of carbon... One
can imagine the debate when engineers suggest that low ash two stroke oil b
e used...?
>
> The power and fuel consumption came from the two stroke design... >=46rom
my memory... Herb
>
>
>> On 01/27/2015 05:47 AM, Patrick Ladd wrote:
>> <<Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was intro
duced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than reciprocating motion an
d very few moving parts?>>
>>
>> I had a car with a Wankel engine. A beautiful car with the super smooth n
on vibrating engine.It would run happily on very low grade petrol but only g
ave about 25miles to the gallon. Acceleration was nothing to write home abou
t but the non reciprocating design made for super smooth running. As you say
the wearing of the ceramic tips of the three point rotor was its downfall. G
reat pity. I remember that it had a manual gear shift but no clutch pedal. T
he clutch was operated electrically when you held the knob on the top of the
gear stick. So the act of changing gear automatically operated the clutch. I
t had a device which matched the engine speed to the wheel speed when you c
hanged gear.
>> There were several Wankel aero engines being played with a few years ago b
ut they seem to have fallen by the wayside. Pity, it had such promise.
>>
>> Pat
>>
>> From: Richard Girard
>> Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 11:05 PM
>> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine
>>
>> Bourke built many examples of his engine for trucks, outboard motors, and
aircraft. They all worked, ran for hundreds of hours with little wear to an
y parts, and produced the advertised horsepower. One of the aircraft engines
is in the EAA museum.
>> Like any engine the start up costs going into production would be astrono
mical and for an aircraft engine then there are certification costs. All for
a small diminishing market. Sad to say it won't happen, but that's the way i
t is.
>>
>> Rick Girard
>> do not archive
>>
>>> On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 1:09 PM, undoctor <undoctor@ptd.net> wrote:
>>> Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was introd
uced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than reciprocating motion and
very few moving parts?
>>>
>>> Good idea and it could spin very high revs. Problem is, they can't keep t
he tips from wearing on the triangular piston, so very limited application i
n the real world.
>>>
>>> Also remember a ceramic engine on the drawing boards which was to rival s
liced bread for greatness. Haven't heard any more about that one. That's OK.
Just keep inventing, many out there ideas have been successful.
>>>
>>> Dave Kulp
>>> Bethlehem, PA
>>>
>>> Do not archive
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
>>>
>>>
>>> -------- Original message --------
>>> From: Charlie England
>>> Date:01/25/2015 1:48 PM (GMT-05:00)
>>> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine
>>>
>>>
>>> On 1/25/2015 11:18 AM, william sullivan wrote:
t.net>
>>> >
>>> > Click on various stuff in this link. My brother sent it to me, thi
nking I'd be interested. With Rotax dropping the small 2-strokes, there is a
need for replacements. The weight to HP ratio looks pretty good. Does any
one have any experience/comments on this one?
>>> >
>>> > http://www.bourke-engine.com/ani
>>> >
>>> >
>>> I'd suggest finding an independent engineering evaluation. My thoughts:
>>> Consider how severe the imbalance will be with both pistons moving the
>>> same direction, then how much the counterweight will weigh to counteract
>>> that force (without contributing any power). Then consider how long a
>>> sliding line-contact sliding bearing is going to last when subjected to
>>> those forces. The claim is 1/4 pound (0.25 lb) per hp/hr. This is better
>>> by about 30% than the most efficient internal combustion engine ever
>>> built, and it's still a 2 stroke engine. Isn't it a bit strange that a
>>> design that's been around long enough for the patents to expire, and is
>>> super clean, and beats the best tech out there by 30%, hasn't taken over
>>> every engine market on the planet? And it uses 'detonation' to extract
>>> more energy from the fuel? What happens to a piston when you have
>>> detonation in the combustion chamber? (Answer help: nothing good.)
>>>
>>> Current technology in 4 strokes can come pretty close to the same
>>> power/weight ratio as old tech 2 strokes. Just need someone to make them
>>> available at an affordable priceolb-List" target="_blank">http://www.m
atronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-Listhttp://www.matronics.com=======
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>>
>> Believe those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it.
>> -Andre Gide
>>
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